This is still with 2 months left before release and looking at the Amazon/Best buy figure it looks as if it attracting a lot of the more casual crowd along with the old school MMORPG crowd. Considering a lot of people are waiting until the public open beta to buy I think it is safe to say that Turbine has a genuine hit on their hands here.
"Further more, when some one tells me WoW is the yard stick by which all combat systems should be measured I shudder."
Endemondia , It's not often I get annoyed!
If I take the time to write an honest and hopefully helpful response to a query posted, and I feel I have some information to offer - I would appreciate it if you actually read what I have said!
I did not say WoW's combat was the yardstick to measure quality by. What I said was this:
"(Forgive this comparision but I do feel that WoW is a premier yardstick to measure against in terms of polish, even if you do not like the game)."
Furthermore, I mentioned the quality of WoW's combat only in terms of visual and aural 'feel', not it terms of complexity or thought required. As it stands, LOTRO's combat does not require a great deal of thought, at least at lower and mid levels.
For me, the only MMO that offers any true sense of skill is Planetside, but that's by the by as clearly it is skill rather than character/RPG based.
The rest of your post is also patronising, Endemondia - I mentioned '5 minutes' as an indication of how little I thought of DDO, obviously it was much longer. I have vast experience of MMO titles dating back to UO.
Also, I am a 36 year old father of two. I am neither ignorant, unrefined or simplistic as your yes, snobbish, latter comments suggest.
I would like to see you re-address your comments, as this has been a disappointing introduction to the MMORPG.COM forums for me.
How is this innovative? A business exist to make money. They aren't looking to do any favors. You think they are offering this deal out of the goddeess of their hearts? They are low on funds and need some quick cash. Maybe they are worried about word of mouth.
well as far as the pricing options they are offering, I think they are great. Not saying I will buy this game or not yet though. Thats kinda the problem with betas for me. I have been through all the content this game currently has to offer more times than I care to remember. the More hardcore players will max out within 2 weeks of play then having nothing left but a weak crafting system and PvMP. Even at the highest levels the combat is drab. no matter what character you play you always end up using the same skills in the same sequence over and over. most of the quests take lest time than the travel time to get to them and seems extremely repetative. There are the epic/book quests that keep you moving and somewhat immersed in the story line. now as far as comparing it to wow....I personally hate everything about wow and will not go into my issues with it here. I still beta LoTRO and play it almost daily mostly because of the friends I have made and the great community, not the game.
I am really glad to see the marketing dept at Turbine finally step up. In the past Turbine has not shown any sense of urgency for their games assuming that they would do well. This plan is designed to get it rolling out of the gate. This pre order deal is very smart. It allows fans of the game that were going to get it on launch day regardless an even better deal. For people on the fence it should push them over because you can get the game and pay a $9.99 monthly free vs $14.99 for the time that you decide to play. The lifetime fee is very smart as it gives Turbine alot of upfront money to help pay off the venture capital used to develop the game. Remember Turbine is a private company that does not have to answer to shareholders and with all the revenue being generated, creditors. They should be able to use all this cash to invest in their other games as well.
WE are wondering off the thread now but I appreciate all the information I am getting from those who have been in the beta.
Jared, I am happy you are younger than me and have one more child but it is true ...we are a long way off this thread! If I sound like I am patronising you then forgive me for being older than you - If you feel I misquoted you then your anger and more in depth explanation should make us even. Of course if you come back to D&D any time soon I am always up for a dual! }:) By the way that Planetside sounds interesting. Is it anything like Project Entropia which feels like a first person shooter mmorpg?
I now suspect that Turbine's marketing strategy will have LOTR for the dumbed down masses and the fresh blood to the market (new gamers brought in by the Tolkien franchise) while D&D will be for the more refined gamers. I will probably be accussed of snobbery here, and one man's mutton is another man's lamb, but I get the increasing feeling, even more so when i hear the implementation of the SJ system, that the combat will be weak. I hope I eat my own words when I experience it first hand - and maybe the other elements of the game design will counter balance a combat system weaker than WoW (omg...that takes some doing!)
Interesting. I guess your lamb is my mutton. lol
I don't know much about LOTRO's combat, but comparing it to D & D online, which I did play for a month or two, I would have reached the opposite conclusion. (ie. DDO's combat is for the masses) lol. In my view, having the player's "twitch" (for lack of a better word) skills introduced into the game, it necessarily reduces the RP aspect of the game, because the character's combat skills, not the player, not the players should determine the outcome. The less RP the game is the less refined and mass market it is to me.
(FWIW, While I wasn't a big fan of DDO's combat system, that's not why I left. I didn't like the essentially all instanced nature of the game world. I more interested in sandbox/virtual worlds and DDO seems to be the antithesis of that).
I think the opportunity just to pay a one time fee and never have to worry about changing credit cards or forgetting my "secret code" when I want to take a break is wonderful. Price is right also, same as 13 months of 15 dollars a month, or 8 months of SOE's station pass. I think I will easily get 13 months worth of play out of the game considering all the expansions they are planning.
BTW for those who want to ralk about combat there is a nice thread on that over at the LoTRO forums. No need to derail this one.
I personally think that the world of Tolkien is too beautiful and fascinating to be used for increased combats, the main stress should be on roleplay.
And back to the topic: I personally would probably buy the lifetime subsciption at once if the game wasn't from Turbine. When I think of the fate of Archlord *shudders*... I love the game so far but I don't want to risk that in three months more and more players leave disappointed and the community shrinks so much that I have to leave too. I pretty much think I will preorder but without the lifetime option
How is this innovative? A business exist to make money. They aren't looking to do any favors. You think they are offering this deal out of the goddeess of their hearts? They are low on funds and need some quick cash. Maybe they are worried about word of mouth.
Why pay 200 for 4 months of content?
People paid $179.88 for 12 months of WoW which only had about 3 months of content (explain the players with 5-8 lvl 60s forever).
I don't believe it's a low on cash thing... Turbine (like them or not) has the LOTR license... fans are going to play it because it is LOTR whether it's good or bad (look at the die-hard SWG fans still playing after Sony butchered that).
IMO this lifetime plan was created for the die-hard LOTR fans only. The average MMO-hopping gamer was not targeted for this deal.
Not all game companies can be Blizzard so they have to come up with something unique to reward loyalty.
(BTW, ever calculate Blizzard's revenues? 6 Million people paying $49.99 for the original game and $14.99 per month for over 2 years before the first expansion came? I can't understand how with that revenue there are not 5 expansions by now and guaranteed server stability. Blizzard is the devil and knows they have their gamers addicted... that's why there hasn't been more available for this game. Geez, the first and only expansion saw people hitting the lvl 70 cap in 2 days... Gonna be a long 2 years at lvl 70 until the next expansion...)
WE are wondering off the thread now but I appreciate all the information I am getting from those who have been in the beta. Cool downs are an acceptable way to balance out stronger skills/special attacks etc. Further more, when some one tells me WoW is the yard stick by which all combat systems should be measured I shudder. I quite enjoy WoW but it is using a combat system marginally better than EQ and most Asian imports, less balanced than GW, and lacking any requirement other than to point and click on an enemy and punch keys to create attacks! Combat systems in sci-fi mmorpg require you to target manually while D&D allows you the pleasure of doing this. Further more Wyzun played D&D for five minutes. Surely a metaphor for not too long, so having not experienced a combat system better than WoW I think, like many online gamers, ignorance is bliss . I now suspect that Turbine's marketing strategy will have LOTR for the dumbed down masses and the fresh blood to the market (new gamers brought in by the Tolkien franchise) while D&D will be for the more refined gamers. I will probably be accussed of snobbery here, and one man's mutton is another man's lamb, but I get the increasing feeling, even more so when i hear the implementation of the SJ system, that the combat will be weak. I hope I eat my own words when I experience it first hand - and maybe the other elements of the game design will counter balance a combat system weaker than WoW (omg...that takes some doing!)
Agreed. This is off-topic but I thought I'd respond anyway...
We'll have to agree to disagree on combat systems. I thought DDO had some innovative ideas but introduced player "twitch" skills into the game way too much (over character skills). MMOs (except a few like Planetside) are supposed to be RPGs after all (not FPSs). The player skill in MMO combat should be knowing when to attack, when to defend, and when to switch targets (not how well they can twitch).
I don't think Turbine marketing has any such designations as dumbed-down or mass-market. They have two good licenses (D&D and LotR) and are trying to design and market games around those licenses.
I played DDO from Alpha 0 (Aug 2005 iirc) through launch and kept trying to improve the game. What killed it for me though was not the different mechanics (combat or otherwise) of DDO vs other MMOs. What killed it for me was Turbine making DDO less and less like D&D with every patch - some fairly major changes from PnP D&D were definitely required but they made many unnecessary changes for DDO (having a knowledge of D&D rules should not be a hindrance to playing a game called DDO). I and others tried telling them so during Alpha and Beta but felt like we were ignored. I was not surprised when it was not a huge success (and did not purchase the game). I really wanted to like it (even trying the 14-day trial a few months ago) but could not. If it wasn't supposed to be D&D, maybe I would have liked it better.
More on-topic...
I've been playing LotRo for the last 1-2 months and am much happier with it. I will probably pre-order it but will probably not get the lifetime subscription. I'd rather pay $9.99/mo than bet that LotRO will hold my interest for more than 20 months (the break-even point) as I've played very few MMOs that long (EQ is the only one so far but CoX and EVE may hit that longevity of play for me).
I enjoy the feel and atmosphere of the game. The quests, combat, etc are similar to many other MMOs but they mostly fit the feel I want in a LotR MMO. I tend to judge games by what they are trying to be (licensed IP games need to feel like the IP, general genre, etc) and tend not to compare games across categories too much (other than general mechanics).
The only things I'm not real happy with feel-wise are the Minstrel and Lore-Master classes. The Minstrel could fit with LotRO use of morale rather than health but it feels too offensive (it was the easiest class to blast my way through the early levels). The Lore-Master feels too much like a mage which should not exist - I'm not sure why Turbine felt they had to introduce this class.
Active: D&D Online (alpha,beta,&unlimited)
Retired: Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Auto Assault (beta), CoH/CoV, Dark Age of Camelot, Dungeon Runners, Elder Scrolls Online, Everquest, EVE, Guild Wars, Lord of the Rings Online (beta,live), Pathfinder Online (beta), Rift (beta,live), Secret World (beta,live), Star Wars Old Republic, Vanguard (beta), Warhammer (beta,live), World of Warcraft
I personally think that the world of Tolkien is too beautiful and fascinating to be used for increased combats, the main stress should be on roleplay. And back to the topic: I personally would probably buy the lifetime subsciption at once if the game wasn't from Turbine. When I think of the fate of Archlord *shudders*...
I love the game so far but I don't want to risk that in three months more and more players leave disappointed and the community shrinks so much that I have to leave too. I pretty much think I will preorder but without the lifetime option
The quests do provide alot of role-play feel (and you can add alot more by interacting with other like-minded players).
What does Turbine have to do with Archlord? I agree Archlord was a dud but it was from Codemasters and not Turbine. Turbine screwed up DDO but that is doing much better than Archlord.
I don't foresee players leaving LotRO in 3 months. At least for me, I see the game holding my interests for up to a year (estimate based on amount of content I think there seems to be) - longer if an expansion comes out.
Active: D&D Online (alpha,beta,&unlimited)
Retired: Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Auto Assault (beta), CoH/CoV, Dark Age of Camelot, Dungeon Runners, Elder Scrolls Online, Everquest, EVE, Guild Wars, Lord of the Rings Online (beta,live), Pathfinder Online (beta), Rift (beta,live), Secret World (beta,live), Star Wars Old Republic, Vanguard (beta), Warhammer (beta,live), World of Warcraft
Comments
well it is definitly selling some pre orders
EBgames/ Game Stop #1 http://www.ebgames.com/default.asp?sect=1278
Best Buy #10 http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat99100050041&type=category
Amazon.com it is at # 5 http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/videogames/229575/ref=pd_ts_vg_nav/104-2518171-8849567
This is still with 2 months left before release and looking at the Amazon/Best buy figure it looks as if it attracting a lot of the more casual crowd along with the old school MMORPG crowd. Considering a lot of people are waiting until the public open beta to buy I think it is safe to say that Turbine has a genuine hit on their hands here.
I miss DAoC
"Further more, when some one tells me WoW is the yard stick by which all combat systems should be measured I shudder."
Endemondia , It's not often I get annoyed!
If I take the time to write an honest and hopefully helpful response to a query posted, and I feel I have some information to offer - I would appreciate it if you actually read what I have said!
I did not say WoW's combat was the yardstick to measure quality by. What I said was this:
"(Forgive this comparision but I do feel that WoW is a premier yardstick to measure against in terms of polish, even if you do not like the game)."
Furthermore, I mentioned the quality of WoW's combat only in terms of visual and aural 'feel', not it terms of complexity or thought required. As it stands, LOTRO's combat does not require a great deal of thought, at least at lower and mid levels.
For me, the only MMO that offers any true sense of skill is Planetside, but that's by the by as clearly it is skill rather than character/RPG based.
The rest of your post is also patronising, Endemondia - I mentioned '5 minutes' as an indication of how little I thought of DDO, obviously it was much longer. I have vast experience of MMO titles dating back to UO.
Also, I am a 36 year old father of two. I am neither ignorant, unrefined or simplistic as your yes, snobbish, latter comments suggest.
I would like to see you re-address your comments, as this has been a disappointing introduction to the MMORPG.COM forums for me.
Why pay 200 for 4 months of content?
Interesting. I guess your lamb is my mutton. lol
I don't know much about LOTRO's combat, but comparing it to D & D online, which I did play for a month or two, I would have reached the opposite conclusion. (ie. DDO's combat is for the masses) lol. In my view, having the player's "twitch" (for lack of a better word) skills introduced into the game, it necessarily reduces the RP aspect of the game, because the character's combat skills, not the player, not the players should determine the outcome. The less RP the game is the less refined and mass market it is to me.
(FWIW, While I wasn't a big fan of DDO's combat system, that's not why I left. I didn't like the essentially all instanced nature of the game world. I more interested in sandbox/virtual worlds and DDO seems to be the antithesis of that).
I think the opportunity just to pay a one time fee and never have to worry about changing credit cards or forgetting my "secret code" when I want to take a break is wonderful. Price is right also, same as 13 months of 15 dollars a month, or 8 months of SOE's station pass. I think I will easily get 13 months worth of play out of the game considering all the expansions they are planning.
BTW for those who want to ralk about combat there is a nice thread on that over at the LoTRO forums. No need to derail this one.
I miss DAoC
I personally think that the world of Tolkien is too beautiful and fascinating to be used for increased combats, the main stress should be on roleplay.
And back to the topic: I personally would probably buy the lifetime subsciption at once if the game wasn't from Turbine. When I think of the fate of Archlord *shudders*...
I love the game so far but I don't want to risk that in three months more and more players leave disappointed and the community shrinks so much that I have to leave too. I pretty much think I will preorder but without the lifetime option
I don't believe it's a low on cash thing... Turbine (like them or not) has the LOTR license... fans are going to play it because it is LOTR whether it's good or bad (look at the die-hard SWG fans still playing after Sony butchered that).
IMO this lifetime plan was created for the die-hard LOTR fans only. The average MMO-hopping gamer was not targeted for this deal.
Not all game companies can be Blizzard so they have to come up with something unique to reward loyalty.
(BTW, ever calculate Blizzard's revenues? 6 Million people paying $49.99 for the original game and $14.99 per month for over 2 years before the first expansion came? I can't understand how with that revenue there are not 5 expansions by now and guaranteed server stability. Blizzard is the devil and knows they have their gamers addicted... that's why there hasn't been more available for this game. Geez, the first and only expansion saw people hitting the lvl 70 cap in 2 days... Gonna be a long 2 years at lvl 70 until the next expansion...)
[url=http://www.flickr.com/photos/28371832@N02/2648951313/[/url]
We'll have to agree to disagree on combat systems. I thought DDO had some innovative ideas but introduced player "twitch" skills into the game way too much (over character skills). MMOs (except a few like Planetside) are supposed to be RPGs after all (not FPSs). The player skill in MMO combat should be knowing when to attack, when to defend, and when to switch targets (not how well they can twitch).
I don't think Turbine marketing has any such designations as dumbed-down or mass-market. They have two good licenses (D&D and LotR) and are trying to design and market games around those licenses.
I played DDO from Alpha 0 (Aug 2005 iirc) through launch and kept trying to improve the game. What killed it for me though was not the different mechanics (combat or otherwise) of DDO vs other MMOs. What killed it for me was Turbine making DDO less and less like D&D with every patch - some fairly major changes from PnP D&D were definitely required but they made many unnecessary changes for DDO (having a knowledge of D&D rules should not be a hindrance to playing a game called DDO). I and others tried telling them so during Alpha and Beta but felt like we were ignored. I was not surprised when it was not a huge success (and did not purchase the game). I really wanted to like it (even trying the 14-day trial a few months ago) but could not. If it wasn't supposed to be D&D, maybe I would have liked it better.
More on-topic...
I've been playing LotRo for the last 1-2 months and am much happier with it. I will probably pre-order it but will probably not get the lifetime subscription. I'd rather pay $9.99/mo than bet that LotRO will hold my interest for more than 20 months (the break-even point) as I've played very few MMOs that long (EQ is the only one so far but CoX and EVE may hit that longevity of play for me).
I enjoy the feel and atmosphere of the game. The quests, combat, etc are similar to many other MMOs but they mostly fit the feel I want in a LotR MMO. I tend to judge games by what they are trying to be (licensed IP games need to feel like the IP, general genre, etc) and tend not to compare games across categories too much (other than general mechanics).
The only things I'm not real happy with feel-wise are the Minstrel and Lore-Master classes. The Minstrel could fit with LotRO use of morale rather than health but it feels too offensive (it was the easiest class to blast my way through the early levels). The Lore-Master feels too much like a mage which should not exist - I'm not sure why Turbine felt they had to introduce this class.
Active: D&D Online (alpha,beta,&unlimited)
Retired: Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Auto Assault (beta), CoH/CoV, Dark Age of Camelot, Dungeon Runners, Elder Scrolls Online, Everquest, EVE, Guild Wars, Lord of the Rings Online (beta,live), Pathfinder Online (beta), Rift (beta,live), Secret World (beta,live), Star Wars Old Republic, Vanguard (beta), Warhammer (beta,live), World of Warcraft
What does Turbine have to do with Archlord? I agree Archlord was a dud but it was from Codemasters and not Turbine. Turbine screwed up DDO but that is doing much better than Archlord.
I don't foresee players leaving LotRO in 3 months. At least for me, I see the game holding my interests for up to a year (estimate based on amount of content I think there seems to be) - longer if an expansion comes out.
Active: D&D Online (alpha,beta,&unlimited)
Retired: Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Auto Assault (beta), CoH/CoV, Dark Age of Camelot, Dungeon Runners, Elder Scrolls Online, Everquest, EVE, Guild Wars, Lord of the Rings Online (beta,live), Pathfinder Online (beta), Rift (beta,live), Secret World (beta,live), Star Wars Old Republic, Vanguard (beta), Warhammer (beta,live), World of Warcraft