i hear a lot of people talking about being rightious haters. "we hate because we once loved" or "we hate cause it makes them try harder" think what you want of yourself. but you know a lot of the "THIS GAME BLOWS MY BALLS I R NOT MAX LEVEL WOW IS SO MUCH BETTER LOLZX" makes up for most of the hating comments. what i'd really like to know is what exactly are people thinking of in a 3rd generation MMO?
I'd like to reply to this.
1) Combat
I'd like advances in the combat system. Counters, saves, they're just dumbed down versions of what players have done in the past. Now, instead of timing your skills properly based on the mob's movement, you have an "easy button" that tells you what to use and when to use it. I'm tired of timed swings, fixed delays, and non-target based combat. How can a 3rd gen improve this? Adopt a targeting system similar to the Fallout series. Swing at an enemy's eyes, and you blind them. Break the enemy's arms, and they're unable to use certain skills, etc etc. Give enemies weak points similar to Phantasy Star Universe. These are all adaptations that need to be in the so called "3rd generation" of MMORPG's. They've existed on the single player front for years, and there's no excuse for the laziness and lack of innovation from modern MMO developers.
2) Economies
I'd like to see more player-run, "efficient" economies. Limited resources for limited crafted goods. Territories yielding said resources, which could contribute to factional warfare in a bi-weekly/monthly manner. Boycotts, trade routes, caravans, smugglers, black markets. Complex? Yes. This is a must for some serious advancement in the genre.
3) Races
I've said it in a debate before, but I want new races. I'm sick and tired of Tolkien, and having 5-20 humanoid races which play exactly the same, aside from minor cosmetic differences and skins.
4)The World
I grow weary of "dead" worlds. What I'd REALLY love to see in MMORPG's is actual dev involvement. Have them host events where they raid towns as a giant boss monster. Create some random, unplanned, unexpected festival for the hell of it. Semi-intelligent creatures, that don't wander mindlessly in 5-7 meter circles for hours on end.
That's off the top of my head. That's what I would consider advancement to a new generation of MMORPG's. Find me a dev team who wants to make my game, and I'll show you all pure gaming gold.
I love all those things you mentioned. They sound great. Seriously, they do.
Now, let's see if someone - anyone - can produce a game like that for less than 50 million bucks and less than 10 years. You're talking about stuff that's not beyond what's out there; it's WAY beyond what's out there.
How long was VG in development, and how much did it cost? Answer: a long time for a lot of bucks. I played it, and it's not "better" than WoW or LOTRO (which I've been playing this weekend. Talk about a polished game. But it offers nothing really new either, and in some ways takes a few steps backwards).
The things you would like to see won't be done anytime soon. No one will want to shell out a huge pile of money for a game that's departing too far from the norm. Ans personally, I don't think anyone is capable of creating a game like that, at any cost.
First off if you really want to see venom directed at a game, look no further then WoW, that over-hyped garbage of a game. Hmm. Another WoW hater. But I'm certain that's not clouding your judgement at all ...
Second, the majority of the people spitting out this "venom" are WoW players who feel VG is not the new darling of the gaming world -which it is-and its taking the attention WoW gets. They don't realize all this does is bring more attention and curiosity to those who will then come try out VG. How exactly do you know the majority spewing venom are WoW players? I play WoW right now, and I think VG is basically just another dish of plain vanilla ice cream, except it runs like molasses in January. On the other hand, I'm playing LOTRO this weekend, and I like it a lot. Runs like a dream, and the game is two months from release! So if your theory is correct, shouldn't I be bashing LOTRO?
Thank you all for your replies. I appreciate the generally moderate tone of the thread I made.
I think I've figured out what it is that differentiates me from a lot of the people who despise Vanguard: I never followed the game. I checked out the website from time to time, but it was not a game that I really got myself involved in. I also think it has to do, somewhat, with just my general personality. I was one of the early on-boards (2002) for Realms of Torment/Mourning/Age of Mourning, and although I was entirely disappointed with the outcome, I never pre-ordered the game, so I was never actually burned for anything but some time I'd spent there. So I just went quietly away when the whole thing went down.
I guess it seems like the major things are that I was never invested heavily in Vanguard or Brad's "vision", and I wasn't invested in EverQuest or Star Wars Galaxies or any other SOE game, really.
My first love is Asheron's Call. Because of that, I can't bring myself to hate the other company that people seem just to love to hate: and that's Turbine. I still think they have it in them to make another great game. I just wish they'd get on with it already, but I know how hard it is to take a risk and do something amazing in the gaming industry these days.
As to the community, on Florendyl earlier today I asked a simple question in the shout channel, and I immediately got two very courteous replies with the information I needed and wishings of good luck. Don't know if it's a fluke or not, but so far I can't complain.
I am by no means a Vanguard fanboy. Right now, I'm enjoying playing with a friend of mine. When the fun ends, I'll cancel my subscription and walk quietly away, and wait for the next game that's able to entertain me for a few months. Guess it's just who I am. Hopefully, someday, there will be another game like Asheron's Call and I'll play one game for more than a year.
Thanks again all.
--------
"Give a man a fire, and he is warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life."
i hear a lot of people talking about being rightious haters. "we hate because we once loved" or "we hate cause it makes them try harder" think what you want of yourself. but you know a lot of the "THIS GAME BLOWS MY BALLS I R NOT MAX LEVEL WOW IS SO MUCH BETTER LOLZX" makes up for most of the hating comments. what i'd really like to know is what exactly are people thinking of in a 3rd generation MMO?
I'd like to reply to this.
1) Combat
I'd like advances in the combat system. Counters, saves, they're just dumbed down versions of what players have done in the past. Now, instead of timing your skills properly based on the mob's movement, you have an "easy button" that tells you what to use and when to use it. I'm tired of timed swings, fixed delays, and non-target based combat. How can a 3rd gen improve this? Adopt a targeting system similar to the Fallout series. Swing at an enemy's eyes, and you blind them. Break the enemy's arms, and they're unable to use certain skills, etc etc. Give enemies weak points similar to Phantasy Star Universe. These are all adaptations that need to be in the so called "3rd generation" of MMORPG's. They've existed on the single player front for years, and there's no excuse for the laziness and lack of innovation from modern MMO developers.
2) Economies
I'd like to see more player-run, "efficient" economies. Limited resources for limited crafted goods. Territories yielding said resources, which could contribute to factional warfare in a bi-weekly/monthly manner. Boycotts, trade routes, caravans, smugglers, black markets. Complex? Yes. This is a must for some serious advancement in the genre.
3) Races
I've said it in a debate before, but I want new races. I'm sick and tired of Tolkien, and having 5-20 humanoid races which play exactly the same, aside from minor cosmetic differences and skins.
4)The World
I grow weary of "dead" worlds. What I'd REALLY love to see in MMORPG's is actual dev involvement. Have them host events where they raid towns as a giant boss monster. Create some random, unplanned, unexpected festival for the hell of it. Semi-intelligent creatures, that don't wander mindlessly in 5-7 meter circles for hours on end.
That's off the top of my head. That's what I would consider advancement to a new generation of MMORPG's. Find me a dev team who wants to make my game, and I'll show you all pure gaming gold.
I love all those things you mentioned. They sound great. Seriously, they do.
Now, let's see if someone - anyone - can produce a game like that for less than 50 million bucks and less than 10 years. You're talking about stuff that's not beyond what's out there; it's WAY beyond what's out there.
How long was VG in development, and how much did it cost? Answer: a long time for a lot of bucks. I played it, and it's not "better" than WoW or LOTRO (which I've been playing this weekend. Talk about a polished game. But it offers nothing really new either, and in some ways takes a few steps backwards).
The things you would like to see won't be done anytime soon. No one will want to shell out a huge pile of money for a game that's departing too far from the norm. Ans personally, I don't think anyone is capable of creating a game like that, at any cost. I disagree.
Games like "Imperator" had attempted the combat system, and Fallout 2 is over a decade old. Phantasy Star Universe has the weakness part down as well. These elements already all exist; they just don't exist in a combined form.
The economy feature would work, but the fact is, name me one game, ANY game, that's really tried an extremely innovative approach in the last 5 years. I can't even think of one. All you'd need is a bold developer to venture out towards greener pastures.
The races, yet another thing I believe possible, yet merely things no one wishes to touch. You're telling me it would take 10 more years to give a certain race 4 weapon slots instead of 2? To remove the helmet feature for some races, and replace it with an extra leg piece? I don't buy it. The fact of the matter is that no one has had the fortitude to try it. Yes, balancing would be one HELL of a mission, but to say it's impossible it ridiculous.
And the world, Neverwinter Nights has already done it, at least on a smaller scale.
Nearly all the elements I named would just require some tweaking.
I'd say if someone offered me a talented, motivated dev team, as well as a budget, I'd make it happen.
Hire me Bioware! *coughs*
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Games like "Imperator" had attempted the combat system, and Fallout 2 is over a decade old. Phantasy Star Universe has the weakness part down as well. These elements already all exist; they just don't exist in a combined form.
The economy feature would work, but the fact is, name me one game, ANY game, that's really tried an extremely innovative approach in the last 5 years. I can't even think of one. All you'd need is a bold developer to venture out towards greener pastures.
The races, yet another thing I believe possible, yet merely things no one wishes to touch. You're telling me it would take 10 more years to give a certain race 4 weapon slots instead of 2? To remove the helmet feature for some races, and replace it with an extra leg piece? I don't buy it. The fact of the matter is that no one has had the fortitude to try it. Yes, balancing would be one HELL of a mission, but to say it's impossible it ridiculous.
And the world, Neverwinter Nights has already done it, at least on a smaller scale.
Nearly all the elements I named would just require some tweaking.
I'd say if someone offered me a talented, motivated dev team, as well as a budget, I'd make it happen.
Hire me Bioware! *coughs*
As for an interesting economy, EVE Online had the most innovative economy and crafting system. Yeah its different from your average MMO, but it is a completely different experience overall, not just in the economy sense.
Currently: Playing EVE Online Previous: FFXI, Dragonrealms, sad little stint in WOWland. Awaiting: Fallen Earth, Hero''s Journey, Tabula Rasa, Age of Conan.
i hear a lot of people talking about being rightious haters. "we hate because we once loved" or "we hate cause it makes them try harder" think what you want of yourself. but you know a lot of the "THIS GAME BLOWS MY BALLS I R NOT MAX LEVEL WOW IS SO MUCH BETTER LOLZX" makes up for most of the hating comments. what i'd really like to know is what exactly are people thinking of in a 3rd generation MMO?
I'd like to reply to this.
1) Combat
I'd like advances in the combat system. Counters, saves, they're just dumbed down versions of what players have done in the past. Now, instead of timing your skills properly based on the mob's movement, you have an "easy button" that tells you what to use and when to use it. I'm tired of timed swings, fixed delays, and non-target based combat. How can a 3rd gen improve this? Adopt a targeting system similar to the Fallout series. Swing at an enemy's eyes, and you blind them. Break the enemy's arms, and they're unable to use certain skills, etc etc. Give enemies weak points similar to Phantasy Star Universe. These are all adaptations that need to be in the so called "3rd generation" of MMORPG's. They've existed on the single player front for years, and there's no excuse for the laziness and lack of innovation from modern MMO developers.
2) Economies
I'd like to see more player-run, "efficient" economies. Limited resources for limited crafted goods. Territories yielding said resources, which could contribute to factional warfare in a bi-weekly/monthly manner. Boycotts, trade routes, caravans, smugglers, black markets. Complex? Yes. This is a must for some serious advancement in the genre.
3) Races
I've said it in a debate before, but I want new races. I'm sick and tired of Tolkien, and having 5-20 humanoid races which play exactly the same, aside from minor cosmetic differences and skins.
4)The World
I grow weary of "dead" worlds. What I'd REALLY love to see in MMORPG's is actual dev involvement. Have them host events where they raid towns as a giant boss monster. Create some random, unplanned, unexpected festival for the hell of it. Semi-intelligent creatures, that don't wander mindlessly in 5-7 meter circles for hours on end.
That's off the top of my head. That's what I would consider advancement to a new generation of MMORPG's. Find me a dev team who wants to make my game, and I'll show you all pure gaming gold.
I love all those things you mentioned. They sound great. Seriously, they do.
Now, let's see if someone - anyone - can produce a game like that for less than 50 million bucks and less than 10 years. You're talking about stuff that's not beyond what's out there; it's WAY beyond what's out there.
How long was VG in development, and how much did it cost? Answer: a long time for a lot of bucks. I played it, and it's not "better" than WoW or LOTRO (which I've been playing this weekend. Talk about a polished game. But it offers nothing really new either, and in some ways takes a few steps backwards).
The things you would like to see won't be done anytime soon. No one will want to shell out a huge pile of money for a game that's departing too far from the norm. Ans personally, I don't think anyone is capable of creating a game like that, at any cost.I disagree.
Games like "Imperator" had attempted the combat system, and Fallout 2 is over a decade old. Phantasy Star Universe has the weakness part down as well. These elements already all exist; they just don't exist in a combined form.
The economy feature would work, but the fact is, name me one game, ANY game, that's really tried an extremely innovative approach in the last 5 years. I can't even think of one. All you'd need is a bold developer to venture out towards greener pastures.
The races, yet another thing I believe possible, yet merely things no one wishes to touch. You're telling me it would take 10 more years to give a certain race 4 weapon slots instead of 2? To remove the helmet feature for some races, and replace it with an extra leg piece? I don't buy it. The fact of the matter is that no one has had the fortitude to try it. Yes, balancing would be one HELL of a mission, but to say it's impossible it ridiculous.
And the world, Neverwinter Nights has already done it, at least on a smaller scale.
Nearly all the elements I named would just require some tweaking.
I'd say if someone offered me a talented, motivated dev team, as well as a budget, I'd make it happen.
Hire me Bioware! *coughs*
I agree......
I say screw balance. Why is it that everyone needs to be the same? I swear people think a balance means that in a duel 2 different classes should have the exact same chance to win and Im afraid life just doesnt work that way so why should these games? You choose a race and class based on what you like about their strengths. So play to their strengths then. Dont pick a healer and then complain because a soldier pwned you. Thats how it works your strength is keeping other people alive his is making them dead. That is balance everyone has some strengths and some weaknesses we dont all have to be equal just necessary.
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
i hear a lot of people talking about being rightious haters. "we hate because we once loved" or "we hate cause it makes them try harder" think what you want of yourself. but you know a lot of the "THIS GAME BLOWS MY BALLS I R NOT MAX LEVEL WOW IS SO MUCH BETTER LOLZX" makes up for most of the hating comments. what i'd really like to know is what exactly are people thinking of in a 3rd generation MMO?
I'd like to reply to this.
1) Combat
I'd like advances in the combat system. Counters, saves, they're just dumbed down versions of what players have done in the past. Now, instead of timing your skills properly based on the mob's movement, you have an "easy button" that tells you what to use and when to use it. I'm tired of timed swings, fixed delays, and non-target based combat. How can a 3rd gen improve this? Adopt a targeting system similar to the Fallout series. Swing at an enemy's eyes, and you blind them. Break the enemy's arms, and they're unable to use certain skills, etc etc. Give enemies weak points similar to Phantasy Star Universe. These are all adaptations that need to be in the so called "3rd generation" of MMORPG's. They've existed on the single player front for years, and there's no excuse for the laziness and lack of innovation from modern MMO developers.
2) Economies
I'd like to see more player-run, "efficient" economies. Limited resources for limited crafted goods. Territories yielding said resources, which could contribute to factional warfare in a bi-weekly/monthly manner. Boycotts, trade routes, caravans, smugglers, black markets. Complex? Yes. This is a must for some serious advancement in the genre.
3) Races
I've said it in a debate before, but I want new races. I'm sick and tired of Tolkien, and having 5-20 humanoid races which play exactly the same, aside from minor cosmetic differences and skins.
4)The World
I grow weary of "dead" worlds. What I'd REALLY love to see in MMORPG's is actual dev involvement. Have them host events where they raid towns as a giant boss monster. Create some random, unplanned, unexpected festival for the hell of it. Semi-intelligent creatures, that don't wander mindlessly in 5-7 meter circles for hours on end.
That's off the top of my head. That's what I would consider advancement to a new generation of MMORPG's. Find me a dev team who wants to make my game, and I'll show you all pure gaming gold.
I love all those things you mentioned. They sound great. Seriously, they do.
Now, let's see if someone - anyone - can produce a game like that for less than 50 million bucks and less than 10 years. You're talking about stuff that's not beyond what's out there; it's WAY beyond what's out there.
How long was VG in development, and how much did it cost? Answer: a long time for a lot of bucks. I played it, and it's not "better" than WoW or LOTRO (which I've been playing this weekend. Talk about a polished game. But it offers nothing really new either, and in some ways takes a few steps backwards).
The things you would like to see won't be done anytime soon. No one will want to shell out a huge pile of money for a game that's departing too far from the norm. Ans personally, I don't think anyone is capable of creating a game like that, at any cost.I disagree.
Games like "Imperator" had attempted the combat system, and Fallout 2 is over a decade old. Phantasy Star Universe has the weakness part down as well. These elements already all exist; they just don't exist in a combined form.
The economy feature would work, but the fact is, name me one game, ANY game, that's really tried an extremely innovative approach in the last 5 years. I can't even think of one. All you'd need is a bold developer to venture out towards greener pastures.
The races, yet another thing I believe possible, yet merely things no one wishes to touch. You're telling me it would take 10 more years to give a certain race 4 weapon slots instead of 2? To remove the helmet feature for some races, and replace it with an extra leg piece? I don't buy it. The fact of the matter is that no one has had the fortitude to try it. Yes, balancing would be one HELL of a mission, but to say it's impossible it ridiculous.
And the world, Neverwinter Nights has already done it, at least on a smaller scale.
Nearly all the elements I named would just require some tweaking.
I'd say if someone offered me a talented, motivated dev team, as well as a budget, I'd make it happen.
Hire me Bioware! *coughs*
I agree......
I say screw balance. Why is it that everyone needs to be the same? I swear people think a balance means that in a duel 2 different classes should have the exact same chance to win and Im afraid life just doesnt work that way so why should these games? You choose a race and class based on what you like about their strengths. So play to their strengths then. Dont pick a healer and then complain because a soldier pwned you. Thats how it works your strength is keeping other people alive his is making them dead. That is balance everyone has some strengths and some weaknesses we dont all have to be equal just necessary.
to the thing about balance, that only applies in PVP. if there's no pvp then it's not an issue... of course then people will complain that if they make a healer they can't solo... and the whining goes on and one and on.... see how this works? lol no matter how you try to change or "fix" something it opens up something else to whine about
Bethesda just needs to make Elder Scrolls V an MMO
The Elder Scrolls would be an awsome MMO, probably impossible to pull off, but awsome.
Why does Vanny inspire hatred?
Haters need something to do this time of the year. I really don't know why people are so passionate about flaming it. Go to forums for games you like, its what I do. Of course, I don't sit around dreaming the world cares what I think about video games... Which is the only guess I have as to why people get so pissed off and feel higher than thou art when someone doesn't agree with them. The best is when they try to list reasons, like "ZOMG it has 8 MILLLLL111ION PLAYER$$" or "this game is sooooo easy, YOU NOOB, try something that takes SKILLZZZZ" . Your opinions are not facts. Facts are misleading. Its a game, so who cares. Apparently way too many people with far too much time.
Ban together, brothers and (the few of you) sisters of all games. One day, we can judge our fellow gamers not by the games on their desktop, but by the characters they roleplay. One day, we may talk about the ways to improve the games we play, not simply hate the games of others.
The races, yet another thing I believe possible, yet merely things no one wishes to touch. You're telling me it would take 10 more years to give a certain race 4 weapon slots instead of 2? To remove the helmet feature for some races, and replace it with an extra leg piece? I don't buy it. The fact of the matter is that no one has had the fortitude to try it. Yes, balancing would be one HELL of a mission, but to say it's impossible it ridiculous.
And the world, Neverwinter Nights has already done it, at least on a smaller scale.
Nearly all the elements I named would just require some tweaking.
I'd say if someone offered me a talented, motivated dev team, as well as a budget, I'd make it happen.
Hire me Bioware! *coughs*
Cymdai, you and I are on the same wavelength WRT evolution in races. I have been DYING for the chance to play a Centaur in an MMO...I don't see why someone couldn't imp them with, say, tailpieces and horse armor to make up for the lack of leggings. This is just an example of something I'd like to see.
Or instead of having 2 factions in your typical PvP system, why not have 3? Or how about races where you can choose either "good" or "evil" (again, like Centaurs)?
Yet all of the MMOs have the same boring, slight mods on the same basic races that have been prevalent since Tolkien became big. I dunno, they all kinda bore me at this point...and I don't really care either, because HD-DVD and upgrading all my electronics has done a good job of sucking me away from PC games altogether.
EDIT: You know Cymdai, the more I think about it, the more I wonder if perhaps movies, music, and games aren't being dumbed down for the current generation? I mean technologically speaking, we are able to make things look a lot prettier, etc. etc. But if you look at what kids enjoy now, don't you have to wonder if the bar will *ever* be set higher again? When's the last time a game really hit you hard, like the old GoldBox games, or Baldur's Gate, or the original Civilization?
The races, yet another thing I believe possible, yet merely things no one wishes to touch. You're telling me it would take 10 more years to give a certain race 4 weapon slots instead of 2? To remove the helmet feature for some races, and replace it with an extra leg piece? I don't buy it. The fact of the matter is that no one has had the fortitude to try it. Yes, balancing would be one HELL of a mission, but to say it's impossible it ridiculous.
And the world, Neverwinter Nights has already done it, at least on a smaller scale.
Nearly all the elements I named would just require some tweaking.
I'd say if someone offered me a talented, motivated dev team, as well as a budget, I'd make it happen.
Hire me Bioware! *coughs*
Cymdai, you and I are on the same wavelength WRT evolution in races. I have been DYING for the chance to play a Centaur in an MMO...I don't see why someone couldn't imp them with, say, tailpieces and horse armor to make up for the lack of leggings. This is just an example of something I'd like to see.
Or instead of having 2 factions in your typical PvP system, why not have 3? Or how about races where you can choose either "good" or "evil" (again, like Centaurs)?
Yet all of the MMOs have the same boring, slight mods on the same basic races that have been prevalent since Tolkien became big. I dunno, they all kinda bore me at this point...and I don't really care either, because HD-DVD and upgrading all my electronics has done a good job of sucking me away from PC games altogether.
EDIT: You know Cymdai, the more I think about it, the more I wonder if perhaps movies, music, and games aren't being dumbed down for the current generation? I mean technologically speaking, we are able to make things look a lot prettier, etc. etc. But if you look at what kids enjoy now, don't you have to wonder if the bar will *ever* be set higher again? When's the last time a game really hit you hard, like the old GoldBox games, or Baldur's Gate, or the original Civilization?
I can agree to an extent. Complexity isn't always superior, but I definitely appreciate it when executed properly.
The last game I've played that really, truly blew me out of the water was a console game. Resident Evil 4. Talk about rocking socks...
However, one game I really liked, as it was just...different......the Deus Ex series. Nothing else like it, really.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
i hear a lot of people talking about being rightious haters. "we hate because we once loved" or "we hate cause it makes them try harder" think what you want of yourself. but you know a lot of the "THIS GAME BLOWS MY BALLS I R NOT MAX LEVEL WOW IS SO MUCH BETTER LOLZX" makes up for most of the hating comments. what i'd really like to know is what exactly are people thinking of in a 3rd generation MMO?
I'd like to reply to this.
1) Combat
I'd like advances in the combat system. Counters, saves, they're just dumbed down versions of what players have done in the past. Now, instead of timing your skills properly based on the mob's movement, you have an "easy button" that tells you what to use and when to use it. I'm tired of timed swings, fixed delays, and non-target based combat. How can a 3rd gen improve this? Adopt a targeting system similar to the Fallout series. Swing at an enemy's eyes, and you blind them. Break the enemy's arms, and they're unable to use certain skills, etc etc. Give enemies weak points similar to Phantasy Star Universe. These are all adaptations that need to be in the so called "3rd generation" of MMORPG's. They've existed on the single player front for years, and there's no excuse for the laziness and lack of innovation from modern MMO developers.
2) Economies
I'd like to see more player-run, "efficient" economies. Limited resources for limited crafted goods. Territories yielding said resources, which could contribute to factional warfare in a bi-weekly/monthly manner. Boycotts, trade routes, caravans, smugglers, black markets. Complex? Yes. This is a must for some serious advancement in the genre.
2. Economy in VG is the same old standard stuff, with a few money sinks to keep people as broke as possible, with such things as item degradation. Not real original. A true 3rd generation MMO would have a REAL economy something like what EVE Online has. One real trading, trading ships, trade caravans, that kind of thing. No other MMO has come close to having a real economy, but EQ2, UO and SWG have come closer than most. And VG is far behind any of those in the economy factor. Of all mmo's that exist, EVE is the only one that really approaches having anything like a 3rd gen economic system.
We are not at the point to figure VG economy yet. Playing the game would tell you that. We are not sure of the stuff that the crafters can do. Shops will be runned in VG. Just like good old SWG. So i don't think judging VG economy at the moment is "fair". We should wait until people get houses, open shops and stuff. So trading boats will probably be possible. You can trade items in VG, but not the soulbound ones.
There are many other things that could have been done, instead of spending thousands of hours on that boring and lame diplomacy system, like Medieval style crafting guilds, where similar crafters cooperate, Like the ability to build things like permanent roads, bridges,and tunnels (toll of course). Like setting up real farms and/or ranches to perhaps raise and sell scarce commodities.
There are many other things that could have been done, but apparently was not even under consideration. Brad's Vision (tm) seems to have overridden any really new ideas.
Sorry if you don't have your own MMO devs. Hope it happens to you someday.
Back to my original point: What is it about Vanguard that people feel the need to get so very angry about?
Everyone who played vanguard knows the answer. Everyone who plays or played vanguard had his own moment of anger. Me too :P
Everytime you start to think you are the grand old mmo veteran the game screws you Thats for those who try to play with brain. Those who play with muscles just have a major breakdown from the extreme grind. If you try to approach vanguard at the same speed like you would approach EQ2 or WoW, then the game burns you out very, very fast.
It seems to get better now, but the first weeks there was a very agressive mood ingame. I think thats because some brains had to be reconfigured Those who couldnt reconfigure left...
The 3rd faction are those who just dont accept the quality of the software. I guess many of the quality based haters have bought a D&L pioneer key in the past and now hate everyone who releases bad/unfinished software. Quality and bugs are the only true reasons to dislike the game. I hope Sigil gets it done in time. This is finally one of those games that feels like mmorpg. I guess a lot of readers dont underatand this... jepp.. there was a time where PKs where a problem and not skills, quests, balance and that "modern crap". I guess i am growing old or maybe the younger players really dont know what a mmorpg really was back then.. in the good ole days LOL
All the whining about I lost 1% of a level because of blah blah etc! seems a little premadonna compared to getting killed and dry looted every few hours or so outside of town starting out in UO - lol
Okay, I'm playing Vanguard. I got a buddy key from a friend who bought it, and right now, I intend to buy it as well.
I just can't figure out why this game inspires such bitter hatred amongst the patrons of these forums. Yeah, okay - the formula isn't that much different from Everquest, Everquest 2, Dark Age of Camelot, Asheron's Call 2 or even the apparently-equally hated World of Warcraft.
I have spent at least some time in all the games listed above. From the moment I logged into AC2 during the closed beta, I looked at it and said "Wow, this game plays just like Dark Age of Camelot!" The formula hasn't changed much, but that's pretty much true across the board! Two of the most promising-looking MMORPGs on the horizon are Fallen Earth and Darkfall, but neither one looks like it'll be in our greedy little hands in the next five years.
Right now, I don't expect to see Warhammer breaking the mold either. It's probably going to be the same: auto-attack and throw in a special skill now and then. The big difference will be the major Realm-vs-Realm conflict. Age of Conan will have a new combat system, yes, but will it really 'break the mold'? Or will people just find flaws that they absolutely hate with that combat system and continue to rant and rave about how 'Age of Conan isn't a 3rd-gen game! It's just a 2nd-gen game pretending to be something it's not!'
Everyone seems to be busy hung up on words like '3rd Generation' or 'Revolutionary' or feels SO VERY BETRAYED by Sony Online Entertainment that they'll never touch another game published by them. I just can't wrap my brain around this mindset. (Although, to be fair, I never played SWG -- not being much of a Star Wars fan -- so I wasn't part of that fiasco.)
Why must people spend so much time flaming and ranting about a game they don't like?
Right now, I'm enjoying Vanguard. I've gotten to a place in my MMO playing where I take a game at face value. If I can enjoy it, I'll play it for as long as I continue to ENJOY it. When I no longer do, I'll cancel my account and walk away quietly. The day I cancel, I'm not going to spend the next week ranting and raving about why I quit.
I leave a game because I don't want to play anymore. Same way I played World of Warcraft. I bought it one week after release, and I played it for eight months. Then I stopped, because it wasn't fun anymore.
Back to my original point: What is it about Vanguard that people feel the need to get so very angry about?
-- Edited for clarity. --
good post. agreed 100%
As for you Porfat... That is a small minority of the community and I've have found people like that on every game (Especially people who hand around on various forums)
But from my experience the community in game is MOSTLY very nice...
I'd like advances in the combat system. Counters, saves, they're just dumbed down versions of what players have done in the past. Now, instead of timing your skills properly based on the mob's movement, you have an "easy button" that tells you what to use and when to use it. I'm tired of timed swings, fixed delays, and non-target based combat. How can a 3rd gen improve this? Adopt a targeting system similar to the Fallout series. Swing at an enemy's eyes, and you blind them. Break the enemy's arms, and they're unable to use certain skills, etc etc. Give enemies weak points similar to Phantasy Star Universe. These are all adaptations that need to be in the so called "3rd generation" of MMORPG's. They've existed on the single player front for years, and there's no excuse for the laziness and lack of innovation from modern MMO developers.
2) Economies
I'd like to see more player-run, "efficient" economies. Limited resources for limited crafted goods. Territories yielding said resources, which could contribute to factional warfare in a bi-weekly/monthly manner. Boycotts, trade routes, caravans, smugglers, black markets. Complex? Yes. This is a must for some serious advancement in the genre.
3) Races
I've said it in a debate before, but I want new races. I'm sick and tired of Tolkien, and having 5-20 humanoid races which play exactly the same, aside from minor cosmetic differences and skins.
4)The World
I grow weary of "dead" worlds. What I'd REALLY love to see in MMORPG's is actual dev involvement. Have them host events where they raid towns as a giant boss monster. Create some random, unplanned, unexpected festival for the hell of it. Semi-intelligent creatures, that don't wander mindlessly in 5-7 meter circles for hours on end.
That's off the top of my head. That's what I would consider advancement to a new generation of MMORPG's. Find me a dev team who wants to make my game, and I'll show you all pure gaming gold.
This is also why I think so many dislike the game. McQuaid ran his damned mouth about creating this epic gaming experience, and he ended up producing a re-hash of Everquest. There's literally nothing about it that screams "play me" in my opinion, but with all the hype and promises made, along with the mind-numbingly weak "vision", the bar was set high. When you hear about the first title from the "3rd generation", and you see Vanguard, well, you're left with an empty, disappointed feeling, as well as little expectations for the rest of the titles coming out this year.
That, in my opinion, is why this game inspires such venom. It's one thing to fall short of folk's expectations, it's another to crush their hopes for other titles that are in the same category.
Now this is what loads of people are wanting and expecting out of a 3rd Gen MMO. Well said. Not rehashed EQ with a few minor changes pretending to be a 3rd gen MMO. I especially agree with the combat part; I want full control over how I attack and where I attack it would add so much stratgedy. The combat system in MMOs haven't really evolved out of the boring "auto-attack plus a special combo every now and then" system that encourages sleeping on the keyboard.
I completely agree. While Cymdai apparently has thought out good combat tweaks more than I have, I have given a LOT of thought to the more passive facets of MMOs, some of which he touched upon. IMO, VG attempted to graze the surface of what I'd think would be standard features in a 3G MMO with their implementation of houses, boats, and more advanced crafting -- but that's it, it barely grazed the surface. It (along with every other MMO to date) is by no means revolutionary in terms of flexibility, content, immersion, etc. -- and again I wonder if some of this isn't attributable to kids' attention spans these days. After all, look at what the #1 MMO (and probably #1 PC game period) to date is -- a campy, superficial, arcade-style, repetitive, yet very successful WoW.
So Cymdai's comments are a great start as to what would comprise a 3G MMO...and no game has come close to even touching on those beginning ideas.
I mean c'mon, if a game is going to have faction-based PvP, give us a race or two that can choose which faction it "joins"...this would be no different than a Neutral character picking one side of a racewar.
Give us some different approaches to playable races, like Centaurs or Ogres. (At least Blizz took a step in the right direction with Dranei, albeit a very small and somewhat controversial step.)
How about banks/vaults that actually allow you to invest in other players' businesses, or the ability to set up an interest-yielding account, where the APY would vary based on the decisions of a global/factional Fed? Not everyone would have to participate in such an endeavor, but how about providing the option?
The possibilities are limitless, and I'm talking about possibilities that could be imped with TODAY's technology. VG took 5 frigging years to create, and I can't help but gasp at what could have been accomplished in 5 years with a solid business model.
First of all I hate anything connected with SOE so that is enough right there but this game has garnered special attention from me because of the massive amount of arrogance of its creators. They had five years and forty million dollars and *this* is the best they could do? The game looks like crap and aside from a handful of rabid fanboys people just aren't impressed.
First of all I hate anything connected with SOE so that is enough right there but this game has garnered special attention from me because of the massive amount of arrogance of its creators. They had five years and forty million dollars and *this* is the best they could do? The game looks like crap and aside from a handful of rabid fanboys people just aren't impressed.
Wow, did it really cost $40mil? Not that I doubt you, but...well...could you post a link? Rocky Balboa and Borat were produced for $43mil COMBINED...that would be a questionable business model (to say the least) if a game cost $40 mil and wasn't a superstar.
The simple reality is that many people on these forums are jaded with MMOs in general. Vanguard has too many bugs and a significant lack of polish, but it is far from unplayable. Personally, I am liking Vanguard more than any other MMO I have played in the last few years.
Hater #12341: "The combat is boring!"
I like the combat. The Haters that say combat is "the same as every other MMO" or "you just push auto-attack" clearly do not understand the game at all. You've got Counters to watch for, Finishing Moves and Weaknesses. The later is one of the more unique elements. Proper use of Weaknesses can make a HUGE difference and is going to be the defining factor between a good group and a great group. Personally, I think this is one reason why the Haters beat on Vanguard so much, that is, it is too complex for them.
Hater #513212: "The quests are all kill X number of mobs and delivery!"
When a Hater uses this one, I laugh out loud. Sure, there are Kill X quests just like in every MMO on the planet. However, I'm only level 14 and I have already done a TON of quests that were very unique. I've played a lot of MMOs and Vanguard has some great quest design. As for the delivery quests, Vanguard uses them in a very specific manner that is quite innovative if you ask me. Most of the delivery quests are designed to take you to the next area of progression. Once I was done with the quests in Tursh, I was given a delivery quest to go to Three Rivers, where a whole new set of quests waited for me.
Hater #51212442: "The game is full of bugs!"
Yes, it is. This complaint is very valid. The number of bugs and performance issues are unacceptable. Again, however, they are not game-breaking.
Again, these jaded players on this forum are going to find things they hate with every single MMO. Some they will hate more than others, but these people are tired of MMOs, they just don't realize it yet. They seem to think that the "next" MMO will be the one they fall in love with, but once they play it, they will hate it and make claims like: "This game has boring combat!" and "The quests are Kill X and delivery!" It will never end.
Combat: I don't say it's boring ...well close to boring, but it's not innovative either! And the combat effects are seriously poor realy. WoW and EQ2 tops combat effects and moves with ease compared to Vanguard.
Quest System: You are in denial my friend. Did you realy play any other MMO´s at all? Seriously... the questing system within Vanguard isn't any different then within for example WoW. When you done with quests in the starter area you will get a deliver quest in the next, and so on. So far pretty much the exact same. So nothing innovative here.
Game full of bugs: Seriously? Nothing gamebreaking? You must be one of the few exeptional lucky ones! As I call level / EXP loss after relogging pretty game breaking friend! It happened 2 times to me and got realy fed up with it seeing hours of investement going through the drain! World graphic glitches getting you stuck and with mobs keeps you dying over and over and with bad luck you lose even a couple of levels debt XP due to the too heavy death penalty! And when you read the game issues forum you can read that there are a lot of players experiencing these serious issues!
I can't comprehent with so many bugs and glitches in the game that they didn't temporarely lower the debt XP penalty or even dissable the Debt XP penalty at all till they sorted out most of these bugs! And then not to speak that even on a high end system you have to downgrade the graphic settings a lot to be able to get some decent performance lol.
And here I just name a few! People who fail to see this clearly didn't play any other MMO before (at least not a decent one) to see Vanguard is a third rank MMO still in Beta state! Even the devs have admitted the game isn't ready yet, but still the fanboys do what ever it cost to piss off people here saying how awesome and how finished and ready this game is and call critics here losers who need to seek some mental help! Seriously ..you fanboys who live in such denial torching down the critics are the ones who need to seek mental help
And yes we critics have the right to be pissed! We wasted $50 dollars on a unfinished third rank product! As for some $50 dollars might not seem much, but for some people who don't have the best job in the world it is a lot! So I fully understand those who feel cheated and are very angry about it! As SOE are greedy bastards who still deny any form of refunding!
i hear a lot of people talking about being rightious haters. "we hate because we once loved" or "we hate cause it makes them try harder" think what you want of yourself. but you know a lot of the "THIS GAME BLOWS MY BALLS I R NOT MAX LEVEL WOW IS SO MUCH BETTER LOLZX" makes up for most of the hating comments. what i'd really like to know is what exactly are people thinking of in a 3rd generation MMO?
I'd like to reply to this.
1) Combat
I'd like advances in the combat system. Counters, saves, they're just dumbed down versions of what players have done in the past. Now, instead of timing your skills properly based on the mob's movement, you have an "easy button" that tells you what to use and when to use it. I'm tired of timed swings, fixed delays, and non-target based combat. How can a 3rd gen improve this? Adopt a targeting system similar to the Fallout series. Swing at an enemy's eyes, and you blind them. Break the enemy's arms, and they're unable to use certain skills, etc etc. Give enemies weak points similar to Phantasy Star Universe. These are all adaptations that need to be in the so called "3rd generation" of MMORPG's. They've existed on the single player front for years, and there's no excuse for the laziness and lack of innovation from modern MMO developers.
2) Economies
I'd like to see more player-run, "efficient" economies. Limited resources for limited crafted goods. Territories yielding said resources, which could contribute to factional warfare in a bi-weekly/monthly manner. Boycotts, trade routes, caravans, smugglers, black markets. Complex? Yes. This is a must for some serious advancement in the genre.
3) Races
I've said it in a debate before, but I want new races. I'm sick and tired of Tolkien, and having 5-20 humanoid races which play exactly the same, aside from minor cosmetic differences and skins.
4)The World
I grow weary of "dead" worlds. What I'd REALLY love to see in MMORPG's is actual dev involvement. Have them host events where they raid towns as a giant boss monster. Create some random, unplanned, unexpected festival for the hell of it. Semi-intelligent creatures, that don't wander mindlessly in 5-7 meter circles for hours on end.
That's off the top of my head. That's what I would consider advancement to a new generation of MMORPG's. Find me a dev team who wants to make my game, and I'll show you all pure gaming gold.
This is also why I think so many dislike the game. McQuaid ran his damned mouth about creating this epic gaming experience, and he ended up producing a re-hash of Everquest. There's literally nothing about it that screams "play me" in my opinion, but with all the hype and promises made, along with the mind-numbingly weak "vision", the bar was set high. When you hear about the first title from the "3rd generation", and you see Vanguard, well, you're left with an empty, disappointed feeling, as well as little expectations for the rest of the titles coming out this year.
That, in my opinion, is why this game inspires such venom. It's one thing to fall short of folk's expectations, it's another to crush their hopes for other titles that are in the same category.
Vanguard inspires venom because of SOE's involvement. People will swear up and down about how they have played it and it's uninspired blah blah blah... B.S. it's because tons of people hate SOE for what they did to SWG (and whatever other game they pick) and they can't get over it.
And saying Vanguard is a rehash of EQ is just showing how truly little you know about the game itself. You don't like the game, we get it. Your opinion is worth nothing more than any other account on this site. For a staff writer you sure do have a bug up your rug for this game.
What causes so much hate in some people is the more vocal fans, and this is my proof. A guy says it's about 3rd generation and what he thinks that should be and some obsessive starts spouting about soe (despite not once being mentioned originally), suggests the poster is lying and then writes off his opinion as useless. This is why I will NEVER play this game under any circumstance, because a mmorpg is as much about the community as it is about the game itself. Does it matter what the actual game is like if I have to deal with this stupid crap everytime I play?
I hope this game lasts forever so you can all rot in it and stay out of everything else.
The answer to the original poster's question is obvious - much was promised that hasn't been delivered.
Vanguard was hyped a lot. They promised a lot. They delivered a pretty average game with a lot... of bugs. I honestly believe the developers have great vision and with more time they'll turn this into an awesome game. But right now...
The fact that the MMO market has been so quiet since the launch of WoW is also likely contributing to the venom. People get bored with old things and want new things. There hasn't been anything new (and really good) in the MMO world recently. Then along comes Vanguard with its promises of 3rd gen and an array of awesome features that could make the seriously hungry MMO'er drool.
Take a hungry and starving MMO'er who has been promised a virtual gourmet buffet, and instead plonk down a slice of suspicious smelling meatloaf in front of them.
Comments
1) Combat
I'd like advances in the combat system. Counters, saves, they're just dumbed down versions of what players have done in the past. Now, instead of timing your skills properly based on the mob's movement, you have an "easy button" that tells you what to use and when to use it. I'm tired of timed swings, fixed delays, and non-target based combat. How can a 3rd gen improve this? Adopt a targeting system similar to the Fallout series. Swing at an enemy's eyes, and you blind them. Break the enemy's arms, and they're unable to use certain skills, etc etc. Give enemies weak points similar to Phantasy Star Universe. These are all adaptations that need to be in the so called "3rd generation" of MMORPG's. They've existed on the single player front for years, and there's no excuse for the laziness and lack of innovation from modern MMO developers.
2) Economies
I'd like to see more player-run, "efficient" economies. Limited resources for limited crafted goods. Territories yielding said resources, which could contribute to factional warfare in a bi-weekly/monthly manner. Boycotts, trade routes, caravans, smugglers, black markets. Complex? Yes. This is a must for some serious advancement in the genre.
3) Races
I've said it in a debate before, but I want new races. I'm sick and tired of Tolkien, and having 5-20 humanoid races which play exactly the same, aside from minor cosmetic differences and skins.
4) The World
I grow weary of "dead" worlds. What I'd REALLY love to see in MMORPG's is actual dev involvement. Have them host events where they raid towns as a giant boss monster. Create some random, unplanned, unexpected festival for the hell of it. Semi-intelligent creatures, that don't wander mindlessly in 5-7 meter circles for hours on end.
That's off the top of my head. That's what I would consider advancement to a new generation of MMORPG's. Find me a dev team who wants to make my game, and I'll show you all pure gaming gold.
I love all those things you mentioned. They sound great. Seriously, they do.
Now, let's see if someone - anyone - can produce a game like that for less than 50 million bucks and less than 10 years. You're talking about stuff that's not beyond what's out there; it's WAY beyond what's out there.
How long was VG in development, and how much did it cost? Answer: a long time for a lot of bucks. I played it, and it's not "better" than WoW or LOTRO (which I've been playing this weekend. Talk about a polished game. But it offers nothing really new either, and in some ways takes a few steps backwards).
The things you would like to see won't be done anytime soon. No one will want to shell out a huge pile of money for a game that's departing too far from the norm. Ans personally, I don't think anyone is capable of creating a game like that, at any cost.
Or the people NOT playing it. Your right though. Things have gotten pretty personal. Glad we all play these games to relax
Never be afraid of choices. More choices are always good things.
I think I've figured out what it is that differentiates me from a lot of the people who despise Vanguard: I never followed the game. I checked out the website from time to time, but it was not a game that I really got myself involved in. I also think it has to do, somewhat, with just my general personality. I was one of the early on-boards (2002) for Realms of Torment/Mourning/Age of Mourning, and although I was entirely disappointed with the outcome, I never pre-ordered the game, so I was never actually burned for anything but some time I'd spent there. So I just went quietly away when the whole thing went down.
I guess it seems like the major things are that I was never invested heavily in Vanguard or Brad's "vision", and I wasn't invested in EverQuest or Star Wars Galaxies or any other SOE game, really.
My first love is Asheron's Call. Because of that, I can't bring myself to hate the other company that people seem just to love to hate: and that's Turbine. I still think they have it in them to make another great game. I just wish they'd get on with it already, but I know how hard it is to take a risk and do something amazing in the gaming industry these days.
As to the community, on Florendyl earlier today I asked a simple question in the shout channel, and I immediately got two very courteous replies with the information I needed and wishings of good luck. Don't know if it's a fluke or not, but so far I can't complain.
I am by no means a Vanguard fanboy. Right now, I'm enjoying playing with a friend of mine. When the fun ends, I'll cancel my subscription and walk quietly away, and wait for the next game that's able to entertain me for a few months. Guess it's just who I am. Hopefully, someday, there will be another game like Asheron's Call and I'll play one game for more than a year.
Thanks again all.
--------
"Give a man a fire, and he is warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he is warm for the rest of his life."
1) Combat
I'd like advances in the combat system. Counters, saves, they're just dumbed down versions of what players have done in the past. Now, instead of timing your skills properly based on the mob's movement, you have an "easy button" that tells you what to use and when to use it. I'm tired of timed swings, fixed delays, and non-target based combat. How can a 3rd gen improve this? Adopt a targeting system similar to the Fallout series. Swing at an enemy's eyes, and you blind them. Break the enemy's arms, and they're unable to use certain skills, etc etc. Give enemies weak points similar to Phantasy Star Universe. These are all adaptations that need to be in the so called "3rd generation" of MMORPG's. They've existed on the single player front for years, and there's no excuse for the laziness and lack of innovation from modern MMO developers.
2) Economies
I'd like to see more player-run, "efficient" economies. Limited resources for limited crafted goods. Territories yielding said resources, which could contribute to factional warfare in a bi-weekly/monthly manner. Boycotts, trade routes, caravans, smugglers, black markets. Complex? Yes. This is a must for some serious advancement in the genre.
3) Races
I've said it in a debate before, but I want new races. I'm sick and tired of Tolkien, and having 5-20 humanoid races which play exactly the same, aside from minor cosmetic differences and skins.
4) The World
I grow weary of "dead" worlds. What I'd REALLY love to see in MMORPG's is actual dev involvement. Have them host events where they raid towns as a giant boss monster. Create some random, unplanned, unexpected festival for the hell of it. Semi-intelligent creatures, that don't wander mindlessly in 5-7 meter circles for hours on end.
That's off the top of my head. That's what I would consider advancement to a new generation of MMORPG's. Find me a dev team who wants to make my game, and I'll show you all pure gaming gold.
I love all those things you mentioned. They sound great. Seriously, they do.
Now, let's see if someone - anyone - can produce a game like that for less than 50 million bucks and less than 10 years. You're talking about stuff that's not beyond what's out there; it's WAY beyond what's out there.
How long was VG in development, and how much did it cost? Answer: a long time for a lot of bucks. I played it, and it's not "better" than WoW or LOTRO (which I've been playing this weekend. Talk about a polished game. But it offers nothing really new either, and in some ways takes a few steps backwards).
The things you would like to see won't be done anytime soon. No one will want to shell out a huge pile of money for a game that's departing too far from the norm. Ans personally, I don't think anyone is capable of creating a game like that, at any cost. I disagree.
Games like "Imperator" had attempted the combat system, and Fallout 2 is over a decade old. Phantasy Star Universe has the weakness part down as well. These elements already all exist; they just don't exist in a combined form.
The economy feature would work, but the fact is, name me one game, ANY game, that's really tried an extremely innovative approach in the last 5 years. I can't even think of one. All you'd need is a bold developer to venture out towards greener pastures.
The races, yet another thing I believe possible, yet merely things no one wishes to touch. You're telling me it would take 10 more years to give a certain race 4 weapon slots instead of 2? To remove the helmet feature for some races, and replace it with an extra leg piece? I don't buy it. The fact of the matter is that no one has had the fortitude to try it. Yes, balancing would be one HELL of a mission, but to say it's impossible it ridiculous.
And the world, Neverwinter Nights has already done it, at least on a smaller scale.
Nearly all the elements I named would just require some tweaking.
I'd say if someone offered me a talented, motivated dev team, as well as a budget, I'd make it happen.
Hire me Bioware! *coughs*
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Currently: Playing EVE Online
Previous: FFXI, Dragonrealms, sad little stint in WOWland.
Awaiting: Fallen Earth, Hero''s Journey, Tabula Rasa, Age of Conan.
1) Combat
I'd like advances in the combat system. Counters, saves, they're just dumbed down versions of what players have done in the past. Now, instead of timing your skills properly based on the mob's movement, you have an "easy button" that tells you what to use and when to use it. I'm tired of timed swings, fixed delays, and non-target based combat. How can a 3rd gen improve this? Adopt a targeting system similar to the Fallout series. Swing at an enemy's eyes, and you blind them. Break the enemy's arms, and they're unable to use certain skills, etc etc. Give enemies weak points similar to Phantasy Star Universe. These are all adaptations that need to be in the so called "3rd generation" of MMORPG's. They've existed on the single player front for years, and there's no excuse for the laziness and lack of innovation from modern MMO developers.
2) Economies
I'd like to see more player-run, "efficient" economies. Limited resources for limited crafted goods. Territories yielding said resources, which could contribute to factional warfare in a bi-weekly/monthly manner. Boycotts, trade routes, caravans, smugglers, black markets. Complex? Yes. This is a must for some serious advancement in the genre.
3) Races
I've said it in a debate before, but I want new races. I'm sick and tired of Tolkien, and having 5-20 humanoid races which play exactly the same, aside from minor cosmetic differences and skins.
4) The World
I grow weary of "dead" worlds. What I'd REALLY love to see in MMORPG's is actual dev involvement. Have them host events where they raid towns as a giant boss monster. Create some random, unplanned, unexpected festival for the hell of it. Semi-intelligent creatures, that don't wander mindlessly in 5-7 meter circles for hours on end.
That's off the top of my head. That's what I would consider advancement to a new generation of MMORPG's. Find me a dev team who wants to make my game, and I'll show you all pure gaming gold.
I love all those things you mentioned. They sound great. Seriously, they do.
Now, let's see if someone - anyone - can produce a game like that for less than 50 million bucks and less than 10 years. You're talking about stuff that's not beyond what's out there; it's WAY beyond what's out there.
How long was VG in development, and how much did it cost? Answer: a long time for a lot of bucks. I played it, and it's not "better" than WoW or LOTRO (which I've been playing this weekend. Talk about a polished game. But it offers nothing really new either, and in some ways takes a few steps backwards).
The things you would like to see won't be done anytime soon. No one will want to shell out a huge pile of money for a game that's departing too far from the norm. Ans personally, I don't think anyone is capable of creating a game like that, at any cost.I disagree.
Games like "Imperator" had attempted the combat system, and Fallout 2 is over a decade old. Phantasy Star Universe has the weakness part down as well. These elements already all exist; they just don't exist in a combined form.
The economy feature would work, but the fact is, name me one game, ANY game, that's really tried an extremely innovative approach in the last 5 years. I can't even think of one. All you'd need is a bold developer to venture out towards greener pastures.
The races, yet another thing I believe possible, yet merely things no one wishes to touch. You're telling me it would take 10 more years to give a certain race 4 weapon slots instead of 2? To remove the helmet feature for some races, and replace it with an extra leg piece? I don't buy it. The fact of the matter is that no one has had the fortitude to try it. Yes, balancing would be one HELL of a mission, but to say it's impossible it ridiculous.
And the world, Neverwinter Nights has already done it, at least on a smaller scale.
Nearly all the elements I named would just require some tweaking.
I'd say if someone offered me a talented, motivated dev team, as well as a budget, I'd make it happen.
Hire me Bioware! *coughs*
I agree......
I say screw balance. Why is it that everyone needs to be the same? I swear people think a balance means that in a duel 2 different classes should have the exact same chance to win and Im afraid life just doesnt work that way so why should these games? You choose a race and class based on what you like about their strengths. So play to their strengths then. Dont pick a healer and then complain because a soldier pwned you. Thats how it works your strength is keeping other people alive his is making them dead. That is balance everyone has some strengths and some weaknesses we dont all have to be equal just necessary.
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
1) Combat
I'd like advances in the combat system. Counters, saves, they're just dumbed down versions of what players have done in the past. Now, instead of timing your skills properly based on the mob's movement, you have an "easy button" that tells you what to use and when to use it. I'm tired of timed swings, fixed delays, and non-target based combat. How can a 3rd gen improve this? Adopt a targeting system similar to the Fallout series. Swing at an enemy's eyes, and you blind them. Break the enemy's arms, and they're unable to use certain skills, etc etc. Give enemies weak points similar to Phantasy Star Universe. These are all adaptations that need to be in the so called "3rd generation" of MMORPG's. They've existed on the single player front for years, and there's no excuse for the laziness and lack of innovation from modern MMO developers.
2) Economies
I'd like to see more player-run, "efficient" economies. Limited resources for limited crafted goods. Territories yielding said resources, which could contribute to factional warfare in a bi-weekly/monthly manner. Boycotts, trade routes, caravans, smugglers, black markets. Complex? Yes. This is a must for some serious advancement in the genre.
3) Races
I've said it in a debate before, but I want new races. I'm sick and tired of Tolkien, and having 5-20 humanoid races which play exactly the same, aside from minor cosmetic differences and skins.
4) The World
I grow weary of "dead" worlds. What I'd REALLY love to see in MMORPG's is actual dev involvement. Have them host events where they raid towns as a giant boss monster. Create some random, unplanned, unexpected festival for the hell of it. Semi-intelligent creatures, that don't wander mindlessly in 5-7 meter circles for hours on end.
That's off the top of my head. That's what I would consider advancement to a new generation of MMORPG's. Find me a dev team who wants to make my game, and I'll show you all pure gaming gold.
I love all those things you mentioned. They sound great. Seriously, they do.
Now, let's see if someone - anyone - can produce a game like that for less than 50 million bucks and less than 10 years. You're talking about stuff that's not beyond what's out there; it's WAY beyond what's out there.
How long was VG in development, and how much did it cost? Answer: a long time for a lot of bucks. I played it, and it's not "better" than WoW or LOTRO (which I've been playing this weekend. Talk about a polished game. But it offers nothing really new either, and in some ways takes a few steps backwards).
The things you would like to see won't be done anytime soon. No one will want to shell out a huge pile of money for a game that's departing too far from the norm. Ans personally, I don't think anyone is capable of creating a game like that, at any cost.I disagree.
Games like "Imperator" had attempted the combat system, and Fallout 2 is over a decade old. Phantasy Star Universe has the weakness part down as well. These elements already all exist; they just don't exist in a combined form.
The economy feature would work, but the fact is, name me one game, ANY game, that's really tried an extremely innovative approach in the last 5 years. I can't even think of one. All you'd need is a bold developer to venture out towards greener pastures.
The races, yet another thing I believe possible, yet merely things no one wishes to touch. You're telling me it would take 10 more years to give a certain race 4 weapon slots instead of 2? To remove the helmet feature for some races, and replace it with an extra leg piece? I don't buy it. The fact of the matter is that no one has had the fortitude to try it. Yes, balancing would be one HELL of a mission, but to say it's impossible it ridiculous.
And the world, Neverwinter Nights has already done it, at least on a smaller scale.
Nearly all the elements I named would just require some tweaking.
I'd say if someone offered me a talented, motivated dev team, as well as a budget, I'd make it happen.
Hire me Bioware! *coughs*
I agree......
I say screw balance. Why is it that everyone needs to be the same? I swear people think a balance means that in a duel 2 different classes should have the exact same chance to win and Im afraid life just doesnt work that way so why should these games? You choose a race and class based on what you like about their strengths. So play to their strengths then. Dont pick a healer and then complain because a soldier pwned you. Thats how it works your strength is keeping other people alive his is making them dead. That is balance everyone has some strengths and some weaknesses we dont all have to be equal just necessary.
to the thing about balance, that only applies in PVP. if there's no pvp then it's not an issue... of course then people will complain that if they make a healer they can't solo... and the whining goes on and one and on.... see how this works? lol no matter how you try to change or "fix" something it opens up something else to whine about
Bethesda just needs to make Elder Scrolls V an MMO
The Elder Scrolls would be an awsome MMO, probably impossible to pull off, but awsome.
Why does Vanny inspire hatred?
Haters need something to do this time of the year. I really don't know why people are so passionate about flaming it. Go to forums for games you like, its what I do. Of course, I don't sit around dreaming the world cares what I think about video games... Which is the only guess I have as to why people get so pissed off and feel higher than thou art when someone doesn't agree with them. The best is when they try to list reasons, like "ZOMG it has 8 MILLLLL111ION PLAYER$$" or "this game is sooooo easy, YOU NOOB, try something that takes SKILLZZZZ" . Your opinions are not facts. Facts are misleading. Its a game, so who cares. Apparently way too many people with far too much time.
Ban together, brothers and (the few of you) sisters of all games. One day, we can judge our fellow gamers not by the games on their desktop, but by the characters they roleplay. One day, we may talk about the ways to improve the games we play, not simply hate the games of others.
That did not happen in Eve, why would it happen in other games?
Using that logic, only the people that came to the USA prior to 1700 should be rich.
Cymdai, you and I are on the same wavelength WRT evolution in races. I have been DYING for the chance to play a Centaur in an MMO...I don't see why someone couldn't imp them with, say, tailpieces and horse armor to make up for the lack of leggings. This is just an example of something I'd like to see.
Or instead of having 2 factions in your typical PvP system, why not have 3? Or how about races where you can choose either "good" or "evil" (again, like Centaurs)?
Yet all of the MMOs have the same boring, slight mods on the same basic races that have been prevalent since Tolkien became big. I dunno, they all kinda bore me at this point...and I don't really care either, because HD-DVD and upgrading all my electronics has done a good job of sucking me away from PC games altogether.
EDIT: You know Cymdai, the more I think about it, the more I wonder if perhaps movies, music, and games aren't being dumbed down for the current generation? I mean technologically speaking, we are able to make things look a lot prettier, etc. etc. But if you look at what kids enjoy now, don't you have to wonder if the bar will *ever* be set higher again? When's the last time a game really hit you hard, like the old GoldBox games, or Baldur's Gate, or the original Civilization?
Cymdai, you and I are on the same wavelength WRT evolution in races. I have been DYING for the chance to play a Centaur in an MMO...I don't see why someone couldn't imp them with, say, tailpieces and horse armor to make up for the lack of leggings. This is just an example of something I'd like to see.
Or instead of having 2 factions in your typical PvP system, why not have 3? Or how about races where you can choose either "good" or "evil" (again, like Centaurs)?
Yet all of the MMOs have the same boring, slight mods on the same basic races that have been prevalent since Tolkien became big. I dunno, they all kinda bore me at this point...and I don't really care either, because HD-DVD and upgrading all my electronics has done a good job of sucking me away from PC games altogether.
EDIT: You know Cymdai, the more I think about it, the more I wonder if perhaps movies, music, and games aren't being dumbed down for the current generation? I mean technologically speaking, we are able to make things look a lot prettier, etc. etc. But if you look at what kids enjoy now, don't you have to wonder if the bar will *ever* be set higher again? When's the last time a game really hit you hard, like the old GoldBox games, or Baldur's Gate, or the original Civilization?
I can agree to an extent. Complexity isn't always superior, but I definitely appreciate it when executed properly.The last game I've played that really, truly blew me out of the water was a console game. Resident Evil 4. Talk about rocking socks...
However, one game I really liked, as it was just...different......the Deus Ex series. Nothing else like it, really.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
1) Combat
I'd like advances in the combat system. Counters, saves, they're just dumbed down versions of what players have done in the past. Now, instead of timing your skills properly based on the mob's movement, you have an "easy button" that tells you what to use and when to use it. I'm tired of timed swings, fixed delays, and non-target based combat. How can a 3rd gen improve this? Adopt a targeting system similar to the Fallout series. Swing at an enemy's eyes, and you blind them. Break the enemy's arms, and they're unable to use certain skills, etc etc. Give enemies weak points similar to Phantasy Star Universe. These are all adaptations that need to be in the so called "3rd generation" of MMORPG's. They've existed on the single player front for years, and there's no excuse for the laziness and lack of innovation from modern MMO developers.
2) Economies
I'd like to see more player-run, "efficient" economies. Limited resources for limited crafted goods. Territories yielding said resources, which could contribute to factional warfare in a bi-weekly/monthly manner. Boycotts, trade routes, caravans, smugglers, black markets. Complex? Yes. This is a must for some serious advancement in the genre.
2. Economy in VG is the same old standard stuff, with a few money sinks to keep people as broke as possible, with such things as item degradation. Not real original. A true 3rd generation MMO would have a REAL economy something like what EVE Online has. One real trading, trading ships, trade caravans, that kind of thing. No other MMO has come close to having a real economy, but EQ2, UO and SWG have come closer than most. And VG is far behind any of those in the economy factor. Of all mmo's that exist, EVE is the only one that really approaches having anything like a 3rd gen economic system.
We are not at the point to figure VG economy yet. Playing the game would tell you that. We are not sure of the stuff that the crafters can do. Shops will be runned in VG. Just like good old SWG. So i don't think judging VG economy at the moment is "fair". We should wait until people get houses, open shops and stuff. So trading boats will probably be possible. You can trade items in VG, but not the soulbound ones.
There are many other things that could have been done, instead of spending thousands of hours on that boring and lame diplomacy system, like Medieval style crafting guilds, where similar crafters cooperate, Like the ability to build things like permanent roads, bridges,and tunnels (toll of course). Like setting up real farms and/or ranches to perhaps raise and sell scarce commodities.
There are many other things that could have been done, but apparently was not even under consideration. Brad's Vision (tm) seems to have overridden any really new ideas.
Sorry if you don't have your own MMO devs. Hope it happens to you someday.
eqnext.wikia.com
Everytime you start to think you are the grand old mmo veteran the game screws you
It seems to get better now, but the first weeks there was a very agressive mood ingame. I think thats because some brains had to be reconfigured
The 3rd faction are those who just dont accept the quality of the software. I guess many of the quality based haters have bought a D&L pioneer key in the past and now hate everyone who releases bad/unfinished software. Quality and bugs are the only true reasons to dislike the game. I hope Sigil gets it done in time. This is finally one of those games that feels like mmorpg. I guess a lot of readers dont underatand this... jepp.. there was a time where PKs where a problem and not skills, quests, balance and that "modern crap". I guess i am growing old or maybe the younger players really dont know what a mmorpg really was back then.. in the good ole days
As for you Porfat... That is a small minority of the community and I've have found people like that on every game (Especially people who hand around on various forums)
But from my experience the community in game is MOSTLY very nice...
Awesome
Now this is what loads of people are wanting and expecting out of a 3rd Gen MMO. Well said. Not rehashed EQ with a few minor changes pretending to be a 3rd gen MMO. I especially agree with the combat part; I want full control over how I attack and where I attack it would add so much stratgedy. The combat system in MMOs haven't really evolved out of the boring "auto-attack plus a special combo every now and then" system that encourages sleeping on the keyboard.
I completely agree. While Cymdai apparently has thought out good combat tweaks more than I have, I have given a LOT of thought to the more passive facets of MMOs, some of which he touched upon. IMO, VG attempted to graze the surface of what I'd think would be standard features in a 3G MMO with their implementation of houses, boats, and more advanced crafting -- but that's it, it barely grazed the surface. It (along with every other MMO to date) is by no means revolutionary in terms of flexibility, content, immersion, etc. -- and again I wonder if some of this isn't attributable to kids' attention spans these days. After all, look at what the #1 MMO (and probably #1 PC game period) to date is -- a campy, superficial, arcade-style, repetitive, yet very successful WoW.
So Cymdai's comments are a great start as to what would comprise a 3G MMO...and no game has come close to even touching on those beginning ideas.
I mean c'mon, if a game is going to have faction-based PvP, give us a race or two that can choose which faction it "joins"...this would be no different than a Neutral character picking one side of a racewar.
Give us some different approaches to playable races, like Centaurs or Ogres. (At least Blizz took a step in the right direction with Dranei, albeit a very small and somewhat controversial step.)
How about banks/vaults that actually allow you to invest in other players' businesses, or the ability to set up an interest-yielding account, where the APY would vary based on the decisions of a global/factional Fed? Not everyone would have to participate in such an endeavor, but how about providing the option?
The possibilities are limitless, and I'm talking about possibilities that could be imped with TODAY's technology. VG took 5 frigging years to create, and I can't help but gasp at what could have been accomplished in 5 years with a solid business model.
Combat: I don't say it's boring ...well close to boring, but it's not innovative either! And the combat effects are seriously poor realy. WoW and EQ2 tops combat effects and moves with ease compared to Vanguard.
Quest System: You are in denial my friend. Did you realy play any other MMO´s at all? Seriously... the questing system within Vanguard isn't any different then within for example WoW. When you done with quests in the starter area you will get a deliver quest in the next, and so on. So far pretty much the exact same. So nothing innovative here.
Game full of bugs: Seriously? Nothing gamebreaking? You must be one of the few exeptional lucky ones!
As I call level / EXP loss after relogging pretty game breaking friend! It happened 2 times to me and got realy fed up with it seeing hours of investement going through the drain! World graphic glitches getting you stuck and with mobs keeps you dying over and over and with bad luck you lose even a couple of levels debt XP due to the too heavy death penalty! And when you read the game issues forum you can read that there are a lot of players experiencing these serious issues!
I can't comprehent with so many bugs and glitches in the game that they didn't temporarely lower the debt XP penalty or even dissable the Debt XP penalty at all till they sorted out most of these bugs! And then not to speak that even on a high end system you have to downgrade the graphic settings a lot to be able to get some decent performance lol.
And here I just name a few! People who fail to see this clearly didn't play any other MMO before (at least not a decent one) to see Vanguard is a third rank MMO still in Beta state! Even the devs have admitted the game isn't ready yet, but still the fanboys do what ever it cost to piss off people here saying how awesome and how finished and ready this game is and call critics here losers who need to seek some mental help! Seriously ..you fanboys who live in such denial torching down the critics are the ones who need to seek mental help
And yes we critics have the right to be pissed! We wasted $50 dollars on a unfinished third rank product! As for some $50 dollars might not seem much, but for some people who don't have the best job in the world it is a lot! So I fully understand those who feel cheated and are very angry about it! As SOE are greedy bastards who still deny any form of refunding!
Cheers
1) Combat
I'd like advances in the combat system. Counters, saves, they're just dumbed down versions of what players have done in the past. Now, instead of timing your skills properly based on the mob's movement, you have an "easy button" that tells you what to use and when to use it. I'm tired of timed swings, fixed delays, and non-target based combat. How can a 3rd gen improve this? Adopt a targeting system similar to the Fallout series. Swing at an enemy's eyes, and you blind them. Break the enemy's arms, and they're unable to use certain skills, etc etc. Give enemies weak points similar to Phantasy Star Universe. These are all adaptations that need to be in the so called "3rd generation" of MMORPG's. They've existed on the single player front for years, and there's no excuse for the laziness and lack of innovation from modern MMO developers.
2) Economies
I'd like to see more player-run, "efficient" economies. Limited resources for limited crafted goods. Territories yielding said resources, which could contribute to factional warfare in a bi-weekly/monthly manner. Boycotts, trade routes, caravans, smugglers, black markets. Complex? Yes. This is a must for some serious advancement in the genre.
3) Races
I've said it in a debate before, but I want new races. I'm sick and tired of Tolkien, and having 5-20 humanoid races which play exactly the same, aside from minor cosmetic differences and skins.
4) The World
I grow weary of "dead" worlds. What I'd REALLY love to see in MMORPG's is actual dev involvement. Have them host events where they raid towns as a giant boss monster. Create some random, unplanned, unexpected festival for the hell of it. Semi-intelligent creatures, that don't wander mindlessly in 5-7 meter circles for hours on end.
That's off the top of my head. That's what I would consider advancement to a new generation of MMORPG's. Find me a dev team who wants to make my game, and I'll show you all pure gaming gold.
This is also why I think so many dislike the game. McQuaid ran his damned mouth about creating this epic gaming experience, and he ended up producing a re-hash of Everquest. There's literally nothing about it that screams "play me" in my opinion, but with all the hype and promises made, along with the mind-numbingly weak "vision", the bar was set high. When you hear about the first title from the "3rd generation", and you see Vanguard, well, you're left with an empty, disappointed feeling, as well as little expectations for the rest of the titles coming out this year.
That, in my opinion, is why this game inspires such venom. It's one thing to fall short of folk's expectations, it's another to crush their hopes for other titles that are in the same category.
Vanguard inspires venom because of SOE's involvement. People will swear up and down about how they have played it and it's uninspired blah blah blah... B.S. it's because tons of people hate SOE for what they did to SWG (and whatever other game they pick) and they can't get over it.
And saying Vanguard is a rehash of EQ is just showing how truly little you know about the game itself. You don't like the game, we get it. Your opinion is worth nothing more than any other account on this site. For a staff writer you sure do have a bug up your rug for this game.
What causes so much hate in some people is the more vocal fans, and this is my proof. A guy says it's about 3rd generation and what he thinks that should be and some obsessive starts spouting about soe (despite not once being mentioned originally), suggests the poster is lying and then writes off his opinion as useless. This is why I will NEVER play this game under any circumstance, because a mmorpg is as much about the community as it is about the game itself. Does it matter what the actual game is like if I have to deal with this stupid crap everytime I play?
I hope this game lasts forever so you can all rot in it and stay out of everything else.
The answer to the original poster's question is obvious - much was promised that hasn't been delivered.
Vanguard was hyped a lot. They promised a lot. They delivered a pretty average game with a lot... of bugs. I honestly believe the developers have great vision and with more time they'll turn this into an awesome game. But right now...
The fact that the MMO market has been so quiet since the launch of WoW is also likely contributing to the venom. People get bored with old things and want new things. There hasn't been anything new (and really good) in the MMO world recently. Then along comes Vanguard with its promises of 3rd gen and an array of awesome features that could make the seriously hungry MMO'er drool.
Take a hungry and starving MMO'er who has been promised a virtual gourmet buffet, and instead plonk down a slice of suspicious smelling meatloaf in front of them.
The venom sacs will start pumping...
Nope! Cause I wasn't commenting on lotro but on WoW. And you just proved what I said, you admitted you play WoW and dislike VG.
I rest my case. Man that was easy.