As someone who is considering buying gold, the reason i am doing it is because i enjoy the game i play and the people i play with. However with the limited time i have right between work, going back to get my degree, family committments i just can't upgrade my character. And with content getting harder and harder i have to keep my gear nearly top notch. So my choices are 1) be a tag along charity case, you know someone who they will take because they don't want to "hurt my feelings" even though i cant fulfill my role, or someone can do it better. OR 2) buy money, buy my important upgrades and help the guild out. someone said "if its bad game design then quit", that would be great advice if it wasn't for the fact that EVERY game out there is designed like this. WoW takes time to grind for gear, EQ2 takes time to grind for gear, L2 takes time to grind for gear ... so on and so forth. the only game i never felt the grind with was SWG, and i wasnt a crafter either ... but i had more than enough cash to go around. So until MMOs change thier design, people like myself will consider or flat out buy money. And if you don't like it, well tough go make your own MMO.
I wonder how the MMORPG developers/artists feel about people making money off their art that they're not getting a cut of. God knows I'd be pissed. Sorry to derail the topic but anyone got a source explaining why it's somehow not illegal to claim ownership over virtual items you created?
It's a gray area. If you sell the time invested instead of the actual item they have no grounds legally to stop them. So for example instead of saying here is 100g for 20 bucks, instead I say ok it will take me X amounts of hours to go and farm you the money and that costs 20 bucks.
So they are providing a service and not selling a product.
I seriously don't see how that reason flew in court. I could take 1000 hours to get an apple, and try to sell it for $1000. No one would care or pay for that. For some rare items, it depends entirely on luck. It might only take someone the first try to get the item, and another person might spend a year trying to get it. But they'd both be only to sell it for roughly the same amount. No one's going to care about exactly how long it took him.
And on a certain RMT site, there's NOTHING detailing how long it took them to get the item or to make xxx amount of gil/gold. It just says something like "1,000 Gold=$10." No one's paying for the time, they're paying for the virtual items.
I seriously don't see how that reason flew in court. I could take 1000 hours to get an apple, and try to sell it for $1000. No one would care or pay for that. For some rare items, it depends entirely on luck. It might only take someone the first try to get the item, and another person might spend a year trying to get it. But they'd both be only to sell it for roughly the same amount. No one's going to care about exactly how long it took him.
And on a certain RMT site, there's NOTHING detailing how long it took them to get the item or to make xxx amount of gil/gold. It just says something like "1,000 Gold=$10." No one's paying for the time, they're paying for the virtual items.
Yes it is chance based but you can calculate how long you will need to get an item on average. With a lot of data you will get a very accurate figure. In this connection though selling your time is just a way to legaly sell your items online. (Items belong to the game producer, your time not)
--- Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
I wonder how the MMORPG developers/artists feel about people making money off their art that they're not getting a cut of. God knows I'd be pissed. Sorry to derail the topic but anyone got a source explaining why it's somehow not illegal to claim ownership over virtual items you created?
If I was a game developer and people were willing to pay their hard earned cash to someone else who found a hard to find item in the game I created, I would be flattered. That means that people value part of the game enough to spend money on it. I would then take it further and help my players out by creating ebay and paypal services so that I could track fraud and protect the customers. I'd be providing incentive for people to play the game and sell items, as well as security for those who wish to buy items. I'd also make a little cash on the side of which I could use a large portion of it to prevent cheating and duping and make the game environment better for the long term health of the game. The more people that are so into the game that they're willing to buy items, the more of their friends they will bring in the game and thus increase my subscription revenue. The more people that see opportunity to play a game and get paid for it, the more people they will bring into the game and increase my subscription revenue. Sure, I'd lose a few of the hard core anti-ebayers who flat out refuse to play the game since it encourages RMT, but those losses would easily be made up by the other people attracted to the game.
I just wish the sony station exchange model had been applied to a different game. Sure, it was highly successful for EQ2, but EQ2 has a very small market share. If they did this with wow, all you anti-ebayers would find out just how much in the minority you really are. Sales through the system would be unbelievable. Easily in the hundreds of millions, if not BILLIONS would be transferred through that system. And if you really think about it, wow does not provide much incentive to sell and buy items. Imagine a Diablo 2 type game, with no bind on pickup. It would be phenomenal. Imagine how many jobs that type of system would create. It's really quite amazing if you can get off your high horse and look at it objectively. Suddenly, your "accomplishment" in a puny video game doesn't seem that important anymore. Well, that is, unless you're a selfish jerk who tries to force your morals on others. Doh, that's a lot of people in this thread. Sorry.
Here's my stance on gold buying. There are actions to perform in the game which earn money. These actions are often boring and repetitive and often comparable to work. The kind of work I could get paid to perform. The in game currency has a real world value. That is a simple economic fact, as much as some might like to deny it. I can sit at the game literally working for a tiny fraction of minimum wage, or I could invest only a couple of hours of real world time and skip all of that nonsense and go to the more fun stuff.
You can stick to your boring money grind while I get to the meat of the game.
Of course, I also think any game with such gameplay is crap and not worth playing, so I've never purchased gold. In fact, I've gotten fed up with MMORPGs and PC games enough that I've since moved to console gaming.
Yes it is chance based but you can calculate how long you will need to get an item on average. With a lot of data you will get a very accurate figure. In this connection though selling your time is just a way to legaly sell your items online. (Items belong to the game producer, your time not)
So where do they list the hours it took them to get the gold and the exchange rate of those said hours? If I buy a shirt, I'm paying for the shirt, not the hours it took them to make it. People are, as much as they deny it, not really paying for the service, they're paying for the end result.
And zaxxxon, you're a generous soul, you are. But I'm not arguing about the SOE exchange or whatever, I'm arguing about the legality of outside sources. Because if RMT was going to run rampant on my game anyway, I'd sell the items to beat out all the RMTers, too.
Yes it is chance based but you can calculate how long you will need to get an item on average. With a lot of data you will get a very accurate figure. In this connection though selling your time is just a way to legaly sell your items online. (Items belong to the game producer, your time not)
So where do they list the hours it took them to get the gold and the exchange rate of those said hours? If I buy a shirt, I'm paying for the shirt, not the hours it took them to make it. People are, as much as they deny it, not really paying for the service, they're paying for the end result.
And zaxxxon, you're a generous soul, you are. But I'm not arguing about the SOE exchange or whatever, I'm arguing about the legality of outside sources. Because if RMT was going to run rampant on my game anyway, I'd sell the items to beat out all the RMTers, too.
They don't have to advertise the hours it takes. What you aren't understanding is they are not and can not be selling the actual items. As they don't create the actual item. All they can do is sell the time took to aquire said item.
Think about it this way. If I was going to sell you a gold piece in RL I would need to go and mine the raw material, then turn it into the form you wanted to buy (say coin or bar). Or I could charge you to turn your raw material into the bar or coin. See the difference. The gold sellers are providing a service. They are not providing an actual product. Now if a Gold seller exploited the system hacked into say Blizzard's website and actually created 10,000,000 gold pieces in the code and then sold it. That would be illegal.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Official RMT shops have been done lots of times, especially in eastern F2P games (these games seem to be springing up like an epidemic lately).
I don't like them because they let the gaming companies exploit the hell out of their customers. They make some leet/unique items that can only be acquired by RMT and suddenly everyone has to buy one to stay competitive. And as soon as you want to squeeze some more cash out of your customers you make a new compulsory RMT item. MMO prices are scandalous enough as it is, what with shelf prices, monthly fees, and expansion packs. The last thing we need is the gaming company forcing us to pay more through RMT.
At least a 3rd party RMT store is just that - a 3rd party.
But like i said the best policy is through design. Make your game so that it does not encourage RMTing and avoid this crap altogether.
2. Make money have a pack space weight. It would be impossible to stockpile all the money needed to be a gold farming company if say each character couldn't hold more then 5K gold in weight.
3. Make the game a true barter system with no money at all. There really isn't any reason to have money in the game. ( Asheron's Call was like this, although they had money it was totally worthless for most of the early games lifespan) If you want my +5 dmg enchantment either give me what I am looking for or find someone that will. This is less convenient, but it does stop all RMT for items and trade skills.
4. Take out all money sinks. Developers need to stop thinking that the way to keep people playing is by creating more grinds. Yeah you might keep that person a few extra months by creating a flying mount that needs 5K gold to buy. But in the long run you just alienate most of your playing base. The developers need to come up with more interesting things to do then grinding for money in the games. When was the last time you read in a fantasy book about the hero going out to grind mobs to get enough gold to get his fire resist potions so he could slay the dragon? That is why I am looking forward to the Bioware MMO. Hopefully they will get this right and finally make a MMO that is similar to a Single Player RPG with a great story, but also with a reason to be paying to play.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
They don't have to advertise the hours it takes. What you aren't understanding is they are not and can not be selling the actual items. As they don't create the actual item. All they can do is sell the time took to aquire said item.
Think about it this way. If I was going to sell you a gold piece in RL I would need to go and mine the raw material, then turn it into the form you wanted to buy (say coin or bar). Or I could charge you to turn your raw material into the bar or coin. See the difference. The gold sellers are providing a service. They are not providing an actual product. Now if a Gold seller exploited the system hacked into say Blizzard's website and actually created 10,000,000 gold pieces in the code and then sold it. That would be illegal.
So by your example, this is the online equivalent of a crafter making a rare item. But here's the thing, the crafter didn't actually make the item. Unless your name is Second Life, it was already encoded within the system and all the crafter did was press a few buttons and get a few items to "create" it. But he did not texture or actually CREATE the item, it was made by someone else.
They don't have to advertise the hours it takes. What you aren't understanding is they are not and can not be selling the actual items. As they don't create the actual item. All they can do is sell the time took to aquire said item.
Think about it this way. If I was going to sell you a gold piece in RL I would need to go and mine the raw material, then turn it into the form you wanted to buy (say coin or bar). Or I could charge you to turn your raw material into the bar or coin. See the difference. The gold sellers are providing a service. They are not providing an actual product. Now if a Gold seller exploited the system hacked into say Blizzard's website and actually created 10,000,000 gold pieces in the code and then sold it. That would be illegal.
So by your example, this is the online equivalent of a crafter making a rare item. But here's the thing, the crafter didn't actually make the item. Unless your name is Second Life, it was already encoded within the system and all the crafter did was press a few buttons and get a few items to "create" it. But he did not texture or actually CREATE the item, it was made by someone else.
No it's not the same you keep missing the point. It is a service. Like if you went to a gas station that used to pump for you. The gas is more expensive. That extra price in gas was for the cost of the person pumping the gas for you. He didn't create the gas. He put the nozzle in your tank and pumped the gas. Just like a gold seller doesn't create the gold they put the gold in your mailbox or in your trade window. See the difference. They are selling a service. And unfortanetly MMO companies have no legal stand to stop them from selling a service. The only thing they can do is ban the accounts, because the gold sellers have no legal stand to be allowed to play the game.
See so it ends up a tough battle to fight. The gold sellers don't own the items so the company can take them away at anytime, but the company doesn't own your time so you can sell it willingly and they can not do anything about that.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
They don't have to advertise the hours it takes. What you aren't understanding is they are not and can not be selling the actual items. As they don't create the actual item. All they can do is sell the time took to aquire said item.
Think about it this way. If I was going to sell you a gold piece in RL I would need to go and mine the raw material, then turn it into the form you wanted to buy (say coin or bar). Or I could charge you to turn your raw material into the bar or coin. See the difference. The gold sellers are providing a service. They are not providing an actual product. Now if a Gold seller exploited the system hacked into say Blizzard's website and actually created 10,000,000 gold pieces in the code and then sold it. That would be illegal.
So by your example, this is the online equivalent of a crafter making a rare item. But here's the thing, the crafter didn't actually make the item. Unless your name is Second Life, it was already encoded within the system and all the crafter did was press a few buttons and get a few items to "create" it. But he did not texture or actually CREATE the item, it was made by someone else.Antique dealers don't make antiques either but they do collect service fees for acquiring them and selling them to those interested and willing to pay...
And for the record. Gold sellers do less damage to the economy of a game then Powergamers do. They are the ones who raise the prices on items. Most people that buy gold do so to get fixed goals (like an epic mount) and are buying items that are at a fixed price. Powergamers on the other hand will spend hundreds if not thousands of gold on their low level alts to have the best gear on them.
So really everyone should be mad at Powergamers. They are the root of the problem.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
I wonder how the MMORPG developers/artists feel about people making money off their art that they're not getting a cut of. God knows I'd be pissed. Sorry to derail the topic but anyone got a source explaining why it's somehow not illegal to claim ownership over virtual items you created?
It's a gray area. If you sell the time invested instead of the actual item they have no grounds legally to stop them. So for example instead of saying here is 100g for 20 bucks, instead I say ok it will take me X amounts of hours to go and farm you the money and that costs 20 bucks.
So they are providing a service and not selling a product.
I seriously don't see how that reason flew in court. I could take 1000 hours to get an apple, and try to sell it for $1000. No one would care or pay for that. For some rare items, it depends entirely on luck. It might only take someone the first try to get the item, and another person might spend a year trying to get it. But they'd both be only to sell it for roughly the same amount. No one's going to care about exactly how long it took him.
And on a certain RMT site, there's NOTHING detailing how long it took them to get the item or to make xxx amount of gil/gold. It just says something like "1,000 Gold=$10." No one's paying for the time, they're paying for the virtual items.
No, when you buy the apple, you're choosing to pay for everything that went into delivering that apple to you. Don't confuse economies of scale with competition. Gold farmers are making a resource available to those willing to pay for it.
I am not going to bash gold buyers. There are enough folks out there to do that. I would like to say that I do agree about Lineage 2 game design. Their economy is way out of control. Bots, farmers, and the lack of various crafting masteries for each race/class have driven L2's economy way out of control. It is next to impossible to gain gear at the appropriate levels now, especially at A grade and S grade. So, my guess is that a good portion of the game's server population buy gold from time to time. I have read somewhere, and forgive me, I don't have the archived data, but might have been one of the fan forums, that around 80% of the population has bought gold at least once. That info was cross-referenced to some site that did analysis on the gold trade on MMO's. Now, this was about 2 years ago, before there was any S grade gear. Forgive me for not being able to recall that information. I just happen to think about it though as I read this forum thread.
As for the other MMO's., I do believe there are several out there where most folks with some effort and patience can make quite a good living. EQ 2 I have seen that it is quite possible to make a grand living as a crafter. In WoW, you can actually craft and gain appropriate armor at each level without too much trouble. Now, with "Burning Crusade" it is possible at levels 60+ to earn anywhere from 10 to 50 gold per day doing quests in the new areas. I have a level 20 Blood Elf warlock that has earned over 10 gold in only 2 days of work. I project by the time he is level 40, he will easily have at least 50 gold or maybe even more if his jewel crafting does well! The book is still out on Vanguard as I haven't developed my character enough yet to see a trend.
I just think that you can level a character and make a living on a good MMO where the economy is fairer and more of a free enterprise system. Sure, there are plenty of Asian/Canadian/Euro/American gold farmers in most games, but with the exception of L2, I can live and level quite well without having to be bothered by purchasing video money for my toon!
All I want is the truth Just gimme some truth John Lennon
[QUOTE]No it's not the same you keep missing the point. It is a service. Like if you went to a gas station that used to pump for you. The gas is more expensive. That extra price in gas was for the cost of the person pumping the gas for you. He didn't create the gas. He put the nozzle in your tank and pumped the gas. Just like a gold seller doesn't create the gold they put the gold in your mailbox or in your trade window. See the difference. They are selling a service. And unfortanetly MMO companies have no legal stand to stop them from selling a service. The only thing they can do is ban the accounts, because the gold sellers have no legal stand to be allowed to play the game. [/QUOTE]
No, I know what you're talking about. But you're not just paying for the service, you're paying for the gas. The company pays them for the service. As for legal standing, I dunno. I'm reading this nice article http://law.richmond.edu/jolt/v13i2/article7.pdf about virtual property rights and it argues that the court may be swayed by the companys EULA. If the game's EULA states that players have no rights over virtual items or property or their characters, then they could ban said player for buying gold. I read about the BlackSnow v. Mythic Entertainment, and Blacksnow ended up skipping town before the case was finished so it would have been interesting to see who would have won that legal battle.
As for the antique dealer shop comparison, that would make more sense if you had to buy the items with real money first and then sell them to other players for the same money instead of virtual ones.
And for the record. Gold sellers do less damage to the economy of a game then Powergamers do. They are the ones who raise the prices on items. Most people that buy gold do so to get fixed goals (like an epic mount) and are buying items that are at a fixed price. Powergamers on the other hand will spend hundreds if not thousands of gold on their low level alts to have the best gear on them.
So really everyone should be mad at Powergamers. They are the root of the problem.
Update: if people are paying money to circumvent tedious "features" of your game, like leveling and monster killing, maybe it's your (the designer's) fault for making such a tedious piece of shit game. Frankly, designers shouldn't be going after gold farmers for attempting to make a profit in the vaccuum left by their shoddy work
It doesn't matter why people buy gold. What matters is honoring the EULA. If the game doesn't allow it, then you are not entitled to do it. Buying gold or any other advantage with real money in a game which forbids it, is cheating.
Many gamers enjoy achieving and competing In a MMOG. In order for that aspect of the game to be fun, everyone must start on a level playing field and be restricted to the same access and environmental conditions. Thus, you have to earn your way in game with expended effort.
If you just don't like that type of game, or you are so restricted time wise in real life and feel left behind because of your time restrictions, then play a game that allows RMT influence. You are not entitled to ruin other gamers fun who are playing by the rules and have an expectation of a level playing field because of those rules. Only selfish aholes justify ruining another gamer's fun.
I have no moral highground about buying gold, i will save them for real life. I would happily play with someone whos character had been created with currency which had been bought. There are many reasonable reasons to buy currency, although i would not do it myself (i would much rather find a new game than feel i had to buy money to feel happy with my character).Some reasons are more logical than others but i would never ostricise a player for making that decision.
I agree that it is up to the game developers to create a world where buying gold would be of no use. Having a level playing field should be an essential part of any game world. However looking at games like Lineage 11 and the number of bots then you have to wonder how much they really care (not much/at all,of course) too much money to be made. The economy is an essential and interesting part of MMOs i just hope that eventually that game world economics and real world economics can be made seperate, thats all.
It doesn't matter why people buy gold. What matters is honoring the EULA. If the game doesn't allow it, then you are not entitled to do it. Buying gold or any other advantage with real money in a game which forbids it, is cheating. Many gamers enjoy achieving and competing In a MMOG. In order for that aspect of the game to be fun, everyone must start on a level playing field and be restricted to the same access and environmental conditions. Thus, you have to earn your way in game with expended effort. If you just don't like that type of game, or you are so restricted time wise in real life and feel left behind because of your time restrictions, then play a game that allows RMT influence. You are not entitled to ruin other gamers fun who are playing by the rules and have an expectation of a level playing field because of those rules. Only selfish aholes justify ruining another gamer's fun.
"Many gamers enjoy achieving and competing In a MMOG. In order for that aspect of the game to be fun, everyone must start on a level playing field and be restricted to the same access and environmental conditions. Thus, you have to earn your way in game with expended effort."
Not everyone plays the game for this reason. So why should their fun be less just so someone else's fun can be more? What you are saying is that in order for you to get fun out of your achieving and competition that the person you are competing against needs to have achieved the same way as you. Why? How does it matter if it took you months to achieve something and it took them a couple of days. This is the biggest thing that is wrong with MMO's today. Everyone cares too much about what everyone else has etc. People shouldn't give a damn about what items other people have or how they achieved them. What does it matter if they spent the last 6 months achieving some uber sword of doom they killed you with or if it took them 1 click on the internet to get the same uber sword of doom?
Really what the problem boils down to is jealousy. People get jealous of what other people have and how they achieved it. Some of the people who buy gold are jealous of the people with better items then them. And some of the people who get those items the game way are jealous at the ease the gold buyers get their items. It's the same problem WoW has been having with Raiders versus Casuals. In a game there is no reason why both shouldn't be able to have the same exact items, but the raiders feel like they deserve it because they achieved it, when really they should want to raid out of the enjoyment of raiding or the challenge of beating the boss.
It really comes down to people need to enjoy the journey there not the destination. Of course some people won't do that and when they get old and are near death they will look around and see how lonely they are. People so focused on their achievements and things end up lonely dieing people and realize that none of it really meant anything.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
I know two people who purchase wow gold. One respecs hir rogue at least 3 times a week and has respecced over 60 times since the TBC. The other is just lazy. lol.
"Many gamers enjoy achieving and competing In a MMOG. In order for that aspect of the game to be fun, everyone must start on a level playing field and be restricted to the same access and environmental conditions. Thus, you have to earn your way in game with expended effort."
Not everyone plays the game for this reason. So why should their fun be less just so someone else's fun can be more? This philosophy applies to either view equally. Why should my fun be less so a RMT gamer can have their fun? What you are saying is that in order for you to get fun out of your achieving and competition that the person you are competing against needs to have achieved the same way as you. Why? How does it matter if it took you months to achieve something and it took them a couple of days. This is the biggest thing that is wrong with MMO's today. Everyone cares too much about what everyone else has etc. People shouldn't give a damn about what items other people have or how they achieved them. What does it matter if they spent the last 6 months achieving some uber sword of doom they killed you with or if it took them 1 click on the internet to get the same uber sword of doom? Why I like things a certain way vs someone else is my choice and viewpoint. I don't need to defend my position when it is the same position of the game developers. Again this philosophy applies equally to both sides. Why does a gamer who believes it's ok to use RMT think it's important to do so for their fun? Why don't they enjoy the journey and effort it takes to earn their way? This is the biggest thing wrong with MMOs today.
Really what the problem boils down to is jealousy. People get jealous of what other people have and how they achieved it. Some of the people who buy gold are jealous of the people with better items then them. And some of the people who get those items the game way are jealous at the ease the gold buyers get their items. It's the same problem WoW has been having with Raiders versus Casuals. In a game there is no reason why both shouldn't be able to have the same exact items, but the raiders feel like they deserve it because they achieved it, when really they should want to raid out of the enjoyment of raiding or the challenge of beating the boss. The views between raiders and non raiders and RMT supporters vs traditional gamers are too distinct and polar opposites. That is why we choose to play games that cater to our likes. There are MMOGs designed for raiding and MMOGs that are solo and small group friendly. There are MMOGs that support RMT influence and MMOGs that forbid it.
It really comes down to people need to enjoy the journey there not the destination. Of course some people won't do that and when they get old and are near death they will look around and see how lonely they are. People so focused on their achievements and things end up lonely dieing people and realize that none of it really meant anything. Again a philosophy that applies to both sides. There is no reason to piss on someone elses's parade. Play the game that suits and supports your likes. Only selfish aholes force their will on other players.
They don't have to advertise the hours it takes. What you aren't understanding is they are not and can not be selling the actual items. As they don't create the actual item. All they can do is sell the time took to aquire said item.
Think about it this way. If I was going to sell you a gold piece in RL I would need to go and mine the raw material, then turn it into the form you wanted to buy (say coin or bar). Or I could charge you to turn your raw material into the bar or coin. See the difference. The gold sellers are providing a service. They are not providing an actual product. Now if a Gold seller exploited the system hacked into say Blizzard's website and actually created 10,000,000 gold pieces in the code and then sold it. That would be illegal.
So by your example, this is the online equivalent of a crafter making a rare item. But here's the thing, the crafter didn't actually make the item. Unless your name is Second Life, it was already encoded within the system and all the crafter did was press a few buttons and get a few items to "create" it. But he did not texture or actually CREATE the item, it was made by someone else.
No it's not the same you keep missing the point. It is a service. Like if you went to a gas station that used to pump for you. The gas is more expensive. That extra price in gas was for the cost of the person pumping the gas for you. He didn't create the gas. He put the nozzle in your tank and pumped the gas. Just like a gold seller doesn't create the gold they put the gold in your mailbox or in your trade window. See the difference. They are selling a service. And unfortanetly MMO companies have no legal stand to stop them from selling a service. The only thing they can do is ban the accounts, because the gold sellers have no legal stand to be allowed to play the game.
See so it ends up a tough battle to fight. The gold sellers don't own the items so the company can take them away at anytime, but the company doesn't own your time so you can sell it willingly and they can not do anything about that.
Legally this is pretty accurate. The gold sellers are, in reality, selling a service: it's essentially the time to acquire the virtual item. Instead of the player using his own time to get the gold, he pays someone else for their time. This is the main reason why gaming companies have not been able to shut down these sellers, even when they have tried to do so.
Of course that doesn't mean that the sellers have the "right" to do what they do -- that is a matter of contract between the game developers and the game users, and if it violates the terms of that contract (which it does in most games), then the sellers can get bounced for doing it, and they do get bounced. Now as we know this isn't terribly effective, because new accounts and new characters will simply be created to facilitate the service, and in fact the way that the bigger operations work is to have many characters available for farming because they assume some will be caught and banned -- it's a part of the business plan to have enough to be able to withstand bans coming along every now and then.
So basically, you folks need to get over it. It's not going away as long as these games feature money/ietm grinds which are RL time sinks, and offer ways to get around those time sinks through the purchase of currency. Games have started to change some of this. For example, WoW now has much, much more gear that is tied to reputation than it did before the recent expansion, and beyond using a powerlevelling service to rep grind for you, there isn't much of a help in buying currency for these items. Still, that's been more than offset by the introduction of a huge money sink in the flying mount (~5k gold!), and surely that is keeping the currency sellers well in the black during these months.
Comments
It's a gray area. If you sell the time invested instead of the actual item they have no grounds legally to stop them. So for example instead of saying here is 100g for 20 bucks, instead I say ok it will take me X amounts of hours to go and farm you the money and that costs 20 bucks.
So they are providing a service and not selling a product.
I seriously don't see how that reason flew in court. I could take 1000 hours to get an apple, and try to sell it for $1000. No one would care or pay for that. For some rare items, it depends entirely on luck. It might only take someone the first try to get the item, and another person might spend a year trying to get it. But they'd both be only to sell it for roughly the same amount. No one's going to care about exactly how long it took him.
And on a certain RMT site, there's NOTHING detailing how long it took them to get the item or to make xxx amount of gil/gold. It just says something like "1,000 Gold=$10." No one's paying for the time, they're paying for the virtual items.
I seriously don't see how that reason flew in court. I could take 1000 hours to get an apple, and try to sell it for $1000. No one would care or pay for that. For some rare items, it depends entirely on luck. It might only take someone the first try to get the item, and another person might spend a year trying to get it. But they'd both be only to sell it for roughly the same amount. No one's going to care about exactly how long it took him.
And on a certain RMT site, there's NOTHING detailing how long it took them to get the item or to make xxx amount of gil/gold. It just says something like "1,000 Gold=$10." No one's paying for the time, they're paying for the virtual items.
Yes it is chance based but you can calculate how long you will need to get an item on average. With a lot of data you will get a very accurate figure. In this connection though selling your time is just a way to legaly sell your items online. (Items belong to the game producer, your time not)
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Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
If I was a game developer and people were willing to pay their hard earned cash to someone else who found a hard to find item in the game I created, I would be flattered. That means that people value part of the game enough to spend money on it. I would then take it further and help my players out by creating ebay and paypal services so that I could track fraud and protect the customers. I'd be providing incentive for people to play the game and sell items, as well as security for those who wish to buy items. I'd also make a little cash on the side of which I could use a large portion of it to prevent cheating and duping and make the game environment better for the long term health of the game. The more people that are so into the game that they're willing to buy items, the more of their friends they will bring in the game and thus increase my subscription revenue. The more people that see opportunity to play a game and get paid for it, the more people they will bring into the game and increase my subscription revenue. Sure, I'd lose a few of the hard core anti-ebayers who flat out refuse to play the game since it encourages RMT, but those losses would easily be made up by the other people attracted to the game.
I just wish the sony station exchange model had been applied to a different game. Sure, it was highly successful for EQ2, but EQ2 has a very small market share. If they did this with wow, all you anti-ebayers would find out just how much in the minority you really are. Sales through the system would be unbelievable. Easily in the hundreds of millions, if not BILLIONS would be transferred through that system. And if you really think about it, wow does not provide much incentive to sell and buy items. Imagine a Diablo 2 type game, with no bind on pickup. It would be phenomenal. Imagine how many jobs that type of system would create. It's really quite amazing if you can get off your high horse and look at it objectively. Suddenly, your "accomplishment" in a puny video game doesn't seem that important anymore. Well, that is, unless you're a selfish jerk who tries to force your morals on others. Doh, that's a lot of people in this thread. Sorry.
You can stick to your boring money grind while I get to the meat of the game.
Of course, I also think any game with such gameplay is crap and not worth playing, so I've never purchased gold. In fact, I've gotten fed up with MMORPGs and PC games enough that I've since moved to console gaming.
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Yes it is chance based but you can calculate how long you will need to get an item on average. With a lot of data you will get a very accurate figure. In this connection though selling your time is just a way to legaly sell your items online. (Items belong to the game producer, your time not)
So where do they list the hours it took them to get the gold and the exchange rate of those said hours? If I buy a shirt, I'm paying for the shirt, not the hours it took them to make it. People are, as much as they deny it, not really paying for the service, they're paying for the end result.
And zaxxxon, you're a generous soul, you are. But I'm not arguing about the SOE exchange or whatever, I'm arguing about the legality of outside sources. Because if RMT was going to run rampant on my game anyway, I'd sell the items to beat out all the RMTers, too.
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Yes it is chance based but you can calculate how long you will need to get an item on average. With a lot of data you will get a very accurate figure. In this connection though selling your time is just a way to legaly sell your items online. (Items belong to the game producer, your time not)
So where do they list the hours it took them to get the gold and the exchange rate of those said hours? If I buy a shirt, I'm paying for the shirt, not the hours it took them to make it. People are, as much as they deny it, not really paying for the service, they're paying for the end result.
And zaxxxon, you're a generous soul, you are. But I'm not arguing about the SOE exchange or whatever, I'm arguing about the legality of outside sources. Because if RMT was going to run rampant on my game anyway, I'd sell the items to beat out all the RMTers, too.
They don't have to advertise the hours it takes. What you aren't understanding is they are not and can not be selling the actual items. As they don't create the actual item. All they can do is sell the time took to aquire said item.
Think about it this way. If I was going to sell you a gold piece in RL I would need to go and mine the raw material, then turn it into the form you wanted to buy (say coin or bar). Or I could charge you to turn your raw material into the bar or coin. See the difference. The gold sellers are providing a service. They are not providing an actual product. Now if a Gold seller exploited the system hacked into say Blizzard's website and actually created 10,000,000 gold pieces in the code and then sold it. That would be illegal.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
I don't like them because they let the gaming companies exploit the hell out of their customers. They make some leet/unique items that can only be acquired by RMT and suddenly everyone has to buy one to stay competitive. And as soon as you want to squeeze some more cash out of your customers you make a new compulsory RMT item. MMO prices are scandalous enough as it is, what with shelf prices, monthly fees, and expansion packs. The last thing we need is the gaming company forcing us to pay more through RMT.
At least a 3rd party RMT store is just that - a 3rd party.
But like i said the best policy is through design. Make your game so that it does not encourage RMTing and avoid this crap altogether.
1- because you're rich
2- because playing the game itself is boring. the fun part is buying stuff instantly that it takes other players years to earn.
duh
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
There are some simple fixes to the problem:
1. Make money non tradeable.
2. Make money have a pack space weight. It would be impossible to stockpile all the money needed to be a gold farming company if say each character couldn't hold more then 5K gold in weight.
3. Make the game a true barter system with no money at all. There really isn't any reason to have money in the game. ( Asheron's Call was like this, although they had money it was totally worthless for most of the early games lifespan) If you want my +5 dmg enchantment either give me what I am looking for or find someone that will. This is less convenient, but it does stop all RMT for items and trade skills.
4. Take out all money sinks. Developers need to stop thinking that the way to keep people playing is by creating more grinds. Yeah you might keep that person a few extra months by creating a flying mount that needs 5K gold to buy. But in the long run you just alienate most of your playing base. The developers need to come up with more interesting things to do then grinding for money in the games. When was the last time you read in a fantasy book about the hero going out to grind mobs to get enough gold to get his fire resist potions so he could slay the dragon? That is why I am looking forward to the Bioware MMO. Hopefully they will get this right and finally make a MMO that is similar to a Single Player RPG with a great story, but also with a reason to be paying to play.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
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They don't have to advertise the hours it takes. What you aren't understanding is they are not and can not be selling the actual items. As they don't create the actual item. All they can do is sell the time took to aquire said item.
Think about it this way. If I was going to sell you a gold piece in RL I would need to go and mine the raw material, then turn it into the form you wanted to buy (say coin or bar). Or I could charge you to turn your raw material into the bar or coin. See the difference. The gold sellers are providing a service. They are not providing an actual product. Now if a Gold seller exploited the system hacked into say Blizzard's website and actually created 10,000,000 gold pieces in the code and then sold it. That would be illegal.
So by your example, this is the online equivalent of a crafter making a rare item. But here's the thing, the crafter didn't actually make the item. Unless your name is Second Life, it was already encoded within the system and all the crafter did was press a few buttons and get a few items to "create" it. But he did not texture or actually CREATE the item, it was made by someone else....
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They don't have to advertise the hours it takes. What you aren't understanding is they are not and can not be selling the actual items. As they don't create the actual item. All they can do is sell the time took to aquire said item.
Think about it this way. If I was going to sell you a gold piece in RL I would need to go and mine the raw material, then turn it into the form you wanted to buy (say coin or bar). Or I could charge you to turn your raw material into the bar or coin. See the difference. The gold sellers are providing a service. They are not providing an actual product. Now if a Gold seller exploited the system hacked into say Blizzard's website and actually created 10,000,000 gold pieces in the code and then sold it. That would be illegal.
So by your example, this is the online equivalent of a crafter making a rare item. But here's the thing, the crafter didn't actually make the item. Unless your name is Second Life, it was already encoded within the system and all the crafter did was press a few buttons and get a few items to "create" it. But he did not texture or actually CREATE the item, it was made by someone else.No it's not the same you keep missing the point. It is a service. Like if you went to a gas station that used to pump for you. The gas is more expensive. That extra price in gas was for the cost of the person pumping the gas for you. He didn't create the gas. He put the nozzle in your tank and pumped the gas. Just like a gold seller doesn't create the gold they put the gold in your mailbox or in your trade window. See the difference. They are selling a service. And unfortanetly MMO companies have no legal stand to stop them from selling a service. The only thing they can do is ban the accounts, because the gold sellers have no legal stand to be allowed to play the game.
See so it ends up a tough battle to fight. The gold sellers don't own the items so the company can take them away at anytime, but the company doesn't own your time so you can sell it willingly and they can not do anything about that.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
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...
...
They don't have to advertise the hours it takes. What you aren't understanding is they are not and can not be selling the actual items. As they don't create the actual item. All they can do is sell the time took to aquire said item.
Think about it this way. If I was going to sell you a gold piece in RL I would need to go and mine the raw material, then turn it into the form you wanted to buy (say coin or bar). Or I could charge you to turn your raw material into the bar or coin. See the difference. The gold sellers are providing a service. They are not providing an actual product. Now if a Gold seller exploited the system hacked into say Blizzard's website and actually created 10,000,000 gold pieces in the code and then sold it. That would be illegal.
So by your example, this is the online equivalent of a crafter making a rare item. But here's the thing, the crafter didn't actually make the item. Unless your name is Second Life, it was already encoded within the system and all the crafter did was press a few buttons and get a few items to "create" it. But he did not texture or actually CREATE the item, it was made by someone else.Antique dealers don't make antiques either but they do collect service fees for acquiring them and selling them to those interested and willing to pay...And for the record. Gold sellers do less damage to the economy of a game then Powergamers do. They are the ones who raise the prices on items. Most people that buy gold do so to get fixed goals (like an epic mount) and are buying items that are at a fixed price. Powergamers on the other hand will spend hundreds if not thousands of gold on their low level alts to have the best gear on them.
So really everyone should be mad at Powergamers. They are the root of the problem.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
It's a gray area. If you sell the time invested instead of the actual item they have no grounds legally to stop them. So for example instead of saying here is 100g for 20 bucks, instead I say ok it will take me X amounts of hours to go and farm you the money and that costs 20 bucks.
So they are providing a service and not selling a product.
I seriously don't see how that reason flew in court. I could take 1000 hours to get an apple, and try to sell it for $1000. No one would care or pay for that. For some rare items, it depends entirely on luck. It might only take someone the first try to get the item, and another person might spend a year trying to get it. But they'd both be only to sell it for roughly the same amount. No one's going to care about exactly how long it took him.
And on a certain RMT site, there's NOTHING detailing how long it took them to get the item or to make xxx amount of gil/gold. It just says something like "1,000 Gold=$10." No one's paying for the time, they're paying for the virtual items.
No, when you buy the apple, you're choosing to pay for everything that went into delivering that apple to you. Don't confuse economies of scale with competition. Gold farmers are making a resource available to those willing to pay for it.As for the other MMO's., I do believe there are several out there where most folks with some effort and patience can make quite a good living. EQ 2 I have seen that it is quite possible to make a grand living as a crafter. In WoW, you can actually craft and gain appropriate armor at each level without too much trouble. Now, with "Burning Crusade" it is possible at levels 60+ to earn anywhere from 10 to 50 gold per day doing quests in the new areas. I have a level 20 Blood Elf warlock that has earned over 10 gold in only 2 days of work. I project by the time he is level 40, he will easily have at least 50 gold or maybe even more if his jewel crafting does well! The book is still out on Vanguard as I haven't developed my character enough yet to see a trend.
I just think that you can level a character and make a living on a good MMO where the economy is fairer and more of a free enterprise system. Sure, there are plenty of Asian/Canadian/Euro/American gold farmers in most games, but with the exception of L2, I can live and level quite well without having to be bothered by purchasing video money for my toon!
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon
[QUOTE]No it's not the same you keep missing the point. It is a service. Like if you went to a gas station that used to pump for you. The gas is more expensive. That extra price in gas was for the cost of the person pumping the gas for you. He didn't create the gas. He put the nozzle in your tank and pumped the gas. Just like a gold seller doesn't create the gold they put the gold in your mailbox or in your trade window. See the difference. They are selling a service. And unfortanetly MMO companies have no legal stand to stop them from selling a service. The only thing they can do is ban the accounts, because the gold sellers have no legal stand to be allowed to play the game. [/QUOTE]
No, I know what you're talking about. But you're not just paying for the service, you're paying for the gas. The company pays them for the service. As for legal standing, I dunno. I'm reading this nice article http://law.richmond.edu/jolt/v13i2/article7.pdf about virtual property rights and it argues that the court may be swayed by the companys EULA. If the game's EULA states that players have no rights over virtual items or property or their characters, then they could ban said player for buying gold. I read about the BlackSnow v. Mythic Entertainment, and Blacksnow ended up skipping town before the case was finished so it would have been interesting to see who would have won that legal battle.
As for the antique dealer shop comparison, that would make more sense if you had to buy the items with real money first and then sell them to other players for the same money instead of virtual ones.
It doesn't matter why people buy gold. What matters is honoring the EULA. If the game doesn't allow it, then you are not entitled to do it. Buying gold or any other advantage with real money in a game which forbids it, is cheating.
Many gamers enjoy achieving and competing In a MMOG. In order for that aspect of the game to be fun, everyone must start on a level playing field and be restricted to the same access and environmental conditions. Thus, you have to earn your way in game with expended effort.
If you just don't like that type of game, or you are so restricted time wise in real life and feel left behind because of your time restrictions, then play a game that allows RMT influence. You are not entitled to ruin other gamers fun who are playing by the rules and have an expectation of a level playing field because of those rules. Only selfish aholes justify ruining another gamer's fun.
Just a reply to some of the posts..
I have no moral highground about buying gold, i will save them for real life. I would happily play with someone whos character had been created with currency which had been bought. There are many reasonable reasons to buy currency, although i would not do it myself (i would much rather find a new game than feel i had to buy money to feel happy with my character).Some reasons are more logical than others but i would never ostricise a player for making that decision.
I agree that it is up to the game developers to create a world where buying gold would be of no use. Having a level playing field should be an essential part of any game world. However looking at games like Lineage 11 and the number of bots then you have to wonder how much they really care (not much/at all,of course) too much money to be made. The economy is an essential and interesting part of MMOs i just hope that eventually that game world economics and real world economics can be made seperate, thats all.
I
Not everyone plays the game for this reason. So why should their fun be less just so someone else's fun can be more? What you are saying is that in order for you to get fun out of your achieving and competition that the person you are competing against needs to have achieved the same way as you. Why? How does it matter if it took you months to achieve something and it took them a couple of days. This is the biggest thing that is wrong with MMO's today. Everyone cares too much about what everyone else has etc. People shouldn't give a damn about what items other people have or how they achieved them. What does it matter if they spent the last 6 months achieving some uber sword of doom they killed you with or if it took them 1 click on the internet to get the same uber sword of doom?
Really what the problem boils down to is jealousy. People get jealous of what other people have and how they achieved it. Some of the people who buy gold are jealous of the people with better items then them. And some of the people who get those items the game way are jealous at the ease the gold buyers get their items. It's the same problem WoW has been having with Raiders versus Casuals. In a game there is no reason why both shouldn't be able to have the same exact items, but the raiders feel like they deserve it because they achieved it, when really they should want to raid out of the enjoyment of raiding or the challenge of beating the boss.
It really comes down to people need to enjoy the journey there not the destination. Of course some people won't do that and when they get old and are near death they will look around and see how lonely they are. People so focused on their achievements and things end up lonely dieing people and realize that none of it really meant anything.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
...
...
...
They don't have to advertise the hours it takes. What you aren't understanding is they are not and can not be selling the actual items. As they don't create the actual item. All they can do is sell the time took to aquire said item.
Think about it this way. If I was going to sell you a gold piece in RL I would need to go and mine the raw material, then turn it into the form you wanted to buy (say coin or bar). Or I could charge you to turn your raw material into the bar or coin. See the difference. The gold sellers are providing a service. They are not providing an actual product. Now if a Gold seller exploited the system hacked into say Blizzard's website and actually created 10,000,000 gold pieces in the code and then sold it. That would be illegal.
So by your example, this is the online equivalent of a crafter making a rare item. But here's the thing, the crafter didn't actually make the item. Unless your name is Second Life, it was already encoded within the system and all the crafter did was press a few buttons and get a few items to "create" it. But he did not texture or actually CREATE the item, it was made by someone else.No it's not the same you keep missing the point. It is a service. Like if you went to a gas station that used to pump for you. The gas is more expensive. That extra price in gas was for the cost of the person pumping the gas for you. He didn't create the gas. He put the nozzle in your tank and pumped the gas. Just like a gold seller doesn't create the gold they put the gold in your mailbox or in your trade window. See the difference. They are selling a service. And unfortanetly MMO companies have no legal stand to stop them from selling a service. The only thing they can do is ban the accounts, because the gold sellers have no legal stand to be allowed to play the game.
See so it ends up a tough battle to fight. The gold sellers don't own the items so the company can take them away at anytime, but the company doesn't own your time so you can sell it willingly and they can not do anything about that.
Legally this is pretty accurate. The gold sellers are, in reality, selling a service: it's essentially the time to acquire the virtual item. Instead of the player using his own time to get the gold, he pays someone else for their time. This is the main reason why gaming companies have not been able to shut down these sellers, even when they have tried to do so.
Of course that doesn't mean that the sellers have the "right" to do what they do -- that is a matter of contract between the game developers and the game users, and if it violates the terms of that contract (which it does in most games), then the sellers can get bounced for doing it, and they do get bounced. Now as we know this isn't terribly effective, because new accounts and new characters will simply be created to facilitate the service, and in fact the way that the bigger operations work is to have many characters available for farming because they assume some will be caught and banned -- it's a part of the business plan to have enough to be able to withstand bans coming along every now and then.
So basically, you folks need to get over it. It's not going away as long as these games feature money/ietm grinds which are RL time sinks, and offer ways to get around those time sinks through the purchase of currency. Games have started to change some of this. For example, WoW now has much, much more gear that is tied to reputation than it did before the recent expansion, and beyond using a powerlevelling service to rep grind for you, there isn't much of a help in buying currency for these items. Still, that's been more than offset by the introduction of a huge money sink in the flying mount (~5k gold!), and surely that is keeping the currency sellers well in the black during these months.