Come on he has given us some stuff that is pretty damaging to SOE.
ok i am not trying to sound like a smart eleck nor am i being sarcastic in any way but what damaging information has he given us? i have reread his posts and all he seems to say is that the NGE happened all on its own without employee input. no one introduced the idea of the NGE and nobody supported it. yet somehow magically it was coded and released. since on one worked on it or dreamed it up or coded it no one is to blame. yet somehow, it occured...
we must always ride the NGE developers when ever we can. this will ensure that no other MMO does what SOE/LA did. everytime we see their name in a new game, their envolvement in the NGE must be brought to attention. this is the only way we can be sure that the NGE will never occur in the future. i have foregiven, but i will never forget.
The only thing you are ensuring, is that developers are cutting off most comunication with their playerbase, and closing down game forums, since any and all attempt to have a constructive and rewarding dialouge is bound to fail, disappearing behind that massive wall of abuse and harassment of people that dont know when its time to stop. You cant be sure of another NGE, but you CAN be sure noone will tell you about it.
i tend to disagree. if a game developer thinks that drastic changes to an exsisting game may follow her around for years after, she might ensure that the "upgrade" is really an "upgrade" or choose not to do the "upgrade at all.
If they put Heliass, Torres, and Freeman on KOTOR3 I wouldn't buy it. And KOTOR 1 and 2 are two of my all time favorite games.
That's flat out awesomeness.
Because, see, what I do? I read reviews of a game. I play a demo. I see if I like it. Then I buy it, or I don't.
I don't have time in my life to waste hating developers. I don't have time to track where they have gone, and boycott their games. I play games to have fun. If a game allows me to have fun, I will play it. If it does not, I will stop. If a game allows me to have fun to a point, then stops, I will stop playing it then.
To deny yourself pleasure in order to some how thumb your nose at another person is something I cannot understand. Especially when that person will never ever know you thumbed your nose at them, and you don't get to play something that may well be awesome.
I know, I know - this is the Vet's Refuge, where bitterness flows thick in the blood of the true believers. I'm a Vet, and I miss old SWG - I miss it a lot. It's the reason my wife plays MMOs. I still have my guild on my AIM. I look at my old screenshots of my pets from time to time. But it's gone. It's like an ex-girlfriend. You may have enjoyed your time with her tremendously, but if every day you complain to your wife about what it used to be like with the ex, pretty soon you'll have an ex-girlfriend and an ex-wife.
The NGE is the ex-GF that cheated on you, and moved away. You can try to chase her down over and over, but she's gone.
Who am I? @Lorechaser on CoH Badjuju, Splinterhoof, Plainsrunner on WoW (Moonrunner) Shyy'rissk on SWG (Flurry) ClockworkSoldier, HE Pierce, Letnev on Planetside Gyshe, Crucible, Terrakal on DDO And many more.
The only thing you are ensuring, is that developers are cutting off most comunication with their playerbase, and closing down game forums, since any and all attempt to have a constructive and rewarding dialouge is bound to fail, disappearing behind that massive wall of abuse and harassment of people that dont know when its time to stop. You cant be sure of another NGE, but you CAN be sure noone will tell you about it.
i tend to disagree. if a game developer thinks that drastic changes to an exsisting game may follow her around for years after, she might ensure that the "upgrade" is really an "upgrade" or choose not to do the "upgrade at all.
J.Burton, world. World, J.Burton.
Devs have bills, families, and responsibilities. They don't up and quit because they disagree with changes. If they truly think the changes are an affront to humanity, and likely to sterilize small children, maybe they'll leave. But seeing as how they design video games for a living, and not, say, determine foreign policy, I think that's unlikely.
Oh, and the "follow them for years" thing is a lot more prevalent among the fanbase than the gaming industry. If you have a track record of producing bad games, it will catch up to you. But I somehow doubt Cryptic will look at someone's resume and say "Ohhh, you were at SOE during the NGE? I'm sorry. I don't think we can work with you."
Who am I? @Lorechaser on CoH Badjuju, Splinterhoof, Plainsrunner on WoW (Moonrunner) Shyy'rissk on SWG (Flurry) ClockworkSoldier, HE Pierce, Letnev on Planetside Gyshe, Crucible, Terrakal on DDO And many more.
Well, I donot have the patience of Jeff, so I see no reason to discuss with a mob without even a streak of common sense in their body. You go ahead, your imaginary accusations and twisting of words, putting comments in other peoples mouths is really helping your cause. Only thing you do is make yourself look a fool, and who am I to stop you. I am sure you dont care if developers ever talk to the players ever again, just as long as you can spew out some righteous wrath about things you made up yourself. Knock yerself out...
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force"
The only thing you are ensuring, is that developers are cutting off most comunication with their playerbase, and closing down game forums, since any and all attempt to have a constructive and rewarding dialouge is bound to fail, disappearing behind that massive wall of abuse and harassment of people that dont know when its time to stop. You cant be sure of another NGE, but you CAN be sure noone will tell you about it.
i tend to disagree. if a game developer thinks that drastic changes to an exsisting game may follow her around for years after, she might ensure that the "upgrade" is really an "upgrade" or choose not to do the "upgrade at all.
J.Burton, world. World, J.Burton.
Devs have bills, families, and responsibilities. They don't up and quit because they disagree with changes. If they truly think the changes are an affront to humanity, and likely to sterilize small children, maybe they'll leave. But seeing as how they design video games for a living, and not, say, determine foreign policy, I think that's unlikely.
Oh, and the "follow them for years" thing is a lot more prevalent among the fanbase than the gaming industry. If you have a track record of producing bad games, it will catch up to you. But I somehow doubt Cryptic will look at someone's resume and say "Ohhh, you were at SOE during the NGE? I'm sorry. I don't think we can work with you."
umm...i never said anything about them sterilizing small childern lol. i never even said anything about them quiting because they disagreed with the changes. Yes the fanbase will follow them around and hold them responsible. changes in games happen, i understand that. this situation may make sure that changes that occur are of a higher quality and higher ethical standard then the NGE was. That was all that i was saying. i actually respect Jeff more cause he came here. he didnt tell us much, but he still came.
Well, I donot have the patience of Jeff, so I see no reason to discuss with a mob without even a streak of common sense in their body. You go ahead, your imaginary accusations and twisting of words, putting comments in other peoples mouths is really helping your cause. Only thing you do is make yourself look a fool, and who am I to stop you. I am sure you dont care if developers ever talk to the players ever again, just as long as you can spew out some righteous wrath about things you made up yourself. Knock yerself out...
why you here and not kissing someone's developers ...
you sure mean with "care of developers" the love we get at sucker boards after we said whats wrong with NGE ,yea many Developer love there for me and for everyone who just wrote the word "PRE CU".
WHERE you was then Jeff ? Why dont you shared you thoughts THEN ?
Jeff gets here fully attention of the playerbase unlike me and others experienced as we shared our opinions at their sucker boards.
i am sure you ll find some Helliass quotes about player opinions and how he took care about, amusing.
last thing here from me :
Dundee is/was here because WE where DAMN RIGHT back then !!
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
About the only thing I got out of Freeman's posts is confirmation of what was the ONLY rationale for doing the NGE the way they did it:
The entire SWG playerbase was deliberately abandoned because they thought they could replace it with a new, larger one, that wouldn't be as demanding.
It's good to see that that kind of complete and utter lack of morals or ethics was not rewarded with success.
And the icing on the cake is that ALL they ended up left with are pre-NGE players and being forced to basically abandon the NGE more with each publish.
About the only thing I got out of Freeman's posts is confirmation of what was the ONLY rationale for doing the NGE the way they did it: The entire SWG playerbase was deliberately abandoned because they thought they could replace it with a new, larger one, that wouldn't be as demanding. It's good to see that that kind of complete and utter lack of morals or ethics was not rewarded with success. And the icing on the cake is that ALL they ended up left with are pre-NGE players and being forced to basically abandon the NGE more with each publish.
Even the ones who left for WoW are now returning to check out the game again, only to find it a shell of what it was. This makes me believe that the players left for different reasons then what SOE would have you believe. Few like this NGE!
The only thing you are ensuring, is that developers are cutting off most comunication with their playerbase, and closing down game forums, since any and all attempt to have a constructive and rewarding dialouge is bound to fail, disappearing behind that massive wall of abuse and harassment of people that dont know when its time to stop. You cant be sure of another NGE, but you CAN be sure noone will tell you about it.
i tend to disagree. if a game developer thinks that drastic changes to an exsisting game may follow her around for years after, she might ensure that the "upgrade" is really an "upgrade" or choose not to do the "upgrade at all.
J.Burton, world. World, J.Burton.
Devs have bills, families, and responsibilities. They don't up and quit because they disagree with changes. If they truly think the changes are an affront to humanity, and likely to sterilize small children, maybe they'll leave. But seeing as how they design video games for a living, and not, say, determine foreign policy, I think that's unlikely.
Oh, and the "follow them for years" thing is a lot more prevalent among the fanbase than the gaming industry. If you have a track record of producing bad games, it will catch up to you. But I somehow doubt Cryptic will look at someone's resume and say "Ohhh, you were at SOE during the NGE? I'm sorry. I don't think we can work with you."
umm...i never said anything about them sterilizing small childern lol. i never even said anything about them quiting because they disagreed with the changes. Yes the fanbase will follow them around and hold them responsible. changes in games happen, i understand that. this situation may make sure that changes that occur are of a higher quality and higher ethical standard then the NGE was. That was all that i was saying. i actually respect Jeff more cause he came here. he didnt tell us much, but he still came.
I would like to think that all of the bad press that the NGE got would stop this kind thing from happening to other games. I know there is no hope for offical pre cu servers. I'm not in to attacking the people responsible for the NGE because at this stage its pointless. Just like it is pointless to scream "ROLL BACK THE SERVERS" That SWG is most likely gone forever. I just hope that all of the crap that has been said (good and bad) doesnt fall on the deaf ears of some developer that is thinking about doing this kind of thing in hopes to get more players. Lets hope the industry has learned from this mistake.
ok i am not trying to sound like a smart eleck nor am i being sarcastic in any way but what damaging information has he given us? i have reread his posts and all he seems to say is that the NGE happened all on its own without employee input. no one introduced the idea of the NGE and nobody supported it. yet somehow magically it was coded and released. since on one worked on it or dreamed it up or coded it no one is to blame. yet somehow, it occured...
He confirmed for us that:
1. They new in advance we would hate it and many would quit over it, yet decided to go forward with it anyway;
2. That the NGE was an attempt to bring in a different set of players, even that many losing many of the existing players;
New information:
1. Some of the team knew that the NGE would be a failure, but SOE went ahead with the project anyway;
2 .Some of the team members asked to be taken off the team BECAUSE of the NGE!
[To me this is one of the most controversial and damaging peices of the information as it shows knowledge on the part of the team that not only what they were doing was a bad idea, they knew it was morally wrong, so much so, that more than individual at SOE didn't want to be a part of it. In that regard, SOE is more culpable than before we though before, because it rules out any possibility that SOE didn't understand they were screwing us over. ]
You can't honestly expect him to rat out his former co-wokers. Even assuming there isn't a NDA that prevents it, no one is going to do that voluntarily. You are talking about his colleagues and probably his friends. Just because he reaches different conclusions about the facts (ie who it is fair to blame the NGE for), we are better off getting his version of the inside facts, even if it means hearing conclusions we ultimately disagree with.
If they put Heliass, Torres, and Freeman on KOTOR3 I wouldn't buy it. And KOTOR 1 and 2 are two of my all time favorite games.
That's flat out awesomeness.
Because, see, what I do? I read reviews of a game. I play a demo. I see if I like it. Then I buy it, or I don't.
I don't have time in my life to waste hating developers. I don't have time to track where they have gone, and boycott their games. I play games to have fun. If a game allows me to have fun, I will play it. If it does not, I will stop. If a game allows me to have fun to a point, then stops, I will stop playing it then.
To deny yourself pleasure in order to some how thumb your nose at another person is something I cannot understand. Especially when that person will never ever know you thumbed your nose at them, and you don't get to play something that may well be awesome.
I know, I know - this is the Vet's Refuge, where bitterness flows thick in the blood of the true believers. I'm a Vet, and I miss old SWG - I miss it a lot. It's the reason my wife plays MMOs. I still have my guild on my AIM. I look at my old screenshots of my pets from time to time. But it's gone. It's like an ex-girlfriend. You may have enjoyed your time with her tremendously, but if every day you complain to your wife about what it used to be like with the ex, pretty soon you'll have an ex-girlfriend and an ex-wife.
The NGE is the ex-GF that cheated on you, and moved away. You can try to chase her down over and over, but she's gone.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
If they put Heliass, Torres, and Freeman on KOTOR3 I wouldn't buy it. And KOTOR 1 and 2 are two of my all time favorite games.
That's flat out awesomeness.
Because, see, what I do? I read reviews of a game. I play a demo. I see if I like it. Then I buy it, or I don't.
I don't have time in my life to waste hating developers. I don't have time to track where they have gone, and boycott their games. I play games to have fun. If a game allows me to have fun, I will play it. If it does not, I will stop. If a game allows me to have fun to a point, then stops, I will stop playing it then.
To deny yourself pleasure in order to some how thumb your nose at another person is something I cannot understand. Especially when that person will never ever know you thumbed your nose at them, and you don't get to play something that may well be awesome.
I know, I know - this is the Vet's Refuge, where bitterness flows thick in the blood of the true believers. I'm a Vet, and I miss old SWG - I miss it a lot. It's the reason my wife plays MMOs. I still have my guild on my AIM. I look at my old screenshots of my pets from time to time. But it's gone. It's like an ex-girlfriend. You may have enjoyed your time with her tremendously, but if every day you complain to your wife about what it used to be like with the ex, pretty soon you'll have an ex-girlfriend and an ex-wife.
The NGE is the ex-GF that cheated on you, and moved away. You can try to chase her down over and over, but she's gone.
How very Zen and ADD of you.
If you don't have time to waste then you should have every reason to be wary of unethical behavior of a company that has a product you invest so much time in. That's called being a smart consumer. You may not think still talking about it almost a year and a half later is rational, but it's no less rational than the advertisement I saw the other day from SOE for SWG. Sony is fighting their battles, and the people wronged by Sony are still fighting theirs. What's not to understand?
You buy some legos, you start building the empire state building, it takes you awhile, but finally you get almost to the part where you can hang your King Kong action figure. Someone from the Lego company comes running by and tackles your empire, crashing it to the ground. A significant amount of achievement reduced to nothing in a matter of seconds. Now a Zen Buddhist such as yourself (well from what I gather from your response) would laugh uncontrollably at the irony of it all and pick up that first block and start over.
Guess what...Most people don't appreciate the irony of a situation like that. Would it be a better world if they did? Maybe, maybe not. What your failing to understand is people attach a type of pride to their achievements whatever they may be and they are understandably upset when those achievements are belittled or destroyed. Most people in the world understand this. Apparently the fine folks at Sony do not. To each his own.
But, understand this, the bitterness flowing thick may be nothing more than tit for tat on a cosmic joke gone horribly wrong, oh enlightened one. A joke where the only humor is found in those who fail to see that others dare to dream about the day they can hang their King Kong action figure on the top of the lego Empire State Building. Punishing those who dare try to knock it down.
Now all the woo woo bullshit aside. I appreciate Jeff coming here and giving his side of things regardless of what some may think of his intentions. His involvement in any future projects I may be interested in will definitely be cause for a double take. That, of course, being the penalty for his involvement in the whole situation. It does not mean that I will automatically throw aside any intentions on purchasing a product with his name in the credits. In time, I may come to 90% trust him again (of course, 90% being the top most you should ever accord anyone in this industry). His actually coming here has helped me at least a little to understand his point of view. I believe that is all he was trying to accomplish, and I do not blame him one bit.
i got out of it that the primary reason folks are still angry is because it was allowed to happen in the first place. We learned no real new information . We knew many of the folks working on the game 6 months before NGE, were not into sandbox games but prefered another type of game. We also saw alot of angst against SOE and Sony.
I do not think we will ever get the answers we need but at the same time many of us moved on. I also think there will be long term fall out for the company, in terms of players lack of trust that in any of their games they could do it again.
Perhaps the only thing that thread did was help him move on and let go.
We were a community before he came and still a community after he left. Even if we are not current subscribers.
If they put Heliass, Torres, and Freeman on KOTOR3 I wouldn't buy it. And KOTOR 1 and 2 are two of my all time favorite games.
That's flat out awesomeness.
Because, see, what I do? I read reviews of a game. I play a demo. I see if I like it. Then I buy it, or I don't.
I don't have time in my life to waste hating developers. I don't have time to track where they have gone, and boycott their games. I play games to have fun. If a game allows me to have fun, I will play it. If it does not, I will stop. If a game allows me to have fun to a point, then stops, I will stop playing it then.
To deny yourself pleasure in order to some how thumb your nose at another person is something I cannot understand. Especially when that person will never ever know you thumbed your nose at them, and you don't get to play something that may well be awesome.
I know, I know - this is the Vet's Refuge, where bitterness flows thick in the blood of the true believers. I'm a Vet, and I miss old SWG - I miss it a lot. It's the reason my wife plays MMOs. I still have my guild on my AIM. I look at my old screenshots of my pets from time to time. But it's gone. It's like an ex-girlfriend. You may have enjoyed your time with her tremendously, but if every day you complain to your wife about what it used to be like with the ex, pretty soon you'll have an ex-girlfriend and an ex-wife.
The NGE is the ex-GF that cheated on you, and moved away. You can try to chase her down over and over, but she's gone.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke
"All that is necessary..."
There you've summed up the entire problem with everything that happened with SWG. SOE puts out this saga of epic goodversus evil based on one of the greatest stories of our time...and everything good about it is methodically destroyed. So many players saw this game as a chance to be their childhood heroes. Destroying peoples dreams and memories is dangerous stuff, especially for companies who peddle dreams. I don't believe SOE sees that, even a little bit. I sincerely hope it is their ultimate undoing.
The problem isnt the mistake and unethical decision that is the NGE. The problem is the "real" unethical mistake they are making by not making up for the NGE and the actual harm and suffering it caused to a Whole lot of people. I dont think those people should be in the game making business. Not the people who made the NGE, but the people who wont make up for it. No good can come from playing a game made by them, and i would keep children away from them. No kids allowed to play SOE games in my house:)
No its not. Not here. Originally perhaps, but not here, in this forum, right now. Pretty much everyone that took a crushing blow to their characters, and three four years of work, building a perfect existence in a virtual world has done the same as that. They avoid SOE, they dont want to give money to a company and so on and so forth, and there is nothing wrong with that. My friends do the same and I have all the understanding in the world for it. I also know that if my friends met this man, they would take a beer (Well, not Harald.. he dont drink. Maybe a coke, then) with him and and sigh a bit, making a toast to what once was. He was there... That does not make him Professor Moriarty.
What is wrong here is a pile of people attacking and harassing a single person, the ONLY one with enough guts, honesty, backbone and decensy to stand up and with a loud clear voice say: "I was there.. It was not funny, but hey, if I can help you understand some of it, then I will" trying to put all the blame on him, NOT because he was singelehandedly responsible.. but because he is there to attack.
It has turned from a few unhappy campers with all the right in the world to be upset, into a flipping mob of tards, trying to hang any innocent person they can find, not because he is guilty, but because he is present. So dont think he is the problem. He is not the solution either, you wont get your characters back, your game back or your lives back by attacking him. Just try to show some decency, becuase as people behave right now, you dont deserve to be respected, listened to or heck, you dont even deserve your game back.
I think people are showing him the same decency he showed them back in '05. I know its sad, but, whats the Golden Rule again? Do unto others as.....
Dont get me wrong..i agree with alot of what you say. I even like Dundee..both as a developer and a gamer. I'd definately even try a game just because he's on it (unless its SOE) because he has been a dev on the 2 best MMO's ever. and that alone is enough to get me to try a game, even get excited about it. Unfortunately, Jeff took the bait in some instances, and you get what we have here today...a failure to communicate. some men....you...just...can't...reach.
The only person i would "blame" is John Smedley. Because he is the only person to blame. This was his fault. It's sad that he let Jeff take so much heat and blame. It's a wonder that Jeff hasnt returned the favor. He's a better man than I.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
What is Jeff trying to accomplish by posting here? Anyone know? He of all people should know that SWG refugees and devs don't play nicely together yet he pretends to be surprised with some of the flack he gets in here. Is this some kind of sick and twisted pleasure fulfillment for him, or is he just trying to make it look like it’s the SWG refugees who are totally unreasonable?
At first, just to respond to the way this blog post had been misinterpreted and misrepresented.
Not to deny that I had anything to do with any part of the NGE, but just to clarify that my role in it was not what that post had been misunderstood to mean.
But then there are some other incorrect assumptions and the like here, too; and even with an NDA preventing me from saying too much, it is pretty easy to just correct some other misinformation while I'm here.
Answering questions much as I can, which maybe have nothing to do with why I came here originally and don't advance any agenda. Just because it seems like a nice thing to do. And not just to try and fool you into thinking I'm a nice guy.
I'm a forum poster kind of person. I have been since BBSs, even before Fidonet; then on Usenet before web forums took off. Now on web forums, so here too.
about 7,540 for group:rec.games.computer.ultima.online author:dundee
I apologize in advance for everything I ever posted there...
Anyway.
Most here have been extremely reasonable. There are just a few who only semi-reasonable to me (because no matter what, there's some degree of reason in being pissed at me), and only some of those are unreasonable to other posters here.
So that's not many at all.
I've gotten a lot of positive feedback in PMs, from people who don't want all the flack they'd get for posting something positive publicly.
Even most negative responses have been reasonable to me, though. The very few unreasonable people here are mostly unreasonable to you.
What is Jeff trying to accomplish by posting here? Anyone know? He of all people should know that SWG refugees and devs don't play nicely together yet he pretends to be surprised with some of the flack he gets in here. Is this some kind of sick and twisted pleasure fulfillment for him, or is he just trying to make it look like it’s the SWG refugees who are totally unreasonable?
At first, just to respond to the way this blog post had been misinterpreted and misrepresented.
Not to deny that I had anything to do with any part of the NGE, but just to clarify that my role in it was not what that post had been misunderstood to mean.
But then there are some other incorrect assumptions and the like here, too; and even with an NDA preventing me from saying too much, it is pretty easy to just correct some other misinformation while I'm here.
Answering questions much as I can, which maybe have nothing to do with why I came here originally and don't advance any agenda. Just because it seems like a nice thing to do. And not just to try and fool you into thinking I'm a nice guy.
I'm a forum poster kind of person. I have been since BBSs, even before Fidonet; then on Usenet before web forums took off. Now on web forums, so here too.
about 7,540 for group:rec.games.computer.ultima.online author:dundee
I apologize in advance for everything I ever posted there...
Anyway.
Most here have been extremely reasonable. There are just a few who only semi-reasonable to me (because no matter what, there's some degree of reason in being pissed at me), and only some of those are unreasonable to other posters here.
So that's not many at all.
I've gotten a lot of positive feedback in PMs, from people who don't want all the flack they'd get for posting something positive publicly.
Even most negative responses have been reasonable to me, though. The very few unreasonable people here are mostly unreasonable to you.
For me it was a Q&A session that for me personally answered alot of questions i had..I formed my own opinion about the situation and am fine and dandy with it..Now i dont need to PM you to give you positive feedback i can do it here..You took the time to answer my questions ,and some may have not been what i wanted to read and others were what i had allready figured out..So just like you i enjoy Forum PVP(thats posting debates) Im not your enemy..I do have more respect for you now you took your licks and kept on a posting..But all names involved with teh NGE and SWG will have to earn my trust back before i ever purchase another product from them..Mainly the MMO type games will be harder for me to want to invest time and money in..No worries all of them are quick loot raid rinse repeat clones now anyway..
I view it as well you guys made a huge mistake..BIG WOOOP your human and you screw up just like everyone else does..But doesnt mean ill forget how i was treated nore that my input in beta or live went unheard..That my time and money wasnt good enough for SOE...So i vote with my dollars and will continue to be more carefull about games i buy based on the teams/company behind them..I have a Love/Hate relationship with SWG..i used to love it when it was unique and fun and i hate it now that its a bad WoWEQDarkforces clone..Oh wonder how many more games will try to Be WoW when i think the market will want more depth..It just has to be polished and not a polished turd...
The problem isnt the mistake and unethical decision that is the NGE. The problem is the "real" unethical mistake they are making by not making up for the NGE and the actual harm and suffering it caused to a Whole lot of people. I dont think those people should be in the game making business. Not the people who made the NGE, but the people who wont make up for it. No good can come from playing a game made by them, and i would keep children away from them. No kids allowed to play SOE games in my house:)
So does that mean when SOE buys everyone out, your going to stop playing games?
One; the way Sony is losing money I dont feel they'll have the capital to buy every game out.
Two: Yes I'd stop playing games. <period>
Three: I dont foster anger as much as I used to at Dundee. However I still wont buy one title that has his name on it. Nor will I buy any title that has Helios, Torres, Smed, Sony or Lucas Arts anymore. Does that possibly make it where I miss out on some fun games. Possibly, but really anyone with common sense should have seen what the future had to hold when they cut out everyones accomplishments in the game.
Also Dundee I dont harbor any ill will toward you, I really hope you do, do well in the future. I know the above paragraph seems like I do, but really it's far from the truth. I'm sure a lot of others dont hold the borderline personality I possess .
If they put Heliass, Torres, and Freeman on KOTOR3 I wouldn't buy it. And KOTOR 1 and 2 are two of my all time favorite games.
To deny yourself pleasure in order to some how thumb your nose at another person is something I cannot understand. Especially when that person will never ever know you thumbed your nose at them, and you don't get to play something that may well be awesome.
I
They'd know if the sales weren't there. True personally knowing only 1 person that didn't buy it because of the name of devs wouldn't happen but 200K people not buying because of the same reason might get some attention. Look at the Dixie Chicks they dont know individuals that wont buy they're stuff but their pocket book sure did.
Look at the Dixie Chicks they dont know individuals that wont buy they're stuff but their pocket book sure did.
Most of the Dixie Chicks fans were from metropolitan areas, so their sales weren't hurt nearly as much as many thought they would be. Turns out there are lots of country fans in New York and the like that loved what they did.
Just saying
Currently playing: LOTRO, Rift (beta) and WoW (on occasion)
All I heard from his end was something along the lines....
"It wasn't me, well... okay I was one and so what...... I was a Dev for the game you loved.... oh and yea I helped regress it to something you never ever want to play again .... but just be happy that I act like I answer you..... I learned to have zero scruples from Smedley and Torres.... not my fault.... lie lie lie... deny deny deny !! "
That is what I am "feeling" from this whole thing anyway.
"SWG was a world, now it's just a game" -adamrk-
"When the game was good, you didn't have to ask where the population was, because it was everywhere. When the game was good you didn't have to ask which server had population, because they all did. When the game was good you didn't have to beg friends to give it a try, because they were already playing. " - Salty Pete
Comments
The only thing you are ensuring, is that developers are cutting off most comunication with their playerbase, and closing down game forums, since any and all attempt to have a constructive and rewarding dialouge is bound to fail, disappearing behind that massive wall of abuse and harassment of people that dont know when its time to stop. You cant be sure of another NGE, but you CAN be sure noone will tell you about it.
i tend to disagree. if a game developer thinks that drastic changes to an exsisting game may follow her around for years after, she might ensure that the "upgrade" is really an "upgrade" or choose not to do the "upgrade at all.
That's flat out awesomeness.
Because, see, what I do? I read reviews of a game. I play a demo. I see if I like it. Then I buy it, or I don't.
I don't have time in my life to waste hating developers. I don't have time to track where they have gone, and boycott their games. I play games to have fun. If a game allows me to have fun, I will play it. If it does not, I will stop. If a game allows me to have fun to a point, then stops, I will stop playing it then.
To deny yourself pleasure in order to some how thumb your nose at another person is something I cannot understand. Especially when that person will never ever know you thumbed your nose at them, and you don't get to play something that may well be awesome.
I know, I know - this is the Vet's Refuge, where bitterness flows thick in the blood of the true believers. I'm a Vet, and I miss old SWG - I miss it a lot. It's the reason my wife plays MMOs. I still have my guild on my AIM. I look at my old screenshots of my pets from time to time. But it's gone. It's like an ex-girlfriend. You may have enjoyed your time with her tremendously, but if every day you complain to your wife about what it used to be like with the ex, pretty soon you'll have an ex-girlfriend and an ex-wife.
The NGE is the ex-GF that cheated on you, and moved away. You can try to chase her down over and over, but she's gone.
Who am I?
@Lorechaser on CoH
Badjuju, Splinterhoof, Plainsrunner on WoW (Moonrunner)
Shyy'rissk on SWG (Flurry)
ClockworkSoldier, HE Pierce, Letnev on Planetside
Gyshe, Crucible, Terrakal on DDO
And many more.
J.Burton, world. World, J.Burton.
Devs have bills, families, and responsibilities. They don't up and quit because they disagree with changes. If they truly think the changes are an affront to humanity, and likely to sterilize small children, maybe they'll leave. But seeing as how they design video games for a living, and not, say, determine foreign policy, I think that's unlikely.
Oh, and the "follow them for years" thing is a lot more prevalent among the fanbase than the gaming industry. If you have a track record of producing bad games, it will catch up to you. But I somehow doubt Cryptic will look at someone's resume and say "Ohhh, you were at SOE during the NGE? I'm sorry. I don't think we can work with you."
Who am I?
@Lorechaser on CoH
Badjuju, Splinterhoof, Plainsrunner on WoW (Moonrunner)
Shyy'rissk on SWG (Flurry)
ClockworkSoldier, HE Pierce, Letnev on Planetside
Gyshe, Crucible, Terrakal on DDO
And many more.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"
J.Burton, world. World, J.Burton.
Devs have bills, families, and responsibilities. They don't up and quit because they disagree with changes. If they truly think the changes are an affront to humanity, and likely to sterilize small children, maybe they'll leave. But seeing as how they design video games for a living, and not, say, determine foreign policy, I think that's unlikely.
Oh, and the "follow them for years" thing is a lot more prevalent among the fanbase than the gaming industry. If you have a track record of producing bad games, it will catch up to you. But I somehow doubt Cryptic will look at someone's resume and say "Ohhh, you were at SOE during the NGE? I'm sorry. I don't think we can work with you."
umm...i never said anything about them sterilizing small childern lol. i never even said anything about them quiting because they disagreed with the changes. Yes the fanbase will follow them around and hold them responsible. changes in games happen, i understand that. this situation may make sure that changes that occur are of a higher quality and higher ethical standard then the NGE was. That was all that i was saying. i actually respect Jeff more cause he came here. he didnt tell us much, but he still came.
you sure mean with "care of developers" the love we get at sucker boards after we said whats wrong with NGE ,yea many Developer love there for me and for everyone who just wrote the word "PRE CU".
WHERE you was then Jeff ? Why dont you shared you thoughts THEN ?
Jeff gets here fully attention of the playerbase unlike me and others experienced as we shared our opinions at their sucker boards.
i am sure you ll find some Helliass quotes about player opinions and how he took care about, amusing.
last thing here from me :
Dundee is/was here because WE where DAMN RIGHT back then !!
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
About the only thing I got out of Freeman's posts is confirmation of what was the ONLY rationale for doing the NGE the way they did it:
The entire SWG playerbase was deliberately abandoned because they thought they could replace it with a new, larger one, that wouldn't be as demanding.
It's good to see that that kind of complete and utter lack of morals or ethics was not rewarded with success.
And the icing on the cake is that ALL they ended up left with are pre-NGE players and being forced to basically abandon the NGE more with each publish.
J.Burton, world. World, J.Burton.
Devs have bills, families, and responsibilities. They don't up and quit because they disagree with changes. If they truly think the changes are an affront to humanity, and likely to sterilize small children, maybe they'll leave. But seeing as how they design video games for a living, and not, say, determine foreign policy, I think that's unlikely.
Oh, and the "follow them for years" thing is a lot more prevalent among the fanbase than the gaming industry. If you have a track record of producing bad games, it will catch up to you. But I somehow doubt Cryptic will look at someone's resume and say "Ohhh, you were at SOE during the NGE? I'm sorry. I don't think we can work with you."
umm...i never said anything about them sterilizing small childern lol. i never even said anything about them quiting because they disagreed with the changes. Yes the fanbase will follow them around and hold them responsible. changes in games happen, i understand that. this situation may make sure that changes that occur are of a higher quality and higher ethical standard then the NGE was. That was all that i was saying. i actually respect Jeff more cause he came here. he didnt tell us much, but he still came.
I would like to think that all of the bad press that the NGE got would stop this kind thing from happening to other games. I know there is no hope for offical pre cu servers. I'm not in to attacking the people responsible for the NGE because at this stage its pointless. Just like it is pointless to scream "ROLL BACK THE SERVERS" That SWG is most likely gone forever. I just hope that all of the crap that has been said (good and bad) doesnt fall on the deaf ears of some developer that is thinking about doing this kind of thing in hopes to get more players. Lets hope the industry has learned from this mistake.
He confirmed for us that:
1. They new in advance we would hate it and many would quit over it, yet decided to go forward with it anyway;
2. That the NGE was an attempt to bring in a different set of players, even that many losing many of the existing players;
New information:
1. Some of the team knew that the NGE would be a failure, but SOE went ahead with the project anyway;
2 .Some of the team members asked to be taken off the team BECAUSE of the NGE!
[To me this is one of the most controversial and damaging peices of the information as it shows knowledge on the part of the team that not only what they were doing was a bad idea, they knew it was morally wrong, so much so, that more than individual at SOE didn't want to be a part of it. In that regard, SOE is more culpable than before we though before, because it rules out any possibility that SOE didn't understand they were screwing us over. ]
You can't honestly expect him to rat out his former co-wokers. Even assuming there isn't a NDA that prevents it, no one is going to do that voluntarily. You are talking about his colleagues and probably his friends. Just because he reaches different conclusions about the facts (ie who it is fair to blame the NGE for), we are better off getting his version of the inside facts, even if it means hearing conclusions we ultimately disagree with.
That's flat out awesomeness.
Because, see, what I do? I read reviews of a game. I play a demo. I see if I like it. Then I buy it, or I don't.
I don't have time in my life to waste hating developers. I don't have time to track where they have gone, and boycott their games. I play games to have fun. If a game allows me to have fun, I will play it. If it does not, I will stop. If a game allows me to have fun to a point, then stops, I will stop playing it then.
To deny yourself pleasure in order to some how thumb your nose at another person is something I cannot understand. Especially when that person will never ever know you thumbed your nose at them, and you don't get to play something that may well be awesome.
I know, I know - this is the Vet's Refuge, where bitterness flows thick in the blood of the true believers. I'm a Vet, and I miss old SWG - I miss it a lot. It's the reason my wife plays MMOs. I still have my guild on my AIM. I look at my old screenshots of my pets from time to time. But it's gone. It's like an ex-girlfriend. You may have enjoyed your time with her tremendously, but if every day you complain to your wife about what it used to be like with the ex, pretty soon you'll have an ex-girlfriend and an ex-wife.
The NGE is the ex-GF that cheated on you, and moved away. You can try to chase her down over and over, but she's gone.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
That's flat out awesomeness.
Because, see, what I do? I read reviews of a game. I play a demo. I see if I like it. Then I buy it, or I don't.
I don't have time in my life to waste hating developers. I don't have time to track where they have gone, and boycott their games. I play games to have fun. If a game allows me to have fun, I will play it. If it does not, I will stop. If a game allows me to have fun to a point, then stops, I will stop playing it then.
To deny yourself pleasure in order to some how thumb your nose at another person is something I cannot understand. Especially when that person will never ever know you thumbed your nose at them, and you don't get to play something that may well be awesome.
I know, I know - this is the Vet's Refuge, where bitterness flows thick in the blood of the true believers. I'm a Vet, and I miss old SWG - I miss it a lot. It's the reason my wife plays MMOs. I still have my guild on my AIM. I look at my old screenshots of my pets from time to time. But it's gone. It's like an ex-girlfriend. You may have enjoyed your time with her tremendously, but if every day you complain to your wife about what it used to be like with the ex, pretty soon you'll have an ex-girlfriend and an ex-wife.
The NGE is the ex-GF that cheated on you, and moved away. You can try to chase her down over and over, but she's gone.
How very Zen and ADD of you.
If you don't have time to waste then you should have every reason to be wary of unethical behavior of a company that has a product you invest so much time in. That's called being a smart consumer. You may not think still talking about it almost a year and a half later is rational, but it's no less rational than the advertisement I saw the other day from SOE for SWG. Sony is fighting their battles, and the people wronged by Sony are still fighting theirs. What's not to understand?
You buy some legos, you start building the empire state building, it takes you awhile, but finally you get almost to the part where you can hang your King Kong action figure. Someone from the Lego company comes running by and tackles your empire, crashing it to the ground. A significant amount of achievement reduced to nothing in a matter of seconds. Now a Zen Buddhist such as yourself (well from what I gather from your response) would laugh uncontrollably at the irony of it all and pick up that first block and start over.
Guess what...Most people don't appreciate the irony of a situation like that. Would it be a better world if they did? Maybe, maybe not. What your failing to understand is people attach a type of pride to their achievements whatever they may be and they are understandably upset when those achievements are belittled or destroyed. Most people in the world understand this. Apparently the fine folks at Sony do not. To each his own.
But, understand this, the bitterness flowing thick may be nothing more than tit for tat on a cosmic joke gone horribly wrong, oh enlightened one. A joke where the only humor is found in those who fail to see that others dare to dream about the day they can hang their King Kong action figure on the top of the lego Empire State Building. Punishing those who dare try to knock it down.
Now all the woo woo bullshit aside. I appreciate Jeff coming here and giving his side of things regardless of what some may think of his intentions. His involvement in any future projects I may be interested in will definitely be cause for a double take. That, of course, being the penalty for his involvement in the whole situation. It does not mean that I will automatically throw aside any intentions on purchasing a product with his name in the credits. In time, I may come to 90% trust him again (of course, 90% being the top most you should ever accord anyone in this industry). His actually coming here has helped me at least a little to understand his point of view. I believe that is all he was trying to accomplish, and I do not blame him one bit.
I do not think we will ever get the answers we need but at the same time many of us moved on. I also think there will be long term fall out for the company, in terms of players lack of trust that in any of their games they could do it again.
Perhaps the only thing that thread did was help him move on and let go.
We were a community before he came and still a community after he left. Even if we are not current subscribers.
That's flat out awesomeness.
Because, see, what I do? I read reviews of a game. I play a demo. I see if I like it. Then I buy it, or I don't.
I don't have time in my life to waste hating developers. I don't have time to track where they have gone, and boycott their games. I play games to have fun. If a game allows me to have fun, I will play it. If it does not, I will stop. If a game allows me to have fun to a point, then stops, I will stop playing it then.
To deny yourself pleasure in order to some how thumb your nose at another person is something I cannot understand. Especially when that person will never ever know you thumbed your nose at them, and you don't get to play something that may well be awesome.
I know, I know - this is the Vet's Refuge, where bitterness flows thick in the blood of the true believers. I'm a Vet, and I miss old SWG - I miss it a lot. It's the reason my wife plays MMOs. I still have my guild on my AIM. I look at my old screenshots of my pets from time to time. But it's gone. It's like an ex-girlfriend. You may have enjoyed your time with her tremendously, but if every day you complain to your wife about what it used to be like with the ex, pretty soon you'll have an ex-girlfriend and an ex-wife.
The NGE is the ex-GF that cheated on you, and moved away. You can try to chase her down over and over, but she's gone.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke
"All that is necessary..."
There you've summed up the entire problem with everything that happened with SWG. SOE puts out this saga of epic goodversus evil based on one of the greatest stories of our time...and everything good about it is methodically destroyed. So many players saw this game as a chance to be their childhood heroes. Destroying peoples dreams and memories is dangerous stuff, especially for companies who peddle dreams. I don't believe SOE sees that, even a little bit. I sincerely hope it is their ultimate undoing.
No its not. Not here. Originally perhaps, but not here, in this forum, right now. Pretty much everyone that took a crushing blow to their characters, and three four years of work, building a perfect existence in a virtual world has done the same as that. They avoid SOE, they dont want to give money to a company and so on and so forth, and there is nothing wrong with that. My friends do the same and I have all the understanding in the world for it. I also know that if my friends met this man, they would take a beer (Well, not Harald.. he dont drink. Maybe a coke, then) with him and and sigh a bit, making a toast to what once was. He was there... That does not make him Professor Moriarty.
What is wrong here is a pile of people attacking and harassing a single person, the ONLY one with enough guts, honesty, backbone and decensy to stand up and with a loud clear voice say: "I was there.. It was not funny, but hey, if I can help you understand some of it, then I will" trying to put all the blame on him, NOT because he was singelehandedly responsible.. but because he is there to attack.
It has turned from a few unhappy campers with all the right in the world to be upset, into a flipping mob of tards, trying to hang any innocent person they can find, not because he is guilty, but because he is present. So dont think he is the problem. He is not the solution either, you wont get your characters back, your game back or your lives back by attacking him. Just try to show some decency, becuase as people behave right now, you dont deserve to be respected, listened to or heck, you dont even deserve your game back.
I think people are showing him the same decency he showed them back in '05. I know its sad, but, whats the Golden Rule again? Do unto others as.....
Dont get me wrong..i agree with alot of what you say. I even like Dundee..both as a developer and a gamer. I'd definately even try a game just because he's on it (unless its SOE) because he has been a dev on the 2 best MMO's ever. and that alone is enough to get me to try a game, even get excited about it. Unfortunately, Jeff took the bait in some instances, and you get what we have here today...a failure to communicate. some men....you...just...can't...reach.
The only person i would "blame" is John Smedley. Because he is the only person to blame. This was his fault. It's sad that he let Jeff take so much heat and blame. It's a wonder that Jeff hasnt returned the favor. He's a better man than I.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Not to deny that I had anything to do with any part of the NGE, but just to clarify that my role in it was not what that post had been misunderstood to mean.
But then there are some other incorrect assumptions and the like here, too; and even with an NDA preventing me from saying too much, it is pretty easy to just correct some other misinformation while I'm here.
Answering questions much as I can, which maybe have nothing to do with why I came here originally and don't advance any agenda. Just because it seems like a nice thing to do. And not just to try and fool you into thinking I'm a nice guy.
I'm a forum poster kind of person. I have been since BBSs, even before Fidonet; then on Usenet before web forums took off. Now on web forums, so here too.
I apologize in advance for everything I ever posted there...
Anyway.
Most here have been extremely reasonable. There are just a few who only semi-reasonable to me (because no matter what, there's some degree of reason in being pissed at me), and only some of those are unreasonable to other posters here.
So that's not many at all.
I've gotten a lot of positive feedback in PMs, from people who don't want all the flack they'd get for posting something positive publicly.
Even most negative responses have been reasonable to me, though. The very few unreasonable people here are mostly unreasonable to you.
Jeff Freeman
Jeff Freeman
Oh yeah, thats it. Thanks for reminding me.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Not to deny that I had anything to do with any part of the NGE, but just to clarify that my role in it was not what that post had been misunderstood to mean.
But then there are some other incorrect assumptions and the like here, too; and even with an NDA preventing me from saying too much, it is pretty easy to just correct some other misinformation while I'm here.
Answering questions much as I can, which maybe have nothing to do with why I came here originally and don't advance any agenda. Just because it seems like a nice thing to do. And not just to try and fool you into thinking I'm a nice guy.
I'm a forum poster kind of person. I have been since BBSs, even before Fidonet; then on Usenet before web forums took off. Now on web forums, so here too.
I apologize in advance for everything I ever posted there...
Anyway.
Most here have been extremely reasonable. There are just a few who only semi-reasonable to me (because no matter what, there's some degree of reason in being pissed at me), and only some of those are unreasonable to other posters here.
So that's not many at all.
I've gotten a lot of positive feedback in PMs, from people who don't want all the flack they'd get for posting something positive publicly.
Even most negative responses have been reasonable to me, though. The very few unreasonable people here are mostly unreasonable to you.
For me it was a Q&A session that for me personally answered alot of questions i had..I formed my own opinion about the situation and am fine and dandy with it..Now i dont need to PM you to give you positive feedback i can do it here..You took the time to answer my questions ,and some may have not been what i wanted to read and others were what i had allready figured out..So just like you i enjoy Forum PVP(thats posting debates) Im not your enemy..I do have more respect for you now you took your licks and kept on a posting..But all names involved with teh NGE and SWG will have to earn my trust back before i ever purchase another product from them..Mainly the MMO type games will be harder for me to want to invest time and money in..No worries all of them are quick loot raid rinse repeat clones now anyway..
I view it as well you guys made a huge mistake..BIG WOOOP your human and you screw up just like everyone else does..But doesnt mean ill forget how i was treated nore that my input in beta or live went unheard..That my time and money wasnt good enough for SOE...So i vote with my dollars and will continue to be more carefull about games i buy based on the teams/company behind them..I have a Love/Hate relationship with SWG..i used to love it when it was unique and fun and i hate it now that its a bad WoWEQDarkforces clone..Oh wonder how many more games will try to Be WoW when i think the market will want more depth..It just has to be polished and not a polished turd...
So does that mean when SOE buys everyone out, your going to stop playing games?
One; the way Sony is losing money I dont feel they'll have the capital to buy every game out.
Two: Yes I'd stop playing games. <period>
Three: I dont foster anger as much as I used to at Dundee. However I still wont buy one title that has his name on it. Nor will I buy any title that has Helios, Torres, Smed, Sony or Lucas Arts anymore. Does that possibly make it where I miss out on some fun games. Possibly, but really anyone with common sense should have seen what the future had to hold when they cut out everyones accomplishments in the game.
Also Dundee I dont harbor any ill will toward you, I really hope you do, do well in the future. I know the above paragraph seems like I do, but really it's far from the truth. I'm sure a lot of others dont hold the borderline personality I possess
.
To deny yourself pleasure in order to some how thumb your nose at another person is something I cannot understand. Especially when that person will never ever know you thumbed your nose at them, and you don't get to play something that may well be awesome.
I
They'd know if the sales weren't there. True personally knowing only 1 person that didn't buy it because of the name of devs wouldn't happen but 200K people not buying because of the same reason might get some attention. Look at the Dixie Chicks they dont know individuals that wont buy they're stuff but their pocket book sure did.
Most of the Dixie Chicks fans were from metropolitan areas, so their sales weren't hurt nearly as much as many thought they would be. Turns out there are lots of country fans in New York and the like that loved what they did.
Just saying
Currently playing:
LOTRO, Rift (beta) and WoW (on occasion)
All I heard from his end was something along the lines....
"It wasn't me, well... okay I was one and so what...... I was a Dev for the game you loved.... oh and yea I helped regress it to something you never ever want to play again .... but just be happy that I act like I answer you..... I learned to have zero scruples from Smedley and Torres.... not my fault.... lie lie lie... deny deny deny !! "
That is what I am "feeling" from this whole thing anyway.
"SWG was a world, now it's just a game" -adamrk-
"When the game was good, you didn't have to ask where the population was, because it was everywhere. When the game was good you didn't have to ask which server had population, because they all did. When the game was good you didn't have to beg friends to give it a try, because they were already playing. " - Salty Pete