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A players review of Vanguard: Saga of Heroes - Long
Teala
Member RarePosts: 7,627
Before you read this. I love this game, I really do, but I am also a gamer and it would be a dis-service to other gamers to write a review that is not honest. So here is an honest review of the game of Vanguard: Saga of Heroes.
You know sometimes we players of these games make a pact, a promise, to ourselves regarding certain games producers and certain publishers after having a bad experience with the game or the publisher. I am an MMORPG enthusiast, except I don't really like these games, I don't like them because they are...how can I say this...tedious and repetitive by nature. What sane person sits in front of a computer for 2+ hours manipulating a bunch of virtual pixels on a computer screen bashing and whacking at other virtual pixels for hours and hours on end - not a sane one! We all have our own reasons for playing these games. I play them for the stories that are normally part of the games background, the virtual worlds lore the game takes place in and all the little sub stories or quest a player can partake of and I am a role player. I love role playing.
I have been a role player since I was a teenager. My brothers got me hooked. Errr....well the cute boy they were playing Rifts with got me hooked actually...hehehe. Yea I started playing because I liked my brothers friend at the time. Little did I know I would forever be hooked on role playing from then on. Pen and Paper gaming turned into console gaming and then on to computer gaming over the internet. I still game with my brothers(and my sister) from time to time over the internet - in fact one of my brothers plays this game as well. I talked him into trying it. ::mischievous grin:: He is hooked. So yea...that is what drives me to play these games...its the potential to play the part, to be a character in a make believe fantasy world that drives me to play these games. Despite that they are all basically whack-the-virtual-mole games ad nauseam they have the redeeming factor of allowing its participants to role play if they so choose and this is the trade off I am willing to take to endure the concept of whacking-moles for no other purpose then to gain levels so you can whack a larger version of he same mole later.
This is a quote from a previous post on Vault Networks Vanguard General Forum Board.
"PS: I will give my feelings for the game once I hit 20+. You and I both know and so do most veteran players that the 20 mark is the tall tell mark of a games worthiness to do this stupid arse grind further then that. If I think it's worthy I'll let you know. You know how much I dislike whacking moles...I don't play whack-the-mole games any more. If this turns into a wake-the-mole game for me and I stop having fun...game over." - Teala_TeJir Date Posted: 2/17 11:08am Subject: RE: You know...call my a Vangirl...I don't care. - Date Edited: 2/17 11:13am I was talking to the poster Wikkid 11, another VN board warrior who has been around these games since forever.
I am here to make good on that promise.
Ok...so here I sit trying to figure out how to write a review on a game that is basically in a "pay for beta mode" for the next 2 or 3 months after hitting 20+ on my main character. This is where I am having a problem. See I know the game is still basically in beta because I went and did a little research on the game before I sat down and started playing my free copy a friend sent me. In actuality I had no intention of even giving this game a second thought after Sigil and Microsoft went their separate ways and Sigil ended up back with Sony Online Entertainment. I have no love for SOE after what they did to Star Wars Galaxies: An Empire Divided...not even going to go there.
Anyway, what I am going to do is review the game as it should be reviewed, not as a game that is basically still in beta but as a product that was shipped ready for consumption by the average "Joe/Jill" gamer who may not have had the opportunity to do a little research on the game before hand. Sigil cannot expect people to know that the game is still in beta basically unless they have a huge sticker on the game box somewhere stating that the game is being released early due to a lack of funds to complete the game. In my opinion shipping the game without that kind of a warning is a bad move on Sigil's and SOE's part because unexpected gamers, especially new players to this genre of game will no doubt become seriously pissed about what they find once they manage to get the game loaded and running somewhat decently on their gaming rigs.
So again, anyway, my friend who is also an avid MMORPG fanatic and someone I trust as for their opinion on games sent a little not with the game saying "Trust me Kris, you're going to love this game..." and so with great trepidation I do a little research and scour the known MMORPG websites for information on a game that I had no intention of playing. I visited fan sites and their forums and read the remarks made by people playing the game or those that had been in beta and threw caution to the wind and loaded up the game.
See I had recently gotten a new gaming rig, a pretty decent one by most gamers standards and it screams playing games like BF2 and Counter Strike Source(umm...yea...I love FPS games...how do you think I found my SO?) and so I figured it would run this game with not much problem considering the requirements to run it at decent settings seemed to be pretty high. AMD based rig with the latest fastest dual core CPU and 2 gig of some of the fastest ram on the market, and not one, but two of the fastest video cards from ATI in a crossfire setup. So I think it can handle it. (NOTE: Vanguard does not take advantage of current technology yet such as sli or DX10 - but we are told it is coming - this will have a bearing on my review later).
So in it goes. Now some people might cringe at the sheer size of the game data they are loading on their hard drives - we're talking a whopping 17+ gig here. I know of no game in recent years that shipped that was of this volume of data and coding but when you have two HD's with well over 150+gigs of space on you're going to have plenty of room.
Now the box comes with a required and a recommended computer specs and this is where I start to take note of some of this games failings and this is one of them. Sigil and Sony clearly messed up when they say the game runs decently on a 2.4ghz cpu based system with 512MB of ram and a video card that can handle Pixel Shader 2.0 with at least 128MB of texture memory. I actually tried that and the game spits and sputters and locks up and the graphics are reminiscent of old EQ. So though you can play it on those specs it is with great frustration and pain. No what Sigil should have done was be upfront and honest and say look, this game is being developed for high-end gaming rigs with 3.0ghz cpu's, 2gigs of ram, and video cards with 256mb of texture memory(or more the more the better), and even with that kind of rig you're still going to encounter performance problems and it requires a lot of tweaking to get the game to run smoothly. If you have the gaming rig that can handle Vanguard graphically you're going to be in for a real treat.
Game did load, had a couple of errors on certain files, so I just hit ignore and went on. Game booted and I then made sure my Sony Player Account was active. Kristi is ready to play the game.
Character Creation:
Straight and to the point. Needs work. It's OK for now, but needs work. Sure you can tweak everything from feet to hands to noses to the slant of your characters eyes, but it lacks the real things that players can use to make a unique character and to not look like a clone of every other character you come across in the game. Needs way more hairstyles and starter clothing options. Standard controls typical of this kind of game to manipulate the different features of your character - sliders. It is a very basic run of the mill character creation system for this kind of game. If you take your time you can tweak your little alter ego into something that looks pretty decent on the computer screen. Neat feature here is you can drop back into customization screen simply by logging off the game and change your characters appearance any time you want.
Game is basically level based/gear centric. The higher the level the more you character can do and the more you can refine it. The better the item and if it has things that can boost your cahracters primary and secondary stats the better. There is a lot you can mess around with on your character as you develop it and one way to do this is with the stats and attributes that define how well your character can perform certain things. So you have stats or attributes that you'll start with like every other game of this nature.
Different races start with different stats in certain attributes, and just like other games of this nature it is a good ideal to know what attributes are of main concern to your characters chosen profession. For instance my ranger. Her main stats that are most important to her are dexterity and strength followed by vitality. So it is a good ideal to try to maximize her main stats to make sure she working as intended by keeping the most important attribute for her profession maxed out and if at all possible - tweaked even further by using magically enhanced items and weapons that can boost that attribute. Here is one little thing though I have learned. First do not neglect the other attributes. My ranger has the ability to cast spells and therefore her wisdom and intelligence will make a huge difference on how well her magicks can work. You can tweak your character to your hearts desire in this game. There is a means at which players can deduct or add to stats as they see fit.
Now I cannot speak for all classes, but for my ranger I have found that she can either be a melee'r(close in combat with hands or weapons) or primarily a ranged fighter depending on how I tweak her stats. I chose to do both decently. She can deal good melee damage(not as high as some other rangers) and she can deal decent ranged damage(not as high as some but not as bad as others). I chose to do this because my ranger goes from fighting in cramped areas to fighting in open areas quite a bit. A ranger in a dungeon that has narrow passages or short rooms is not going to be able to afford being caught in melee combat and unable to deal good melee damage. Archery has it's place, but in a dungeon crawl that luxury of having distance between us and the enemy that we have outside does not always exist inside. So by balancing her stats my ranger is right where I like her. Decent inside combat and decent in outside combat. I am not sure how other classes fair in this regard but with rangers it can make the difference between being useful or useless in certain situations. So pay attention to your attributes and how you distribute your stat points - it can make a huge difference on how you can play your character effectively. So in a sense you can develop a character that is somewhat unique and not cookie cutter to all the others that are playing the same class. Vanguard doesn't do it to the extent many players of this type of game would like but it does do it better then most.
There are 16+ races and 16+ classes to choose from. Not all races can play all classes. So you have to read up on the racial abilities of each race to determine what race works best with which classes, if you are a min-max gamer and want to create a character that can best benefit from that particular racial benefit for the class you wish to play - otherwise just pick what you like to play and move on. I chose the ranger class(love playing a ranger) and a Thestran Human(there are Kojan Humans and Qalia humans as well) for my main character. Problem though I was really hoping to play a human Kojani ranger and that is not a choice in the game. So that is why I chose Thestran because the humans there can be rangers. No biggy about not being able to play a Kojani human ranger...there are ways around this kind of thing. So I ran my ranger from the Thestran starter town and traveled to Kojan. This was my first taste of the immense size of this games world. Running from Tursh to New Targonor and then being ported to Ca'ial Breal and then finding the port guy in Ca'ial Breal that could port my character to Tanvu(one of the Kojan starter towns) was quite an experience and took a good hour or more. So that was it. I was now ready to actually start playing.
Starter Towns and Moving On:
No tutorial type game play here. You start the game in various starter towns depending on the race and continent you choose to play on. There is your first quest giver in each starter town that gets you going in the right direction and introduces you to some of the basic game and its lore and the surrounding area. You learn as you play. Of course just like all these games most quest in starter towns are pretty basic so that you can get your bearings and feet wet sorta speak. You'll have to go here and give this person this item or pick an item up and return to the person that sent you and or maybe go there and slay x number of this mob and bring back this item from each one. (Game is laced with these kinds of quest and generally the ones that require you to slay x number of mobs also require a trophy like an ear - the usual so nothing new here). Some quest require some thinking though. There are some neat puzzle and riddle quest in the Kojan starter towns and one of the funnest ones is the leap of faith. You are ported to this Master on top this mountain over looking the city of Tanvu and are told to show that you have faith in Jin you must run off the bridge, that goes into thin air, and have faith that Jin will save you before your ultimate demise at the foot of the mountain. The mountain is quite high and the leap is fun and it affords you the view of Tanvu from a unique perspective as you plummet toward it. Not going to tell you what happens - buy the game and find out.
There are many story driven quest and some are really well done and others...well others are a nightmare. The quest line that takes you to Achatlan's Lair is a nightmare and the dungeon is truly one of the more difficult dungeons to quest in. It is suppose to be geared for player characters level 13 to say 16 I would gather, but in all honesty after the number of times and the amount of time I spent in that spider infested hole from hell I'd not recommend going in there with anyone 15 or less. Go with experienced players 16+ who know how to play their class and make sure you take a minimum of two healers and a good tank and a spell caster who has the ability ti instantly whisk the party to safety if something goes wrong. Achatlan's Lair is not for the meek and off all the dungeons I have encountered so far in game Achatlan is the least forgiving. Enter it outside Veskal's Exchange at your player characters own risk. Be aware that there are certain aspects of this quest that require you to activate objects in your backpack in order to fulfill the quest while in the dungeon caves of Achatlan. The quest journal fails to mention this bit of information about right clicking on an item in your pouch or backpack(as do many of the quest in this game) and this can lead you to believe that the quest is broken...as it did me. So be aware of this while playing and always check to see if you've been given an object that needs activated during certain times while doing the quest in order to fulfill the requirements of the quest(just a little heads up I was given by someone - I think a Sigil developer - from Silky Venom - who was kind enough to take the time to write me an e-mail and kindly explained where I had gone wrong on trying to get the quest to work). I figure I would pass this information on to some of you here so you don't become frustrated thinking the quest is broke as I did.
Once you have obtained a level of about 8 or so you move on to other places and more quest. You start to explore other areas and towns of the game and as you gain even more levels you will be able to get a horse(level 10) and this makes travel so much easier considering the distances between places. You can purchase a horse for like 12 silver and some odd copper, get some horseshoes to make it run faster and add barding and or tack to make it more stable which means you are less likely to get knocked off your mount by a mob that aggro's on you as you ride by. By the time you are level 12+ you should be well on your way to exploring the game world. My little ranger traveled from Kojan after hitting level 11 back to Thestra, gained some experience there by doing quest and exploring in and around towns such as Three Rives and Veskal's Exchange, then traveled back to Kojan, did some more questing there, then traveled back to Thestra...I think you get the picture. The game world is made to explore and if you like exploring and seeing what's over the next hill Vanguard gives you the perfect setting to do so.
Not all areas, like villages, towns and outpost have the same offerings. In other words just because there is a broker in Tursh doesn't mean there is one in Three Rivers and just because there is a ranger trainer in Veskal's doesn't mean there is one in Arlinora's Retreat. So you'll have to make notes of these places mentally of where you found what and where. Also, if you are in a town or outpost or whatever be aware that you can ask a guard for directions to banks, vendors and such. This brings us to one of the things I found really annoying in this game and that is banks. What you drop in your bank account in Tursh cannot be accessed by you in a bank in Tanvu. So it seems the game is designed so that whatever bank you drop money or an object in that is the bank that is holding it. This can be a very terrible inconvenience and forces players to have to travel back to the city whose bank has the items or money they need at the time.
Travel is debated in this game all the time by players. Since the games world is so huge and the distant to travel from place to place, let alone another continent takes a significant amount of time and has stirred up a lot of controversy. There are the players that like the time it requires to travel from point A to point B and then there are others that would like to see a faster method put into place. Let's face it, with a game world as big as Telon and you are trying to get together with guild mates or friends who are on a totally different continent and you all have limited play time. Riding a horse to the nearest port and then porting or sailing to the other continent and then having to travel across land again means your limited play time is now even more limited due to the fact that while traveling you're wasting valuable time you could be adventuring with your guild mates or friends. Is there a solution to this in the future. Sigil promises that they are devising ways to facilitate getting from point A to point B faster without taking away the need for players to "not" have to "travel" at all. Seriously you should have to do some traveling, it's part of what makes these games the way they are. Exploring and learning about the virtual world requires some travel time. However I do hope that Sigil works out a system that is beneficial to people who have limited time. I am one of them. I have missed out on dungeon crawls because of travel times and I missed out on a whole lot of fun as well. Nothing beats a good dungeon romp with people you know and trust and love each others company.
There are other things you must be aware of. If you choose to play one of the races that is considered evil by the other races, such as Dark Elves, you'll not be able to freely travel from say Hathor Zhi(a dark elf city) to say Themwar's Shield(a Dwarven Outpost north of Three Rivers in Thestra). You'll be killed by the guards. You can however make it possible for you to do so if you slay the enemies of the inhabitants of the city or town you wish to visit. Once you gain favor for a particular race you're free and clear to travel to their towns and villages.
Now there is a debate on if this game is seamless or not. No it is not seamless, not in the sense of a game like Asheron's Call. Where if you start at the southern edge of Dereth and start traveling north, you can keep traveling north until you are at the northern edge of the continent. There doesn't appear to be any loading of areas, though there is, and it seems like the world is one huge seamless world. Vanguard tries to do this, but is hits a snag when you must load different chunks of land as you move from one to another. Depending on your internet connection and gaming rig this cane take from 2 to 3 seconds to upwards of 30+ seconds. I think once the game is better optimized and we all upgrade in a year or two with faster and better gaming rigs this will be like AC and you'll not see those pauses as you pass from one chunk to the other
Chunking(as it is called) can be dangerous for your character, because though it seems like you can see the what lies ahead of you in the next chunk seamlessly, it's not, there is an invisible wall there and sometimes just on the other side of this wall is a mob that is ready to aggro on you and if you do not chunk fast enough you're dead before you know what happened. So be aware of this if you choose to play this game or are playing it now and haven't had to chunk in places where this might occur. I have and it isn't fun.
You can explore buildings, ruins and dungeons without having to port into them and this does make the game seem a little more solid and real then most you may have encountered in the past. You can even stand inside houses and look out through the windows and watch what is going on. Just a heads up on that.
There are emotes in the game, tons, like dancing and drinking(though your character isn't holding anything while drinking), and this should bode well for the people that actually like to role play - like me! However I do not think Sigil has taken this far enough. There are chairs in the game. You can stand on them and you can kneel on them, but forget about sitting on one. I know for some people this doesn't matter and they could careless, but for those of us that like to role play our characters this is important and I hope that eventually Sigil gives our characters the ability to do more then just stand and kneel.
We are promised that Caravans and Fellowships are on the way, but as of yet no definate ETA. Both would greatly help the player community, especially the ideal behind Fellowships. Since neither of these are in game yet I'll not make any call on them or try to discuss them since they are still a pipe dream for the game and the people that will be playing.
Basic Game Play:
There is adventuring, there is crafting and there is this thing called diplomacy. Each is self explanatory. Adventuring is the basic premise of the game. You take your character and go adventuring in the world of Telon. Same as all the previous games like this that came before. Crafting...crafting I cannot really comment on and won't. I will be honest here and tell you I haven't crafted anything other then arrows for my character through her natural ability to do so based on the fact that her chosen profession is that of a ranger. Other then that I haven't touched crafting. I no longer play a crafter in these games. I did the crafting thing in other games like SWG, AC2 and EQ2 (which I loved playing my crafter in but I gave up doing it because it become more a chore then fun). So I am sorry I cannot review that aspect of this game for you honestly - all I can do is tell you what trusted gamer friends have told me and that it is like the crafting in EQ2 only better. I am not here to make virtual widgets...if that is something you enjoy, then I understand Vanguards crafting system is one of the best. You should find it enjoyable from what I hear.
As for diplomacy, well...it seems my main is bugged. She cannot participate in diplomacy. I tried to get it started but cannot progress any further in the tutorial. The trainer wishes to show you the basics by "parleying" with him in a test "parley" and that is the thing...I have no option to begin the parley. I actually had to play an alt to learn about this unique game aspect. It is fun and adds a whole new dimension to the game and is unique to Vangaurd. It is a game within a game and as I understand it later in the game diplomacy opens up opportunities to go on quest you would not generally be able to participate in if you do not partake of this aspect of the game. I'm doing my best to get the guys at Sigil to fix my character but as of yet I have heard nothing back from them. ::sigh:: Maybe someday. The different types of diplomacy can range from figuring out a murder to persuading someone to perform a favor for a town official or even having an impact on the guards moral of the city. By partaking of diplomacy you can also gain bonus and benefits for other players and yourself who are in the vicinity of the town like buffs to certain stats or lower the cost of doing business and more. If you get a little worn out from the literally thousands of quest (3,000+ quest from the count I saw that another player has done all ready on the player tracker at the VGplayer.com website as Sony Station) give diplomacy a try. It is a lot of fun and very entertaining.
As I mentioned before there is crafting in this game though I do not participate in it. Players can craft anything and everything to their hearts desire in this game from the simple to the complex for instance player characters can learn to craft ships, houses, tack and barding for horses, cloaks, weapons(even magially enhanced ones with the right materials which are eithr bought from vendors or mined/gathered/harvested from nodes/trees/animal skins scattered about the world of Telon) armor....you name it and they can probably craft it. Why is this important for game play? Because the crafters of this game will be able to make some things that players will not be able to purchase otherwise and or find off the dead or loot they take from a treasure horde. Some people like to make what I call virtual widgets in these games. I use to do this, but I now have limited time and so I prefer my play time to be spent adventuring and exploring the world of Telon. Now I understand that the player that creates the object has their name attached to it as the creator so that players item could very well be passed on or sold in game for years to come. So in a way the players that chose to be crafters are able to leave their mark in the game even after they have moved on.
This brings us to item decay. Yes your items, even magical ones can decay in this game and require maintenance from time to time. As your items decay so does their effectiveness. So be aware of this. Any merchant in game can repair your items - for a small fee of course. The worse the conditon of the item the more you're going to pay to repair it.
Is there a player ran economy in Vanguard? Yep and it is going strong. Since the game launched and items have begun to appear in the brokers scattered about Telon prices have dropped on certain items being sold by players. Slowly the prices have come down since the games release because more and more of the same items are appearing and just like a real economy the more a particular item becomes available the less it is going to cost you. Players compete to sell their items and crafted wares just like people do in the real world. I have seen items that were once going for upwards of a gold piece in game drop to a handful of silver in just the last couple of weeks alone. So check the brokers often, watch the prices for certain items you wish to obtain, mark them down and come back in a couple of days and you'll see in most cases that the price has dropped.
Note about brokers. Brokers like banks are regional. You will not see items being sold by a player on a broker in Tanvu on a broker in Tursh. If you wish to see what the broker in Tanvu has you'll have to go travel to Tanvu and go to the broker to find out what he is selling. This is another of the pains in the game, but again we can hope this changes as the game matures.
There is e-mail in the game and yes you can send not only notes and such back and forth to friends, but you can also send money and items.
Can a player solo in Vanguard. The answer is yes and no. Yes you can solo and you can go from 1-50 this way. I know of a couple of people that all they do is hunt 2 dot mobs within their characters range and just farm - farm - farm. Hey if that is what floats your boat knock yourself out. Can't say I could do that...no I know I cannot do that. But to those of you that can...enjoy. I believe the player character Polkadot made it to 50 this route and he did it faster then anyone else. So is it possible to solo Vanguard - yep.
User Interface needs a little work, I really wish we had more freedom with where we can place our hotky icons. Good news though is there are now player made UI mods available fore the game of Vanguard. Many fan sites make these accessable to players as downloads and give details on how to make use of them in the game.
I have found that I progress at a decent pace by soloing some and grouping at other times, so far I figure I have soloed about 40% of the time and the rest was either in a duo or with a group of other players. So what that's like a 40/60 split. Some quest are definately geared toward groups and I wouldn't even attempt to solo them even if I came back and did the quest being 15 levels higher. The MOB spawns in some places are rediculously high and there is no way you could solo so many MOBs solo.
There is also PvP allowed in this game in the form of dueling, mutually consentual combat between players on the PvE servers, or you may opt to go one one of two PvP servers in the game Tharridon and Varking. Tharridon is a free for all pvp, can attack anyone anywhere or you can play on Varking where it is team based PvP. I cannot comment on it since I have not experienced PvP in this game, but word is that class balance issues are an issue on the PvP server so be aware that it does have its own unique problems conducive to that type of game play.
Combat:
On to combat. Combat is like most combat in this genre, click on target, whack on target until either it is dead or you are, however this combat in my opinion is a bit more fun and interactive then previous attempts to make combat fun and exciting. There are different stances your character can take like a defensive stance while in combat. This allows for the player character to take less damage, but at the same time since you are not being offensive you're damage output will be less. If you choose an offensive stance, then youare increasing the chance that you'll be hit, therefore increasing the chance for more damage to be delt to your character while at the same time your character is dealing the full potential of damage it can deliver. There are chain attacks you can do and special attacks that you can unlock during combat - some of which are very powerful and come in handy when you and your enemy are living on a threads worth of life or just when you think you've lost all hope it comes up and that special attack saves your bacon.
Another thing I like is the fact you can move and fight. Moving does not interrupt your attack as it does in some games. So this is a plus. Also when it comes to moving it seems that it can effect your "to hit" ability. I noticed that when I move it does make it seem to appear that the enemy lands less blows and well so did my ranger - see more misses when she is moving. Could just be perception on my part, it just seems that way.
Not sure on this, but I believe types of weapons play a factor on the damage you do to certain creatures. I noticed this when I was doing a dungeon crawl recently in game. We were fighting spiders and my swords were'nt doing all that great of damage, so I switched to a pair of hammers of about the same damage ability as my long swords I like to have my character use. There was a difference it seems. The hammers were more effective against the hard exoskeleton of the spider then my swords or so it seemed. So be aware of this.
I can say that the combat in this game is a lot more interactive and you just can't push auto attack and walk away. I like the combat in Vanguard, it's fun to participate in.
Graphics and Animation:
OK. This is were I have one of my more serious problems with this game the graphics and animation. The graphics are gorgeous if you have the machine that can run it with all the bells and whistles on and I have done it a few times. However in towns and things where there are lots of players and NPC's, forget it, so I had to tweak my settings down to be able to afford decent frame rates so that it doesn't look like a slideshow when entering these crowded areas. As I mentioned before the difference between minimum and recommend requirements is like comparing night and day. The games graphics as gorgeous as they are really are a system hog. Fine I can deal with this. However what about the players that read the retail box and see the minimum, buy the game and then rush home and load it up only to discover that the game is basically unplayable on their gaming rig? Sigil needs to fix this and start printing retail boxes with a higher minimum requirement. It is misleading to tell consumers that the game will run on a certain system when it doesn't - not to the level of performance that most gamers would enjoy that is.
Also, why is this game not able to utilize a technology that has been out for quite some time now and that which I am speaking of is gaming rigs set up with dual video cards. Game does not make use of sli and as of yet if you Windows Vista it will not make use of DX10. This is a real shame because that would go a long way to eliminating a lot of the problems people are having with the games performance. We're told the game will be able to make use of ths technology in the future but no definate ETA. Let's all hope it is sooner rather than later.
The graphics are gorgeous no doubt about it. Think the latest version of Oblivion and that's just about where Vanguard is in detail. As for distances you can view, I am not sure I have played a game that affords the kind of viewing distance one can obtain in this game. Standing on a mountain over looking the land makes it appear that you can see for miles. Again great stuff if your gaming rig can handle it.
Animations are being tweaked as I write this and we're told new ones are on the way for certain actions and such. What's in the game now is OK to some extent and it'll do for now but Sigil is definately going to have to go back and revisit this on a continuous bases until they have better animations for such things as jumping. One thing I find annoying is the shortcuts Sigil took on certain things. Wish to mount your horse. Push a hotkey and 3 to 4 seconds later. Poof! A horse magically appears underneath your character. Wish to dismount your horse. Push the hotkey and poof! Horse gone. What I'd like to see is for us to be able to call up our horse as we do now, and then have to click on it or push another hotkey to mount it. Then your character will mount the horse of whatever as you would see someone do in real life. I saw a trailer for the game Age of Conan and they have this kind of animation in that game. I know it isn't game breaking, but it is just another thing that would let players know this game is not your standard MMORPG...it's better. As it is now, forgive me for saying this oh Gods of gaming, but Star Wars Galaxies handles mounts much better then Vanguard and SWG is three years old. Come on Sigil surely you can do better than a three year old game.
Combat animations are "not" lacking for the most part. My ranger has a myriad of moves she'll perform whether she is dual weilding swords or is using just one sword. As she gets higher in level I have seen new animations for combat. So as for rangers(cannot speak for all classes in game) they are not lacking in combat animations. I watched a Monk in game fight and it look just like something out of one of those Kung Fu movies. Monks have some really sweet combat moves and some are just down right beautiful.
Note: Combat hits appear to be instantanious. So take for instance my ranger. The hit will register long before she releases the arrow. It is really noticable when the MOB dies and is laying there and the killing arrow shows up after the fact. Needs addressed I think. It would also be nice if all the arrows my ranger shoots are not balls of lightning or fire or whatever. Just a simple arrow would do nicely from time to time.
It would also be nice if the arrows we shoot would actually stick out of the target we're shooting at. I know it is just a cosmetic thing, but when you compare the same kind of combat in a game like Dark Age of Camelot where arrows do stick out of the target, it makes Vangaurd seem like it is failing to keep up with other older games graphically in certain areas from games that were released 4+ years ago. Not important to some, but important to me and others. Needs improvement in the future.
Sound and Music:
Sound I have no problem with. It seems appropriate for what you see on screen in most cases. However there are some that are lacking or are just not there. For instance, you can run in the shallow water and it sound like it. You can ride you mount in shallow water and it doesn't sound like it is running through water. Something I think Sigil needs to look at in the future. Music is epic just like the game and is a real joy to listen to, however there is only so many times a person can listen to the same combat music. So it does get old after a bit - just like any song that you have heard a bazillion times over.
Experiences:
I'm going to say I'm running 50/50 toward good and bad experiences. Good experience is when you finish a quest line with a group of other players that took some serious dedication and effort on the part of all who were in the group to complete the quest. Bad experience is when you travel between chunks and instantly die, what makes it worse is not being able to find your tombstone and loose items. I can say without a doubt that that was my worse time in game. I lost 4 tombstones in a row within a span of like 10 minutes in the same general area - vanished - gone - nothing. They showed up on my map, but could not be found. How I died while going from one area to another boggles my mind but it happend. The only way I was able to eventually leave the area I was in was to do a recall to my last bind point. When I did this the tombstones that were once on my map were gone, but some of the items that I had lost, and were not soulbound, reappeared in my inventory. Still lost the exp. Thank God this happend during the double exp weekend or it could have been worse then it actually was. I did a petition and received no reply on the situation of my tombs and items. In fact they deleted all standing petitions as of the 7th(today) so I doubt I'll ever see those items or the exp I lost due to a really bad game bug. It needs taken care of soon. I am not the only player who has encountered this bug.
I have had tons of fun just exploring and role playing on my server of choice, the RP prefered server Florendyl. I've met mostly fun and very helpful people on this server and a vast majority do RP to some extent. I can only comment on the community I have encountered on Florendyl because it is the only server I have played on and I give the players there two thumbs up and a huge hug! You guys on that server are just awesome!
Bugs, Flaws, Performance, Complaints and Short Comings:
You know to list all the bugs I have come across in this game would make getting this review done in a decent amount of time out of the question. So what I am going to do here is list a few of the worst ones I have come across.
Disappearing tombstones.
Falling through the ground into nothing. This happens quite frequently - why I have no clue but it seems to happen mostly when chunking. One way to fix it is to log and come back on. If all else fails, recall back to your last bind point. Hope to hell you didn't fall through in Kojan and the last bindstone you touched was outside of say Veskal's Exchange. Lot of lost time there.
Missing items from inventory after logging and coming back.
Broken quest. They just don't work. They are broken. No way to complete them(I could make a list of a dozen quest right now that I came across that were either broken or failed to work without logging out and back into the game). How many do I have on my list of quest I have come across like that of the 160+ quest my character has done, 32 are either broken, or messed up(misleading, poorly written, as to what you are to do or where to go) or require you to exit the game and come back in. So yea...my quest list I've completed up to this point would be much longer then it currently is.
Getting stuck between objects in game, like a rock and the ground, or a wood fence and a hill side, or just a crevis in a large rock. Good thing is if someone is near they can toss your character a rope and pull you out. However, if nobody is around, well then you must use the /stuck yes command. This is OK...however it is not OK when it ports you back to the closest bindstone causing you to loose valuable play time because now you have to travel back to where you were before getting stuck and refight all those MOBS you had just finished off.
Things that not only annoy you, but actually hurt your game play experience are MOBS that are overpowered compared to your level. Example. The different cockatrices you'll encounter in game. They can chain stun you so fast that your character is all but incapacitated. You cannot fight back, run, do nothing. You get two of these things on you and you might as well just sit and wait until your character dies or some kind soul helps take them out. There are other creatures that can chain stun and in my eyes and mind that is not acceptable. They need fixed and soon. Sure it is funny once, maybe twice or even three times, but to have it happen as often as it does in certain areas where these birds and over sized insects(like scorpians) are is just plan annoying. They can take a players frustration level to the breaking point very easily.
I dunno whose sick joke it was to put a bridge in game across a deep ravine and it not be solid. Yep, unwarranted death occured to my character due to this illusion. If it was meant to be just an illusion and not a solid bridge...then my mistake. If however the bridge was meant to be used by players - THEN WHY THE FRAK IS IT IN GAME AS IT IS! Yep...silly me...to think that the bridge was usable and to start out across it only to watch my character fall to her death. There goes more exp lost for no reason. If you are playing the game or are going to play the game be aware that not all you see is solid - like rope bridges across deep ravines! This bridge is located near Arlinora's Retreat - be careful messin around it...one step to many on it and your character will be kissing the rocks along the river bank far below.
Completing a quest line in order to get a title for your character only to find out your character is bugged and cannot get the title. The whole reason of doing that particular quest line was to get the title in the first place only to find out you can't. Try to petition it and have someone look into it - forget it - not going to happen. I have tried repeatedly to get it fixed and still nothing - no word, no nothing. I wouldn't care so much about this, but if you are the kind of gamer I am, you'd like to make a character that wasn't just like every other character running around in the game world with you. YES SIGIL THESE LITTLE THINGS LIKE THIS DO MATTER! DON'T BLOW IT OFF AS JUST ANOTHER "OH WELL NO BIGGY - SO YOU DIDN'T GET YOUR STUPID TITLE." Well it does matter and it can make a difference on whether someone is willing to stick with your game or not. If don't see some serious repsonses in the near future on this matter(I will petition it again) this player that is currently willing to pay for your game and play dispite all that is wrong with it will join those that have all ready evac'ed out and she'll be there warning others about your game. Trust me on this one. Am I pissed and annoyed by this, better bet I am. I worked my characters arse off and endured a lot of BS to get that title and well she and "I" deserve it. Note: Others have reported the same problem with this title on various Vanguard fan sites so it isn't just my character that is having this problem.
This leads to some of the worst customer support I have ever come across in a game to date. Instead of answering our concerns and fixing what is wrong, your petition you semd in either goes unanswered or you are asked to delete it because there is nothing they can do to fix the problem. Sigil and SOE better step up to the plate here because piss poor customer support will kill a game just as fast as a bug infested one. The two together is a recipe for sure fire death.
NOTE: It is sad that the only way I was able to get any kind of response for problems I have encountered in game was by posting on a fan site message board that is frequented by developers of the game. This is true. I have yet to see any real support in game, but I did get a letter addressing some of my concerns regarding broken quest in the game by someone from the Silky Venom web site. I do not know who the person was I can only assume it was a developer since they said they would look into my concern and contact one of the level designers to see if they can fix the quest I was having a problem with. He was also kind enough to point out what I was doing wrong with one particular quest. For this I thank that person, however, the very fact that the only place I could get a response was on a fan site for the game just goes to show you the lack of in game support.
Final Thoughts:
Oh boy...am I in some serious cockatrice poo with what I am about to write, but it has to be said, and I said my review would be brutally honest and I am keeping to my word. This game was not ready to be released. It was released not 3 months early as some would like us to believe, but more like 6 months. There is way to much yet to be finished in this game to believe otherwise. For the number of quest I have encountered that are the way they are shows just how unfinished the game really is. Bugs...way to many to list and a lot you'll never encounter until you've invested quite a bit of time into your character. I dunno but after I hit level 15 I was amazed at how often I encountered bugs in certain areas of Telon. Some aspects of game play need seriously tweaked and or fixed - birds that have chain stun abilities and are 6 levels below you should not be a problem but they are.
Now with that being said, I love this game, I love the epic feel it has. The game is quite playable - if and this is a big if - if you are the kind of player that has lots and lots of patience to put up with a game that is going through some serious and painful growing pains. Sure the game is less then 5 weeks old and we should be willing to cut Sigil and Sony some slack. Well being a veteran gamer I can cut them some slack. See I've been here and done this and have become accustomed to this kind of launch for an MMORPG, however, what about someone new to this game genre, what about those whose only experience coming from a game like World of Warcraft and encounter a game in such a condition as this compared to a game like WoW and it's launch? WoW may have had its difficulties at launch due to Blizzards lack of foresight, but launching Vanguard, what Sigil considers to be the next generation in MMORPG's, is far from it. I blame SOE more for this debacle then I do Sigil personally. We've seen SOE jump the gun and just release games that are not ready for prime time - this game is no different. I can pretty much make a call that the vast majority of veteran gamers will not be so kind and will not cut Sigil any slack. They've been bitten to many times in the past to continue to put up with this kind of BS.
Also, I'd like to say I think Sigil might want to relax their hardcore stance on giving players better exp rewards. Now I personally do not mind that my character is advancing at the pace she is, however lets look at this from a business side of things. Either you can have a dead game or you can have a game full of happy players enjoying the game. How do you do that...relax your stances on certain things. There are better ways to handle death for instance. Asheron's Call had a harsh death, but it was not at the cost of exp. As far as I am concerned AC still has the best death penalty of any MMORPG I have played. It punished the player in a way that didn't take away from that players willingness to take a chance and push their character to its limits. This game on the other hand...push to hard and you're going to regret it. Sigil can should find out how AC handles death and then mimic it.
Don't be such tight wads with exp. Look just because I do not think MOBS should give higher levels of exp doesn't mean 1,000's of others agree with me or you for that matter and clearly there are lots(thousands of potential players, former players and beta testers that agree that you are being stingy with the exp). If I were the person running the show I'd want as many people playing my game as I could get. The more players you get the more cash you have on hand to fix the game and add lots of new content. Less players means less support. So what is it going to hurt if players earn exp at a little better rate then they currently do? It might actually get more people to remain playing and get more to come play it. Don't play the "this is our game and you'll either like it or leave", because you'll loose that fight in this current market of MMORPG's. You can either have empty servers or you can be scrambling to keep up with the demand for more servers...which is it going to be?
Sigil has the making of a classic game here, everything is in place, and it'll take a lot of compromising on Sigil's part to make this game even a bigger success. Even as this game is in its current state it offers so much that it can take a player hundreds of hours to experience what it has to offer and it is without a doubt one of the best MMORPG's to come out in years...but you know...it doesn't matter what I think. I may think this and a handful of others may think this, but that doesn't it make it so. What will make it the game it can...magik word coming up here..."potentially" be is for Sigil to get on the ball and fix the more serious pressing matters. Performance issues, bugs, and addressing the myriad of broken quest. Fix the core of the game. Without a strong core and foundation your house will fall and lets be brutally honest here - Sigil has lots of people on its payroll that should now this. A majority (yes people like me that like the game, we are in the minority here - deal with it) MMORPG gamers are no longer willing to put up with as much BS as they did when EQ and AC were released. It's make or break time for Brad and gang and unless they really step up to the plate and knock one out of the park...say hello to yet another poorly implemented and executed MMORPG that is destined to join the likes of Horizons, Star Wars Galaxies and AC2.
My score for Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. 1 being the worst and 10 being the best...Vanguard:SoH receives a 5.5 - hey I may love it but the gamer in me knows what kind of game Vanguard is right now and is willing to just tell it like it is.
So if you are a fellow gamer looking to buy this game and are not willing to put up or have the patience of this games current condition, save your money and your time - for now. Give them 3 to 6 months and then try it. Maybe then Sigil will have gotten their act together and this game will be one of the best MMORPG's on the Internet. If they fail, you'll no doubt hear about it and you'll have saved yourself a lot of money and frustration.
Addendum: Note to Sigil - The current adjustment that has been made to combat, because the powers that be say the certain special combat moves were never meant to deal as much damage as they currently do and have been adjusted downward accordingly is about as bad as it gets when it comes to nerfing player characters. I have a question. If this is true and you never meant it to be the way it was, then how come it takes you until after the game goes live to realize that you needed to correct it? Do you honestly believe that the player base is going to just roll over and allow you to pull this kind of BS on them? Hey Sigil! Earth to Sigil...we're not as stupid as you seem to think we are. Many of us have been playing these games before they were even graphical and we've seen this kind of BS before. So because of you deciding to make yet another assinine choice and make the game even less fun...well I guess I am just going to have revise my score I was willing to give you and now this game rates a 5 at best.
Keep making choices that make the game less fun to play and the score will continue to drop. I'll do another review of the game in 6 months time. I just hope there are people willing to even read it at that time considering you seem to be doing your best to kill your own game - you've done a wonderful job all ready and I'll gladly keep writing reviews like this and help you kill it off. If you want your game to go along side such games as AC2 in the pantheon of bad games - who am I to stop you.
Comments
Probably one of the best reviews I've read so far. Nice job!
Bring on the WARRRRGGHH!
zZZzz?
Atleast that's more original than TLDR.
If you don't care for wall of text reviews then go read 80-90% of the reviews out there. Her review was quite indepth and informative and was constructd in a manner that would make me more tolerant of this game if I ever decided to play it (which I never will even with a free trial because obviously it will make my laptop bendover and squeel for mercy).
[edit] I hope [he] deleted his own post instead of a mod. Didn't care for his commentss but that didn't seem like something warranting censorship.
The marketing guys will love this - atm they will take any reviews they can get .
good or bad its still putting Vanguard - The only Massive MMorpg with DIPLOMACY that took 5 long years to develop - in the publics eye.
When the reviews stop coming i'm sure they will continue promote it.
Though a long review, if you are thinking about purchasing the gane, I recommend reading the entire review. The good and the bad are laid out here in a fair and equitable manner, along with the personal feelings of a veteran MMORPG player toward each.
Also of note is the feeling of the writers frustration as she discusses the difficulties the early release creates for the players.
I would like to note, though, that the problem she is having getting her diplomacy quests started may not be a character bug. In my experience you have to get that first diplomacy training quest in your starting area. I noted that she left her starting area for Tanvu. When I left Tanvu for Thestra, I couldn't start my diplomacy sphere either, but when I returned to Tanvu I was able to start it just fine. Just a suggestion to try.
Hi Teala. I stopped reading the Vault boards, in large part due to your rabid optimism.
Thank you for coming clean and finally admitting this game is sub-par in a lot of ways. You and I still disagree on the likelihood that things will improve, but I'm glad to know the rose-colored glasses are off as concerns the game in its current state.
For a while there, I was starting to believe you were being paid to say nice things about this game!
man, RPers are soooo long winded...
all in all a good review. Don't disagree with any of it. Nice work
Thalos Vipav
Star Wars Galaxies: R.I.P.
in depth review: game has some potential.
Reality: games never ever realize potential.
conclusion: dont pay real $$$ for potential gameplay.
this is vanguard in a nutshell.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
I have a level 20 character in Vanguard and this is by far the best and most accurate review of the game in it's current state that I have seen from either the professionals and non-professionals.
Well done!
Yep, very well written. Could not have said it much better myself. I got a character to 22 and just stopped. Far, far too many bugs, I play these games to have fun, not get frustrated. My wife came in one night when I was yelling at the computer and I realized it was time to let this game go.
I will say the crafting systems, in my opinion of course, is a nightmare. Reminds me of DAoC crafting, very teidous to level your crafter.
My gaming rig is a AMD 3800 duel core, with a nvidia 6600 gt, 1 gb of memory. There are places in the game I just did not go because it was a slugfest even at low settings. I could not imagine trying to run this on a system on the low end.
The game has tremendous potential, I will not deny that, but when Sigil will achieve that potential is hard to say. I might resuscribe in a year to see how they are doing.
New score. 3.5
You know, we did a lot of nerfs in EQ 1 and considered balance and long term health of the game very important, even though some people would get upset. And EQ 1 was and is a huge success and still going for 8 years now.
So as I said, we don't enjoy nerfing, but we will do it if we have too. I do agree that a patch should contain as few nerfs as possible so as not to overwhelm people and get too many people upset at once. I also agree that nerfs (and enhancements) should be done slowly but surely both so it's not as painful to the player and also so the devs don't accidentally take things too far.
But right now we have a lot of catching up to do, and we will for the next month or so. So we're patching a lot, and those patches contain fixes, enhancements, tweaks, new content, and yes nerfs. Unfortunatley, this is reality, because we had to release a bit early. We will catch up, however, and the number and frequency of nerfs will go down a lot, replaced by new content, mechanics, etc.
Like I posted, we play the game a lot too, and so we do feel your pain. But again are the stewards of the game and need to keep in mind the game's long term health along with the short term happiness of the players. Why? Because we want Vanguard to last 8+ years too. And, although it hurts, we know it's usually for the greater good and just as you guys care passionately about the game and get upset with nerfs, bugs, etc. we also care deeply for this game and have to think both long and short term.
I think more and more players are understanding this, but obviously it still upsets some people. What we will try our best to do is post and explain why we made a hard decision like a nerf, because you guys deserve to know why and our reasoning.
Lastly, we are human and this is a big game. So we will make mistakes. We will fix things that didn't need fixing, or over nerf or over enhance a class or an item. We have a lot of experience on our team, so I do hope we can minimize mistakes, especially in the long run, when things settle down as I mentioned above. But we still screw up, and when we do, we will apologize and work extra hard to un-screw up whatever we screwed up.
I thank you for your patience and understanding.
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Brad McQuaid
CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
www.pantheonmmo.com
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We will eventually support both SLI and Crossfire, but need to focus on bugs and such first. It's definitely on the list.
As for Vista, Microsoft did something similar to what we did -- because they only release OSs every so often, they knew they needed to create one that wouldn't just use today's technology, but tomorrow's, and next year. So short term many people will need to upgrade their machines. But eventually, just like with Vanguard, the tech will become more available and cheaper. I remember people complaining that XP was a hog. I remember people complaining that they needed graphics cards when Windows came out and many stayed with DOS for quite some time. It's just the nature of the beast.
So yes, if you can't afford upgrading right now, you may want to wait on Vista. And yes, to run Vanguard and Vista, you need a hefty machine. This is fine with some people, and other people will end up waiting.
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Brad McQuaid
CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
www.pantheonmmo.com
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That is the best comment I've seen on these forums regarding Vanguard.Wow, how unfortunately cynical. EQ 1 launched a good game but also one with lots of potential. With patches and expansions we were able to take advantage of newer tech and do things with the game we couldn't have done at launch. The same is and will be true with Vanguard. Saying games never reach their potential, especially MMOGs which have the fantastic ability to patch in new content, features, fixes, etc. and that entertain people months, even years, simply isn't supported by the facts. I'm not saying every game reaches its potential, but many do. And our track record and heritage with EQ 1 I think speaks for itself. We launched with a fun and ambitious game, and then we have lots of other ideas planned out in terms of where we want to take the game over the years. Do you really doubt this?
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Brad McQuaid
CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
www.pantheonmmo.com
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I will tell you what Brad, let's compromise here. You look into fixing offensive fighters back to a level that mkaes them fun to play again and I'll rewrite my review. Why would your developers think that a ranger is a melee'r is beyond me and take away our main form off attack and our biggest one makes no sense. Why is it that in everyone one of these games that come along the ranger always, always gets the short end of the stick? Their primary form of attack, as I have always thought, was with a bow. If this is not right then forgive me for being niave. I realize that in some fiction such as Lord of the Rings, Aragorn rarely uses his bow, yet the ranger Legalos uses it as his primary weapon. - so this can make the ranger class appear to be confusing.
The ranger you had created in the game prior to March 8th was a fun class to play and I was like...now this is finally the ranger class I can really enjoy. Then March 8th comes and Isee that our main form of attack the crit is down more then half of what it once was and my melee attacks were doing less but even then still more than my rangers crit which tells you just how bad the crit shot was nerfed.
Please I really want to enjoy your game and it is by far the best MMORPG to come along in years, but if you guys continue to take classes down in such an extreme manner basically making them unfun to play - what's the point in playing and all you've managed to do is make people upset that were really enjoying Vanguard. I think you and us(the players) can make certain compromises, we really can, but when the heavy handed methods that were used in this last patch that damaged not just rangers, but warriors, rogues and sorcerers and some others - that was not called for. Please...in the future, all we're asking is that you warn us in advance so that we can give you our feedback before you do something that is so detrimental to our characters.
I'm a huge fan of this genre, as you may have all ready figured out
, and I have seen and played my share of these games. Some of the games were decent, some were just down right bad. As it is right now Vanguard is in the gutter...I really mean it when I said I have never given a game I really liked such a low score in my reviews from previous games. That includes a game like WoW, that didn't do anything for me and made me realize that I didn't like the direction Blizzard was taking the genre. It had such a huge influence on these games design later on and who wouldn't want to copy it - it drew in more gamers then any previous MMORPG had ever seen - ever. Not even Lineage nor Lineage II could touch the number of players that WoW brought in. WoW even influenced rewrites of games that had all ready been out for a couple of years. - SWG comes to mind. But even with how I felt on a personal level with the game of WoW I did what a reviewer does and gave them a 7 when every other review was giving them a 9+.
When I had to write my review for Vanguard I was really having a hard time with it. Took me over a week to try and write a review that was honest and did not reflect my love of the game Vanguard and make me seem like the Vangirl(as I seem have been called) that I am. So I looked at it from just an average gamers point of view. What I found was I could not give Vanguard a score that would reflect my feelings, but a score that would reflect the reality of Vanguard, as I did with WoW.
You cannot use the excuse that you were forced to ship early and people should be more forgiving and understanding, not with how you released it. In this I mean, we, the people that stay up with these games knew the game was being released early, but the average gamer did not - there was no way for them to know that the game was 3 to 6 months to early. How could they know unless they read the same forums as the rest of us where you warned us that it would be released early due to finacial short falls. The least you could have done was put a disclaimer - a big one on the box and on the D2D download area to explain to potential players what you told us. You know that would have gone a long way in actually generating a positive view of Sigil and instead you're no different then all the rest. Which in all honestly I find hard to believe considering how long you've been doing this.
So this is where we are. Stop being so harsh on the player base. We, and I mean a vast amount of players, were really looked forward to this game and we were counting on you to deliver that game we have been looking for since we got hooked on these with the release of UO. Prove us all wrong. Give us that game we can have fun in. Give us that virtual world of wonderful make believe to play in and I can pretty much bet that a lot of the people that have been coming down on you hard in gaming forums all over the Internet will be there with you supporting you and Sigil. I know I will.
Thanks again for responding. It is deeply appreciated and shows that you are at least taking the time to listen to us.
A former and potential fan of Vanguard. The ball is in your court now.