On the one hand, I'm glad you're directing your anger toward the company, rather than a handful of the employees working on some part of the project at the time, or soon after.
Ofcause i dont think anyone is really pissed at the CSRs, or the DEVs, its only the company and the bosses we are angry at..
Oh, no... there are some people really pissed at me.
Oh, no... there are some people really pissed at me. Really, kk that dosent sound fair, well i hope it dont keeps you from getting jobs, like "at a job interview".
Recruiter: (reads your CV) Well everthing very good
You: yea well i pride my self on good work
Recruiter:(still reading your CV) hmm hey whats this, you worked for SOE
You: yea?
Recruiter:really? hopefully not for the SWG section
You: well accualy i did
Recruiter: (picks up the phone and dialing for security) you have 3 sec to get out of the building.
There was also a discussion from that blog....not that it maters but here it is.
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6 Comments:
I hope you ain't yelling at me man.
I feel bad that I might have forced you to explain this or something.
Yer my favorite dev, but I only give you credit for what I know you've done, which isn't much with SWG, but I don't really want to know more about that anyways, that's just distracting and awkward.
And I was actually trying to promote him a little on Halloween 'cause I felt like he slipped off the face of the earth, which means he's prolly working on something interesting.
Seriously I figgered pointing people to him would make them smarter, even if they feel like arguing with him or something.
And Halloweed was two days before I heard about the new SWG stuff.
If you ain't yelling at me, then I'm sorry for blabbering and maybe making things worse or something, please delete.
And if I did something horrible let me know more specifically so I can do something better about it than this.
I don't make fun of people I don't like, it ain't funny when I don't like someone.
And I give Raph credit for way the heck more in games than I give you, actually, if that makes you feel better.
By Ole Bald Angus the Monk, at 10:04 PM
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Heh. Nope, I aint yellin' at you.
By Jeff, at 2:39 AM
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I dont think its anything personal about Raph, but people like a figurehead to blame when things go wrong. You have to admit things went *very* wrong where SWG was concerned.
Players saw a game launched 18 months before it was ready. Who could they blame?
Players saw a SW game with such iconic professions as fencer, swordsman, pikeman, combat medic etc. The majority of the skill trees were poorly constructed or 90% useless (smuggler anyone?) Who could they blame?
Players saw a SW game with a complicated Health bar system which made no logical sense whatsoever. They saw a skill tree system that let them effectively boost their health by over 200 times by walking around with 3 Rancors. They had a world devoid of content. A game where getting buffs and travelling anywhere could take an hour etc etc.
Raphs world failed and im sorry he has to shoulder some of the blame. Obviously lots of other people deserve blame also, its just Raph is the most visible target.
You cannot make an argument that SWG was successful. It didnt come close to meeting its projected subscription targets. Not a failure on the size of Sims Online I admit, but a failure still. Thats basically the reason for these changes isnt it? Seems to me it was this or switching off the lights...
I really do hope this new version is a success, but after how badly SWG subscribers were treated, how bad the word of mouth is, how many of those 900,000 accounts are going to come back?
By Anonymous, at 6:10 AM
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Well, I'm one of those he is yelling to ;p
I've read your point of view and I don't have much to argue or criticize, but at the same time my own opinion didn't change, mostly because I wasn't really ranting, just expressing my perplexity.
On the other side I still believe that Raph should never have left the game, mostly because I believe in authorship and I wanted him to take the responsibility of the game and remain committed to it. I wanted and still want to see him discussing specific games instead of just dabbing on the high level theory. And I believe it's fair to admit that the game would be *nowhere* where it is right now if he was still at the lead. Good or bad.
Ubiq wrote:
"New blood coming onto a project bring their own ideas and ideologies."
This is undeniable. It's not "wrong" but it's a trait that cannot be dismissed. This is why I believe that Raph's SWG would be *very* different from today's SWG. And this also means that the scope and aim undoubtedly changed. The game had a rather high churn rate of developers and I'm sure it suffered because of this. It's the consequence of this.
What I believe is that after Raph left, he and the game splitted directions. It's a fact that most of the changes to the CU, professions, mechanics, PvP and this new last remodel are attempts to drag the game somewhere else. I'm not judging if better or worse, but undeniably different. I was the first to strongly criticize his ideas like I did on the thread on Grimwell and the following discussions so it's not like I'm trying to side with him. But I recognize this difference of opinions.
It's true that many elements of Raph's design remain, but what is also true is that the game didn't really try to build and improve them. We can say that some important ideas are still there, but many other were actually progressively eroded. Not expanded or made stronger. The game didn't move to bet even more on those points that made it unique, instead it was changed to move away from those positions and acquire more traditional elements (levels, simpler classes, more traditional combat etc..). Again this process was also excused because that design was being strongly criticized as "not fun". Hence the endless tries to simplify and streamline those parts that were perceived as too clunky and problematic.
It's not my intention to criticize this approach. It's like the father with the son. He taught you things, what you will do will be always influenced by what he did as also many others will feel that influence, me included. But this also fuels another personal point of view that is your own and must impose itself at some point.
And I really do hope this will go well, because if it doesn't we'll see the developers find yet another excuse to leave these game stagnate while all the work and resources are spent on stupid sequels. I wish they would keep the discussions and the development alive and vibrant, maybe without the need to change type of game and discard most of the work that was already being done...
By Abalieno, at 8:07 AM
==============================================
I usually try to restrain myself when I come here because I am not an insider or even someone like Abal that is really so seriously into this. Design review is just another small piece of entertainment I can drag out of the money I'm already spending.
That said, I can absolutely see the producers point of view on this. The game would never have really made any headway gaining ground without something radical. Skewing towards the core demographic makes perfect sense. I just wish that the emphasis wasn't pushed up in our face quite so much.
Finally to you personally, I don't understand how you guys do it. This like the third crunch this year? I appreciate your efforts.
Here's hoping you get time for a Thanksgiving dinner with your family.
By Nyght, at 10:16 AM
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I'll say that I'm not into the new changes at all. I liked the complexity that SWG provided.. it was (emphasis on was) a game like no other.
I'm ok with the idea of change however. There are a multitude of reasons that I'm not privy to that a game like SWG does change.
As a programmer of 13 years, I am disghusted with the lack of BA/QA and CMM that SWG exibits. In over a year of playing, my interest in the game has slowly declined due to a few things. Mainly, bug reports from TC being ignored, faulty QA allowing one patch to break other game mechanics, etc...
My hope with this NGE is that the players who test (for free I might add) on TC be listened to, and that this is not just another hurried to production release.
That being said, my opinions are probably fairly useless at this point, as I'm more interested in stable games.
Actually I disliked the clicky combat system almost as bad as the rest of the NGE. It was way too fast, and too uncomfortable to play in long sessions. This is why I don't think a MMOFPS will ever be more than a niche.
The SWG NGE system IS NOT a FPS. AT ALL, its still a cue based system just like the rest, the user inputs to trigger are just...different.
Other than that, i get the point mr freeman is getting at, and im not sure i would do any different given the situation... Sometimes, because of life, it can’t be about "The art" of it all.
But, i would have added to the "yes, we can do that, it is possible, but I don’t think people will like it, all they want is some content, here are some ideas".
About the FPSesq combat and the classes removing the Ralph, yeah, it totally did... When classes are introduced, it totally removes options from the hands of players, the main problem was, players had grown to love the options, everything about SWG was options.. Nothing was really imposable... Classes did remove that.
And that was SWG. (and, in this fans mind, Star wars, no one in the movies had a different skill set, they were ALL mash up of differen things)
And, IMO, people are tired of classes. (for the most part), AA lines are Options (a form of Bracketed skill system, much like the origianl skill system), SWG just gave you that choice at the beginning of the game.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
PS . What are you working on now jeff? i can only imagine this whole experience has taught you alot , be nice to see what you have learned put into practice .
I'm working on an unannounced project at Spacetime Studios.
If you remember GreenMarine, he's my boss, now.
No shitt? lol, that's awesome.
Him, you , Ralph... and the firefly IP...*dreams*
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
This Geek recomends Dell, laptops over Sonys, HP workstations, bascally anything with Sony on it does not get approved around here about 10 of us played the game we no the true Sony. NEC monitors no Sony, etc etc.
You guys cost Sony millions of dollars in other areas, My kids no better than to by Sony also.
Ah well who gives a shit who did what now. What's done is done and Smed and LEC won't change it back so F" It. Those days are gone. I'm pretty sure most everyone in the industry gets the picture, "Don't F with you players, well everyone except a few guys over at BioWare. Im also pretty sure that no mater what game you play there is gonna be someone on the team who worked for SOE at some point and most likely worked on SWG as well. SOE seems to be the place where a lot of Devs get their start. Don't know why. All I know is it's time to move on. I doubt anyone would think twice about pulling an NGE ever again in any game as big as SOE did, mainly Jeff Freeman. Lets give this Spactime studios a fair shot and see what they can produce.
Ah well who gives a shit who did what now. What's done is done and Smed and LEC won't change it back so F" It. Those days are gone. I'm pretty sure most everyone in the industry gets the picture, "Don't F with you players" well everyone except a few guys over at BioWare. I also pretty sure that no mater what game you play there is someone on the team who worked for SOE at some point and most likely worked on SWG as well. SOE seems to be the place where a lot of Devs get their start. Don't know why. All I know is it's time to move on. I doubt anyone would think twice about pulling an NGE ever again in any game, mainly Jeff Freeman. Lets give this Spactime studios a fair shot and see what they can produce.
The combat did need changed in SWG tho , be it balanced or reworked , thats not what killed the game tho i feel . and just a new combat system added , fleshed out content and we would all still be playing it today .
it wasnt just combat changed tho, it was the style of the game itself , world of wookies was a clone ,looted items rather than looted components , and with it and the CU came the death of crafters . that removed 1/2 of the game right there and started a knock on effect .
a new combat system coulda been fun yeah , and it could have been dropped into the game with not to much uproar .
thing is , SWG had nailed everything but combat and content (big parts i know , but geo caves were good, and a fleshing out of the POI's would have been just like the game was intended) , while trying to get that sorted , a big eye should have been kept on what was keeping the vets interested , pvp , crafting and the economy , player towns and housing , component and res farming , socialising . and doing everything possible to keep them intact . SWG was all about crafting and my shop for me , we didnt even get given a thought .
i still say it was the change in loot system and player crafted items that killed the game .game design was chasing wow .
Well, big props to you, Jeff for coming here and being honest. Many people have said that SWG will be a case study in many areas in the future.
I have a question for you that NDA's may or may not prevent you from answering. IP fees for licensing aside, was SWG a huge (meaning much more so than other games) startup cost? (Again, not including IP fees)
Because SWG aimed so high in areas, and still is the top of the line in many areas. I have never seen better in these areas:
1.) The avatar customization engine.
2.) The player housing (including ability to decorate) and player cities.
3.) The intricacy of the crafting system (rotating resources across multiple planets with the quality of resources affecting the outcome, being able to experiment on different traits of the product, etc. It's still awesome now, just the decision was made to put the final product well below loot. Shame.)
4.) Pets, Bio-Engineers, etc.
I am sure there are other areas that are slipping my mind, but my question is this. SWG had sandbox play but should have had more content in the game also... Still, I feel that the original iteration of SWG was one of the most intellectual games out there, but it was VERY complex.
Is a game with so much customization available to players and so complex just too pricey to develop again in the current market? (Again, assuming no IP licensing fees.)
Altre Monserrat - MBH/MP Aaden Monserrat - Elder Jedi Starsider - <DFC> - Dark Force Clan
I have one important question for Mr Freeman. Something most of us want to know. Where are the naked Twi Lek chicks? I know you guys made em!
BTW- That would have been the BEST (or is it BREAST?) Vet reward EVER!
90% of MMORPG players admit they are perverts, if you are part of the 10% you're a LIAR!
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii. --In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses. --The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence! --CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
I sincerely am not happy over the whole NGE incident, but I don't hold it against the employee's not responsible or against the company itself. Nor do I carry a grudge against the people who were responsible. But if I had one question to ask you guys, it would be this. Why on earth can you not have a Pre-NGE server along with your NGE servers? Mythic did it with DAoC.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
On the one hand, I'm glad you're directing your anger toward the company, rather than a handful of the employees working on some part of the project at the time, or soon after.
Ofcause i dont think anyone is really pissed at the CSRs, or the DEVs, its only the company and the bosses we are angry at..
Oh, no... there are some people really pissed at me.
You say this as if there is no reason for it.
Let's not forget who the victims are in all this and who the perps are.
Do I hate you? Of course not. I try not to hate anyone. Do I blame you for the NGE? Yes, you and everyone else who willingly took part in developing it and concealing it from us.
Everyone from the guy who replaced my combat UI with crosshairs (you) to the managers who decided to NGE to the blind artist who thought that the chrome frilly UI skin was a good idea deserve their share of the blame. All of you, no exceptions.
Will names associated with the NGE affect my purchasing decisions?
Damn straight.
Don't think that we will go away when SWG does (I still think it's likely to happen sooner rather than later). Not as long as we are still game buyers and you guys still intend to be game makers.
I do have a serious question for you though:
Do you think the NGE was, in retrospect, a mistake (which you seem to be saying) because:
A. It killed the game because it shafted long time players who loved a completely different game.
B. It sucked on it's own merits, wasn't fun, and was years away from being a legitimate, release quality product
You see, I still think you are equivocating, just like Smed and company who still cling to thinking that the NGE wasn't a mistake, it was the badly handled PR that was the mistake.
What you seem to be saying is that the NGE was a mistake, but only because it was done to an already established game, that had it been SWG to begin with, it'd have worked and been a great idea.
I think for a lot of us gamers, we want to think Devs are like us, but have a really cool job. Which probably is the reason why get angrier at you (devs) than other parties, because we think "How could they do this to us, they are suppose to be one of us". Management is suppose to be weasels, marketing is suppose to be cluesless, but Developers are suppose to love what we love....or we wouldn't want to play their games.
You know what. I am glad that you actually have gone through the trouble of posting. it helps getting a different perspective on what may have happened. Doesn't mean I think anything is better, I still miss pre-cu....but atleast I have more answers than I previously did.
Ah well who gives a shit who did what now. What's done is done and Smed and LEC won't change it back so F" It. Those days are gone. I'm pretty sure most everyone in the industry gets the picture, "Don't F with you players, well everyone except a few guys over at BioWare. Im also pretty sure that no mater what game you play there is gonna be someone on the team who worked for SOE at some point and most likely worked on SWG as well. SOE seems to be the place where a lot of Devs get their start. Don't know why. All I know is it's time to move on. I doubt anyone would think twice about pulling an NGE ever again in any game as big as SOE did, mainly Jeff Freeman. Lets give this Spactime studios a fair shot and see what they can produce.
Actually you caught exactly what I was thinking when I started this thread. The main reason I has been angry is that SOE didnt open up classic servers for us after forcing the NGE on us. It would have been a nice gesture. I have never been angry at Mr Freeman(even though I find parts of this blog a little insensitive against the playerbase). In 50 years when I sit on my porch in my rockin chair I will probly think back on the good old days when the NGE destroyed the SWG and smile and think "pwnd!".
Me posting this blog now was like saying "well look, this is the way it turned out, it could have been done much better, please remember this the next time."
SWG is done and gone in my world, now I looking forward towards ST:O and the WH40K mmog just announced.
I think at the highest levels, they disbelieved the vets would alienated to the degree they were. Not that they were tossing you out for their new customers.
Is this because they weren't remotely famliar with the game? To me that seems like the only logical explantion and refused to listen to what the team was telling them? Was Smedly (or whoever is the "higest levels") really that clueless about the game and the impact of the changes? I mean you would have to know next to nothing about the game to not have seen the train wreck coming.
Assuming the "highest levels" were familar with the game, How could anyone think that destroying everything most of the players had acheived was going to produce even a merely apathetic response? From your posts earlier, it was clear that at least the team working on the NGE knew the reaction would be very negative (more than one team member asked to be transfered off the team because they didnt' want to be a part of it). If it produced that response by SOE's employees, they had to know the players response would be more.
I think the fact that SOE was designing this think in top secret (and actively misled the players so as to keep it a secret--the Amazon.com ad, the professions revamps designed very publically, the ToOW ad, flat out denying rumours about Jedi being given away as a free profession) is a pretty clear indication you guys knew we would hate it and you had decided you were going to go through with it whether we hated it not.
On the one hand, I'm glad you're directing your anger toward the company, rather than a handful of the employees working on some part of the project at the time, or soon after.
Ofcause i dont think anyone is really pissed at the CSRs, or the DEVs, its only the company and the bosses we are angry at..
Oh, no... there are some people really pissed at me.
Naturally I can't speak for everyone, but as for myself I am not "pissed" at anyone. I am just really disappointed and sad. A Star Wars MMO is the only MMO I ever wanted to play and now the only choice available to me is a mockery which reminds me of everything I lost in a sneak attack that arrived just after I paid for an expansion that contained content for character classes which were being eliminated from the game.
Didn't anyone in that company ever question the ethics of selling a publish full of new content for classes that were being eliminated from the game? That particular issue seems to get glossed over by everyone who discusses the NGE yet it is the number one reason I won't ever trust SOE again.
I just want to know when im going to get a new game thats not a clone of EQ or WoW.If anything i dont see how the industry can view precu as unsuccessfull..The old game is allmost 2 years gone and you have thousands of players craving for another just like it..Then you have thousands wanting to know what those first thousands keep talking about..The gaming industry follows the bad hollywood trend of make a great movie then sequel the hell out of it till it bombs..
Personally i havent purchased many games since SWG died.They all bore me some faster than others but none have the "I cant wait to log in effect" Swg had..The problem is games like WoW may have alot of players now but what about 2 years from now? That kinda gameplay gets old and stale fast..Doesnt mean its a bad game just it has no unique gameplay that holds my intrest..And consider most of us have played most of them but still would rather play SWGclassic.
And Dundee since your posting again what direction or type of game is your studio planning? SCI-FI Fantasy another EQ clone? Or will you make a similar version game as the old SWG?Since i think you should now know there would be a huge market for another Sandbox None-level based game..
***Dundee all you'd have to tell me is my game will Have these elements--->
*Skill/profession based-No elves or Orcs-
*Player made items better than looted ones
*Melee combat as well as ranged
*A game that lets our players do what they want how they want
*And it will remain true to the original concept--NO MASSIVE CHANGES EVER just content and tweaks
*It will also have States ie dizzy knockdown
*Cool animations no flashy sparkels or lame Medic crosses in mail letters scattering all over the screen
*A good ole Tef system based on factional choices overt covert and offer PvP choice server with TEF system rulesets..
*Professions with strengths and weaknesses
*And last but not least it will offer a Higher or better Elite profession..With a risk reward system
i could list more but you get the idea..........Id preorder that game and request beta tester status today...
PS . What are you working on now jeff? i can only imagine this whole experience has taught you alot , be nice to see what you have learned put into practice .
I'm working on an unannounced project at Spacetime Studios.
If you remember GreenMarine, he's my boss, now.
I remember GreenMarine. He seemed to be one of the more intelligent and level headed members of the team to me. I seem to recall he was making intelligent posts about revamping smuggler which got lots of people excited, then was put on the JTL team and then left for parts unknown.
I am hoping since you both worked on JTL (which was a very good expansion in my book btw) AND the name of the company is Spacetime that the project you guys are working on is a space based sci fi project. The MMO world is dieing for a decent sci fi title and Eve just doesn't cut it for me. Fallen Earth piques my interest, but more because it is skill based instead of class based and its not elves and dragons than for any other reasons.
On the one hand, I'm glad you're directing your anger toward the company, rather than a handful of the employees working on some part of the project at the time, or soon after.
Ofcause i dont think anyone is really pissed at the CSRs, or the DEVs, its only the company and the bosses we are angry at..
Oh, no... there are some people really pissed at me.
You say this as if there is no reason for it.
I am just deadpan like that, sometimes.
I do have a serious question for you though: Do you think the NGE was, in retrospect, a mistake (which you seem to be saying) because: A. It killed the game because it shafted long time players who loved a completely different game. B. It sucked on it's own merits, wasn't fun, and was years away from being a legitimate, release quality product
I think it was a mistake because of the impact it had on vets. It wouldn't have been a good thing to do even if one million shiny new players materialized out of no where, made execs look genius. That is, A, but without the "It killed the game because"-part.
You see, I still think you are equivocating, just like Smed and company who still cling to thinking that the NGE wasn't a mistake, it was the badly handled PR that was the mistake.
It wasn't a mistake to try to bring in new players, blow 'em away with a slick introduction to the game, provide more guidance to them in terms of how to get from where they start (lousy noob) to where they want to be (badass Star Wars character).
Good PR would have made the vets partners in that undertaking, so the NGE wouldn't have been devastating to many vets as it was. Rather than NGE, it would have been the OGE, with vets grassroots marketing efforts being supportive rather than enraged.
What you seem to be saying is that the NGE was a mistake, but only because it was done to an already established game, that had it been SWG to begin with, it'd have worked and been a great idea.
Hrm, no. The impact the NGE had on vets was one of the topmost worst things about it, which wouldn't have been an issue at launch.
But I think what you're replying to there was my saying it's possible to design a "worldy" sort of MMO even with classes, or twitch-n-click combat, and even with quests for good loot.
I often heard the classic swg design was too complicated for the new devs that came in around 2004, and thats where it all seemed to go downhill.
What was wrong with the original CU1 that had all the DOT and armor fixes that players wanted but was changed to that particle effect nightmare called CU2? Basically what we got on live servers... Some people don't even know there was a CU1 and CU2.. CU2 was what went live..
Star Wars had a huge lore and story base to draw from and you guys did absolutely squat with it. Im talking about the fact that nothing was ever added for high end PVE- named bosses, and high end raid zones.. Maybe not 3 hrs dungeons like eq2 has but something a group of 6-12 players could go and do.. The games key problems were ignored for just too damn long and when changes came they were not what any one asked for or wanted.. Hence your mass exodus..
I remember a large uproar over JTL.. Again, SOE failed to understand what its current player base wanted.. Maybe if JTL had capitol ships that could be boarded and loot hoarded like an instance ground dungeon ya it might have been something worthwhile.. Other than that it was pointless and useless to 80% of us..
ROTW was the smallest adventure pack I ever seen sold for 30 bucks by SONY. I played Eq2 and if you guys tried to sell a ROTW type adventure pack for 30 bucks, heads would of rolled in eq2. It was worth 10 bucks IMO as far as quantity goes.. TOOW was a much improved expansion worth maybe 15 bucks for what it offered when compared side by side to an expack like Echos of Faydark (eq2 xpack).
Again, here we have 2 games made by the same company and one just got the bare minimum with regards to xpacks and content and the other bustled with it.. And then they're left scratching their ignorant heads over what went wrong and when.. Any moron could see what went wrong and when...
First of all you provided the bare minimum for content and bug fixes and charged a premium price, and 2 combat revamps both sucking worse than its predecessor. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out this stuff. You just had to play the game I guess..
I'm sorry but the NGE did KILL THE GAME, when you destroy peoples avatars what do they have to play for any more?
My Main was a Jedi MAster Ligtsaber, Master Defender, etc all I worked for was taken away from me why? My Alt was a Armor Smith and Tailor ohh those two don't go together in the NGE. Account Cancelled!
My 2nd account had a Jedi Healer that was also a Master Doctor very hard to kill, his alt was a RANGER, Ranger was a very rewarding profession wait ohhhh no they killed may Ranger. Account Cancelled!
Did you all really think destroying Avatars that took years to build that we would stay? Sorry we are not that stupid after all ehh?
Actually I don't like you or anyone that was part of this NGE mess your recent posts have really helped me to understand how really Dumb you all where.
Most Players playing the game that no longer lives where 20+ in age, we had muliti accounts and planed on playing a very long time.
Awe why waste my time you must not have played the SWG I knew or else you would have fallen in love with it as I did.
I wrote this reply as a blog update, so that's why it is so... cheeky. But since it was a reply to you, figured I ought to cross-post it, too.
Originally posted by Dvol
I just want to know when im going to get a new game thats not a clone of EQ or WoW.
Uhm… Soon!
Seriously, we’re going to have a flood of all sorts of different MMOs. Not even all MMORPGs, some may provoke arguments as to whether they are real MMOs. Or even as to whether they are real games.
There’s a crazy amount of MMO diversity in Asia, and anything not coming here directly, is going to be influencing the games being made here. Then those other games’ sequels will come here, too.
Some of the same ‘ol, but some different stuff.
Even if you personally avoid MMO console games, you’ll still benefit from the gameplay examples they set for PC MMOs. Some new, different things will come of that, even without just straight copying the console gameplay.
And with straight copying? Well that’s still an improvement over just the one thing we have to copy now.
Of course there will also be other games. Little things, briefly entertaining, many even online (just almost in that special way we like, but not quite). Though merely distractions to pass time while we wait for a non-clone MMO, they can be enjoyable online activities.
Some may even be more fun than griefing Wikipedia, if not quite as sticky.
Annnnnd… Well, do you like pirates?
This year it’s all pirates. Somewhere between 4 and 37 pirate MMOs rolling out, since that was the unique idea for an MMO that everyone embraced two or three years ago when all their Viking MMOs were canceled.
After pirate-year…
The Eve Online devs are not going to make a stock-MUD, tanker-nuker-healer, three-diku World of Darkness game. There’s just no way, no how. Impossible. I refuse to entertain the thought. Shup!
That one is less than a half-decade away, still practically riding on the heals of the 80’s Vampire-chic fad, when you consider how long Vampires live.
Ok, so otherwise, maybe there will be some WoW-clone failures, and some Second Life-like flops, and possibly a revelation some day that there are so not millions of people really playing… one of those two.
I would say we are about to see a truly massive explosion in the quantity of online worlds, like Korea saw. The vast majority will not be retail box products. We’re starting to see… you saw darkstar just open sourced a perfectly viable MMO engine. You can pick it up for free. We’re going to start to see a helluva lot more… stuff.
So there’s a bright future out there, just over the horizon at the very spot your superstitious pirate-crew believes the ocean runs off the edge of the earth, down into the mouths of monsters. A bright future indeed (in spite of the fact that your crew may be correct in their beliefs, it being a videogame ocean and all).
Not today, but someday, Game and World will meet. They’ll fall in love, or at least settle, and have some normal kids.
Not tomorrow or the next day, either.
Old-timers - as we will all be by then - might even fail to recognize normal when we see it. Odds are stacked against us, we who jumped the gun, started playing MMOs before they were even good.
Comments
Oh, no... there are some people really pissed at me.
Jeff Freeman
Originally posted by Dundee
Oh, no... there are some people really pissed at me. Really, kk that dosent sound fair, well i hope it dont keeps you from getting jobs, like "at a job interview".
Recruiter: (reads your CV) Well everthing very good
You: yea well i pride my self on good work
Recruiter:(still reading your CV) hmm hey whats this, you worked for SOE
You: yea?
Recruiter:really? hopefully not for the SWG section
You: well accualy i did
Recruiter: (picks up the phone and dialing for security) you have 3 sec to get out of the building.
(just a funny stetch, i dont mean anything by it)
hmm seems like John Moved on, check this www.rakuten.co.jp/mandm-website/730333/749095/
hmm coinsadence or? well i fuckced up the gaming industri at SOE, now i will make clothes in england?
There was also a discussion from that blog....not that it maters but here it is.
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6 Comments:
I hope you ain't yelling at me man.
I feel bad that I might have forced you to explain this or something.
Yer my favorite dev, but I only give you credit for what I know you've done, which isn't much with SWG, but I don't really want to know more about that anyways, that's just distracting and awkward.
And I was actually trying to promote him a little on Halloween 'cause I felt like he slipped off the face of the earth, which means he's prolly working on something interesting.
Seriously I figgered pointing people to him would make them smarter, even if they feel like arguing with him or something.
And Halloweed was two days before I heard about the new SWG stuff.
If you ain't yelling at me, then I'm sorry for blabbering and maybe making things worse or something, please delete.
And if I did something horrible let me know more specifically so I can do something better about it than this.
I don't make fun of people I don't like, it ain't funny when I don't like someone.
And I give Raph credit for way the heck more in games than I give you, actually, if that makes you feel better.
By Ole Bald Angus the Monk, at 10:04 PM
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Heh. Nope, I aint yellin' at you.
By Jeff, at 2:39 AM
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I dont think its anything personal about Raph, but people like a figurehead to blame when things go wrong. You have to admit things went *very* wrong where SWG was concerned.
Players saw a game launched 18 months before it was ready. Who could they blame?
Players saw a SW game with such iconic professions as fencer, swordsman, pikeman, combat medic etc. The majority of the skill trees were poorly constructed or 90% useless (smuggler anyone?) Who could they blame?
Players saw a SW game with a complicated Health bar system which made no logical sense whatsoever. They saw a skill tree system that let them effectively boost their health by over 200 times by walking around with 3 Rancors. They had a world devoid of content. A game where getting buffs and travelling anywhere could take an hour etc etc.
Raphs world failed and im sorry he has to shoulder some of the blame. Obviously lots of other people deserve blame also, its just Raph is the most visible target.
You cannot make an argument that SWG was successful. It didnt come close to meeting its projected subscription targets. Not a failure on the size of Sims Online I admit, but a failure still. Thats basically the reason for these changes isnt it? Seems to me it was this or switching off the lights...
I really do hope this new version is a success, but after how badly SWG subscribers were treated, how bad the word of mouth is, how many of those 900,000 accounts are going to come back?
By Anonymous, at 6:10 AM
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Well, I'm one of those he is yelling to ;p
I've read your point of view and I don't have much to argue or criticize, but at the same time my own opinion didn't change, mostly because I wasn't really ranting, just expressing my perplexity.
On the other side I still believe that Raph should never have left the game, mostly because I believe in authorship and I wanted him to take the responsibility of the game and remain committed to it. I wanted and still want to see him discussing specific games instead of just dabbing on the high level theory. And I believe it's fair to admit that the game would be *nowhere* where it is right now if he was still at the lead. Good or bad.
Ubiq wrote:
"New blood coming onto a project bring their own ideas and ideologies."
This is undeniable. It's not "wrong" but it's a trait that cannot be dismissed. This is why I believe that Raph's SWG would be *very* different from today's SWG. And this also means that the scope and aim undoubtedly changed. The game had a rather high churn rate of developers and I'm sure it suffered because of this. It's the consequence of this.
What I believe is that after Raph left, he and the game splitted directions. It's a fact that most of the changes to the CU, professions, mechanics, PvP and this new last remodel are attempts to drag the game somewhere else. I'm not judging if better or worse, but undeniably different. I was the first to strongly criticize his ideas like I did on the thread on Grimwell and the following discussions so it's not like I'm trying to side with him. But I recognize this difference of opinions.
It's true that many elements of Raph's design remain, but what is also true is that the game didn't really try to build and improve them. We can say that some important ideas are still there, but many other were actually progressively eroded. Not expanded or made stronger. The game didn't move to bet even more on those points that made it unique, instead it was changed to move away from those positions and acquire more traditional elements (levels, simpler classes, more traditional combat etc..). Again this process was also excused because that design was being strongly criticized as "not fun". Hence the endless tries to simplify and streamline those parts that were perceived as too clunky and problematic.
It's not my intention to criticize this approach. It's like the father with the son. He taught you things, what you will do will be always influenced by what he did as also many others will feel that influence, me included. But this also fuels another personal point of view that is your own and must impose itself at some point.
And I really do hope this will go well, because if it doesn't we'll see the developers find yet another excuse to leave these game stagnate while all the work and resources are spent on stupid sequels. I wish they would keep the discussions and the development alive and vibrant, maybe without the need to change type of game and discard most of the work that was already being done...
By Abalieno, at 8:07 AM
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I usually try to restrain myself when I come here because I am not an insider or even someone like Abal that is really so seriously into this. Design review is just another small piece of entertainment I can drag out of the money I'm already spending.
That said, I can absolutely see the producers point of view on this. The game would never have really made any headway gaining ground without something radical. Skewing towards the core demographic makes perfect sense. I just wish that the emphasis wasn't pushed up in our face quite so much.
Finally to you personally, I don't understand how you guys do it. This like the third crunch this year? I appreciate your efforts.
Here's hoping you get time for a Thanksgiving dinner with your family.
By Nyght, at 10:16 AM
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I'll say that I'm not into the new changes at all. I liked the complexity that SWG provided.. it was (emphasis on was) a game like no other.
I'm ok with the idea of change however. There are a multitude of reasons that I'm not privy to that a game like SWG does change.
As a programmer of 13 years, I am disghusted with the lack of BA/QA and CMM that SWG exibits. In over a year of playing, my interest in the game has slowly declined due to a few things. Mainly, bug reports from TC being ignored, faulty QA allowing one patch to break other game mechanics, etc...
My hope with this NGE is that the players who test (for free I might add) on TC be listened to, and that this is not just another hurried to production release.
That being said, my opinions are probably fairly useless at this point, as I'm more interested in stable games.
I wish you the best in your endeavors.
By jeff, at 4:48 PM
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The SWG NGE system IS NOT a FPS. AT ALL, its still a cue based system just like the rest, the user inputs to trigger are just...different.
Other than that, i get the point mr freeman is getting at, and im not sure i would do any different given the situation... Sometimes, because of life, it can’t be about "The art" of it all.
But, i would have added to the "yes, we can do that, it is possible, but I don’t think people will like it, all they want is some content, here are some ideas".
About the FPSesq combat and the classes removing the Ralph, yeah, it totally did... When classes are introduced, it totally removes options from the hands of players, the main problem was, players had grown to love the options, everything about SWG was options.. Nothing was really imposable... Classes did remove that.
And that was SWG. (and, in this fans mind, Star wars, no one in the movies had a different skill set, they were ALL mash up of differen things)
And, IMO, people are tired of classes. (for the most part), AA lines are Options (a form of Bracketed skill system, much like the origianl skill system), SWG just gave you that choice at the beginning of the game.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
If you remember GreenMarine, he's my boss, now.
No shitt? lol, that's awesome.
Him, you , Ralph... and the firefly IP...*dreams*
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
This Geek recomends Dell, laptops over Sonys, HP workstations, bascally anything with Sony on it does not get approved around here about 10 of us played the game we no the true Sony. NEC monitors no Sony, etc etc.
You guys cost Sony millions of dollars in other areas, My kids no better than to by Sony also.
Ajax
Ajax
The combat did need changed in SWG tho , be it balanced or reworked , thats not what killed the game tho i feel . and just a new combat system added , fleshed out content and we would all still be playing it today .
it wasnt just combat changed tho, it was the style of the game itself , world of wookies was a clone ,looted items rather than looted components , and with it and the CU came the death of crafters . that removed 1/2 of the game right there and started a knock on effect .
a new combat system coulda been fun yeah , and it could have been dropped into the game with not to much uproar .
thing is , SWG had nailed everything but combat and content (big parts i know , but geo caves were good, and a fleshing out of the POI's would have been just like the game was intended) , while trying to get that sorted , a big eye should have been kept on what was keeping the vets interested , pvp , crafting and the economy , player towns and housing , component and res farming , socialising . and doing everything possible to keep them intact . SWG was all about crafting and my shop for me , we didnt even get given a thought .
i still say it was the change in loot system and player crafted items that killed the game .game design was chasing wow .
Well, big props to you, Jeff for coming here and being honest. Many people have said that SWG will be a case study in many areas in the future.
I have a question for you that NDA's may or may not prevent you from answering. IP fees for licensing aside, was SWG a huge (meaning much more so than other games) startup cost? (Again, not including IP fees)
Because SWG aimed so high in areas, and still is the top of the line in many areas. I have never seen better in these areas:
1.) The avatar customization engine.
2.) The player housing (including ability to decorate) and player cities.
3.) The intricacy of the crafting system (rotating resources across multiple planets with the quality of resources affecting the outcome, being able to experiment on different traits of the product, etc. It's still awesome now, just the decision was made to put the final product well below loot. Shame.)
4.) Pets, Bio-Engineers, etc.
I am sure there are other areas that are slipping my mind, but my question is this. SWG had sandbox play but should have had more content in the game also... Still, I feel that the original iteration of SWG was one of the most intellectual games out there, but it was VERY complex.
Is a game with so much customization available to players and so complex just too pricey to develop again in the current market? (Again, assuming no IP licensing fees.)
Altre Monserrat - MBH/MP
Aaden Monserrat - Elder Jedi
Starsider - <DFC> - Dark Force Clan
BTW- That would have been the BEST (or is it BREAST?) Vet reward EVER!
90% of MMORPG players admit they are perverts, if you are part of the 10% you're a LIAR!
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii.
--In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses.
--The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence!
--CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
Dundee,
I sincerely am not happy over the whole NGE incident, but I don't hold it against the employee's not responsible or against the company itself. Nor do I carry a grudge against the people who were responsible. But if I had one question to ask you guys, it would be this. Why on earth can you not have a Pre-NGE server along with your NGE servers? Mythic did it with DAoC.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
You say this as if there is no reason for it.
Let's not forget who the victims are in all this and who the perps are.
Do I hate you? Of course not. I try not to hate anyone. Do I blame you for the NGE? Yes, you and everyone else who willingly took part in developing it and concealing it from us.
Everyone from the guy who replaced my combat UI with crosshairs (you) to the managers who decided to NGE to the blind artist who thought that the chrome frilly UI skin was a good idea deserve their share of the blame. All of you, no exceptions.
Will names associated with the NGE affect my purchasing decisions?
Damn straight.
Don't think that we will go away when SWG does (I still think it's likely to happen sooner rather than later). Not as long as we are still game buyers and you guys still intend to be game makers.
I do have a serious question for you though:
Do you think the NGE was, in retrospect, a mistake (which you seem to be saying) because:
A. It killed the game because it shafted long time players who loved a completely different game.
B. It sucked on it's own merits, wasn't fun, and was years away from being a legitimate, release quality product
You see, I still think you are equivocating, just like Smed and company who still cling to thinking that the NGE wasn't a mistake, it was the badly handled PR that was the mistake.
What you seem to be saying is that the NGE was a mistake, but only because it was done to an already established game, that had it been SWG to begin with, it'd have worked and been a great idea.
You know what. I am glad that you actually have gone through the trouble of posting. it helps getting a different perspective on what may have happened. Doesn't mean I think anything is better, I still miss pre-cu....but atleast I have more answers than I previously did.
Me posting this blog now was like saying "well look, this is the way it turned out, it could have been done much better, please remember this the next time."
SWG is done and gone in my world, now I looking forward towards ST:O and the WH40K mmog just announced.
Is this because they weren't remotely famliar with the game? To me that seems like the only logical explantion and refused to listen to what the team was telling them? Was Smedly (or whoever is the "higest levels") really that clueless about the game and the impact of the changes? I mean you would have to know next to nothing about the game to not have seen the train wreck coming.
Assuming the "highest levels" were familar with the game, How could anyone think that destroying everything most of the players had acheived was going to produce even a merely apathetic response? From your posts earlier, it was clear that at least the team working on the NGE knew the reaction would be very negative (more than one team member asked to be transfered off the team because they didnt' want to be a part of it). If it produced that response by SOE's employees, they had to know the players response would be more.
I think the fact that SOE was designing this think in top secret (and actively misled the players so as to keep it a secret--the Amazon.com ad, the professions revamps designed very publically, the ToOW ad, flat out denying rumours about Jedi being given away as a free profession) is a pretty clear indication you guys knew we would hate it and you had decided you were going to go through with it whether we hated it not.
Oh, no... there are some people really pissed at me.
Naturally I can't speak for everyone, but as for myself I am not "pissed" at anyone. I am just really disappointed and sad. A Star Wars MMO is the only MMO I ever wanted to play and now the only choice available to me is a mockery which reminds me of everything I lost in a sneak attack that arrived just after I paid for an expansion that contained content for character classes which were being eliminated from the game.
Didn't anyone in that company ever question the ethics of selling a publish full of new content for classes that were being eliminated from the game? That particular issue seems to get glossed over by everyone who discusses the NGE yet it is the number one reason I won't ever trust SOE again.
I just want to know when im going to get a new game thats not a clone of EQ or WoW.If anything i dont see how the industry can view precu as unsuccessfull..The old game is allmost 2 years gone and you have thousands of players craving for another just like it..Then you have thousands wanting to know what those first thousands keep talking about..The gaming industry follows the bad hollywood trend of make a great movie then sequel the hell out of it till it bombs..
Personally i havent purchased many games since SWG died.They all bore me some faster than others but none have the "I cant wait to log in effect" Swg had..The problem is games like WoW may have alot of players now but what about 2 years from now? That kinda gameplay gets old and stale fast..Doesnt mean its a bad game just it has no unique gameplay that holds my intrest..And consider most of us have played most of them but still would rather play SWGclassic.
And Dundee since your posting again what direction or type of game is your studio planning? SCI-FI Fantasy another EQ clone? Or will you make a similar version game as the old SWG?Since i think you should now know there would be a huge market for another Sandbox None-level based game..
***Dundee all you'd have to tell me is my game will Have these elements--->
*Skill/profession based-No elves or Orcs-
*Player made items better than looted ones
*Melee combat as well as ranged
*A game that lets our players do what they want how they want
*And it will remain true to the original concept--NO MASSIVE CHANGES EVER just content and tweaks
*It will also have States ie dizzy knockdown
*Cool animations no flashy sparkels or lame Medic crosses in mail letters scattering all over the screen
*A good ole Tef system based on factional choices overt covert and offer PvP choice server with TEF system rulesets..
*Professions with strengths and weaknesses
*And last but not least it will offer a Higher or better Elite profession..With a risk reward system
i could list more but you get the idea..........Id preorder that game and request beta tester status today...
If you remember GreenMarine, he's my boss, now.
I remember GreenMarine. He seemed to be one of the more intelligent and level headed members of the team to me. I seem to recall he was making intelligent posts about revamping smuggler which got lots of people excited, then was put on the JTL team and then left for parts unknown.
I am hoping since you both worked on JTL (which was a very good expansion in my book btw) AND the name of the company is Spacetime that the project you guys are working on is a space based sci fi project. The MMO world is dieing for a decent sci fi title and Eve just doesn't cut it for me. Fallen Earth piques my interest, but more because it is skill based instead of class based and its not elves and dragons than for any other reasons.
Oh, no... there are some people really pissed at me.
You say this as if there is no reason for it.
I am just deadpan like that, sometimes.
I think it was a mistake because of the impact it had on vets. It wouldn't have been a good thing to do even if one million shiny new players materialized out of no where, made execs look genius. That is, A, but without the "It killed the game because"-part.
It wasn't a mistake to try to bring in new players, blow 'em away with a slick introduction to the game, provide more guidance to them in terms of how to get from where they start (lousy noob) to where they want to be (badass Star Wars character).
Good PR would have made the vets partners in that undertaking, so the NGE wouldn't have been devastating to many vets as it was. Rather than NGE, it would have been the OGE, with vets grassroots marketing efforts being supportive rather than enraged.
Hrm, no. The impact the NGE had on vets was one of the topmost worst things about it, which wouldn't have been an issue at launch.
But I think what you're replying to there was my saying it's possible to design a "worldy" sort of MMO even with classes, or twitch-n-click combat, and even with quests for good loot.
'Not that the NGE was that, I'm just sayin'.
Jeff Freeman
Hey Jeff,
I just want to thank you for stepping in here and putting a human face on things.
I really don't have anything to add that hasn't been said already. And anything I said would come out nasty, anyway.
I still hate $OE and just about everything it stands for, but that is for things beyond SWG.
At any rate, you have probably done more good here in the few posts you have made then all of $OE up to this point.
Good luck with your new project, I hope it turns out well.
What was wrong with the original CU1 that had all the DOT and armor fixes that players wanted but was changed to that particle effect nightmare called CU2? Basically what we got on live servers... Some people don't even know there was a CU1 and CU2.. CU2 was what went live..
Star Wars had a huge lore and story base to draw from and you guys did absolutely squat with it. Im talking about the fact that nothing was ever added for high end PVE- named bosses, and high end raid zones.. Maybe not 3 hrs dungeons like eq2 has but something a group of 6-12 players could go and do.. The games key problems were ignored for just too damn long and when changes came they were not what any one asked for or wanted.. Hence your mass exodus..
I remember a large uproar over JTL.. Again, SOE failed to understand what its current player base wanted.. Maybe if JTL had capitol ships that could be boarded and loot hoarded like an instance ground dungeon ya it might have been something worthwhile.. Other than that it was pointless and useless to 80% of us..
ROTW was the smallest adventure pack I ever seen sold for 30 bucks by SONY. I played Eq2 and if you guys tried to sell a ROTW type adventure pack for 30 bucks, heads would of rolled in eq2. It was worth 10 bucks IMO as far as quantity goes.. TOOW was a much improved expansion worth maybe 15 bucks for what it offered when compared side by side to an expack like Echos of Faydark (eq2 xpack).
Again, here we have 2 games made by the same company and one just got the bare minimum with regards to xpacks and content and the other bustled with it.. And then they're left scratching their ignorant heads over what went wrong and when.. Any moron could see what went wrong and when...
First of all you provided the bare minimum for content and bug fixes and charged a premium price, and 2 combat revamps both sucking worse than its predecessor. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out this stuff. You just had to play the game I guess..
Mr. Freeman,
I'm sorry but the NGE did KILL THE GAME, when you destroy peoples avatars what do they have to play for any more?
My Main was a Jedi MAster Ligtsaber, Master Defender, etc all I worked for was taken away from me why? My Alt was a Armor Smith and Tailor ohh those two don't go together in the NGE. Account Cancelled!
My 2nd account had a Jedi Healer that was also a Master Doctor very hard to kill, his alt was a RANGER, Ranger was a very rewarding profession wait ohhhh no they killed may Ranger. Account Cancelled!
Did you all really think destroying Avatars that took years to build that we would stay? Sorry we are not that stupid after all ehh?
Actually I don't like you or anyone that was part of this NGE mess your recent posts have really helped me to understand how really Dumb you all where.
Most Players playing the game that no longer lives where 20+ in age, we had muliti accounts and planed on playing a very long time.
Awe why waste my time you must not have played the SWG I knew or else you would have fallen in love with it as I did.
Punk!
Ajax
Uhm… Soon!
Seriously, we’re going to have a flood of all sorts of different MMOs. Not even all MMORPGs, some may provoke arguments as to whether they are real MMOs. Or even as to whether they are real games.
There’s a crazy amount of MMO diversity in Asia, and anything not coming here directly, is going to be influencing the games being made here. Then those other games’ sequels will come here, too.
Some of the same ‘ol, but some different stuff.
Even if you personally avoid MMO console games, you’ll still benefit from the gameplay examples they set for PC MMOs. Some new, different things will come of that, even without just straight copying the console gameplay.
And with straight copying? Well that’s still an improvement over just the one thing we have to copy now.
Of course there will also be other games. Little things, briefly entertaining, many even online (just almost in that special way we like, but not quite). Though merely distractions to pass time while we wait for a non-clone MMO, they can be enjoyable online activities.
Some may even be more fun than griefing Wikipedia, if not quite as sticky.
Annnnnd… Well, do you like pirates?
This year it’s all pirates. Somewhere between 4 and 37 pirate MMOs rolling out, since that was the unique idea for an MMO that everyone embraced two or three years ago when all their Viking MMOs were canceled.
After pirate-year…
The Eve Online devs are not going to make a stock-MUD, tanker-nuker-healer, three-diku World of Darkness game. There’s just no way, no how. Impossible. I refuse to entertain the thought. Shup!
That one is less than a half-decade away, still practically riding on the heals of the 80’s Vampire-chic fad, when you consider how long Vampires live.
Ok, so otherwise, maybe there will be some WoW-clone failures, and some Second Life-like flops, and possibly a revelation some day that there are so not millions of people really playing… one of those two.
And on top of that, this:
Wonderland quotes Raph Koster as saying:
So there’s a bright future out there, just over the horizon at the very spot your superstitious pirate-crew believes the ocean runs off the edge of the earth, down into the mouths of monsters. A bright future indeed (in spite of the fact that your crew may be correct in their beliefs, it being a videogame ocean and all).
Not today, but someday, Game and World will meet. They’ll fall in love, or at least settle, and have some normal kids.
Not tomorrow or the next day, either.
Old-timers - as we will all be by then - might even fail to recognize normal when we see it. Odds are stacked against us, we who jumped the gun, started playing MMOs before they were even good.
Jeff Freeman
Jeff Freeman