Originally posted by Jackdog giving the devil his due, Morth is a amateur Tolkien scholar who has probably has most of the Sim memorized. He has forgotten more Tolkien lore than I ever knew. The guy knows his Tolkien. However that is his downfall with the game. He wanted a sim middle earth, not a game. Morth, EP, Futsie and a few others from the old MEO boards had grand dreams of a second life in middle earth. They would have not been happy with anything that any game Devs could have produced. Maybe Turbine could have hired Koster and let him make a sandbox ala early SWG but I have a feeling that they wuld have probably found too many lore discrepencies even with that. Not a hell of a lot of people would find it wildly amusing sitting around the Prancing Pony blowing smoke rings and quaffing virtual ale for hours on end while reciting tales of their latest tater crop and where he best mushrooms could be found. In all fairness hard core Tolkien fans will probably not find this game fun, lets face it the Shire did not have 5000 players running around whacking wolves and spiders 24 and 7 in the books. However fans of the PJ movies and casual to moderate Tolkien fans such as myself will have a ball with it as well as general MMO fans who are looking for a good game just to kill of a few hours with.
Yeah, those ardapost folk are pretty out there in terms of wanting exact lore. It should have occured to them, it is impossible to make a MMO based upon exact lore. They certainly do not represent the masses.
In all fairness hard core Tolkien fans will probably not find this game fun, lets face it the Shire did not have 5000 players running around whacking wolves and spiders 24 and 7 in the books. However fans of the PJ movies and casual to moderate Tolkien fans such as myself will have a ball with it as well as general MMO fans who are looking for a good game just to kill of a few hours with.
I hear what you are saying Jack however this game is a MMORPG (MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE roleplaying game) meaning lots of players. If these "core" tolkien guys don't understand that then its their loss.
Yeah with MMO's you are never going to capture an authentic atmosphere of anything because everyone has there own playstyle and goals in game. Whatcha gonna do? Personally (and its just my opinion, LotR wouldn't make a very good "sandbox" game because the entire world was built around the context of the story. You would end up with another mess like SWG. Actual fans wouldn't like it because it resembled nothing of the "movie world" which it was suppost to be recreating then when they changed it they bastardized the whole thing and on top of it, it never really worked anyway at any point.
If these guys don't even understand what MMO's are in terms of them having large amounts of players of assorted degrees of playstyle and attitudes, then they are less qualified to be giving opinions on it. The key to an MMO is the other players. You and me know this. You can get in with a great community of like minded people in any game. Sure you are going to need to look around alittle. You might need to try a few guilds out. Your entire RPG portion of these games is completely based on WHO you choose to associate with.
"general MMO fans who are looking for a good game just to kill of a few hours with."
Looking at that quote, it sounds like you are saying the game is not able to live up to some sort of expectation. What else would an MMO player be looking for is the question? My personal opinion is LotR really doesn't bring anything to new to the genre and essentually emulates the original EQ formula only in a slightly different package with some snazier flavorings. So its no better or worse in any respect then any other game out there. Remember, this is an RPG so that is entirely up to the player to do or not do. Anyone going into any MMO with the attitude "I'm just gonna kill a few hours" may as well not play because they will miss out because they will not dig into the core of the MMO which is the community. Western designers are so bent on stripping the community aspect out its not funny. If you don't get into the community, you may as well play Obilvion. It will be more fun for a soloer/recluse.
Same goes for a lore Hardliner. If you go into any game and expect it to fit YOUR mode of thinking, you are going to be disappointed EVERY time. The key is finding like minded people and then enjoying the game the way you want. Creating an account and a character is only a fraction of MMO playing. Without community these games are pretty rotten. Would you play any MMO if they were a single player game? Probably not as they would bore you to tears in about an hour.
EDIT
I think I got seriously derailed. Thats what happens before I finish my first cup of coffee. I guess my point to the whole thing is whoever these guys are, its irrelevant what they think. Its no more relevant then what you or I think.
Morthoron quit the game long before beta ever started. He wants a pure sandbox game where everyone sits in a animated chat room and blows virtual smoke rings and quaffs virtual ale while telling riddles and tales. I have been following the game since it's Sierra days and have known him a long while. I knew before he did that he would hate the game. Him and EP are good people but they really need to stick to tabletop games and www.sca.org/ in my opinion As far as Morthoron being a leading community supporter that is extremely debatable.
Well, he was in the beta test, since sometime in October (perhaps even September). And Morthoron for many years practically moderated the roleplaying forum of the LOTRO boards--I'd call that a community leader. In fact, I call anyone a community leader whose name is well known to its members. Your perception of what he wants is not entirely accurate either.
Maybe he was in the beta, darned if I know, nor do I give a damn. If it had been up to him and his group of Silmarillion quoting lore bible thumpers this would have turned out to be the shittiest game ever launched and made Vanguard look like a raging success. If you want to learn Elvish he is the man to go to, if you want to make a game that will sell more than 50 copies then stay clear. I can give you half a dozen other names who wanted a sandbox and stomped of in disgust when they discovered it would be a game not a sandbox. I first registered on the MEO site back whne Sierra was rthe developer and have watched this game go from a sure thing to vaporware and back again half a dozen times since 1998
Again, it is complete speculation that any other version of LOTRO would have turned out to be the 'shittiest game ever.' You and others seem to think that Turbine has produced the only successful iteration possible of the game out of nearly limitless options. In fact what Turbine did is find a design that worked, but does not mean it is the only design that COULD have worked? Certainly not.
As for your need to prove that you've been following this game for years, I don' t see the point. I've been following this game as well, back before the officials. So? I however do not recall your name from the LOTRO boards. Does that mean anything either? No.
If some of you would take the time to read the entire thread that's linked, you'd see that Morthoron's view is a bit different (and much more realistic) than you characterized it to be.
You are officially talking to brick walls. It certainly feels that way, I agree.
Hope you still try open beta and maybe give the game a chance, if you are a fan of Tolkien then I really think you can enjoy it.
I will add this, NO fanatic will ever understand the real meaning behind what ever they follow, because their minds are to dellusioned with what they think to be fact.
First of all, I don't need to give the game a chance. I've been testing since A2, I've pre-ordered the game. I'm quite familiar with it.
Second. If you follow my posting here on this forum, I'm a rather ardent advocate of LOTRO because I believe the game is solid. However, I am not a fanbois of LOTRO. There are problems with the game, many of which Morthoron posted in his review. Sorry, not going to tow the line and be a better supporter of the game. I'm not going to go all googlie-eyed over it. Despite the problems Morthoron points out, I'm still going to play the game because I'm having fun.
Lastly, I'm not sure who you are on the official or beta boards Jackdog--but my name is there on both. I have been following and posting almost every week for years. Electprogeny, Morthoron, and futsie are not advocating a simulation of Middle Earth. Plain and simple. Even if they had that desire, they are far too intelligent to delude themselves that a simulator would be financially viable. Detractors fail to differentiate between lore discussions and simulation. They are not the same thing. They, as well as I, enjoy the lore of Middle Earth immensely. Painting those who enjoy the lore as simulation nuts is a strawman arguement. It's a handy tool when trying to paint all democrats as communists or all republicans as facists, but it is entirely disingenuous.
_____________________________ Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Please don't go putting words in my mouth Torak. When I said I am looking for something to kill a few hours with I meant just that.
There are 2 types of MMORPGs. Sandbox and structured. A few examples of sand box would be UO, the original SWG, and Second Life. Structure would be EQ, DAoC, and WoW. In a sandbox world the Devs make a virtual world with a loose set of rules and a minimal set of tools and tell the player here it is now make your own fun. The structured MMORPG provides more of a amusement park setting with a lot of pre designed quests and story lines.
What most ( if not all) of the posters over on the Arda Post site wanted was a sandbox. I can imagine most of them as the type of people who learn to make armor and go to Society of Creative Anachronism "fairs" where they pretend to be be in King Arthur's court and drink mead and talk in "thees and thous". Nothing wrong with that, I have went to a couple of those myself as a observer.
I have nothing against people like Morthoron and wish them luck in finding a game that will suit them. However they remind me of a friend of mine who will be bachelor till the day he dies. He is always looking for the "perfect girl" and manages to find flaws in every girl that he meets.
As far as some of the other people over at that site I have known one for years online and that has flitted from proposed game to proposed game and manages to have a hissy fit with each one in while it is in beta and stomps off to their next game in development when they realize it will not be exactly like they picture it should be or want it to be. I saw a post over there by that person which more or less stated that "well they screwed this one up too maybe "x" game will be better, I am going over there now". I have 5 bucks they make 10,000 posts on that game's forums and then stomp off a month before release there also. At least hat has been their pattern of behavior for the last 2 MMORPGs that I have watched them follow.
When I said that I was looking for something to "kill a couple of hours with " I meant something that provided me with the entertainment. Not some thing where I had to make my own. As far as the RPG aspects LoTRO has more RPG aspects than any game that I have seen in ages. Pipe weed and smoke rings, alcohol, player generated music, facial expressions in the form of moods, and a ton of /emotes are just a few of the examples. However when it comes down to it the game is more of "amusement park" than a "sandbox". That is why it will sell a ton of copies and people will be playing it for years to come.
To the OP : Please just try the game and make up your own mind.I myself really like it , nice atmosphere and it does not feel to grindy.Hell , I sat in an orchard for 30 minutes blowing smoke rings , looking out over the shire - then went off and did some quests.Its nicer if you are a fan of the books etc but its playable anyway.
Comments
In all fairness hard core Tolkien fans will probably not find this game fun, lets face it the Shire did not have 5000 players running around whacking wolves and spiders 24 and 7 in the books. However fans of the PJ movies and casual to moderate Tolkien fans such as myself will have a ball with it as well as general MMO fans who are looking for a good game just to kill of a few hours with.
I hear what you are saying Jack however this game is a MMORPG (MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE roleplaying game) meaning lots of players. If these "core" tolkien guys don't understand that then its their loss.
Yeah with MMO's you are never going to capture an authentic atmosphere of anything because everyone has there own playstyle and goals in game. Whatcha gonna do? Personally (and its just my opinion, LotR wouldn't make a very good "sandbox" game because the entire world was built around the context of the story. You would end up with another mess like SWG. Actual fans wouldn't like it because it resembled nothing of the "movie world" which it was suppost to be recreating then when they changed it they bastardized the whole thing and on top of it, it never really worked anyway at any point.
If these guys don't even understand what MMO's are in terms of them having large amounts of players of assorted degrees of playstyle and attitudes, then they are less qualified to be giving opinions on it. The key to an MMO is the other players. You and me know this. You can get in with a great community of like minded people in any game. Sure you are going to need to look around alittle. You might need to try a few guilds out. Your entire RPG portion of these games is completely based on WHO you choose to associate with.
"general MMO fans who are looking for a good game just to kill of a few hours with."
Looking at that quote, it sounds like you are saying the game is not able to live up to some sort of expectation. What else would an MMO player be looking for is the question? My personal opinion is LotR really doesn't bring anything to new to the genre and essentually emulates the original EQ formula only in a slightly different package with some snazier flavorings. So its no better or worse in any respect then any other game out there. Remember, this is an RPG so that is entirely up to the player to do or not do. Anyone going into any MMO with the attitude "I'm just gonna kill a few hours" may as well not play because they will miss out because they will not dig into the core of the MMO which is the community. Western designers are so bent on stripping the community aspect out its not funny. If you don't get into the community, you may as well play Obilvion. It will be more fun for a soloer/recluse.
Same goes for a lore Hardliner. If you go into any game and expect it to fit YOUR mode of thinking, you are going to be disappointed EVERY time. The key is finding like minded people and then enjoying the game the way you want. Creating an account and a character is only a fraction of MMO playing. Without community these games are pretty rotten. Would you play any MMO if they were a single player game? Probably not as they would bore you to tears in about an hour.
EDIT
I think I got seriously derailed. Thats what happens before I finish my first cup of coffee. I guess my point to the whole thing is whoever these guys are, its irrelevant what they think. Its no more relevant then what you or I think.
Well, he was in the beta test, since sometime in October (perhaps even September). And Morthoron for many years practically moderated the roleplaying forum of the LOTRO boards--I'd call that a community leader. In fact, I call anyone a community leader whose name is well known to its members. Your perception of what he wants is not entirely accurate either.
Maybe he was in the beta, darned if I know, nor do I give a damn. If it had been up to him and his group of Silmarillion quoting lore bible thumpers this would have turned out to be the shittiest game ever launched and made Vanguard look like a raging success. If you want to learn Elvish he is the man to go to, if you want to make a game that will sell more than 50 copies then stay clear. I can give you half a dozen other names who wanted a sandbox and stomped of in disgust when they discovered it would be a game not a sandbox. I first registered on the MEO site back whne Sierra was rthe developer and have watched this game go from a sure thing to vaporware and back again half a dozen times since 1998
Again, it is complete speculation that any other version of LOTRO would have turned out to be the 'shittiest game ever.' You and others seem to think that Turbine has produced the only successful iteration possible of the game out of nearly limitless options. In fact what Turbine did is find a design that worked, but does not mean it is the only design that COULD have worked? Certainly not.
As for your need to prove that you've been following this game for years, I don' t see the point. I've been following this game as well, back before the officials. So? I however do not recall your name from the LOTRO boards. Does that mean anything either? No.
If some of you would take the time to read the entire thread that's linked, you'd see that Morthoron's view is a bit different (and much more realistic) than you characterized it to be.
You are officially talking to brick walls.Hope you still try open beta and maybe give the game a chance, if you are a fan of Tolkien then I really think you can enjoy it.
I will add this, NO fanatic will ever understand the real meaning behind what ever they follow, because their minds are to dellusioned with what they think to be fact.
First of all, I don't need to give the game a chance. I've been testing since A2, I've pre-ordered the game. I'm quite familiar with it.
Second. If you follow my posting here on this forum, I'm a rather ardent advocate of LOTRO because I believe the game is solid. However, I am not a fanbois of LOTRO. There are problems with the game, many of which Morthoron posted in his review. Sorry, not going to tow the line and be a better supporter of the game. I'm not going to go all googlie-eyed over it. Despite the problems Morthoron points out, I'm still going to play the game because I'm having fun.
Lastly, I'm not sure who you are on the official or beta boards Jackdog--but my name is there on both. I have been following and posting almost every week for years. Electprogeny, Morthoron, and futsie are not advocating a simulation of Middle Earth. Plain and simple. Even if they had that desire, they are far too intelligent to delude themselves that a simulator would be financially viable. Detractors fail to differentiate between lore discussions and simulation. They are not the same thing. They, as well as I, enjoy the lore of Middle Earth immensely. Painting those who enjoy the lore as simulation nuts is a strawman arguement. It's a handy tool when trying to paint all democrats as communists or all republicans as facists, but it is entirely disingenuous.
_____________________________
Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO
Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Find the Truth: http://www.factcheck.org/
Please don't go putting words in my mouth Torak. When I said I am looking for something to kill a few hours with I meant just that.
There are 2 types of MMORPGs. Sandbox and structured. A few examples of sand box would be UO, the original SWG, and Second Life. Structure would be EQ, DAoC, and WoW. In a sandbox world the Devs make a virtual world with a loose set of rules and a minimal set of tools and tell the player here it is now make your own fun. The structured MMORPG provides more of a amusement park setting with a lot of pre designed quests and story lines.
What most ( if not all) of the posters over on the Arda Post site wanted was a sandbox. I can imagine most of them as the type of people who learn to make armor and go to Society of Creative Anachronism "fairs" where they pretend to be be in King Arthur's court and drink mead and talk in "thees and thous". Nothing wrong with that, I have went to a couple of those myself as a observer.
I have nothing against people like Morthoron and wish them luck in finding a game that will suit them. However they remind me of a friend of mine who will be bachelor till the day he dies. He is always looking for the "perfect girl" and manages to find flaws in every girl that he meets.
As far as some of the other people over at that site I have known one for years online and that has flitted from proposed game to proposed game and manages to have a hissy fit with each one in while it is in beta and stomps off to their next game in development when they realize it will not be exactly like they picture it should be or want it to be. I saw a post over there by that person which more or less stated that "well they screwed this one up too maybe "x" game will be better, I am going over there now". I have 5 bucks they make 10,000 posts on that game's forums and then stomp off a month before release there also. At least hat has been their pattern of behavior for the last 2 MMORPGs that I have watched them follow.
When I said that I was looking for something to "kill a couple of hours with " I meant something that provided me with the entertainment. Not some thing where I had to make my own. As far as the RPG aspects LoTRO has more RPG aspects than any game that I have seen in ages. Pipe weed and smoke rings, alcohol, player generated music, facial expressions in the form of moods, and a ton of /emotes are just a few of the examples. However when it comes down to it the game is more of "amusement park" than a "sandbox". That is why it will sell a ton of copies and people will be playing it for years to come.
I miss DAoC
To the OP : Please just try the game and make up your own mind.I myself really like it , nice atmosphere and it does not feel to grindy.Hell , I sat in an orchard for 30 minutes blowing smoke rings , looking out over the shire - then went off and did some quests.Its nicer if you are a fan of the books etc but its playable anyway.
Perhaps someday, someone will make a game like he wants, but hardly anyone would play it.
People like the reviewer are never happy with anything. They just enjoy picking apart everything. I can imagine what he would write about Vanguard.
Oh well, can't make everyone happy.