Lets be honest most people beta test a game to try it out. Thats just one of the many things in MMO's that will never change. I have never met a person that went in to a beta with just the pure intention of finding bugs and helping the devs. Its just a fact of life. The game is new and people want to see what it is all about. They want to give it a shot. If along the way they find bugs and report them thats great. That is the trade off for asking the public to help them. It would be pretty expensive to hire thousands of people to beta your game.
Lets be honest most people beta test a game to try it out. Thats just one of the many things in MMO's that will never change. I have never met a person that went in to a beta with just the pure intention of finding bugs and helping the devs. Its just a fact of life. The game is new and people want to see what it is all about. They want to give it a shot. If along the way they find bugs and report them thats great. That is the trade off for asking the public to help them. It would be pretty expensive to hire thousands of people to beta your game.
Hmmm maybe thats the story we should be telling right there.
Vanguard : testers that were in it for themselves to learn the game and get a head start, didnt care about helping make the game a better world.. and devs that didnt listen when some of the testers tried to report bugs and offer suggestions, canned email responses, and dev lectures rather than dev chats.
VS.
LOTRO : a large number of quality testers that truly care and are dedicated to making a better game, plus devs that regularly interact with the player community, personally respond to emails, and healthy presense and interest in player suggestions in quality dev chats.
"There's something wrong that I just can't put my finger on..."
I see a lot of these comments now, and quite frankly I think it has more to do with the player than with the game. Some of these people I think are just looking for a reason to hate the game but can't find one. All of the standard reasons have been shot down by solid game design, so they resort to "I don't know what it is..." Now the OP claims he really wanted to like the game....maybe so.
Also, this sort of comment is beyond useless quite frankly. The developers can't address an issue if you "don't know what's wrong." Even more silly is this sort of comment in an argument because it derails any possibility for discussion.
Bottom line: If you don't know what's wrong, then it really can't be that major, and probably has everything to do with your personal taste. Because I can tell you everything that is wrong with SWG and Vanguard that has little to do with personal taste.
_____________________________ Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
I'm currently playing Vanguard, and after playing for a few hours I decided to start downloading LOTR since I got an invite forever ago and never used it. I just played for about an hour and it was all I could take unfortunately. I really really wanted to like this game, but I was ready to stop 20 minutes in. I don't know what it was, but it felt odd... I can't really put my finger on it. I didn't like the character animations or the way to game "moved". On the upside this game looks fantastic. I love VG's graphics and this just blows Vanguard away. It also runs great too. I have an e6400@ 3.2Ghz 7900gtx 2gigs ram etc. and I ran it w/o a hitch at the highest settings. I wish I could say the same for Vanguard If I had to sum up both games, in my own opinion... and thats all it is, Vanguard came out unfinished but is much richer. LOTR came out as a slick finished project but seems kind of hollow. I know I only played for an hour... but I'm usually pretty good at getting a feel for a game pretty quickly. Like I said I came in wanting this to be great, but It's just not for me, I hope people enjoy it though. Cheers
I agree that LotR is pretty standard in the game mechanic sense. But what does Vanguard offer that makes it richer? Zero, zip. Vanguard is a more grind intensive version of Lineage 2 except it has no compelling reason to play. The content is standard and dry, there is almost no detailed game lore. The world just "is". No real history, no events, no nothing, just a giant, static, empty world. Players have no world impact at all.
I also believe Vanguard could have been the game everyone thought it was going to be. Depth, complexity and all that but the Dev's totally and completely 1000% FUBARed the game. Now , in addition to it flat out missing features they are currently advertising, (misrepresenting their product) they are thinking of moving away from the original ideas anyway. Example, the caravan system. Where are they? Not in game. Its on the website as a feature. Brad himself is now talking about maybe adding teleporting. Backsliding. What happened to all that rhetoric about the travel being part of the adventure???? They made the game world to large and to spread out and the populations are to low to meet with the original "vision". If you look through my post history I said this might happen way back in Aug. You know what? Everyone ignored and blew off my comments.
Hollow is a subjective thing. Whats "hollow" to you isn't to someone else. What is "hollow"? The Vanguard dev team was writting checks their talent obvisously could not cash. Sorry if I sound like I'm jumping on the "fanboi" wagon because I also have serious doubts that Turbine will be able to pull this game off myself. I feel it in my bones....they are going to snatch a defeat from the jaws for victory....they have in every other game they tried to run.
An MMO, any MMO (that works) is really what you make of it. If you WANT it to be "inferior" or "hollow", then it will not disappoint. Trust me on that. MMOs are designed for LOTS of different people who all have LOTs of different opinions about what an MMO "should" be. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, has different expectations and desires. Look through any forum. People can not even clearly define what an MMO SHOULD be.
Anyway, enough of my rambling, sounds like you don't like it. Honestly, sounds like you didn't want to like it. /shrug.
Its disappointing what Sigil did, whats done is done and there is no going back for them. Another casaulty to chalk up to poor game designers. Add them to the list og game bombs --- Horizons, Dark and Light, Irith online, The Matrix, Roma Victor, DDO, AC2, Archlord just to name a few.
I am playing Vanguard a few weeks and LOTRO beta 10 days now. All I can say to the OP, you really should not judge any game after a few hours. Sometimes, a game opens up much better (or worse). You should at least play a game 2 weeks to really see what it's like. Patience. ^^
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I personally don't understand ppl who can judge a game by playing for 20 minutes, especially this type of game. It takes me at least a few sessions to really know if i am going to like it.
I personally don't understand ppl who can judge a game by playing for 20 minutes, especially this type of game. It takes me at least a few sessions to really know if i am going to like it.
I don't understand people who try something out for free, decide they don't like it, and THEN they come to forums and announce that they didn't like it. what's the point?
If someone wants to discourage people from something (eg. preordering a game that is faulty or poor in quality etc), he/she should at least provide valid points, no? Otherwise it's just trolling... or am I wrong?
Having it played for less than a couple of days just underlines the lack of value and sense of such posts.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
I personally don't understand ppl who can judge a game by playing for 20 minutes, especially this type of game. It takes me at least a few sessions to really know if i am going to like it.
I can only guess...like myself, he is disappointed that Vanguard turned out to be the winner of the "2007 most FUBAR game award". He felt obligated to take a look at the hype of the competition but already knew he wasn't going to give it a chance but just wanted the ability to say he at least tried it. He really wants Vanguard to be something its not, a working quality game, but will probably hang onto it anyway despite the fact he is paying for an unfinished game that is missing features he is paying for.
So there, now he has the legit ability to go talk trash because he technically "tried it". Its a typical pattern of a jaded type gamer who focuses to hard on a single game rather then look at the genre as a whole. There are a few of them who posted some hollow things here on this LotR site then go and slam it over on the Vanguard threads. Its a wierd jealousy thing which is strange since the players have no real stake in the game other then having to pay a fee to use it.
Vanguard gave MMO industry a black eye and kick in the b*lls. Western devs keep this sh*t up and they are going to put western made MMO's clear out of business.
DO NOT support poorly designed and launched games. They are just like any other product. Would you buy, pay for and brag about a half finished car you bought for full price and built a garage for? Then the dealer promised to finish it up for you within the next 6 months???? But you still had to make the full payment???? I would think not. MMO players need to start being more objective when it comes to evaluating their products. Crap like "it felt hollow" means NOTHING. Things like "it doesn't work as advertised" or "is missing advertised features" or any other number of things you can list about Vanguard does.
Don't take my word for it, check out 24 average reviews of this turd. (6.9)
So there, now he has the legit ability to go talk trash because he technically "tried it". Its a typical pattern of a jaded type gamer who focuses to hard on a single game rather then look at the genre as a whole. There are a few of them who posted some hollow things here on this LotR site then go and slam it over on the Vanguard threads. Its a wierd jealousy thing which is strange since the players have no real stake in the game other then having to pay a fee to use it.
You can call it jealousy, but I think "self-justification" is a better term - especially if you consider the lost cash to failed games (like VG, some say...)
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
. They are just like any other product. Would you buy, pay for and brag about a half finished car you bought for full price and built a garage for? Then the dealer promised to finish it up for you within the next 6 months???? But you still had to make the full payment???? I would think not. MMO players need to start being more objective when it comes to evaluating their products. Crap like "it felt hollow" means NOTHING. Things like "it doesn't work as advertised" or "is missing advertised features" or any other number of things you can list about Vanguard does.
There are not just online games like that, my friend... I am one of the unlucky owners of Gothic 3, the hands-down winner of the "2006 unfinished released game of the year" - released in October 2006, still VERY far from finished in March 2007....
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
. They are just like any other product. Would you buy, pay for and brag about a half finished car you bought for full price and built a garage for? Then the dealer promised to finish it up for you within the next 6 months???? But you still had to make the full payment???? I would think not. MMO players need to start being more objective when it comes to evaluating their products. Crap like "it felt hollow" means NOTHING. Things like "it doesn't work as advertised" or "is missing advertised features" or any other number of things you can list about Vanguard does.
There are not just online games like that, my friend... I am one of the unlucky owners of Gothic 3, the hands-down winner of the "2006 unfinished released game of the year" - released in October 2006, still VERY far from finished in March 2007....
DB
Oh I agree....NWN2 had a bad start also. The list of poorly launch video games is longer then we will ever know I'm sure. I was just keeping it within the scope of the site. MMO's.
So there, now he has the legit ability to go talk trash because he technically "tried it". Its a typical pattern of a jaded type gamer who focuses to hard on a single game rather then look at the genre as a whole. There are a few of them who posted some hollow things here on this LotR site then go and slam it over on the Vanguard threads. Its a wierd jealousy thing which is strange since the players have no real stake in the game other then having to pay a fee to use it.
You can call it jealousy, but I think "self-justification" is a better term - especially if you consider the lost cash to failed games (like VG, some say...)
DB
True. Not only did many of these Vanguard customers buy the game and start shelling out fees ($50 + $15) many of them ran out and upgraded everything from RAM, Graphics cards to whole PC's in good faith that this would help the situation. Which, of course, it didn't. Thats why I push the Better Business Bureau, the game does not work nor has the features as advertised.
Why customers take the defence of the company that is literally ripping them off is completely beyond my scope of understanding. However I will say, I'm not the smartest bear to walk in the woods, maybe there is a good reason.
. They are just like any other product. Would you buy, pay for and brag about a half finished car you bought for full price and built a garage for? Then the dealer promised to finish it up for you within the next 6 months???? But you still had to make the full payment???? I would think not. MMO players need to start being more objective when it comes to evaluating their products. Crap like "it felt hollow" means NOTHING. Things like "it doesn't work as advertised" or "is missing advertised features" or any other number of things you can list about Vanguard does.
There are not just online games like that, my friend... I am one of the unlucky owners of Gothic 3, the hands-down winner of the "2006 unfinished released game of the year" - released in October 2006, still VERY far from finished in March 2007....
DB
Oh I agree....NWN2 had a bad start also. The list of poorly launch video games is longer then we will ever know I'm sure. I was just keeping it within the scope of the site. MMO's.
I'm able to forgive NWN2 and G3 much easier, besides NWN2 was very enjoyable for me and as for G3, what can I say, I'm an fanboi.
What I was unable to forgive, nor will I, is Bethesda with their kiddie Oblivion, which I was unable to enjoy even with 500+MB's worth of add-ons , all set to correct the dumbing down the game got. Apparently EVERY game nowdays has to be suitable for EVERYONE and hell yes, it gets me mad...
Oh I agree....NWN2 had a bad start also. The list of poorly launch video games is longer then we will ever know I'm sure. I was just keeping it within the scope of the site. MMO's.
I'm able to forgive NWN2 and G3 much easier, besides NWN2 was very enjoyable for me and as for G3, what can I say, I'm an fanboi.
What I was unable to forgive, nor will I, is Bethesda with their kiddie Oblivion, which I was unable to enjoy even with 500+MB's worth of add-ons , all set to correct the dumbing down the game got. Apparently EVERY game nowdays has to be suitable for EVERYONE and hell yes, it gets me mad...
What you are talking about with Oblivion isn't the same thing. Its one thing not to like an aspect, its another to sell a game that flat out doesn't work right and not have all the features advertised like Vanguard.
Comments
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
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Lets be honest most people beta test a game to try it out. Thats just one of the many things in MMO's that will never change. I have never met a person that went in to a beta with just the pure intention of finding bugs and helping the devs. Its just a fact of life. The game is new and people want to see what it is all about. They want to give it a shot. If along the way they find bugs and report them thats great. That is the trade off for asking the public to help them. It would be pretty expensive to hire thousands of people to beta your game.
Hmmm maybe thats the story we should be telling right there.
Vanguard : testers that were in it for themselves to learn the game and get a head start, didnt care about helping make the game a better world.. and devs that didnt listen when some of the testers tried to report bugs and offer suggestions, canned email responses, and dev lectures rather than dev chats.
VS.
LOTRO : a large number of quality testers that truly care and are dedicated to making a better game, plus devs that regularly interact with the player community, personally respond to emails, and healthy presense and interest in player suggestions in quality dev chats.
I see a lot of this comment:
"There's something wrong that I just can't put my finger on..."
I see a lot of these comments now, and quite frankly I think it has more to do with the player than with the game. Some of these people I think are just looking for a reason to hate the game but can't find one. All of the standard reasons have been shot down by solid game design, so they resort to "I don't know what it is..." Now the OP claims he really wanted to like the game....maybe so.
Also, this sort of comment is beyond useless quite frankly. The developers can't address an issue if you "don't know what's wrong." Even more silly is this sort of comment in an argument because it derails any possibility for discussion.
Bottom line: If you don't know what's wrong, then it really can't be that major, and probably has everything to do with your personal taste. Because I can tell you everything that is wrong with SWG and Vanguard that has little to do with personal taste.
_____________________________
Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO
Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Find the Truth: http://www.factcheck.org/
I agree that LotR is pretty standard in the game mechanic sense. But what does Vanguard offer that makes it richer? Zero, zip. Vanguard is a more grind intensive version of Lineage 2 except it has no compelling reason to play. The content is standard and dry, there is almost no detailed game lore. The world just "is". No real history, no events, no nothing, just a giant, static, empty world. Players have no world impact at all.
I also believe Vanguard could have been the game everyone thought it was going to be. Depth, complexity and all that but the Dev's totally and completely 1000% FUBARed the game. Now , in addition to it flat out missing features they are currently advertising, (misrepresenting their product) they are thinking of moving away from the original ideas anyway. Example, the caravan system. Where are they? Not in game. Its on the website as a feature. Brad himself is now talking about maybe adding teleporting. Backsliding. What happened to all that rhetoric about the travel being part of the adventure???? They made the game world to large and to spread out and the populations are to low to meet with the original "vision". If you look through my post history I said this might happen way back in Aug. You know what? Everyone ignored and blew off my comments.
Hollow is a subjective thing. Whats "hollow" to you isn't to someone else. What is "hollow"? The Vanguard dev team was writting checks their talent obvisously could not cash. Sorry if I sound like I'm jumping on the "fanboi" wagon because I also have serious doubts that Turbine will be able to pull this game off myself. I feel it in my bones....they are going to snatch a defeat from the jaws for victory....they have in every other game they tried to run.
An MMO, any MMO (that works) is really what you make of it. If you WANT it to be "inferior" or "hollow", then it will not disappoint. Trust me on that. MMOs are designed for LOTS of different people who all have LOTs of different opinions about what an MMO "should" be. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, has different expectations and desires. Look through any forum. People can not even clearly define what an MMO SHOULD be.
Anyway, enough of my rambling, sounds like you don't like it. Honestly, sounds like you didn't want to like it. /shrug.
Its disappointing what Sigil did, whats done is done and there is no going back for them. Another casaulty to chalk up to poor game designers. Add them to the list og game bombs --- Horizons, Dark and Light, Irith online, The Matrix, Roma Victor, DDO, AC2, Archlord just to name a few.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
WOW,eq2,Vanguard,WAR,LOTRO,AOC,Rift Aion, SWTOR, TERA.
Currently playing GW2.
I don't understand people who try something out for free, decide they don't like it, and THEN they come to forums and announce that they didn't like it.
what's the point?
If someone wants to discourage people from something (eg. preordering a game that is faulty or poor in quality etc), he/she should at least provide valid points, no? Otherwise it's just trolling... or am I wrong?
Having it played for less than a couple of days just underlines the lack of value and sense of such posts.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
I can only guess...like myself, he is disappointed that Vanguard turned out to be the winner of the "2007 most FUBAR game award". He felt obligated to take a look at the hype of the competition but already knew he wasn't going to give it a chance but just wanted the ability to say he at least tried it. He really wants Vanguard to be something its not, a working quality game, but will probably hang onto it anyway despite the fact he is paying for an unfinished game that is missing features he is paying for.
So there, now he has the legit ability to go talk trash because he technically "tried it". Its a typical pattern of a jaded type gamer who focuses to hard on a single game rather then look at the genre as a whole. There are a few of them who posted some hollow things here on this LotR site then go and slam it over on the Vanguard threads. Its a wierd jealousy thing which is strange since the players have no real stake in the game other then having to pay a fee to use it.
Vanguard gave MMO industry a black eye and kick in the b*lls. Western devs keep this sh*t up and they are going to put western made MMO's clear out of business.
DO NOT support poorly designed and launched games. They are just like any other product. Would you buy, pay for and brag about a half finished car you bought for full price and built a garage for? Then the dealer promised to finish it up for you within the next 6 months???? But you still had to make the full payment???? I would think not. MMO players need to start being more objective when it comes to evaluating their products. Crap like "it felt hollow" means NOTHING. Things like "it doesn't work as advertised" or "is missing advertised features" or any other number of things you can list about Vanguard does.
Don't take my word for it, check out 24 average reviews of this turd. (6.9)
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/vanguard/review.html?mode=web&om_act=convert&om_clk=stats
Then if you actually paid for this game and feel "ripped off" go here
https://odr.bbb.org/odrweb/public/GetStarted.aspx
Stop rolling over and taking it in the arse for sh*tty game releases.
You can call it jealousy, but I think "self-justification" is a better term - especially if you consider the lost cash to failed games (like VG, some say...)
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
There are not just online games like that, my friend... I am one of the unlucky owners of Gothic 3, the hands-down winner of the "2006 unfinished released game of the year" - released in October 2006, still VERY far from finished in March 2007....
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
There are not just online games like that, my friend... I am one of the unlucky owners of Gothic 3, the hands-down winner of the "2006 unfinished released game of the year" - released in October 2006, still VERY far from finished in March 2007....
DB
Oh I agree....NWN2 had a bad start also. The list of poorly launch video games is longer then we will ever know I'm sure. I was just keeping it within the scope of the site. MMO's.
You can call it jealousy, but I think "self-justification" is a better term - especially if you consider the lost cash to failed games (like VG, some say...)
DB
True. Not only did many of these Vanguard customers buy the game and start shelling out fees ($50 + $15) many of them ran out and upgraded everything from RAM, Graphics cards to whole PC's in good faith that this would help the situation. Which, of course, it didn't. Thats why I push the Better Business Bureau, the game does not work nor has the features as advertised.
Why customers take the defence of the company that is literally ripping them off is completely beyond my scope of understanding. However I will say, I'm not the smartest bear to walk in the woods, maybe there is a good reason.
There are not just online games like that, my friend... I am one of the unlucky owners of Gothic 3, the hands-down winner of the "2006 unfinished released game of the year" - released in October 2006, still VERY far from finished in March 2007....
DB
Oh I agree....NWN2 had a bad start also. The list of poorly launch video games is longer then we will ever know I'm sure. I was just keeping it within the scope of the site. MMO's.
I'm able to forgive NWN2 and G3 much easier, besides NWN2 was very enjoyable for me and as for G3, what can I say, I'm an fanboi.
What I was unable to forgive, nor will I, is Bethesda with their kiddie Oblivion, which I was unable to enjoy even with 500+MB's worth of add-ons , all set to correct the dumbing down the game got. Apparently EVERY game nowdays has to be suitable for EVERYONE and hell yes, it gets me mad...
I'm able to forgive NWN2 and G3 much easier, besides NWN2 was very enjoyable for me and as for G3, what can I say, I'm an fanboi.
What I was unable to forgive, nor will I, is Bethesda with their kiddie Oblivion, which I was unable to enjoy even with 500+MB's worth of add-ons , all set to correct the dumbing down the game got. Apparently EVERY game nowdays has to be suitable for EVERYONE and hell yes, it gets me mad...
What you are talking about with Oblivion isn't the same thing. Its one thing not to like an aspect, its another to sell a game that flat out doesn't work right and not have all the features advertised like Vanguard.