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No instancing in Vanguard, is it a problem?
Klave
Member Posts: 46
Im new to mmo's and my wife has stolen our laptop (to play WOW) so im reading up till i can play when i buy another in a month or two.
I was hoping to get vanguard, but the lack of instancing bothers me. Is having to wait in line to take you turn to kill a named or complete a quest a problem? If you enter a dungeon and there are groups in front of you does it cause conflicts and huge time-sinks? (Ive played guild wars a little but thats barely a MMO due to the instancing and EVE has mission instancing WOW of course) So i understand how its used.
Would just like to know if the fact that vanguard has no instancing is going to get to me as it would be the first non-instanced game i would have played?
Comments
To be honest i have never been a huge fan of instance when it comes to doing dungeons
and to be honest at teh moment apart from huge dungeons (Zihurr Mound, Khegors End springs to mind) i very rarely get bothered by other groups
As most of the game base are experienced MMO players there is a fundamental understanding between groups and if 2 turn up in same location the leaders generally tend to ask if they are waiting for such and such named mob, thankfully spawn rates are fast enough that once its been killed you arent waiting for hours
BUT
you do still get the fly by idiots like i had in sanctuary how roll in grab you mob then roll out without so much as a word
they generally tend to get 'You a$$' and various expletives hurled after tehm
Also thankfully apart from a few idiots no-one does the Train to Hell across groups deep in dungeons, (normally because they cant make it that far!)
as each patch comes out new areas and mobs are added, spawns are tweeked and the world is so huge i dont find it a problem at all
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ab/Norsefire-logo.png
Issue with no instancing IMHO.
- Players running around agro'ing the place and wiping your group.
- If your on a FFA server some jerk could come along and gank your healer during a boss fight.
- The boss fights will be simple, no room for scripted or complex fights because of the nature of the encounter.
- 1 group camping a boss over and over and maybe ganking your group.
- Mobs respwning on your party becuase a group cleared them a few min before.
- If you die, you have to run naked into the dungeon, passed mobs that respawned that will kill you again and again and again.
Sigil have gone backwards on many if its so called key features, no teleportation, slow leveling etc that im sure they will add instancing soon, but for me a game with on instances makes any boss fight a ZZZzzzz feast, dont expect fancy dungeons and boss fights like you find WoW, the encounters you'll find are the same you'll find in EQ1 (an 8 year old game).IMHO
I could not disagree more !
To me....instancing IS the simple and easy way out for a mmorpg. You have it backwards.
Maintaining and managing a persistant world is developers nightmare. It takes much more time to develope, maintain, and hardware to have a persistant world with no instancing.
To me....instancing is bad. It reminds me that I am playing a video game...which...in an environment designed to draw one into it's world....is bad. If I wanted to just play a video game many xbox and ps3 games would do much better.
Instancing is more co-op than mmorpg. Competition with massive amounts of other players is PART of the game.
You're not suppose to die. That's the whole point of the death penalty....to add some meaning to a battle..make you sit up and really pay attention to whats going on cause dying sucks. You do not have to run all the back to your corpse if you do die...however. You can summon your gear back at the alter and suffer a xp penalty.
The only problem I've encountered in Vanguard is people trying to " help" ..too much at times. Since there is not mob stealing or loot stealing in game players will sometimes jump in on a battle to " help" you with said mob...without checking to see if you actualy "need" the help. Thats a problem I can live with though. You still get yur xp and loot...it's just annoying at times.
I think this poster got his butt kicked alot in game.
how is no instancing a step backwards? if you only say this cuz of the way mmo's are now and they are mostly instanced now a days, whose says those aren't a step backwards? as one poster said already instancing is the easy way out on creating a game world. No instancing is actually not a step backwards but a step back in the right direction.
No instancing is a good thing. There are other mechanics to prevent killstealing and camping which don't ruin immersion like instancing does. Instancing is the lazy developers way of not having to be creative and design smartly.
1. I hate games that don't realistically add agro. If someone trains a mob, by accident or on purpose, it logically should agro other players it encounters based on it's hate list, not just ignore them because of a mechanic which limits it's agro to one player/group only and warps it back to a static spawn. It may suck if you are attacked and lose experience if you die, but it is realistic and creates excitement and danger. My experiences of trains in old school EQ1 are some of the most memorable and enjoyable.
2. If you are a FFA PvPer, you expect and desire PvP action anytime and anywhere, that's why you choose such a server or game.
3. Boss mob encounters in an instance lack tactics and complexity. An instance allows you to repeat the encounter over and over without any variation which simplifies it. A boss encounter in an open world can vary based on respawns and a changing environment.
4. Camping can be addressed with randomization of spawns, random loot tables assigned to multiple bosses and enough variety of bosses and quality drops/crafted items/quest rewards, but competition for limited resources is a good thing for the economy of a MMOG and preserves the value of quality items. Ganking is only allowed in a PvP environment, again something you choose, and is easily prevented by a limited level/skill restriction.
5. Respawning adds a level of excitement and planning and complexity, again something not found in a sterile simple instance.
6. If you venture in a place that you need a group to survive, then you should be able to get a group to help with corpse recovery. You can usuallly use some sort of invisibilty spell or potion or stealth to recover corpse in dangerous spots. Many games even spawn corpses at dungeon entrances though I prefer the more realistic nature of corpse retrieval at your original death spot.
I am not a Vanguard fan because of it's raid centric design and forced grouping philosophy, but everyone knew the game was supposed to be designed for hardcore gamers. Why are people buying the game and whining about lengthy travel times, non instancing, experience loss, slow leveling etc.? Go play LOTRO if you want an easy WoW like experience.
I could not disagree more !
To me....instancing IS the simple and easy way out for a mmorpg. You have it backwards.
Maintaining and managing a persistant world is developers nightmare. It takes much more time to develope, maintain, and hardware to have a persistant world with no instancing.
To me....instancing is bad. It reminds me that I am playing a video game...which...in an environment designed to draw one into it's world....is bad. If I wanted to just play a video game many xbox and ps3 games would do much better.
Instancing is more co-op than mmorpg. Competition with massive amounts of other players is PART of the game.
You're not suppose to die. That's the whole point of the death penalty....to add some meaning to a battle..make you sit up and really pay attention to whats going on cause dying sucks. You do not have to run all the back to your corpse if you do die...however. You can summon your gear back at the alter and suffer a xp penalty.
The only problem I've encountered in Vanguard is people trying to " help" ..too much at times. Since there is not mob stealing or loot stealing in game players will sometimes jump in on a battle to " help" you with said mob...without checking to see if you actualy "need" the help. Thats a problem I can live with though. You still get yur xp and loot...it's just annoying at times.
I think this poster got his butt kicked alot in game.
Well we both have a point of view, but you cant compare a WoW dungeon to a VG dungeon, I just find WoW dungeons 10x more fun, interactive and challenging than VG dungeons. Take Zul'gurub (best dungeon in WoW), no way will you find a dungeon as fun/complex in VG.I guess the OP should get a 10 day pass and see for him self, but my money is on WoW (and BTW I dont play WoW any more.. LOTRO FTW).
I could not disagree more !
To me....instancing IS the simple and easy way out for a mmorpg. You have it backwards.
Maintaining and managing a persistant world is developers nightmare. It takes much more time to develope, maintain, and hardware to have a persistant world with no instancing.
To me....instancing is bad. It reminds me that I am playing a video game...which...in an environment designed to draw one into it's world....is bad. If I wanted to just play a video game many xbox and ps3 games would do much better.
Instancing is more co-op than mmorpg. Competition with massive amounts of other players is PART of the game.
You're not suppose to die. That's the whole point of the death penalty....to add some meaning to a battle..make you sit up and really pay attention to whats going on cause dying sucks. You do not have to run all the back to your corpse if you do die...however. You can summon your gear back at the alter and suffer a xp penalty.
The only problem I've encountered in Vanguard is people trying to " help" ..too much at times. Since there is not mob stealing or loot stealing in game players will sometimes jump in on a battle to " help" you with said mob...without checking to see if you actualy "need" the help. Thats a problem I can live with though. You still get yur xp and loot...it's just annoying at times.
I think this poster got his butt kicked alot in game.
Well we both have a point of view, but you cant compare a WoW dungeon to a VG dungeon, I just find WoW dungeons 10x more fun, interactive and challenging than VG dungeons. Take Zul'gurub (best dungeon in WoW), no way will you find a dungeon as fun/complex in VG.I guess the OP should get a 10 day pass and see for him self, but my money is on WoW (and BTW I dont play WoW any more.. LOTRO FTW).
I found wow dungeons the total opposite, i thought they were to noninteractive and easy and i see vg dungeons more immersive and challenging but of course that is just my opinion.
If I had the time I would still be playing EQ1. I loved the challenge of leveling and raiding. I loved orginizing a raid of 30-50 people. If I had time I would probably play Vangaurd. But since I don't. I play LoTR's:-)
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
I've played mmorpgs for a while and WoW is still the best game I've played in total, even tho I got bored with it along time ago.
But what do you mean with Zul'Gurub is the "best" dungeon? It's your favourite? It's FAR from the hardest, but you just like ZG I guess? I like it too ^^
Death to SOE.
That was actually not too bad for me as I would know which Instances I could run if I had 1 hour, 2 hours, 3 hours, and so on.
But it was not harder. It was 100% predictable.
In Vanguard this is not the case, with monsters following other parties, you don't know where you might meet monsters, with other players in the area, you might get to a room that's empty at first and then suddently respawning on you. And if you're on a PvP server (your own choice) then you might even get killed by other players. I play on Frengrot (Team PvP) so I'm not killed by members of my own Realm.
The beauty of this is also that a dungeon is not predictable, at one time you could complete it in 20 minutes, at another time you could still be fighting and dying 2 hours later.
Another thing that I like about Vanguard is that you can do the dungeons in any group size you want. There is no overlying limit or level requirement or anything artificial like that. You enter, you face the consequences.
wow may be the best you've played, but it's not the best out there. Yes i know there may be 8.5 million subs that say differently, but sub numbers do not make a game the best ever. the best financial game ever, yes i'll give that but as far as gameplay it's a no, but of course some like that simple play also. In the end it all comes down to personal preference. While i found WoW to be a good game when i played it, but personally in my opinion even though i don't play anymore is that Eve-Online is the best mmo out there. It's a true sandbox mmo, Completely different character advancement system then most other mmo's, PvP is also another good aspect of it.
When eve upgrades their graphics to dx10 later this year, i will probably end up going back.
Simple fact of the matter is that people who like to interact with the community even while raiding will have no trouble with non-instanced dungeons. The ones that like to interact while showing off their purples in Ironforge will probably not since they're only used to staring at health bars or looking for 5 sunders while they raid and 'can't be bothered' with competing with other people because you're not first in line for a boss.
There's obviously potential for arguments, problems, ganking(lol) and many other things but that's life. Interact with your community not just the 24 people in your raid group.
As far as the ZG comment from WoW, yes it was a fun place however your statement that says 'there will never be a dungeon like this in VG' is a bit pre-mature and short sighted. ZG was put in far after release and it was a lvl 60(max level) dungeon. I'm willing to bet that you aren't level 50 yet and haven't seen a great majority of the world. With the devs adding new content nearly every patch(see NT for example) we haven't yet seen even 25% of what VG should've been like at release. Diplomacy will in fact influence adventuring through Ring events, guild halls, player cities, the list goes on and on.
The thing that attracts me the most to Vanguard is the concept (vision) behind it. The vastness of the world, the spheres and the supposed (perceived) hard/er -core nature of the game.
Im just concerned that the lack of instancing (which would come under hard-core i suppose) would eventually push me away. The points made are interesting, maybe im not hard-core enough yet.
I could not disagree more !
To me....instancing IS the simple and easy way out for a mmorpg. You have it backwards.
Maintaining and managing a persistant world is developers nightmare. It takes much more time to develope, maintain, and hardware to have a persistant world with no instancing.
To me....instancing is bad. It reminds me that I am playing a video game...which...in an environment designed to draw one into it's world....is bad. If I wanted to just play a video game many xbox and ps3 games would do much better.
Instancing is more co-op than mmorpg. Competition with massive amounts of other players is PART of the game.
You're not suppose to die. That's the whole point of the death penalty....to add some meaning to a battle..make you sit up and really pay attention to whats going on cause dying sucks. You do not have to run all the back to your corpse if you do die...however. You can summon your gear back at the alter and suffer a xp penalty.
The only problem I've encountered in Vanguard is people trying to " help" ..too much at times. Since there is not mob stealing or loot stealing in game players will sometimes jump in on a battle to " help" you with said mob...without checking to see if you actualy "need" the help. Thats a problem I can live with though. You still get yur xp and loot...it's just annoying at times.
I think this poster got his butt kicked alot in game.
Well we both have a point of view, but you cant compare a WoW dungeon to a VG dungeon, I just find WoW dungeons 10x more fun, interactive and challenging than VG dungeons. Take Zul'gurub (best dungeon in WoW), no way will you find a dungeon as fun/complex in VG.I guess the OP should get a 10 day pass and see for him self, but my money is on WoW (and BTW I dont play WoW any more.. LOTRO FTW).
I found wow dungeons the total opposite, i thought they were to noninteractive and easy and i see vg dungeons more immersive and challenging but of course that is just my opinion.
I'd love to hear why you believed WoW's dungeons were non-interactive and VG dungeons were more immersive and challenging. Is this defining challenge with competing for overcamped content and immersive with being among the people you're competing with? That isn't much a game mechanic, merely over population. Nothing akin to even WoW's Onyxia encounter which is just a small demonstration of environment and AI interactivity (lava spewed from cracks, egg pits, different phases, etc.)I understand that some people like that old style of playing, if for no other reason than nostalgic value. But what you're describing is competition for content and the annoyances that go along with it; hardly anything that was coded in, just an incident.
That said, I agree completely with cupertino. Resurgence of old first-generation problems like semi-circle camping spawn points, trains and overall tug-o-war of content aside; instancing offered tailor fitted encounters that could employ scripted encounters utilizing as much space as required.
Vanguard was supposed to use AES to erase all of the cons of no instancing, while preserving the pros of seamlessness. Obviously that didn't make it, so it's all merely a step-backwards with the additional downfall of being a quest-driven game which incites even more quest target camping.
I remember reading some pretty good stories about AES from as early as Beta 2 though, so I believe somewhere Sigil has a lot of AES ready. It just needs to mature into a feature that permeates the game from top to bottom just as instancing does in other games.
So it's not like Vanguard fosters these problems some of you see as features, it's just one more thing they're behind on.
So bottom line, no instancing is a problem in any game is a problem , of course you can go to the other extreme and have too much instancing Guild Wars and D&D Online Spring to mind.
No instancing in the dungeons also blows the immersion for me. Imagine, you've finally tracked the vile necromancer to his lair. You've broken the magical seals, fought your way through his minions, and finally breached his innert sanctum. You enter, prepared to meet him face-to-face...
But there are ten other people there. One of them tells you, "Sorry, we're next, then these guys are next after us. You have to wait at least an hour." By the time I've watched Mister Evil Overlord get killed a few times, it loses its impact. All the drama and immersion are gone.
I’m on the fence, instances made the game easier. Once you finished you could just go through it again, great for XP and loot mining. To the ganking point, there is a lot of that in WoW. People waiting out side the instance waiting for groups to try to enter. Don’t tell me it doesn’t happen.
In VSoH I have found other groups to be helpful. If my group became over whelmed its nice to get some unexpected help. It’s also nice to have a rez if the group gets whipped. Right now I’m done with instances, I hated getting into a pug and only making it part way through only to have someone leave. It’s nice to pick up wanders inside the dungeon to refill the spots.
Massively Multiplayer Online = little/no instancing.
Mainly Singleplayer Online = mainly/all instanced.
All things bring equal I do not really mind either, but they are not.
With instanced dungeons there is so much more room for developers to create a really a kickass experience.
More scripted events and interaction, a quest line or storyline that is yours only and that you need to complete with your own resources only.
I played eq2 for a long time and I have yet to see anything compare to it in terms of fun dungeons and instances.
VG with its huge dungeons with a total lack of storyline does nothing for me, oh they are pretty and intricate and yes, huge, but it is not what I am looking for in terms of adventuring.
And VG in its current state does not benefit from the combinatíon of deep dungeons, corpse runs, and very unreliable servers and clients.
Add them all together and you have a system that 9 times out of 10 your suffering is forced upon you by no faulth of your own.
I think this is by far the biggest issue VG has about now, death penalty is good, it should mean something when you die but doing so due to bugs, krashes and other players over and over is just frustration and a total mood killer.
My time for entertainment and fun is just to valuable to leave in the hands of others and the reiliability of hardware/software to this degree.
Loosing a ton of time and or XP due to a krashing chunk, krashing group member or indeed some other player who krashes and just runs in one direction taking the whole place with them is NOT part of the "VG vision" I hope.
Bad or evil players allthough they piss me of I do not really mind them, they are part of the game but when it is involuntary and unavoidable on all parts it is just bad.
EQ2 or AO has a very good mix of instances and none instances I say, at least they give you a choice, they have both and choice will ALWAYS win over a system with none.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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it's a matter of taste and play style. I prefer instanced. I feel that non-instanced it too easy mode for the players in terms of getting loot.
Boss mob too tough? Bring more friends! Well if you bring more friends, the mobs easier, the loot should scale downwards towards vendor trash. But zergers wouldn't like that as it breaks their immersion.
What about scaling the mob? Sure, but continue to scale down the loot. Zerging should be a benefit.
So..You are not reminded that you are playing a video game when another group comes along and asks you if you are here for this specific boss, and if they are then you have to stand in "line" and wait for it to RESPAWN ?
C'on..The whole thing with respawn is as unrealistic as it gets, with instacing atleast you get the feel of winning, actually winning..In a non instanced game all things remain the same at all times..after you killed the boss the dungeon isnt cleared and all teh enemies is back again..
What it does bring is a more hectic game play, but it sure do tell me it's a video game..
/thark