Skill and MMO's dont really go hand in hand. Skill is more or less reserved for fps and rts...mmo's are like chess...that you have to play thousands of times over and over doing the exact same game to 'win'
Never heard so much crap. MMOs just require different skills to FPSs, and FPSs require different skills to RTSs, etc, etc.
If there was no skill in MMOs, you wouldnt get good tanks and bad tanks and every raid would result in success, there would be no need for PvP rankings as everyone would be equal.
For example, PvP in EVE is fairly skillful, there are twitch elements to the small scale fights, you need to know how to pick your fights and it helps to know what your enemy is most likely using on their chosen ship.
MMORPG’s require a lot of long term strategic thinking, a lot of teamwork and a decent amount of tactical and management skill. These are actually higher on the totem pole then the muscle memory clicky skills most people think of when they say they want a game that “requires skill”.
The whole idea behind any RPG is that your character possesses the low level skills like swinging a sword freeing you up for the higher level strategic and tactical decisions. If it doesn’t operate this way *it isn’t an RPG*.
I get the sense that what the OP is really looking for isn’t an MMORPG but a FPS in a persistent world. The only game of this that comes to mind is Planetside.
He could simply be looking for a game that isn’t item centric, but I kind of doubt it. Basing a game around the acquisition of items works well for PvE games but not so well in PvP games. For PvP you generally need items to be generic and fairly easy to replace EVE and UO would fit this model, but they are still RPG’s at heart so your twitch skill doesn’t play a big role.
The OP says they've played Guild Wars, then says they'll accept a game with "some grind", finally mentioning that they're looking forward to Darkfall. Both GW and Darkfall (Darkfall as promised, anyway) are PvP-centric ORPG's with non-grind itemization (gear is varied but easy to acquire), no reliance on level grind, and a detailed skill system which offers you real choices.
Rather than conclude that the OP is looking for a game on par with those they mentioned, rather than accept their viewpoint that many MMORPG's don't require skill, you stereotype them incorrectly as some crazy shooter kiddy, suggesting Planetside, but only after you mention six times that MMORPG's are above shooters in terms of utilizing one's faculties.
In fact I did raise the possibility of a non-item centric PvP based RPG. However, my interpretation of the OP is that they want their own ability at the controls to outweigh any of their characters abilities, something they will not find in any true RPG. It doesn’t matter what game they are looking at, if this is what they are seeking they will ultimately be disappointed in any RPG.
I’ll also point out that I assigned no value to game type. There are a lot of people out there who would enjoy a FPS or RTS in a persistent world. Even though I wouldn’t’ be interested in the FPS I don’t view it as a lesser game type.
MMORPG’s require a lot of long term strategic thinking, a lot of teamwork and a decent amount of tactical and management skill. These are actually higher on the totem pole then the muscle memory clicky skills most people think of when they say they want a game that “requires skill”.
The whole idea behind any RPG is that your character possesses the low level skills like swinging a sword freeing you up for the higher level strategic and tactical decisions. If it doesn’t operate this way *it isn’t an RPG*.
I get the sense that what the OP is really looking for isn’t an MMORPG but a FPS in a persistent world. The only game of this that comes to mind is Planetside.
He could simply be looking for a game that isn’t item centric, but I kind of doubt it. Basing a game around the acquisition of items works well for PvE games but not so well in PvP games. For PvP you generally need items to be generic and fairly easy to replace EVE and UO would fit this model, but they are still RPG’s at heart so your twitch skill doesn’t play a big role.
The OP says they've played Guild Wars, then says they'll accept a game with "some grind", finally mentioning that they're looking forward to Darkfall. Both GW and Darkfall (Darkfall as promised, anyway) are PvP-centric ORPG's with non-grind itemization (gear is varied but easy to acquire), no reliance on level grind, and a detailed skill system which offers you real choices.
Rather than conclude that the OP is looking for a game on par with those they mentioned, rather than accept their viewpoint that many MMORPG's don't require skill, you stereotype them incorrectly as some crazy shooter kiddy, suggesting Planetside, but only after you mention six times that MMORPG's are above shooters in terms of utilizing one's faculties.
In fact I did raise the possibility of a non-item centric PvP based RPG. However, my interpretation of the OP is that they want their own ability at the controls to outweigh any of their characters abilities, something they will not find in any true RPG. It doesn’t matter what game they are looking at, if this is what they are seeking they will ultimately be disappointed in any RPG.
I’ll also point out that I assigned no value to game type. There are a lot of people out there who would enjoy a FPS or RTS in a persistent world. Even though I wouldn’t’ be interested in the FPS I don’t view it as a lesser game type.
From that point of view, I agree with you. An mmofps might be interesting to a lot of people.
Try out DDO maybe. If you arn't ducking, dodging, or jumping out of the way of that big ogres Mace, you'll be kissing dirt. And don't expect it to hold your hands and swing for you either, if you want to hit something then do it yourself.
The Arena system in WoW introduced with BC is very good, I've come against some superbly skilled players - and some crap players too, admittedly. 2v2, 5v5 etc.... has a ladder system and everything. And of course WoW is popular as hell so finding an opponent is very quick.
WoW is NOT skilled. Anyone who thinks it's deep, haven't played a real skilled game, or at least can't see beneath the surface of lowest layer of skill(for example CS, SC and Wc3x. Easy to play. But if you want to play it in tournaments, it would take forever to master. when I played Wc3x, I had over 1500 matches online and I were still learning/optimizing things and my play)
I'd say the best bet is AoC because it's rewarding:
Good Tactics including good leadership and teamwork (Player Based Formation and Collision detection / Terrain advantage)
Reactions (If you're fast you can dodge)
Hand to Eye coordination (Instead of having an aim stat, you aim your arrows and fireballs)
Knoweldge (Spellweaving rewarding those who know about spells)
More balanced PvP and less item based (Seperate PvE and PvP stats for items/skills)
Timing (Time your attacks and you make faster attacks)
AoC is rewarding most areas of skill, compared to other games which only reward in areas.
Yes yes, heard it all before. WoW takes "no skill". Whatever you say there... *rolleyes*. It's just a game of chance is it? Can't beat people with slightly better gear can you? You talk about layers of skill but it sounds like you haven't peeled away the first level of WoW skill. There are opponents at every level, with every tier of gear. You are playing against other people, with other people, and there are many different skills and abilties - how does that differ from any other MMO? I've played EQ2 PvP, Planetside. There's no difference in skill, I'm playing against the same stereotypical nerds.
Of course I play WoW almost every day, and you're completely wrong. Are you implying that I've never played a "real" game? I practised my Quake for years, perfecting my aim, I have every single map permanently etched into my brain, and I still never made pro, but I was in the top Division for the United Kingdom 4v4 league at the time...
WoW doesn't require skill. But you won't beat the skilled players without skill. Applies to most games.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
The Arena system in WoW introduced with BC is very good, I've come against some superbly skilled players - and some crap players too, admittedly. 2v2, 5v5 etc.... has a ladder system and everything. And of course WoW is popular as hell so finding an opponent is very quick.
WoW is NOT skilled. Anyone who thinks it's deep, haven't played a real skilled game, or at least can't see beneath the surface of lowest layer of skill(for example CS, SC and Wc3x. Easy to play. But if you want to play it in tournaments, it would take forever to master. when I played Wc3x, I had over 1500 matches online and I were still learning/optimizing things and my play)
I'd say the best bet is AoC because it's rewarding:
Good Tactics including good leadership and teamwork (Player Based Formation and Collision detection / Terrain advantage)
Reactions (If you're fast you can dodge)
Hand to Eye coordination (Instead of having an aim stat, you aim your arrows and fireballs)
Knoweldge (Spellweaving rewarding those who know about spells)
More balanced PvP and less item based (Seperate PvE and PvP stats for items/skills)
Timing (Time your attacks and you make faster attacks)
AoC is rewarding most areas of skill, compared to other games which only reward in areas.
Yes yes, heard it all before. WoW takes "no skill". Whatever you say there... *rolleyes*. It's just a game of chance is it? Can't beat people with slightly better gear can you? You talk about layers of skill but it sounds like you haven't peeled away the first level of WoW skill. There are opponents at every level, with every tier of gear. You are playing against other people, with other people, and there are many different skills and abilties - how does that differ from any other MMO? I've played EQ2 PvP, Planetside. There's no difference in skill, I'm playing against the same stereotypical nerds.
Of course I play WoW almost every day, and you're completely wrong. Are you implying that I've never played a "real" game? I practised my Quake for years, perfecting my aim, I have every single map permanently etched into my brain, and I still never made pro, but I was in the top Division for the United Kingdom 4v4 league at the time...
WoW doesn't require skill. But you won't beat the skilled players without skill. Applies to most games.
Would you say WoW requires as much personal training(not item/level) grinding as quake? WoW is not just a game of chance, and there is some kind of skill involved(said WoW is not skilled. I say that when I compare to games I view as demanding and fit for E-sport), but it's undermined due to the very nature of the game. Somebody in a fight would almost ALWAYS have an edge on you. Better equipment/better gear and so on. Compare it to playing Quake. If somebody had played long enough to get his life tripled, he wouldn't need as much skill to succed and a normal player would.
WoW skill is pretty much boiled down to using the right spells at the right time when playing 1on1. It requires some timing, little reactions and good knoweldge. I can't think of a game that i see as skilled that doesn't at least require that and a lot more. Take cs: Timing is definately needed, reactions and hand to eye coordination is imperative. Knoweldge(more like experience in cs) is also very important, due to the fact, that if you've played long enough you can predict player moves and you would always how to position yourself absolute optimal.
Seriously. What is more demanding for you? Playing Quake or playing WoW? Which game took the longest time to develope your own skills in?
Truth is, in my opinion, that no current MMO will ever require as much skill fps and rts games.
Muscle twitches and reflexes are *not* what "skill" means in an RPG context.
An RPG is a game where the character's skills, stats and so forth are determinitive. That's the whole point of an RPG and why it is different from an FPS, where you are basically playing as yourself, and your success depends very much on your out-of-game fine motor muscle memory. The "player skill" in an RPG comes from managing your character well, choosing which of your character's skills to use when, and so forth -- it should not determine whether your character succeeds at an action chosen by the player -- that should be determined by the character's skills.
To be honest I hope that there remain very few "skillz"-based MMOs, because this approach runs completely counter to what an RPG should be.
Congratulations on imposing your opinion as an arbitrary definition, apparently you would prefer initiating combat and going to sleep while the server automatically determines who wins. Hmm, come to think of it, lets cut out the waiting time entirely, save the developers some headaches in terms of animation and turn it into a quick stat comparison contest that simply says if you win or lose!
Last time I checked, no roleplaying character ever won every single fight by having the opponent look at how much higher his/her stats are and just giving up because of it. Said character might win every time because of those stats in the end, but it was because of how he/she used his/her abilities, not their mere presence.
Fortunately for the both of us, the main "skillz" based MMO people are talking about here (AoC) has more customization in terms of player skills, stats, and abilities than almost any of the "RPG" ones.
As I wrote, the skill in an RPG comes from choosing what to do when -- not from manual dexterity of the player in manually aiming or things like that. In an RPG the character has a separate skillset from you -- that's not an arbitrary definition, it's the defining characteristic of RPGs from time immemorial. When you don't have that separation between the character and the player in terms of skills, then it's simply the case that the character is in reality the player's alter-ego, which can be a fun game, but by definition it isn't a roleplaying game. It's more like a "fantasy adventure game". Now there's nothing wrong with that, so there's no point in getting all huffy and defensive about your chosen golden-boy game -- there's room enough for different styles of game for different tastes. But games like that should not be claiming to be RPGs when they discard the core defining characteristic of what makes an RPG what it is.
Comments
Never heard so much crap. MMOs just require different skills to FPSs, and FPSs require different skills to RTSs, etc, etc.
If there was no skill in MMOs, you wouldnt get good tanks and bad tanks and every raid would result in success, there would be no need for PvP rankings as everyone would be equal.
For example, PvP in EVE is fairly skillful, there are twitch elements to the small scale fights, you need to know how to pick your fights and it helps to know what your enemy is most likely using on their chosen ship.
Rather than conclude that the OP is looking for a game on par with those they mentioned, rather than accept their viewpoint that many MMORPG's don't require skill, you stereotype them incorrectly as some crazy shooter kiddy, suggesting Planetside, but only after you mention six times that MMORPG's are above shooters in terms of utilizing one's faculties.
Rather than conclude that the OP is looking for a game on par with those they mentioned, rather than accept their viewpoint that many MMORPG's don't require skill, you stereotype them incorrectly as some crazy shooter kiddy, suggesting Planetside, but only after you mention six times that MMORPG's are above shooters in terms of utilizing one's faculties.
From that point of view, I agree with you. An mmofps might be interesting to a lot of people.
TCOS - The Chronicles of Spellborn http://tcos.com/
Its all about skill. Check it out.
I'd say the best bet is AoC because it's rewarding:
Good Tactics including good leadership and teamwork (Player Based Formation and Collision detection / Terrain advantage)
Reactions (If you're fast you can dodge)
Hand to Eye coordination (Instead of having an aim stat, you aim your arrows and fireballs)
Knoweldge (Spellweaving rewarding those who know about spells)
More balanced PvP and less item based (Seperate PvE and PvP stats for items/skills)
Timing (Time your attacks and you make faster attacks)
AoC is rewarding most areas of skill, compared to other games which only reward in areas.
Yes yes, heard it all before. WoW takes "no skill". Whatever you say there... *rolleyes*. It's just a game of chance is it? Can't beat people with slightly better gear can you? You talk about layers of skill but it sounds like you haven't peeled away the first level of WoW skill. There are opponents at every level, with every tier of gear. You are playing against other people, with other people, and there are many different skills and abilties - how does that differ from any other MMO? I've played EQ2 PvP, Planetside. There's no difference in skill, I'm playing against the same stereotypical nerds.
Of course I play WoW almost every day, and you're completely wrong. Are you implying that I've never played a "real" game? I practised my Quake for years, perfecting my aim, I have every single map permanently etched into my brain, and I still never made pro, but I was in the top Division for the United Kingdom 4v4 league at the time...
WoW doesn't require skill. But you won't beat the skilled players without skill. Applies to most games.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
I'd say the best bet is AoC because it's rewarding:
Good Tactics including good leadership and teamwork (Player Based Formation and Collision detection / Terrain advantage)
Reactions (If you're fast you can dodge)
Hand to Eye coordination (Instead of having an aim stat, you aim your arrows and fireballs)
Knoweldge (Spellweaving rewarding those who know about spells)
More balanced PvP and less item based (Seperate PvE and PvP stats for items/skills)
Timing (Time your attacks and you make faster attacks)
AoC is rewarding most areas of skill, compared to other games which only reward in areas.
Yes yes, heard it all before. WoW takes "no skill". Whatever you say there... *rolleyes*. It's just a game of chance is it? Can't beat people with slightly better gear can you? You talk about layers of skill but it sounds like you haven't peeled away the first level of WoW skill. There are opponents at every level, with every tier of gear. You are playing against other people, with other people, and there are many different skills and abilties - how does that differ from any other MMO? I've played EQ2 PvP, Planetside. There's no difference in skill, I'm playing against the same stereotypical nerds.
Of course I play WoW almost every day, and you're completely wrong. Are you implying that I've never played a "real" game? I practised my Quake for years, perfecting my aim, I have every single map permanently etched into my brain, and I still never made pro, but I was in the top Division for the United Kingdom 4v4 league at the time...
WoW doesn't require skill. But you won't beat the skilled players without skill. Applies to most games.
Would you say WoW requires as much personal training(not item/level) grinding as quake? WoW is not just a game of chance, and there is some kind of skill involved(said WoW is not skilled. I say that when I compare to games I view as demanding and fit for E-sport), but it's undermined due to the very nature of the game. Somebody in a fight would almost ALWAYS have an edge on you. Better equipment/better gear and so on. Compare it to playing Quake. If somebody had played long enough to get his life tripled, he wouldn't need as much skill to succed and a normal player would.
WoW skill is pretty much boiled down to using the right spells at the right time when playing 1on1. It requires some timing, little reactions and good knoweldge. I can't think of a game that i see as skilled that doesn't at least require that and a lot more. Take cs: Timing is definately needed, reactions and hand to eye coordination is imperative. Knoweldge(more like experience in cs) is also very important, due to the fact, that if you've played long enough you can predict player moves and you would always how to position yourself absolute optimal.
Seriously. What is more demanding for you? Playing Quake or playing WoW? Which game took the longest time to develope your own skills in?
Truth is, in my opinion, that no current MMO will ever require as much skill fps and rts games.
Last time I checked, no roleplaying character ever won every single fight by having the opponent look at how much higher his/her stats are and just giving up because of it. Said character might win every time because of those stats in the end, but it was because of how he/she used his/her abilities, not their mere presence.
Fortunately for the both of us, the main "skillz" based MMO people are talking about here (AoC) has more customization in terms of player skills, stats, and abilities than almost any of the "RPG" ones.
As I wrote, the skill in an RPG comes from choosing what to do when -- not from manual dexterity of the player in manually aiming or things like that. In an RPG the character has a separate skillset from you -- that's not an arbitrary definition, it's the defining characteristic of RPGs from time immemorial. When you don't have that separation between the character and the player in terms of skills, then it's simply the case that the character is in reality the player's alter-ego, which can be a fun game, but by definition it isn't a roleplaying game. It's more like a "fantasy adventure game". Now there's nothing wrong with that, so there's no point in getting all huffy and defensive about your chosen golden-boy game -- there's room enough for different styles of game for different tastes. But games like that should not be claiming to be RPGs when they discard the core defining characteristic of what makes an RPG what it is.
not really an mmorpg more like a mfps just nonstop shooting-slicing fun
heres the link: gunz.ijji.com
Cheers for all the tip/help! been real helpfull.
thanks.