Will most MMORPGs be casual?

cityzen · March 2007

I was reading the IGN article MMOs Set to Grow and the following stood out:

"Growth in the (MMO) market will be primarily driven by increasing broadband household penetration, increasing penetration of online console platforms, and the continued introduction of more casual MMOG experiences, which are attractive to a wide number of consumers."

So, if you take the above as true and apply it to the MMORPG market, do you think that casual players are what ultimately will drive the MMORPG market? They probably do so already to some degree, but MMORPGs to me still have more of a hardcore gamer feel, meaning a steeper learning curve and longer lifespan. Do you think MMORPGs will eventually all look more like console games than PC games? That is, less open ended gaming, and more linear plot driven games. I think there probably will always be a market for niche games, but companies want to make money, so why shouldn't they go for the biggest slice of the pie..

CabeB2323 · March 2007

Casual Gamers already do drive the market. No offense at all against the "hardcore" gamers but they are more of a niche market now. First off they are less in numbers then casuals. Secondly they are harder to provide content to. And most important of all they generally burn through a game faster and move onto something new. Why would a developer want to target that crowd for their game. Especially in a genre like MMOs where the monthly subscriptions is where you profit is going to come from. You want a gamer who is slower to finish the content, but not too slow that they get frustrated. You also want a gamer who will be loyal to the game and play it for years to come. This all points more to the casual players then the hardcore gamers.

shae · March 2007

I think it's silly to look at that cut and dry. It's not all white and black, games in the future will not just be either for hardcore gamers or casual gamers.

WoW is a great example of this, almost any casual gamer can play WoW but have you ever seen a casual gamer in top tier armor? It can be done of course, but it's a lot less likely. In other words, WoW has it's own version of hardcore gaming. Boring as hell for alot of people but none the less, it's there.

Lineage2 is a pretty hardcore game but can it be played by casual gamers too? Absolutely. As a matter of fact, it's a great game for casual gamers. But of course, there's a great deal to do for hardcore min/maxers who consider themselves hardcore. It's all a matter of how you play the game.

This isn't to say their WON'T be casual games and hardcore games, someone will always make these. But I think developers are getting smarter, they are designing games that are easy to learn, hard to master. It's a good way of hitting both markets and trying to get everyone a piece of the pie.

CabeB2323 · March 2007

Originally posted by shae

I think it's silly to look at that cut and dry. It's not all white and black, games in the future will not just be either for hardcore gamers or casual gamers.
WoW is a great example of this, almost any casual gamer can play WoW but have you ever seen a casual gamer in top tier armor? It can be done of course, but it's a lot less likely. In other words, WoW has it's own version of hardcore gaming. Boring as hell for alot of people but none the less, it's there.
Lineage2 is a pretty hardcore game but can it be played by casual gamers too? Absolutely. As a matter of fact, it's a great game for casual gamers. But of course, there's a great deal to do for hardcore min/maxers who consider themselves hardcore. It's all a matter of how you play the game.
This isn't to say their WON'T be casual games and hardcore games, someone will always make these. But I think developers are getting smarter, they are designing games that are easy to learn, hard to master. It's a good way of hitting both markets and trying to get everyone a piece of the pie.

Yeah, but I guess it depends on your definition of Hardcore. On wow the only thing you need to be hardcore is time. That is the only determining factor between being a hardcore player and being a casual player. A Perfect example of this is when I was stationed in Keflavik Iceland I was more or less a casual player of WoW I went to a few Molten Core Raids, but if I did I had to stay up to 4amish due to the time difference. Now when I got stationed in NAS Pensacola I was able to get my character fully loaded in Tier 2 while playing over a period of a 2-3 months. I was no more hardcore then I was in Iceland, but I had more time to play.

Hardcore to me is more then just having the most time to play. Once a game finds the right formula to use skill as opposed to time in their MMO I think it will be a huge success. The closest game to this was Asheron's Call 1 since you could strafe and dodge missile attacks and spells.

thaak · March 2007

Originally posted by shae

I think it's silly to look at that cut and dry. It's not all white and black, games in the future will not just be either for hardcore gamers or casual gamers.
WoW is a great example of this, almost any casual gamer can play WoW but have you ever seen a casual gamer in top tier armor? It can be done of course, but it's a lot less likely. In other words, WoW has it's own version of hardcore gaming. Boring as hell for alot of people but none the less, it's there.
Lineage2 is a pretty hardcore game but can it be played by casual gamers too? Absolutely. As a matter of fact, it's a great game for casual gamers. But of course, there's a great deal to do for hardcore min/maxers who consider themselves hardcore. It's all a matter of how you play the game.
This isn't to say their WON'T be casual games and hardcore games, someone will always make these. But I think developers are getting smarter, they are designing games that are easy to learn, hard to master. It's a good way of hitting both markets and trying to get everyone a piece of the pie.

shae hit it right on the nail. It isn't about a casual game vs. a hardcore game; it is about the same game providing content for both types of players. A lot of the games out there right now, you are able to fit nicely in one of the two groups, but we are seeing more and more games being developed that will be able to cater to both the casual gamer and the hardcore min/max'er. Frankly, I am excited about this. Although most of the time I have to be a casual player due to a time schedule that leaves for only a bit of time for MMO's, there are time periods where I just want to sit down and play that complete shit out of a game. That's when a game like WoW comes in, when I'd be able to do both.

Unfortunately, just because a game can do both (WoW), doesn't mean it won't get boring. I'm bored as hell of WoW. But like it or not, shae is right. WoW is so successful BECAUSE both types of players (casual and hardcore) can play it and have fun.

shae · March 2007

Originally posted by CabeB2323

Originally posted by shae

I think it's silly to look at that cut and dry. It's not all white and black, games in the future will not just be either for hardcore gamers or casual gamers.
WoW is a great example of this, almost any casual gamer can play WoW but have you ever seen a casual gamer in top tier armor? It can be done of course, but it's a lot less likely. In other words, WoW has it's own version of hardcore gaming. Boring as hell for alot of people but none the less, it's there.
Lineage2 is a pretty hardcore game but can it be played by casual gamers too? Absolutely. As a matter of fact, it's a great game for casual gamers. But of course, there's a great deal to do for hardcore min/maxers who consider themselves hardcore. It's all a matter of how you play the game.
This isn't to say their WON'T be casual games and hardcore games, someone will always make these. But I think developers are getting smarter, they are designing games that are easy to learn, hard to master. It's a good way of hitting both markets and trying to get everyone a piece of the pie.

Yeah, but I guess it depends on your definition of Hardcore. On wow the only thing you need to be hardcore is time. That is the only determining factor between being a hardcore player and being a casual player. A Perfect example of this is when I was stationed in Keflavik Iceland I was more or less a casual player of WoW I went to a few Molten Core Raids, but if I did I had to stay up to 4amish due to the time difference. Now when I got stationed in NAS Pensacola I was able to get my character fully loaded in Tier 2 while playing over a period of a 2-3 months. I was no more hardcore then I was in Iceland, but I had more time to play.

Hardcore to me is more then just having the most time to play. Once a game finds the right formula to use skill as opposed to time in their MMO I think it will be a huge success. The closest game to this was Asheron's Call 1 since you could strafe and dodge missile attacks and spells.

Well sure but that's personal taste and a games mechanics. Lineage1 for example used to have all it's raiding and castle seiging at un-godly hours in the morning, they learned their mistakes and changed things up for Lineage2.

It's not so much what I define as a hardcore but what the game defines as hardcore. That's what we're trying to get to here, no?

If a game has mulitple avenues for you to achiev and end goal, than it is trying to include as many people as possible. WoW does this and does it pretty well, so did SoR. There's not dissputing what WoW considers a "hardcore" player, of course it's a matter of "time spent" but for SoR it was something diffrent. So really, as I said, it's what the game defines as hardcore not really what I or yourself think of it as.

Drafell · March 2007

For the mainstream market then yes, the core drive behind the industry will be for those casual gamers - the people who like to log in for maybe 30 minutes-1 hour a day. This doesn't mean however, that there isn't and won't be room for the niche MMO's that are more appealing to a more restricted audience.

Neanderthal · March 2007

Originally posted by cityzen

Do you think MMORPGs will eventually all look more like console games than PC games? That is, less open ended gaming, and more linear plot driven games.

This is good example of how two people can interpret things in completely different ways. I've always felt that it was the self-proclaimed 'hardcore' gamers who have continually pushed for games to be more linear and less open ended. Aren't they the ones who are always in favor of level based, item centric games where progression is more important than anything else? That's what forces mmorpgs to be so linear. Aren't they the ones who are always insisting that there be an end-game and that the end-game MUST be designed just for them and nobody else?

Aren't they the ones who scream bloody murder at the idea of item breakage/loss or PvP looting? So afraid to lose their precious loot that they prefer to see the game's economy stagnate and mudflation run rampant. Aren't they the ones who most strongly resist the idea of perma-death in any form? Because they want to get ahead and stay ahead at all costs.

All that stuff and more is why these games are so linear and static and are more like -closed path games- than -virtual worlds-. And from years of gaming and reading message boards I attribute most of that directly to the people who like to identify themselves as hardcore gamers.

spraguep · March 2007

Companies are in the business of making money, especially publicly trades ones. So it’s in their best financial interest to make products that appeal to the widest audience.

The casual audience vastly outnumbers the “hardcore” one therefore the bulk of MMOs will mimic whatever is considered to be the most casual MMO design.

You can see this in LOTR and Vanguard which both borrow heavily from WoW in terms of design, similar interface, quest systems, etc. It’s very easy to move between all three games, in fact Vanguard has almost all the same default keyboard bindings as WoW.

WoW’s end game may be boring and hated but the game has a lot of polish everywhere else and many new games copy and fine tune (or at least try to) the features WoW has.

For a while I thought Vanguard was going for a “hardcore” niche but in my time playing the game they increased XP several times which seems like it goes against their “hardcore” group grinding sandbox of boredom.

I’m sure some MMOs will target niche markets exclusively but they will never by wildly successful when compared to their casual counterparts.

nomadian · March 2007

Why would a more casual mmorpg mean less open-endedness? To me, what makes a mmorpg not casual is with a high time-intensity of objectives.

Are you more or less questioning that as mmorpgs are making their move to consoles that the average time playing is going to be considerably less? I'll answer yes to this as I think console owners are less likely to be willing to waste 3-4 hours of contingent time on a console. Also, it could be a good time to bring up Phantasy Star Online. I'm not sure how casual/hardcore this was but it was a console mmorpg.

Chessack · March 2007

There's one simple reason why casual players are likely to drive the market from now on: there are more of them. The reason WOW is doing so well is, in part, that it caters to a larger audience. The "hardcore MMO" audience is extremely small -- a few hundreds of thousands of people, maybe. There are millions and millions of casual (non-hardcore) gamers. Any game that wants to be a big success, is going to have to cater to them. Despite the raucous caterwauling of the hardcore folks.

C

Kyleran · March 2007

I think its very hard to define the term, "hard-core" gamer. Hardcore at what, exactly.

There are those here who think that WOW's raiders who grind their way through the end game Pve instances are hardcore. Others disagree and point to people who pvp'd until they made High Warlord...and yet an other group feels that nothing about WOW's pve endgame is hardcore..other than the painful amount of time you spend pushing the same 3 buttons.

Some point to EvE, or VG and say...these games are hardcore. Some look nostalgically backwards at UO and early EQ..and say...thats when games were games, and men were men. Some say only Asian games can be truely hardcore, while others accuse them of being boring grindfests.

Some games like WOW run on almost any computer, while others are targeted at the Cray Super computer market. Does a user have to have an expensive gaming computer to be considered hardcore?

I think we'll see many games geared to appeal to the vast number of people who might enjoy MMORPG's, but haven't joined in the fun yet. One big problem is the price point of the hardware. The next big thing (room for largest market share) in my opinion is a MMO that plays really well on a cheap console, like an XBOX 360, or even a Wii.

Since MMO's are all big time productions these days, its going to be a challenge for a development team to set their investor's expectations realistically...and help them be satisfied with a decent return on their investment. (all games cannot equal WOW's financial success, nor should they need to). Dev's are going to have to work hard at coming up with ways to keep the development costs low. Just like in the movie industry, some very good films are made inexpensively, and some of the worst have 100 million dollar budgets.

Drafell · March 2007

I definitely think we will see a convergence of PC and console based MMO's. Consoles themselves lean much more towards the casual player and so this will have a major impact on the industry. Yet this also has a big downside in that there is much less flexibility in what you can tweak and change in a game that is also designed to be played on a console. Massive 1-200mb patches after release won't be a realistic option to consider, so I wouldn't be surprised to see shorter, more episodic MMO type games coming out with a lot more modular content.

A good point of this is that is also should result in further streamlining of game interfaces and controls and hopefully more stringent release production values.

Tnice · March 2007

Hardcore is not equal to timesink. To me being a casual player does not mean I want dumbed down content, less exciting gameplay, etc. It means that I do not have huge chunks of time for non-fun activities such as finding a group, traveling, and other un-fun activities.

Casual is not equal to soloing. The next generation game companies need to design the LFG tool first. Design the game around it. I want to log into the game and get going in an adventure with a group of people quickly. If I am crafting that is a different matter however for adventure I want to adventure not LFG.

There are some smart people who create these games. Some of them have to play them also so I am sure they do not have 15+ hours a day to live in a virtual world. Make a game that they themselves can play and it will be successful.

If I could interview a Game Designer the first question to ask is "Do you play this game?" If the answer is "No", odds are the game will be a failure.

roamie · March 2007

i think hardcore gamer try to improve and fine tune there skills while working towards a set goal. this goal usually is an item or an ingame title. i also dont think a game in non casual because you have to spend a lot of time in order to get your skills unfolded. owning a wow raid dungeon set proves you are a disciplined player. but you probably have gained a lot of social and strategic skills while going to the dungeon a few dozen times. in my opinion a non casual game is a game that supports and rewards these "experienced player" skills.

JMoney95 · March 2007

Unfortunately "Casual" usually means "easy". Look at WoW, the most appealing to casual players, by far the easiest level-based MMO in terms of pretty much everything.

cityzen · March 2007

Great replys all, some replys of my own:

I think the safest definition to cover all hardcore players is to say a hardcore player has more invested in a game than a casual player, whether that be time, money, or whatever in the game mechanics allows for that player to be more advanced than most other players. By that definition veterans of a game can be considered more hardcore than a new player. This is of course ignoring botters and ebayers.

I don't see how you can't include time played as a factor in every case though... Doing otherwise in my mind makes playing the game meaningless. I think most people would agree that some one who has been playing a game for a year shouldn't be surpassed by someone whos been playing the game one day.

I see things like a game being item centric and level based as just ways to develop a character. Not sure I agree on those being hardcore player issues only, there has to be some strategic way to develop your character or it would be a different kind of game. I also think that casual gamers get upset when game mechanics change and affect gameplay, or when there's no end game content so don't think those are only hardcore issues either. I can see how incorporating certain elements to develop a character would make games more linear, but totally open gaming would probabaly be pretty boring to most people also.

Open-ended to me means being able to go off on your own path, and not follow a set storyline, could be time intensive or not. I think console games for the most part are very restrictive when it comes to this, thinking RPGs here. You have a storyline to follow and that's it. MMORPGs usually offer several, or the option of developing your character some other way. An MMORPG on a console is a different category, though I agree with you that console players probably won't want to invest the time a PC player would. I didn't get to play PSO though I did play PSU, are they similar? If so that's a perfect example of how I see MMORPGs evolving into more of a console look and feel. I don't think all MMORPGs will go to console, but I do think they will be less about exploration and more about episodic content.

I agree casual does not mean easy.

I think there are examples of games that started more hardcore and became more casual. Two games I can think of are EQ2 and SWG, EQ2 pulled it off while SWG bombed.

Thoughts?

roamie · March 2007

what i meant when i wrote non casual was challenging. challenging not only because it takes discipline to get back to the same dungeon again and again but because it will put the group in a social stress situation or a situation where stretegic team play is required. the game may be casual because the missions may be easy to complete, but it can stay challenging because it rewards the degree of proffessionality and efficiency this is done.

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Will most MMORPGs be casual?

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