Actually, I support players' rights to "cheat" in single player games, because they're single player games. If they want to start Oblivion with a character whose skills are all set to 100, I could care less. Doesn't affect my playing of Oblivion in any way. Heck, I'll occasionally cheat in my second playerthrough of a game. Been doing so all the way back to the original Fallout, where you could download a fan-made program to set all your stats to 10.
Also, don't tell others to "STFU" about thier opinions. They have a right to disagree. You'll notice that above, I had no problem with Kyriakos voicing a different opinion. It was only when he insulted the rest of us that I felt the need to respond.
Seriously. It's Are'el. This forum doesn't allow apostrophes in usernames.
Amazing, we voice a concern about something and we are envious? Do you work for professional sports? Are you on steroids and think that the other players who do not juice, are just envious of those who do steroids? If so please tell me what sport your in, so that i may call the appropriate authorities!.
You can't be serious, can you?
I am not envious of someone with a higher lvl character. Or more gold. Because that usually does not happen to me. I am disabled and cannot work at the moment. I can play 24 hours a day if I want. Believe me I am not envious of someone to lazy or to busy to actually play a game they bought.
If envy is the best reason you can think of for us to voice concerns about the issue, then I feel sorry for your closed minded view of others.
But you will probably say I am just envious of you brilliant take on our psychology.
Your post pretty much has the rationale of why many people are against buying/selling/trading accounts/gold. You have lots of time to play the game and you want that time that you put in to translate into a better character, more gold, or otherwise special. That's fine, that's your choice and ability to play the game that much. Lots of other people don't have the time to do so, so how does buying/selling/trading accounts really hurt you. Yes it means that some people who don't have as much time as you can spend money for an equivalent account without putting as much time into it. But other than that, how does it hurt you? It's a game, let other people play how they wish. Its not like because someone bought an account or bought gold that your character isn't any good anymore.
Personally I'm all for buying/selling trading accounts. Typically I'll level one character to max and play with him. But sometimes I want to switch characters because I got bored and don't have the time or drive to level another character to max again. So why not trade and start with a character at max which is where alot of the fun aspects of the game are. Or when I tire of a game and I'm done with it, I sell the game and my character to make some of my money back from playing it to move onto new games to play and so that someone else can enjoy the character I greatly enjoyed. One of the accounts I sold was to a guy in the navy who wanted to play a high level warrior while he was abroad. He didn't have much time to play so he bought my account and was able to enjoy the fun aspects of the game. It was a win/win/win situation. Win for me, the guy, and the development company as it kept the account alive.
O.o I thought the whole point and fun factor of playing a game is the experience you have. Lol, the 'fun' part doesn't happen at the end-game, that's just cheating yourself out of the whole experience. If some people are too damn competitive, let them buy their gold and accounts and items and so-forth. I'm just here to have fun.
Ok maybe I'm against gold because it screws with the economy
That's another point of arguement. Is it right to profit from these games, when the User Agreement expressly forbids it? Now, not all User Agreements declare selling accounts as against the rules. If the devs don't mind, then I don't mind. Well, not as much, anyway.
But I'm pretty certain that Blizzard forbids account selling. If that's true, then I think earning a profit, no matter what the good intentions (selling to a military soldier), is still wrong. If you wanted to help someone out, then just giving the account to them would have been less objectionable.
Aside from the fact that the transaction breaks the Agreement you signed (or, clicked "I Agree"), there's also the question of whether you should get your money back. You pay for a service, you use the service, you (supposedly) enjoy the service. Profiting from it afterwards just doesn't seem right. I can get tv cable service, but I'm not allowed to start selling taped copies of HBO movies out of my van for profit. I can go to a theme park and have fun for half a day, but I'm not allowed to go out the gate and sell my day pass to someone else for the rest of the day.
I guess my point is, if the game company declares rules against account selling, then it doesn't matter what good comes out of it. It's still wrong. I have no idea what Mythic will do in regards to WAR, but people that play their game should abide by whatever rules they Agree to.
Seriously. It's Are'el. This forum doesn't allow apostrophes in usernames.
Tyfreaky, Your post pretty much has the rationale of why many people are against buying/selling/trading accounts/gold. You have lots of time to play the game and you want that time that you put in to translate into a better character, more gold, or otherwise special. That's fine, that's your choice and ability to play the game that much. Lots of other people don't have the time to do so, so how does buying/selling/trading accounts really hurt you. Yes it means that some people who don't have as much time as you can spend money for an equivalent account without putting as much time into it. But other than that, how does it hurt you? It's a game, let other people play how they wish. Its not like because someone bought an account or bought gold that your character isn't any good anymore. Personally I'm all for buying/selling trading accounts. Typically I'll level one character to max and play with him. But sometimes I want to switch characters because I got bored and don't have the time or drive to level another character to max again. So why not trade and start with a character at max which is where alot of the fun aspects of the game are. Or when I tire of a game and I'm done with it, I sell the game and my character to make some of my money back from playing it to move onto new games to play and so that someone else can enjoy the character I greatly enjoyed. One of the accounts I sold was to a guy in the navy who wanted to play a high level warrior while he was abroad. He didn't have much time to play so he bought my account and was able to enjoy the fun aspects of the game. It was a win/win/win situation. Win for me, the guy, and the development company as it kept the account alive. Thoughts?
Would you be willing to have a tag on your character that identified you as a user who paid for the rewards they are currently using/levels they are currently past?
I would be willing to accept different paths for advancement if there was a more acceptable way to do so/a way to ID these people. I would never group with a charactert who bought their levels, nor would I sell anything to someone who bought their gold.
That's another point of arguement. Is it right to profit from these games, when the User Agreement expressly forbids it? Now, not all User Agreements declare selling accounts as against the rules. If the devs don't mind, then I don't mind. Well, not as much, anyway. But I'm pretty certain that Blizzard forbids account selling. If that's true, then I think earning a profit, no matter what the good intentions (selling to a military soldier), is still wrong. If you wanted to help someone out, then just giving the account to them would have been less objectionable. Aside from the fact that the transaction breaks the Agreement you signed (or, clicked "I Agree"), there's also the question of whether you should get your money back. You pay for a service, you use the service, you (supposedly) enjoy the service. Profiting from it afterwards just doesn't seem right. I can get tv cable service, but I'm not allowed to start selling taped copies of HBO movies out of my van for profit. I can go to a theme park and have fun for half a day, but I'm not allowed to go out the gate and sell my day pass to someone else for the rest of the day. I guess my point is, if the game company declares rules against account selling, then it doesn't matter what good comes out of it. It's still wrong. I have no idea what Mythic will do in regards to WAR, but people that play their game should abide by whatever rules they Agree to.
There is absolutely no way that how I sold my account could be enforcable or is against the law. I bought the game, created an account based on the cdkey that physically came with the game, and then sold the game(with the associated account) to someone and mailed them all aspects of the game: book, box, cds, cdkey, etc.
If you prefer the technical argument, I sold my box of WoW with the associated account. Because I bought the box, it is my right to sell it. And the way companies wrap up account creation with the physical purchase of the game then the account goes with the box.
Blizzard does try to forbid account selling. But they can't forbid selling the actual game that you bought and the associated account. That's part of your rights with buying the physical game. It would be alot hazier if it was entirely electronic and had no physical purchase.
As for profiting from a service. It depends on how you look at it I guess. I paid them alot of money over the time I paid for the right to play on their servers. And that was fun and enjoyable. However selling my game and account to someone else does not hurt Blizzard. The account is still alive and they are still making money off it. I don't see the problem with it but I understand that some people don't like it. I look at it as everyone is happy. I'm happy since I got money to go try out a new MMORPG or game or something, the buyer is happy since he wanted the account, and Blizzard is happy because the account is still active.
O.o I thought the whole point and fun factor of playing a game is the experience you have. Lol, the 'fun' part doesn't happen at the end-game, that's just cheating yourself out of the whole experience. If some people are too damn competitive, let them buy their gold and accounts and items and so-forth. I'm just here to have fun.
Ok maybe I'm against gold because it screws with the economy
The "fun" part happens differently for different people. If you've leveled a couple characters to max already and want to enjoy the endgame with a different character then leveling often is no longer the fun part. You've done it before. So why not trade accounts and start with the part you havent' done before and still enjoy the game.
Tyfreaky, Your post pretty much has the rationale of why many people are against buying/selling/trading accounts/gold. You have lots of time to play the game and you want that time that you put in to translate into a better character, more gold, or otherwise special. That's fine, that's your choice and ability to play the game that much. Lots of other people don't have the time to do so, so how does buying/selling/trading accounts really hurt you. Yes it means that some people who don't have as much time as you can spend money for an equivalent account without putting as much time into it. But other than that, how does it hurt you? It's a game, let other people play how they wish. Its not like because someone bought an account or bought gold that your character isn't any good anymore. Personally I'm all for buying/selling trading accounts. Typically I'll level one character to max and play with him. But sometimes I want to switch characters because I got bored and don't have the time or drive to level another character to max again. So why not trade and start with a character at max which is where alot of the fun aspects of the game are. Or when I tire of a game and I'm done with it, I sell the game and my character to make some of my money back from playing it to move onto new games to play and so that someone else can enjoy the character I greatly enjoyed. One of the accounts I sold was to a guy in the navy who wanted to play a high level warrior while he was abroad. He didn't have much time to play so he bought my account and was able to enjoy the fun aspects of the game. It was a win/win/win situation. Win for me, the guy, and the development company as it kept the account alive. Thoughts?
Would you be willing to have a tag on your character that identified you as a user who paid for the rewards they are currently using/levels they are currently past?
I would be willing to accept different paths for advancement if there was a more acceptable way to do so/a way to ID these people. I would never group with a charactert who bought their levels, nor would I sell anything to someone who bought their gold.
Sure why not. And why would you never group with someone who traded/bought accounts? What's the reasoning?
That's another point of arguement. Is it right to profit from these games, when the User Agreement expressly forbids it? Now, not all User Agreements declare selling accounts as against the rules. If the devs don't mind, then I don't mind. Well, not as much, anyway. But I'm pretty certain that Blizzard forbids account selling. If that's true, then I think earning a profit, no matter what the good intentions (selling to a military soldier), is still wrong. If you wanted to help someone out, then just giving the account to them would have been less objectionable. Aside from the fact that the transaction breaks the Agreement you signed (or, clicked "I Agree"), there's also the question of whether you should get your money back. You pay for a service, you use the service, you (supposedly) enjoy the service. Profiting from it afterwards just doesn't seem right. I can get tv cable service, but I'm not allowed to start selling taped copies of HBO movies out of my van for profit. I can go to a theme park and have fun for half a day, but I'm not allowed to go out the gate and sell my day pass to someone else for the rest of the day. I guess my point is, if the game company declares rules against account selling, then it doesn't matter what good comes out of it. It's still wrong. I have no idea what Mythic will do in regards to WAR, but people that play their game should abide by whatever rules they Agree to.
There is absolutely no way that how I sold my account could be enforcable or is against the law. I bought the game, created an account based on the cdkey that physically came with the game, and then sold the game(with the associated account) to someone and mailed them all aspects of the game: book, box, cds, cdkey, etc.
If you prefer the technical argument, I sold my box of WoW with the associated account. Because I bought the box, it is my right to sell it. And the way companies wrap up account creation with the physical purchase of the game then the account goes with the box.
Blizzard does try to forbid account selling. But they can't forbid selling the actual game that you bought and the associated account. That's part of your rights with buying the physical game. It would be alot hazier if it was entirely electronic and had no physical purchase.
As for profiting from a service. It depends on how you look at it I guess. I paid them alot of money over the time I paid for the right to play on their servers. And that was fun and enjoyable. However selling my game and account to someone else does not hurt Blizzard. The account is still alive and they are still making money off it. I don't see the problem with it but I understand that some people don't like it. I look at it as everyone is happy. I'm happy since I got money to go try out a new MMORPG or game or something, the buyer is happy since he wanted the account, and Blizzard is happy because the account is still active.
Actually, you are correct in one respect, selling your account is not against the law. It is, however, against the EULA and it is entirely within Blizzard's right to ban the account should they chose to do so. And they have actually banned high profile accounts that have been brought to their attention. Its just hard for them to track an account like yours.
Oh well, I believe the WAR people have stated... Account selling...acceptable, for the reasons you stated...keeps money flowing in to Mythic, Gold/Item selling by farmers, bad... because it can drive players away from the game....
But...Mythic never showed any sort of resolve in banning farmers in DAOC... lets see if they can do better in WAR
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Tyfreaky, Your post pretty much has the rationale of why many people are against buying/selling/trading accounts/gold. You have lots of time to play the game and you want that time that you put in to translate into a better character, more gold, or otherwise special. That's fine, that's your choice and ability to play the game that much. Lots of other people don't have the time to do so, so how does buying/selling/trading accounts really hurt you. Yes it means that some people who don't have as much time as you can spend money for an equivalent account without putting as much time into it. But other than that, how does it hurt you? It's a game, let other people play how they wish. Its not like because someone bought an account or bought gold that your character isn't any good anymore. Personally I'm all for buying/selling trading accounts. Typically I'll level one character to max and play with him. But sometimes I want to switch characters because I got bored and don't have the time or drive to level another character to max again. So why not trade and start with a character at max which is where alot of the fun aspects of the game are. Or when I tire of a game and I'm done with it, I sell the game and my character to make some of my money back from playing it to move onto new games to play and so that someone else can enjoy the character I greatly enjoyed. One of the accounts I sold was to a guy in the navy who wanted to play a high level warrior while he was abroad. He didn't have much time to play so he bought my account and was able to enjoy the fun aspects of the game. It was a win/win/win situation. Win for me, the guy, and the development company as it kept the account alive. Thoughts?
Would you be willing to have a tag on your character that identified you as a user who paid for the rewards they are currently using/levels they are currently past?
I would be willing to accept different paths for advancement if there was a more acceptable way to do so/a way to ID these people. I would never group with a charactert who bought their levels, nor would I sell anything to someone who bought their gold.
Sure why not. And why would you never group with someone who traded/bought accounts? What's the reasoning?
In my experience the 1 - 70 (or whatever skill/level system) process is vital to learning the ins and outs of a specific character. The leveling system (in my opinion) is not just a way to get people to continue playing, but also a learning process. Even if you've leveled a _____ to 70, every other class is still a new experience. Players who bypass this process, in my opinion, are not as strong. If a player ebays they are telling me they would rather just toy around with a high level toon than actually learn their class enough to be a benefit to a group.
Also, buying items, in my opinion, totally goes against the Risk vs. Reward aspect of video games. I don't mind cheating in a one player game because the cheater's experience does not directly effect mine. When a player buys an item with real money they influence the market in a negative way. Also, when you buy an item with real money you are also missing out on vital opportunities to learn your class, and the dungeons or other content in the game.
Bottom line, a player who buys levels/skills/gold/items is missing out on the true essence of the game, hurting the economy, and therefore has no place next to me in battle.
i personally sold my pre 8 SWG jedi once the game started going in a direction i didnt like, i got a good portion of cash and built myself a new machine, with which i moved on to newer games, account trading is good too, i have friends that have traded accounts and got themselves a nice high end toon to play when they couldnt be bothered to play the game thru the early levels again, that being said the powerleveling companies are terrible yes they make a good amount of money for themselves but buying/selling gold/items for real world cash just destroys the economies so that new players can't afford anything decent and get bored/disgruntled and go to different games, in my opinion trading accounts between players is a good thing and should be supported but gold/item and powerleveled toons should not be supported by the community, which would therefore make these companies go out of buisness. but each to their own
That's another point of arguement. Is it right to profit from these games, when the User Agreement expressly forbids it? Now, not all User Agreements declare selling accounts as against the rules. If the devs don't mind, then I don't mind. Well, not as much, anyway. But I'm pretty certain that Blizzard forbids account selling. If that's true, then I think earning a profit, no matter what the good intentions (selling to a military soldier), is still wrong. If you wanted to help someone out, then just giving the account to them would have been less objectionable. Aside from the fact that the transaction breaks the Agreement you signed (or, clicked "I Agree"), there's also the question of whether you should get your money back. You pay for a service, you use the service, you (supposedly) enjoy the service. Profiting from it afterwards just doesn't seem right. I can get tv cable service, but I'm not allowed to start selling taped copies of HBO movies out of my van for profit. I can go to a theme park and have fun for half a day, but I'm not allowed to go out the gate and sell my day pass to someone else for the rest of the day. I guess my point is, if the game company declares rules against account selling, then it doesn't matter what good comes out of it. It's still wrong. I have no idea what Mythic will do in regards to WAR, but people that play their game should abide by whatever rules they Agree to.
There is absolutely no way that how I sold my account could be enforcable or is against the law. I bought the game, created an account based on the cdkey that physically came with the game, and then sold the game(with the associated account) to someone and mailed them all aspects of the game: book, box, cds, cdkey, etc.
If you prefer the technical argument, I sold my box of WoW with the associated account. Because I bought the box, it is my right to sell it. And the way companies wrap up account creation with the physical purchase of the game then the account goes with the box.
Blizzard does try to forbid account selling. But they can't forbid selling the actual game that you bought and the associated account. That's part of your rights with buying the physical game. It would be alot hazier if it was entirely electronic and had no physical purchase.
As for profiting from a service. It depends on how you look at it I guess. I paid them alot of money over the time I paid for the right to play on their servers. And that was fun and enjoyable. However selling my game and account to someone else does not hurt Blizzard. The account is still alive and they are still making money off it. I don't see the problem with it but I understand that some people don't like it. I look at it as everyone is happy. I'm happy since I got money to go try out a new MMORPG or game or something, the buyer is happy since he wanted the account, and Blizzard is happy because the account is still active.
Actually, you are correct in one respect, selling your account is not against the law. It is, however, against the EULA and it is entirely within Blizzard's right to ban the account should they chose to do so. And they have actually banned high profile accounts that have been brought to their attention. Its just hard for them to track an account like yours.
Oh well, I believe the WAR people have stated... Account selling...acceptable, for the reasons you stated...keeps money flowing in to Mythic, Gold/Item selling by farmers, bad... because it can drive players away from the game....
But...Mythic never showed any sort of resolve in banning farmers in DAOC... lets see if they can do better in WAR
It will be interesting to see what happens when and if it actually goes to court. I don't think Blizzard could get away with the EULA, since they are basically making it so people who bought the physical copy of their product can't resale it. Will definitely be interesting to see how that effects things when it goes to court...
Take the gear intensive style gameplay out and interject more skill into MMO game play and you'll have a winner. The problem with having games that are not gear intensive and require skill is that 10yr olds probably wont play it. Besides planetside I dont even think theres an MMO out there that isnt gear intensive.(meaning you must have xxxxx amount of gear by level xx or you wont fit in the community.) Hell in FFXI if you dont have blah blah spell or blah blah gear than forget it your out. I understand people not wanting to group/guild up with people that are unskilled. I completely understand that.. hell I don't want someone in my guild/group who doesnt know what the hell hes doing and whos not willing to learn or take pointers.
Its blurring the line between gear and skill is the problem. It seems to me that people...... especially young folks see gear and items as a physical manifestation of what having SKILL is. Its like seeing people at the local AH of your favorite MMO and stare at rare pieces of armor on someone and think to themselves.... "wow hes quite skilled and good at this game if hes wearing that..." I donno I might be wrong on that quote donno yet who knows I might get a response.
It seems to me that people look to show off there cool armor/weapons/spells, but people cant even really do that anymore when you can just buy the stuff online. Yes people get banned from it but theres ALOT OF GOLD/ISK SELLING WEBSITES out there so I truly doubt that blizz, or squaresoft, or CCP or whoever are massively banning peeps for this paying cash for this stuff. Sure they might ban a few for public relations purposes but theres still alot of money out there being made off of NA mmo's. How much is being made is something that I wouldn't mind knowing.
There really needs to be a legal decision concerning selling MMO games that have already been bought. Example.....
Whats the difference between selling my guild wars account with the original CD's to someone else and selling my used lawn mower. The only difference I guess would be what characters were on the account and how far they've progressed to begin with. But than again.... lets go back to the lawn mower....
If I sell my used lawn mower after putting in a new blade on it or something I'm pretty sure its legal to sell it to someone. I dont have to ask the xyz mower company if its ok to sell there MODIFIED product to someone else.
The only difference between the guild wars scenario and the mower scenario is the blade is physical and the characters on the guild wars servers are not.
Also it seems to me that if you buy a game from an MMO company all the things that you get/acquire in the game is NOT CONSIDERED YOURS EVER. Now I dont know about you but I'm pretty sure that doesn't sit very well with most of you out there. I DO CONSIDER that sword, shield etc. mine and no one elses. Unfortunately because I believe most people think this way then that is the reason why people can just pay cash for stuff online.
I donno... I have to go but i'll post more about this later on cuz this buying gold+items stuff fascinates me...like why do people do it anyways... meh..... see you later folks
Is there an MMO that out there that isn't affected by Xao Ping Wang and their money grubbing macro bots? http://wow.stratics.com/content/features/editorials/mf/ Just say no to ingame money/mob farming.... the site says it all
Whats the difference selling my guild wars account with the original CD's to someone else and selling my used lawn mower. The only difference I guess would be what characters were on the account and how far they've progressed to begin with. But than again.... lets go back to the lawn mower....
If I sell my used lawn mower after putting in a new blade on it or something I'm pretty sure its legal to sell it to someone. I dont have to ask the xyz mower company if its ok to sell there MODIFIED product to someone else.
The only difference between the guild wars scenario and the mower scenario is the blade is physical and the characters on the guild wars servers are not.
I donno... I have to go but i'll post more about this later on cuz this buying gold+items stuff fascinates me
The difference between selling your lawnmower and an online game account is pretty striking. A used lawnmower does not come with special abilties most people only get by mowing with their own mower for months. The buyer of the lawnmower can read the manual and use the mower with a level of skill that results in a mowed lawn. A GW account buyer gets a pre-leveled character that has skills which others work for. A GW account buyer can read the manual for days and still log on a complete nit-wit and ruin game play for avid gamers.
Whats the difference between me spending months and months of time putting addons to my used mower and selling it..... or spending months and months of time making GW characters........
The only difference between the months of time adding stuff to the lawn mower to make it better and characters in a GW account is that the mower is physical but the GW characters arent thats all.
Is there an MMO that out there that isn't affected by Xao Ping Wang and their money grubbing macro bots? http://wow.stratics.com/content/features/editorials/mf/ Just say no to ingame money/mob farming.... the site says it all
Whats the difference between me spending months and months of time putting addons to my used mower and selling it..... or spending months and months of time making GW characters........
The only difference between the months of time adding stuff to the lawn mower to make it better and characters in a GW account is that the mower is physical but the GW characters arent thats all.
The difference is that your GW characters are part of a community. The other people on the block don't really care if you have a super duper lawn mower. The people you fight next to in GW care if you've purchased your character and suck.
Let's say that the person who bought your ultra-awesome lawn mower had to use that lawn mower on a neighbor's yard in order to use the lawn mower at all. On the lawn where plants the neighbor didn't want mowed down, and also her children were playing in the backyard.
One of the features of your lawnmower is a super booster that mows the lawn at 75mph. When you used the lawnmower, you could handle cutting the grass at that speed, and you made sure no kids were in the way.
When the new mower user saddles up and hits the buttons randomly (much like a new GW user) he accidently hits the super booster and mows the neighbor's kids into pulp.
Whats the difference between me spending months and months of time putting addons to my used mower and selling it..... or spending months and months of time making GW characters........
The only difference between the months of time adding stuff to the lawn mower to make it better and characters in a GW account is that the mower is physical but the GW characters arent thats all.
The difference is that your GW characters are part of a community. The other people on the block don't really care if you have a super duper lawn mower. The people you fight next to in GW care if you've purchased your character and suck. The fatal assumption you are making is that purchasing an account means you suck. There's not a correlation between buying an account and sucking. There's lots of people who buy accounts and suck. Lots of people who buy accounts and don't suck. There's also lots of people who just buy the game and suck.
I'd much prefer someone who bought their account and knows how to play versus someone who leveled their account and sucks....
That your concerned because unskilled people get uber weapons and high levels or something. What are you jealous because someone can get something in a MMO without having to earn it. hmmm...... well if thats the case I can certainly understand that. Again from what my sig kinda tells ya... IM NOT A FAN OF GOLD SELLING/ACCOUNT SELLING. However I am trying to understand it more.
How is the community of an MMO get degraded just because some unskilled dudes/childs in uber gear says this in the local chat.....
Or maybe you've been duped into thinking that uber gear, titles and high levels are equivalent to skill or competence. So when you invite some dude who's got all that cool gear he's level XX you think that he/she is somewhat competent. Maybe thats it but I'm tellin ya retro.......
UBER GEAR AND HIGHLEVEL ACCOUNTS DON'T EQUATE TO SKILL NOR COMPETENCE.
Nor should it ever PERIOD. The time that it does is the time that you get people acually buying items and gold fo.....um... wait....
ITS ALREADY HAPPENED AND WILL CONTINUE HAPPENING until people see past gear, levels, and titles.
Is there an MMO that out there that isn't affected by Xao Ping Wang and their money grubbing macro bots? http://wow.stratics.com/content/features/editorials/mf/ Just say no to ingame money/mob farming.... the site says it all
Whats the difference between me spending months and months of time putting addons to my used mower and selling it..... or spending months and months of time making GW characters........
The only difference between the months of time adding stuff to the lawn mower to make it better and characters in a GW account is that the mower is physical but the GW characters arent thats all.
The difference is that your GW characters are part of a community. The other people on the block don't really care if you have a super duper lawn mower. The people you fight next to in GW care if you've purchased your character and suck. The fatal assumption you are making is that purchasing an account means you suck. There's not a correlation between buying an account and sucking. There's lots of people who buy accounts and suck. Lots of people who buy accounts and don't suck. There's also lots of people who just buy the game and suck.
I'd much prefer someone who bought their account and knows how to play versus someone who leveled their account and sucks.... There is no "fatal assumption". I am making a generalization based on my experiences. I've never played with someone who admittedly bought their account and is a positive influence to a group. Sure there are people who play from 0 - 1000 and are totally inept, but I'd rather they fail in that repsect than give them the opportunity to buy a fully fleshed out character.
Also, the only game I've played which allows players who totally suck to achieve is World of Warcraft. WoW's mechanics are so simplistic that even those who would normally become stuck at level 20 in games like EQ are allowed to level up. The experiences that are associated with Ebay are all EQ, also. WoW players are so numerous that it is harder to identify someone who is truly horrible and become negatively effected.
Regardless of the amount of players who are great gamers after purchasing account they will never have my respect. If you want to play a game, earn the accomplishments. If you want legal account buying it should be on its own server and have special rules which pop up a credit card option in the AH. Otherwise, stick to cheating at Tony Hawk.
As you wish... Fatal assumption, generalization... all the same. The people who are good who bought accounts probably dont' go around broadcasting the fact that the bought the account because it doesn't matter to them.
And its not like any MMORPG takes alot of skill. Some are more skillful than others, but if you suck and put alot of time into it then you will level to max.
That your concerned because unskilled people get uber weapons and high levels or something. What are you jealous because someone can get something in a MMO without having to earn it. hmmm...... well if thats the case I can certainly understand that. Again from what my sig kinda tells ya... IM NOT A FAN OF GOLD SELLING/ACCOUNT SELLING. However I am trying to understand it more.
How is the community of an MMO get degraded just because some unskilled dudes/childs in uber gear says this in the local chat.....
Or maybe you've been duped into thinking that uber gear, titles and high levels are equivalent to skill or competence. So when you invite some dude who's got all that cool gear he's level XX you think that he/she is somewhat competent. Maybe thats it but I'm tellin ya retro.......
UBER GEAR AND HIGHLEVEL ACCOUNTS DON'T EQUATE TO SKILL NOR COMPETENCE.
Nor should it ever PERIOD. The time that it does is the time that you get people acually buying items and gold fo.....um... wait....
ITS ALREADY HAPPENED AND WILL CONTINUE HAPPENING until people see past gear, levels, and titles.
I think you are missing the point.
I am not jealous of someone who spends their paycheck to buy an item I can get with my time. Just like I'm not impressed with people who drive nice cars they didn't help put together, people who have nice computer Dell made, or wear designer clothes. Purchasing power does not equal worth to me, hard work and success via effort does.
The community is degraded because the person can't play, not because the person is a jerk. I know a lot of jerks in game. A lot of jerks in game are very good.
Raiding does take skill for those who are willing to try out dungeons before gear passes their difficulty level. When I see someone in epix I do tend to associate that with time spent. I do not tend to associate that with skill because of ebaying and people who are tag alongs. Real respect comes from playing with someone and finding out they go above and beyond the normal.
I do think gear should = experience and competence. In a lot of games it does. WoW is a bad bad bad example. World of Warcraft awards epic gear to those willing to do poorly for a long period of time (PvP rewards), or people just willing to sign up in a raiding guild and play a pointless DPS role.
It doesn't sound like you are trying to understand gold selling. I am on a definite side, and I have points which many others feel. People don't want others succeeding at the game via means the game didn't have the intention of providing. The USER AGREEMENT even has specific passages about the game not being for resale.
Now if you want to understand my side, don't bring up emotions like jealousy. I am not inspecting people in Orgrimmar or The Nexus and complaining to my friends how much I want their gear. I just don't want to group with someone who doesn't respect the design and fuction of an MMO.
And yes, I know that gold selling will be around as long as people are willing to sell their accounts, regardless of what contract is goes against. Yes, I know people who are good at their class never experienced it 1 - 69. That doesn't mean I want it, respect it, or let it go on in my guild or groups if I can help it.
Well, you were both right and wrong several times in your post, so I'm going to respond to each point individually.
Originally posted by hornedtoad
There is absolutely no way that how I sold my account could be enforcable or is against the law. I bought the game, created an account based on the cdkey that physically came with the game, and then sold the game(with the associated account) to someone and mailed them all aspects of the game: book, box, cds, cdkey, etc.
You're absolutely right, it is not against the LAW. It's just against the USER AGREEMENT. And according to the User Agreement, they have a right to ban the account. They also have the right to swipe items from you, suspend the account, remove specific characters, or whatever else tickles their fancy. "What? How, why?" Thing is, when you clicked, "I Agree," you agreed that Blizzard, not you, owns the account. You're just using it. In fact, if you pick apart most MMO User Agreements, you'll find the same thing. Vanguard recently suspended people merely for having more gold on their character than they expected, on the "suspicion" that they were gold farmers. They had no proof. And they were perfectly in thier right to do it.
The only reason that most devs don't mess with people like that is because it's bad for business. Usually they only strike players down when they can prove you broke the rules.
If you prefer the technical argument, I sold my box of WoW with the associated account. Because I bought the box, it is my right to sell it. And the way companies wrap up account creation with the physical purchase of the game then the account goes with the box.
Sorry, but that's not correct. Your boxed copy of the client, and your account, are two separate pieces of property. And as I've already said, the account is the property of Blizzard. You're only paying a subscription fee to use it. Think of it as a TV and your Cable. You need a TV (boxed copy of the game) in order to watch television shows, but merely buying a TV isn't enough. You subscribe to your local Cable (the game account), but you don't own the feed.
Your boxed copy came with a free month of play, but you created an account when you logged on. If someone else bought your boxed copy and tried to create a fresh account with it, they'd find that they didn't get a month free service. Because the Clinet and the account are two different things.
Blizzard does try to forbid account selling. But they can't forbid selling the actual game that you bought and the associated account. That's part of your rights with buying the physical game. It would be alot hazier if it was entirely electronic and had no physical purchase.
Again, wrong. But I already covered that above.
As for profiting from a service. It depends on how you look at it I guess. I paid them alot of money over the time I paid for the right to play on their servers. And that was fun and enjoyable. However selling my game and account to someone else does not hurt Blizzard. The account is still alive and they are still making money off it. I don't see the problem with it but I understand that some people don't like it. I look at it as everyone is happy. I'm happy since I got money to go try out a new MMORPG or game or something, the buyer is happy since he wanted the account, and Blizzard is happy because the account is still active.
Which is where we fundamentally disagree. You believe it's ok because: 1) you can get away with it, and; 2) because everyone wins. But in my view, neither of those reasons matter. It is Blizzard's choice to sacrifice some potential subscriptions by forbiding account trading. Not yours. You're basically thumbing your nose at Blizzard and yelling, "Nyah, nyah! You can't catch me!" And you get away scott free, because you weren't planning on playing anymore. It's just being disrespectful to authority, picking and choosing which rules you'll obey AFTER agreeing to the rules in the first place. That doesn't make you right, it just makes you opportunistic.
But I'll say it one last time so people don't misunderstand me. If a game company says they allow Account trading, then I have no problem with it, beyond thinking that they buyers will suck at playing the character. In such a situation, I wouldn't really care if you sold your old account.
Seriously. It's Are'el. This forum doesn't allow apostrophes in usernames.
Comments
Actually, I support players' rights to "cheat" in single player games, because they're single player games. If they want to start Oblivion with a character whose skills are all set to 100, I could care less. Doesn't affect my playing of Oblivion in any way. Heck, I'll occasionally cheat in my second playerthrough of a game. Been doing so all the way back to the original Fallout, where you could download a fan-made program to set all your stats to 10.
Also, don't tell others to "STFU" about thier opinions. They have a right to disagree. You'll notice that above, I had no problem with Kyriakos voicing a different opinion. It was only when he insulted the rest of us that I felt the need to respond.
Seriously.
It's Are'el. This forum doesn't allow apostrophes in usernames.
You can't be serious, can you?
I am not envious of someone with a higher lvl character. Or more gold. Because that usually does not happen to me. I am disabled and cannot work at the moment. I can play 24 hours a day if I want. Believe me I am not envious of someone to lazy or to busy to actually play a game they bought.
If envy is the best reason you can think of for us to voice concerns about the issue, then I feel sorry for your closed minded view of others.
But you will probably say I am just envious of you brilliant take on our psychology.
Thats fine, what ever helps you sleep at night.
Tyfreaky,
Your post pretty much has the rationale of why many people are against buying/selling/trading accounts/gold. You have lots of time to play the game and you want that time that you put in to translate into a better character, more gold, or otherwise special. That's fine, that's your choice and ability to play the game that much. Lots of other people don't have the time to do so, so how does buying/selling/trading accounts really hurt you. Yes it means that some people who don't have as much time as you can spend money for an equivalent account without putting as much time into it. But other than that, how does it hurt you? It's a game, let other people play how they wish. Its not like because someone bought an account or bought gold that your character isn't any good anymore.
Personally I'm all for buying/selling trading accounts. Typically I'll level one character to max and play with him. But sometimes I want to switch characters because I got bored and don't have the time or drive to level another character to max again. So why not trade and start with a character at max which is where alot of the fun aspects of the game are. Or when I tire of a game and I'm done with it, I sell the game and my character to make some of my money back from playing it to move onto new games to play and so that someone else can enjoy the character I greatly enjoyed. One of the accounts I sold was to a guy in the navy who wanted to play a high level warrior while he was abroad. He didn't have much time to play so he bought my account and was able to enjoy the fun aspects of the game. It was a win/win/win situation. Win for me, the guy, and the development company as it kept the account alive.
Thoughts?
Ok maybe I'm against gold because it screws with the economy
That's another point of arguement. Is it right to profit from these games, when the User Agreement expressly forbids it? Now, not all User Agreements declare selling accounts as against the rules. If the devs don't mind, then I don't mind. Well, not as much, anyway.
But I'm pretty certain that Blizzard forbids account selling. If that's true, then I think earning a profit, no matter what the good intentions (selling to a military soldier), is still wrong. If you wanted to help someone out, then just giving the account to them would have been less objectionable.
Aside from the fact that the transaction breaks the Agreement you signed (or, clicked "I Agree"), there's also the question of whether you should get your money back. You pay for a service, you use the service, you (supposedly) enjoy the service. Profiting from it afterwards just doesn't seem right. I can get tv cable service, but I'm not allowed to start selling taped copies of HBO movies out of my van for profit. I can go to a theme park and have fun for half a day, but I'm not allowed to go out the gate and sell my day pass to someone else for the rest of the day.
I guess my point is, if the game company declares rules against account selling, then it doesn't matter what good comes out of it. It's still wrong. I have no idea what Mythic will do in regards to WAR, but people that play their game should abide by whatever rules they Agree to.
Seriously.
It's Are'el. This forum doesn't allow apostrophes in usernames.
I would be willing to accept different paths for advancement if there was a more acceptable way to do so/a way to ID these people. I would never group with a charactert who bought their levels, nor would I sell anything to someone who bought their gold.
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
If you prefer the technical argument, I sold my box of WoW with the associated account. Because I bought the box, it is my right to sell it. And the way companies wrap up account creation with the physical purchase of the game then the account goes with the box.
Blizzard does try to forbid account selling. But they can't forbid selling the actual game that you bought and the associated account. That's part of your rights with buying the physical game. It would be alot hazier if it was entirely electronic and had no physical purchase.
As for profiting from a service. It depends on how you look at it I guess. I paid them alot of money over the time I paid for the right to play on their servers. And that was fun and enjoyable. However selling my game and account to someone else does not hurt Blizzard. The account is still alive and they are still making money off it. I don't see the problem with it but I understand that some people don't like it. I look at it as everyone is happy. I'm happy since I got money to go try out a new MMORPG or game or something, the buyer is happy since he wanted the account, and Blizzard is happy because the account is still active.
I would be willing to accept different paths for advancement if there was a more acceptable way to do so/a way to ID these people. I would never group with a charactert who bought their levels, nor would I sell anything to someone who bought their gold.
Sure why not. And why would you never group with someone who traded/bought accounts? What's the reasoning?
If you prefer the technical argument, I sold my box of WoW with the associated account. Because I bought the box, it is my right to sell it. And the way companies wrap up account creation with the physical purchase of the game then the account goes with the box.
Blizzard does try to forbid account selling. But they can't forbid selling the actual game that you bought and the associated account. That's part of your rights with buying the physical game. It would be alot hazier if it was entirely electronic and had no physical purchase.
As for profiting from a service. It depends on how you look at it I guess. I paid them alot of money over the time I paid for the right to play on their servers. And that was fun and enjoyable. However selling my game and account to someone else does not hurt Blizzard. The account is still alive and they are still making money off it. I don't see the problem with it but I understand that some people don't like it. I look at it as everyone is happy. I'm happy since I got money to go try out a new MMORPG or game or something, the buyer is happy since he wanted the account, and Blizzard is happy because the account is still active.
Actually, you are correct in one respect, selling your account is not against the law. It is, however, against the EULA and it is entirely within Blizzard's right to ban the account should they chose to do so. And they have actually banned high profile accounts that have been brought to their attention. Its just hard for them to track an account like yours.
Oh well, I believe the WAR people have stated... Account selling...acceptable, for the reasons you stated...keeps money flowing in to Mythic, Gold/Item selling by farmers, bad... because it can drive players away from the game....
But...Mythic never showed any sort of resolve in banning farmers in DAOC... lets see if they can do better in WAR
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I would be willing to accept different paths for advancement if there was a more acceptable way to do so/a way to ID these people. I would never group with a charactert who bought their levels, nor would I sell anything to someone who bought their gold.
Sure why not. And why would you never group with someone who traded/bought accounts? What's the reasoning?
In my experience the 1 - 70 (or whatever skill/level system) process is vital to learning the ins and outs of a specific character. The leveling system (in my opinion) is not just a way to get people to continue playing, but also a learning process. Even if you've leveled a _____ to 70, every other class is still a new experience. Players who bypass this process, in my opinion, are not as strong. If a player ebays they are telling me they would rather just toy around with a high level toon than actually learn their class enough to be a benefit to a group.
Also, buying items, in my opinion, totally goes against the Risk vs. Reward aspect of video games. I don't mind cheating in a one player game because the cheater's experience does not directly effect mine. When a player buys an item with real money they influence the market in a negative way. Also, when you buy an item with real money you are also missing out on vital opportunities to learn your class, and the dungeons or other content in the game.
Bottom line, a player who buys levels/skills/gold/items is missing out on the true essence of the game, hurting the economy, and therefore has no place next to me in battle.
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
If you prefer the technical argument, I sold my box of WoW with the associated account. Because I bought the box, it is my right to sell it. And the way companies wrap up account creation with the physical purchase of the game then the account goes with the box.
Blizzard does try to forbid account selling. But they can't forbid selling the actual game that you bought and the associated account. That's part of your rights with buying the physical game. It would be alot hazier if it was entirely electronic and had no physical purchase.
As for profiting from a service. It depends on how you look at it I guess. I paid them alot of money over the time I paid for the right to play on their servers. And that was fun and enjoyable. However selling my game and account to someone else does not hurt Blizzard. The account is still alive and they are still making money off it. I don't see the problem with it but I understand that some people don't like it. I look at it as everyone is happy. I'm happy since I got money to go try out a new MMORPG or game or something, the buyer is happy since he wanted the account, and Blizzard is happy because the account is still active.
Actually, you are correct in one respect, selling your account is not against the law. It is, however, against the EULA and it is entirely within Blizzard's right to ban the account should they chose to do so. And they have actually banned high profile accounts that have been brought to their attention. Its just hard for them to track an account like yours.
Oh well, I believe the WAR people have stated... Account selling...acceptable, for the reasons you stated...keeps money flowing in to Mythic, Gold/Item selling by farmers, bad... because it can drive players away from the game....
But...Mythic never showed any sort of resolve in banning farmers in DAOC... lets see if they can do better in WAR
It will be interesting to see what happens when and if it actually goes to court. I don't think Blizzard could get away with the EULA, since they are basically making it so people who bought the physical copy of their product can't resale it. Will definitely be interesting to see how that effects things when it goes to court...Its blurring the line between gear and skill is the problem. It seems to me that people...... especially young folks see gear and items as a physical manifestation of what having SKILL is. Its like seeing people at the local AH of your favorite MMO and stare at rare pieces of armor on someone and think to themselves.... "wow hes quite skilled and good at this game if hes wearing that..." I donno I might be wrong on that quote donno yet who knows I might get a response.
It seems to me that people look to show off there cool armor/weapons/spells, but people cant even really do that anymore when you can just buy the stuff online. Yes people get banned from it but theres ALOT OF GOLD/ISK SELLING WEBSITES out there so I truly doubt that blizz, or squaresoft, or CCP or whoever are massively banning peeps for this paying cash for this stuff. Sure they might ban a few for public relations purposes but theres still alot of money out there being made off of NA mmo's. How much is being made is something that I wouldn't mind knowing.
There really needs to be a legal decision concerning selling MMO games that have already been bought. Example.....
Whats the difference between selling my guild wars account with the original CD's to someone else and selling my used lawn mower. The only difference I guess would be what characters were on the account and how far they've progressed to begin with. But than again.... lets go back to the lawn mower....
If I sell my used lawn mower after putting in a new blade on it or something I'm pretty sure its legal to sell it to someone. I dont have to ask the xyz mower company if its ok to sell there MODIFIED product to someone else.
The only difference between the guild wars scenario and the mower scenario is the blade is physical and the characters on the guild wars servers are not.
Also it seems to me that if you buy a game from an MMO company all the things that you get/acquire in the game is NOT CONSIDERED YOURS EVER. Now I dont know about you but I'm pretty sure that doesn't sit very well with most of you out there. I DO CONSIDER that sword, shield etc. mine and no one elses. Unfortunately because I believe most people think this way then that is the reason why people can just pay cash for stuff online.
I donno... I have to go but i'll post more about this later on cuz this buying gold+items stuff fascinates me...like why do people do it anyways... meh..... see you later folks
Is there an MMO that out there that isn't affected by Xao Ping Wang and their money grubbing macro bots?
http://wow.stratics.com/content/features/editorials/mf/
Just say no to ingame money/mob farming.... the site says it all
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
Whats the difference between me spending months and months of time putting addons to my used mower and selling it..... or spending months and months of time making GW characters........
The only difference between the months of time adding stuff to the lawn mower to make it better and characters in a GW account is that the mower is physical but the GW characters arent thats all.
Is there an MMO that out there that isn't affected by Xao Ping Wang and their money grubbing macro bots?
http://wow.stratics.com/content/features/editorials/mf/
Just say no to ingame money/mob farming.... the site says it all
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
Let's say that the person who bought your ultra-awesome lawn mower had to use that lawn mower on a neighbor's yard in order to use the lawn mower at all. On the lawn where plants the neighbor didn't want mowed down, and also her children were playing in the backyard.
One of the features of your lawnmower is a super booster that mows the lawn at 75mph. When you used the lawnmower, you could handle cutting the grass at that speed, and you made sure no kids were in the way.
When the new mower user saddles up and hits the buttons randomly (much like a new GW user) he accidently hits the super booster and mows the neighbor's kids into pulp.
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
I'd much prefer someone who bought their account and knows how to play versus someone who leveled their account and sucks....
That your concerned because unskilled people get uber weapons and high levels or something. What are you jealous because someone can get something in a MMO without having to earn it. hmmm...... well if thats the case I can certainly understand that. Again from what my sig kinda tells ya... IM NOT A FAN OF GOLD SELLING/ACCOUNT SELLING. However I am trying to understand it more.
How is the community of an MMO get degraded just because some unskilled dudes/childs in uber gear says this in the local chat.....
"OMFGCHOOWANTMYSORD DONTCHA AHAHHAAHAHAHAH Loozer"
Its not like you can't ignore put them on ignore.
Or maybe you've been duped into thinking that uber gear, titles and high levels are equivalent to skill or competence. So when you invite some dude who's got all that cool gear he's level XX you think that he/she is somewhat competent. Maybe thats it but I'm tellin ya retro.......
UBER GEAR AND HIGHLEVEL ACCOUNTS DON'T EQUATE TO SKILL NOR COMPETENCE.
Nor should it ever PERIOD. The time that it does is the time that you get people acually buying items and gold fo.....um... wait....
ITS ALREADY HAPPENED AND WILL CONTINUE HAPPENING until people see past gear, levels, and titles.
Is there an MMO that out there that isn't affected by Xao Ping Wang and their money grubbing macro bots?
http://wow.stratics.com/content/features/editorials/mf/
Just say no to ingame money/mob farming.... the site says it all
I'd much prefer someone who bought their account and knows how to play versus someone who leveled their account and sucks.... There is no "fatal assumption". I am making a generalization based on my experiences. I've never played with someone who admittedly bought their account and is a positive influence to a group. Sure there are people who play from 0 - 1000 and are totally inept, but I'd rather they fail in that repsect than give them the opportunity to buy a fully fleshed out character.
Also, the only game I've played which allows players who totally suck to achieve is World of Warcraft. WoW's mechanics are so simplistic that even those who would normally become stuck at level 20 in games like EQ are allowed to level up. The experiences that are associated with Ebay are all EQ, also. WoW players are so numerous that it is harder to identify someone who is truly horrible and become negatively effected.
Regardless of the amount of players who are great gamers after purchasing account they will never have my respect. If you want to play a game, earn the accomplishments. If you want legal account buying it should be on its own server and have special rules which pop up a credit card option in the AH. Otherwise, stick to cheating at Tony Hawk.
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
And its not like any MMORPG takes alot of skill. Some are more skillful than others, but if you suck and put alot of time into it then you will level to max.
I am not jealous of someone who spends their paycheck to buy an item I can get with my time. Just like I'm not impressed with people who drive nice cars they didn't help put together, people who have nice computer Dell made, or wear designer clothes. Purchasing power does not equal worth to me, hard work and success via effort does.
The community is degraded because the person can't play, not because the person is a jerk. I know a lot of jerks in game. A lot of jerks in game are very good.
Raiding does take skill for those who are willing to try out dungeons before gear passes their difficulty level. When I see someone in epix I do tend to associate that with time spent. I do not tend to associate that with skill because of ebaying and people who are tag alongs. Real respect comes from playing with someone and finding out they go above and beyond the normal.
I do think gear should = experience and competence. In a lot of games it does. WoW is a bad bad bad example. World of Warcraft awards epic gear to those willing to do poorly for a long period of time (PvP rewards), or people just willing to sign up in a raiding guild and play a pointless DPS role.
It doesn't sound like you are trying to understand gold selling. I am on a definite side, and I have points which many others feel. People don't want others succeeding at the game via means the game didn't have the intention of providing. The USER AGREEMENT even has specific passages about the game not being for resale.
Now if you want to understand my side, don't bring up emotions like jealousy. I am not inspecting people in Orgrimmar or The Nexus and complaining to my friends how much I want their gear. I just don't want to group with someone who doesn't respect the design and fuction of an MMO.
And yes, I know that gold selling will be around as long as people are willing to sell their accounts, regardless of what contract is goes against. Yes, I know people who are good at their class never experienced it 1 - 69. That doesn't mean I want it, respect it, or let it go on in my guild or groups if I can help it.
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
Well, you were both right and wrong several times in your post, so I'm going to respond to each point individually.
Seriously.
It's Are'el. This forum doesn't allow apostrophes in usernames.