As i mentioned before and as a comment on the guy asking what the hell happened to the vision.I think WOW happened....Brad did have a vision....but in the end it's the company behind him who has the final word.
Yes WoW did happen and sadly, Brad had to feel he had to take many ideas from WoW and incorporate it in his game. Things like te UI, Quest set up, Training of skills set up, the little timpany drum roll whenever you completed the quest all came from wow.
Just wished he did that on his own too...but back to topic, you are right. The most DAMNING thing a MMO developer could ever do to his game is take what made WoW successful and try to incorporate it into their game. It always fail. Always. SWG did it and they ...well...did a wonderful job of destroying a MMO. Others tried and failed too. Brad should have just learned from that and leave WoW the hell alone and just come up with your own ideas of everything.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
Ideas and visions are great. However I don't think they really mean anything in the end if you don't take into account the reality you are trying to step into. The more I read and look at things the more it seems like either Brad and crew saw the current state of MMORPG industry and how it changed (for the better in a lot of cases since they helped make EQ1) and decided to simply go against it in a "I know better" arrogant sort of way. Or they simply are so far out of the loop in terms of what "real players" want and expect. Though to a large degree I think he might not have simply accepted that the reason EQ1 was so popular was due to lack of choice and newness during those times. Challenge is good however time sinks, huge grind, long travel, etc aren't challenges.
I'm really curious as to what the hell they were working on in relation to all of that damn money if Vanguard now by all reports is the ending product. It's kinda hard to feel sorry for the man to be honest. Personally it's sad that he and as a result his family and his employees and their families have to deal with all this stress and hate. However professionally I want to a degree say he most likely deserved all that is happening to him.
I hate to see anyone lose a job and for that reason and that reason alone I hope things work out. Being out of work isn't fun or something I wish on anyone. However a lesson needs to be learned or needed to be learnt. Just that it happen the hardway here. Perhaps Brad will grow as a person as a result of this and see bigger pictures and more realities in the future (if he can, wants, or is allowed to do this again)
Wow the OP's post got to me. I never really liked vanguard but now i feel guilty. I really hope it works out for brad in the long run and that he gets some of those ideas he had in-game. It's never good for someone to regret something they accomplished.
Until Brad is willing to refund my purchase of Vanguard, I'm not going to shed any tears. You simply can't be so ignorant to make mistakes like the ones in Vanguard and then expect it to do well. I mean, seriously, after the first 3 years of development, shouldn't it have been obvious that the game wasn't going in the direction it should have been going? Why couldn't they accurately forecast PC power as most companies are able to do with their games? The list goes on an on, and the only word that fits for both Brad and Sigil is:
INCOMPETENCE
And in a market economy, incompetence makes you a loser, and rightfully so. Before you start feeling sorry for Brad, remember that he's not some stupid kid with a dream that has been robbed from him by others. He made a lot of mistakes and only admitted them after they became blatantly obvious to anyone who spent 10 minutes in Vanguard.
But ill let that go for a few and ask a simple question.
Just WHAT awe inspiring visions did poor old "needs your money'" Brad have ?
Was it the "large xp requirements, slow experience aquisition / level" vision ?Just makes me think he took his old "hell level" vision and made it apply to more levels.
Or perhaps it was the "thou must group" vision ? Hardly seems new, every dinosuar dev team out there has been pushing that game hurting concept from the beginning.
So, umm, maybe it was the "must have the best tech available to play, but we will hide that fact with highly questionable minium specs" vision ? Nope, weve all seen that one many times before also.
Soo, i am still left wondering just what awe inspiring vision poor "i need your money" Brad had and managed to convey.
OOOO, perhaps it was the "cater to the uber guilds" vision ?Hmm, no wait, that ones been done to death by innept devs teams also since almost the very beginning.
Running out of possibilities that come to mind here.
Hmm, maybe the "over hype and under perform" thing was this awesome vision of his ? Nah, cant see it.Again its been done to death by most dev teams.
Oh, i get it,it was the release "unfinished,repetitive,bug ridden, crap-thats should have been much better" vision ?Not sure i like that vision enough to praise it.Plus its kinda another mmo tradition thats been done to death .
It wasnt the "be prepared to apolize, spin the truth ,and beg your customers in anyway he thinks he can get away with" vision, was it ?Well at least in this hes at the head of the curve.But somehow i dont think its the "vision" you have in mind.He does say " Im sorry, Im soooo sorry, really i am,but it wasnt really my fault,mistakes were made and i really am sorry" better than most.But than he seems to get ALOT of practice.
Could it have been the old " please ,please, please customers,please continue to send me your money.I know what ive said in the past didnt pan out, BUT im now saying things will get better,if you just GIVE me more of your money " vision ?Nah, again another MMO dev team tradition.Hardly his own personal vision.
Hmmm, well, i guess im still stuck asking "JUST WHAT vision did he have and convey" that was so respect worthy ?
OOOOO, as im rereading my post to check it over ,another more viable "vision" that applys to Brad might be the one.
The "do all of the above and more,vision.That vision in which the dev strives to do as badly by his prospective customers as he possibly can while still getting their money '" vision ?
By george, you might have something there.I cant think of a single dev thats screwed up more MMOs in more ways than good old "i need your money" Brad.
An mmo needs 3 things to succeed in today's market: * voluntary RVR * Complete, free and total character customization * Solo and Group content w/quests If a game has all 3 - you will have a MEGA hit. Everything else: guild housing, crafting, banking, mounts is expected. The bar has risen.
As i mentioned before and as a comment on the guy asking what the hell happened to the vision.I think WOW happened....Brad did have a vision....but in the end it's the company behind him who has the final word.
Yes WoW did happen and sadly, Brad had to feel he had to take many ideas from WoW and incorporate it in his game. Things like te UI, Quest set up, Training of skills set up, the little timpany drum roll whenever you completed the quest all came from wow.
Just wished he did that on his own too...but back to topic, you are right. The most DAMNING thing a MMO developer could ever do to his game is take what made WoW successful and try to incorporate it into their game. It always fail. Always. SWG did it and they ...well...did a wonderful job of destroying a MMO. Others tried and failed too. Brad should have just learned from that and leave WoW the hell alone and just come up with your own ideas of everything.
I mentioned this exact thing on the Beta boards. I wrote a post saying that it was shameful how Sigil was basically copy/pasting the default World of Warcraft UI onto Vanguard. Of course I got the usual responses... "All UIs are similar for MMOs" "Who cares, this game is nothing like WoW". I even got a response from the dev who designed the UI and he said "Some people will love it, some people will call me a WoW-copying hack". Of course an infant could see that the UIs were identical (along with other things).
What's really sad about all of this is that earlier in the beta, Vanguard had a very complicated and unique UI and combat system. The beta testers complained that is wasn't fun enough...so what did Sigil do? They scrapped the entire thing and threw the baby out with the bath water. They started stealing design concepts from World of Warcraft, and even the combat system is nearly identical (The reactions/finishers system in place now is a very dumbed down version of what Vanguard was originally supposed to have).
It was so hilarious to see Vanboys saying the game was nothing like WoW...when it's almost exactly like WoW! If you ignore the graphics and the lack of instancing...this game might as well be WoW! Especially now that they are making even more changes to make the game more tolerable.
I really have very little sympathy for Sigil or Brad McQuaid. I think he's a very idealistic and dedicated game-maker that loves what he does. Unfortunately he has demonstrated that he's an awful project manager. It makes me wonder just how much he really had to do with how successful EQ became.
If it were just one thing that I could point to to say "Vanguard is this way because of this" then I might have more sympathy for Sigil. But it's just one bad decision after another, someone somewhere handled this game badly.
Its amazing what people are suppose to buy into and forget. Sure its been a long time in the making, but the info and communication on the internet have grown. Its a lot harder to pull the wool over peoples eyes and get the sheep to buy into the empty hype then it was before.
35 mill to make Van right? That's a HUGE budget for a game this long in the making. I'm tired of people saying it wasn't big enough. Check out the budgets of the other MMOs currently out and currently being made. You'll find most of them are lower then that.
Wake up people.... Its almost become a standard practice for certain big players in the MMO market - Do as little as possible, make money off of it, and the put all efforts into CYA through marketing, PR, and advertising. Then keep adding to it in small amounts via expansions to keep people spending. Drag it out and keep the sheep calm as the wolf empties their wallets.
How about thinking about something other then empty, emotional, comments backing someone who's taking you for a ride? Hey, if you like that sort of thing.. more power to ya..
Think on this though:
Anyone remember the catered lobster dinner events for the "media"? How about all those cool high end new tech toys like the dual Dell Ultrasharp 2405s. Even better, how about that high end, high profile office that had to be decked out in high end furniture and artwork?
Of that 35m, how much was actually spent on making the game and how much was spent on the fluff of doing big business in style? I think the answer is pretty obvious to anyones who's played the game for any length of time. Cause it sure the heck didn't get spent on the game development itself....
Datawight - Speed is Life, Glory a Necessity, Death a Given!
As i mentioned before and as a comment on the guy asking what the hell happened to the vision.I think WOW happened....Brad did have a vision....but in the end it's the company behind him who has the final word.
Yes WoW did happen and sadly, Brad had to feel he had to take many ideas from WoW and incorporate it in his game. Things like te UI, Quest set up, Training of skills set up, the little timpany drum roll whenever you completed the quest all came from wow.
Just wished he did that on his own too...but back to topic, you are right. The most DAMNING thing a MMO developer could ever do to his game is take what made WoW successful and try to incorporate it into their game. It always fail. Always. SWG did it and they ...well...did a wonderful job of destroying a MMO. Others tried and failed too. Brad should have just learned from that and leave WoW the hell alone and just come up with your own ideas of everything.
I mentioned this exact thing on the Beta boards. I wrote a post saying that it was shameful how Sigil was basically copy/pasting the default World of Warcraft UI onto Vanguard. Of course I got the usual responses... "All UIs are similar for MMOs" "Who cares, this game is nothing like WoW". I even got a response from the dev who designed the UI and he said "Some people will love it, some people will call me a WoW-copying hack". Of course an infant could see that the UIs were identical (along with other things).
What's really sad about all of this is that earlier in the beta, Vanguard had a very complicated and unique UI and combat system. The beta testers complained that is wasn't fun enough...so what did Sigil do? They scrapped the entire thing and threw the baby out with the bath water. They started stealing design concepts from World of Warcraft, and even the combat system is nearly identical (The reactions/finishers system in place now is a very dumbed down version of what Vanguard was originally supposed to have).
It was so hilarious to see Vanboys saying the game was nothing like WoW...when it's almost exactly like WoW! If you ignore the graphics and the lack of instancing...this game might as well be WoW! Especially now that they are making even more changes to make the game more tolerable.
I really have very little sympathy for Sigil or Brad McQuaid. I think he's a very idealistic and dedicated game-maker that loves what he does. Unfortunately he has demonstrated that he's an awful project manager. It makes me wonder just how much he really had to do with how successful EQ became.
If it were just one thing that I could point to to say "Vanguard is this way because of this" then I might have more sympathy for Sigil. But it's just one bad decision after another, someone somewhere handled this game badly.
You see....people say this but out of 10 years of MMOing, I havent seen this UI until WoW.
If you can provide me with some MMOs that uses JUST the UI, I'll rethink my beliefs that Vanguard "borrowed" from WoW. You don't really have to provide me with other MMOs that uses the same Training skill setup that WoW/vanguard uses or even the similiar sound effects. If you can just show me a few MMOS that came out before WoW where the UI are almost identical to WoW then I'll be grateful.
Thanks for any links you can provide.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
Vision without results are worthless, like daydreaming. Brad had grand ole ideas in his head but he failed to implement them. I have a vision too. I have a vision of MMOs being like holodecks in Star Trek. That's an awesome vision but it's worthless because there's no way I can make it come true.
Besides, all developers have a vision of how they want their game to be. The truly great visionaries make their vision come true. Truly great visionaries are progressive. They don't use excuses like they ran out of money or time. They understand the limitations of current technology and adapt their vision to make it work.
Basically Brad daydreamed a lot about the good ole EQ1 days where he was cheered upon and figured he could repeat it with the same tired MMO model. I don't see him as a visionary at all.
He did create a great MMO in EQ1 so he would be considered a visionary.
But we're talking about VG now. In other words you are saying he's a one-hit wonder...like Vanilla Ice...
Businesses and markets are a brutal world. It's a "what have you done for me lately?" mentality. If Brad wants to sit on his laurels with EQ1, then that's fine but clearly he wants more.
I'll even say this. Right now Richard Garrott is making Tabula Rasa. You think he's under a lot of pressure? People are expecting a phenomenol game. I have no clue how it is but I know one thing. It's totally different from Ultima Online. He knew recycling the same old UO gameplay would be a disaster because the MMO world has changed. I'm not saying Richard is a great visionary (and he could very well be) but at least he doesn't repeat the same things over and over again.
EQ had success thanx to many things. Only game of that type on the market. It was a carebear game ... yes, it was, compared to UO, it definetly was.
Brad is average, he was in the right place at the right time, nothing more. My point is clear, look at VG, he's still in that place and time as he was with EQ, but that place and time is no longer the right one.
I agree, but I was just stating that you only have to do something great once for people to call you a visionary.
Same as prophets.
Prophet lesson #1 : say a whole lot of things, keep talking, and keep telling things that have many interpretations. Sooner or later, you will be right.
Just like brad's vision. His time is in the past, while lord brittish's time might yet be in the future.
I agree, but I was just stating that you only have to do something great once for people to call you a visionary.
Okay, I seriously don't understand your point in this. Yes, he did good in EQ1. What's your point? We're discussing VG now and the OP was discussing Brad's vision for VG not EQ1. I really don't understand where you're going with this.
No one is claiming Brad messed up with EQ1. They are claiming he messed up royally with VG. Like I said, if he is satisfied being a one-hit wonder then he's got no problems. And here's the really sad part of all this. People don't remember what you did long ago. They only remember your biggest failure.
For some reason Benedict Arnold comes into my mind. Not sure why. Great general but we don't remember him for that. We remember him as a traitor. Unless VG completely does a 180 and becomes this great MMO, Brad won't be remembered as a visionary. He'll be remembered as the guy who wasted $30+ million and 5 years on an old idea.
Visionaries must be consistent with their results or they risk losing their status. If that's a scary thought, they should quit while they are ahead.
I loved EQ, but I have to wonder. Was it really a "great" game, or has nostalgia clouded our objectivity? It was the only 3D MMO on the market at the time of release. Everything it did was pretty innovative and revolutionary at the time. But did it age well? If we were to load up EQ today, would we still have fun?
A great game requires vision, but it cannot run on vision alone. It needs foresight, exellent programmers, art designers, and maybe the occasional reality check. Did Vanguard have all of these, or just "vision"?
Seriously. It's Are'el. This forum doesn't allow apostrophes in usernames.
I loved EQ, but I have to wonder. Was it really a "great" game, or has nostalgia clouded our objectivity? It was the only 3D MMO on the market at the time of release. Everything it did was pretty innovative and revolutionary at the time. But did it age well? If we were to load up EQ today, would we still have fun? A great game requires vision, but it cannot run on vision alone. It needs foresight, exellent programmers, art designers, and maybe the occasional reality check. Did Vanguard have all of these, or just "vision"?
Well, if you measure EQ1 to today's standards, yeah it's crap. But back then, it was new and different. It was the very first 3D MMO in the market so in that regard it was special and it started the MMO trend so yeah, in that way it was visionary.
You know what I think? EQ1 was new but WoW will be remembered long after EQ1 disappears into the sunset. I know some people hate WoW but no other MMO has directly reached to the mainstream like WoW. Heck, the game is even affecting pop culture (Jeopardy questions about WoW). I think Blizzard was much more visionary than Brad. They wanted to make a mainstream MMO that is accessible to everyone and they made it happen. Critique the game all you want but it changed the gaming world completely. That's vision.
Amazing.Just amazing. But ill let that go for a few and ask a simple question. Just WHAT awe inspiring visions did poor old "needs your money'" Brad have ? Was it the "large xp requirements, slow experience aquisition / level" vision ?Just makes me think he took his old "hell level" vision and made it apply to more levels. Or perhaps it was the "thou must group" vision ? Hardly seems new, every dinosuar dev team out there has been pushing that game hurting concept from the beginning. So, umm, maybe it was the "must have the best tech available to play, but we will hide that fact with highly questionable minium specs" vision ? Nope, weve all seen that one many times before also. Soo, i am still left wondering just what awe inspiring vision poor "i need your money" Brad had and managed to convey. OOOO, perhaps it was the "cater to the uber guilds" vision ?Hmm, no wait, that ones been done to death by innept devs teams also since almost the very beginning. Running out of possibilities that come to mind here. Hmm, maybe the "over hype and under perform" thing was this awesome vision of his ? Nah, cant see it.Again its been done to death by most dev teams. Oh, i get it,it was the release "unfinished,repetitive,bug ridden, crap-thats should have been much better" vision ?Not sure i like that vision enough to praise it.Plus its kinda another mmo tradition thats been done to death . It wasnt the "be prepared to apolize, spin the truth ,and beg your customers in anyway he thinks he can get away with" vision, was it ?Well at least in this hes at the head of the curve.But somehow i dont think its the "vision" you have in mind.He does say " Im sorry, Im soooo sorry, really i am,but it wasnt really my fault,mistakes were made and i really am sorry" better than most.But than he seems to get ALOT of practice. Could it have been the old " please ,please, please customers,please continue to send me your money.I know what ive said in the past didnt pan out, BUT im now saying things will get better,if you just GIVE me more of your money " vision ?Nah, again another MMO dev team tradition.Hardly his own personal vision. Hmmm, well, i guess im still stuck asking "JUST WHAT vision did he have and convey" that was so respect worthy ? OOOOO, as im rereading my post to check it over ,another more viable "vision" that applys to Brad might be the one. The "do all of the above and more,vision.That vision in which the dev strives to do as badly by his prospective customers as he possibly can while still getting their money '" vision ? By george, you might have something there.I cant think of a single dev thats screwed up more MMOs in more ways than good old "i need your money" Brad. Not sure this is praise worthy though.
I have to agree. I don't understand what all this "grand wondrous vision" talk is all about. I played Van for a little while and was profoundly bored, not to mention distressed at the bad performance despite having the recommended specs.
I think pretty much any of us up here could have come up with the great "vision" that is Vanguard.
I loved EQ, but I have to wonder. Was it really a "great" game, or has nostalgia clouded our objectivity? It was the only 3D MMO on the market at the time of release. Everything it did was pretty innovative and revolutionary at the time. But did it age well? If we were to load up EQ today, would we still have fun? A great game requires vision, but it cannot run on vision alone. It needs foresight, exellent programmers, art designers, and maybe the occasional reality check. Did Vanguard have all of these, or just "vision"?
It's only a vision for Brad himself. It's no real vision that's conceptual, you can't define what he means. His "vision" is just an opinion about existing MMORPG.
Vanguard isn't "3rd generation", the guy doesn't have a vision but for himself and for marketing reasons.
There's nothing that can possibly be defined as a "Vision" that is somehow present in Vanguard that hasn't been in other games.
Comments
Yes WoW did happen and sadly, Brad had to feel he had to take many ideas from WoW and incorporate it in his game. Things like te UI, Quest set up, Training of skills set up, the little timpany drum roll whenever you completed the quest all came from wow.
Just wished he did that on his own too...but back to topic, you are right. The most DAMNING thing a MMO developer could ever do to his game is take what made WoW successful and try to incorporate it into their game. It always fail. Always. SWG did it and they ...well...did a wonderful job of destroying a MMO. Others tried and failed too. Brad should have just learned from that and leave WoW the hell alone and just come up with your own ideas of everything.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
I'm really curious as to what the hell they were working on in relation to all of that damn money if Vanguard now by all reports is the ending product. It's kinda hard to feel sorry for the man to be honest. Personally it's sad that he and as a result his family and his employees and their families have to deal with all this stress and hate. However professionally I want to a degree say he most likely deserved all that is happening to him.
I hate to see anyone lose a job and for that reason and that reason alone I hope things work out. Being out of work isn't fun or something I wish on anyone. However a lesson needs to be learned or needed to be learnt. Just that it happen the hardway here. Perhaps Brad will grow as a person as a result of this and see bigger pictures and more realities in the future (if he can, wants, or is allowed to do this again)
Until Brad is willing to refund my purchase of Vanguard, I'm not going to shed any tears. You simply can't be so ignorant to make mistakes like the ones in Vanguard and then expect it to do well. I mean, seriously, after the first 3 years of development, shouldn't it have been obvious that the game wasn't going in the direction it should have been going? Why couldn't they accurately forecast PC power as most companies are able to do with their games? The list goes on an on, and the only word that fits for both Brad and Sigil is:
INCOMPETENCE
And in a market economy, incompetence makes you a loser, and rightfully so. Before you start feeling sorry for Brad, remember that he's not some stupid kid with a dream that has been robbed from him by others. He made a lot of mistakes and only admitted them after they became blatantly obvious to anyone who spent 10 minutes in Vanguard.
An mmo needs 3 things to succeed in today's market:
* voluntary RVR
* Complete, free and total character customization
* Solo and Group content w/quests
If a game has all 3 - you will have a MEGA hit. Everything else: guild housing, crafting, banking, mounts is expected. The bar has risen.
Amazing.Just amazing.
But ill let that go for a few and ask a simple question.
Just WHAT awe inspiring visions did poor old "needs your money'" Brad have ?
Was it the "large xp requirements, slow experience aquisition / level" vision ?Just makes me think he took his old "hell level" vision and made it apply to more levels.
Or perhaps it was the "thou must group" vision ? Hardly seems new, every dinosuar dev team out there has been pushing that game hurting concept from the beginning.
So, umm, maybe it was the "must have the best tech available to play, but we will hide that fact with highly questionable minium specs" vision ? Nope, weve all seen that one many times before also.
Soo, i am still left wondering just what awe inspiring vision poor "i need your money" Brad had and managed to convey.
OOOO, perhaps it was the "cater to the uber guilds" vision ?Hmm, no wait, that ones been done to death by innept devs teams also since almost the very beginning.
Running out of possibilities that come to mind here.
Hmm, maybe the "over hype and under perform" thing was this awesome vision of his ? Nah, cant see it.Again its been done to death by most dev teams.
Oh, i get it,it was the release "unfinished,repetitive,bug ridden, crap-thats should have been much better" vision ?Not sure i like that vision enough to praise it.Plus its kinda another mmo tradition thats been done to death .
It wasnt the "be prepared to apolize, spin the truth ,and beg your customers in anyway he thinks he can get away with" vision, was it ?Well at least in this hes at the head of the curve.But somehow i dont think its the "vision" you have in mind.He does say " Im sorry, Im soooo sorry, really i am,but it wasnt really my fault,mistakes were made and i really am sorry" better than most.But than he seems to get ALOT of practice.
Could it have been the old " please ,please, please customers,please continue to send me your money.I know what ive said in the past didnt pan out, BUT im now saying things will get better,if you just GIVE me more of your money " vision ?Nah, again another MMO dev team tradition.Hardly his own personal vision.
Hmmm, well, i guess im still stuck asking "JUST WHAT vision did he have and convey" that was so respect worthy ?
OOOOO, as im rereading my post to check it over ,another more viable "vision" that applys to Brad might be the one.
The "do all of the above and more,vision.That vision in which the dev strives to do as badly by his prospective customers as he possibly can while still getting their money '" vision ?
By george, you might have something there.I cant think of a single dev thats screwed up more MMOs in more ways than good old "i need your money" Brad.
Not sure this is praise worthy though.
Brad needs to earn my respect and admiration.
Does the Vanguard game for sale right now in stores come anywhere near that orginal "vision"?
I think that's a given. Everything else mentioned was a sub-category of "fun".
Yes WoW did happen and sadly, Brad had to feel he had to take many ideas from WoW and incorporate it in his game. Things like te UI, Quest set up, Training of skills set up, the little timpany drum roll whenever you completed the quest all came from wow.
Just wished he did that on his own too...but back to topic, you are right. The most DAMNING thing a MMO developer could ever do to his game is take what made WoW successful and try to incorporate it into their game. It always fail. Always. SWG did it and they ...well...did a wonderful job of destroying a MMO. Others tried and failed too. Brad should have just learned from that and leave WoW the hell alone and just come up with your own ideas of everything.
I mentioned this exact thing on the Beta boards. I wrote a post saying that it was shameful how Sigil was basically copy/pasting the default World of Warcraft UI onto Vanguard. Of course I got the usual responses... "All UIs are similar for MMOs" "Who cares, this game is nothing like WoW". I even got a response from the dev who designed the UI and he said "Some people will love it, some people will call me a WoW-copying hack". Of course an infant could see that the UIs were identical (along with other things).
What's really sad about all of this is that earlier in the beta, Vanguard had a very complicated and unique UI and combat system. The beta testers complained that is wasn't fun enough...so what did Sigil do? They scrapped the entire thing and threw the baby out with the bath water. They started stealing design concepts from World of Warcraft, and even the combat system is nearly identical (The reactions/finishers system in place now is a very dumbed down version of what Vanguard was originally supposed to have).
It was so hilarious to see Vanboys saying the game was nothing like WoW...when it's almost exactly like WoW! If you ignore the graphics and the lack of instancing...this game might as well be WoW! Especially now that they are making even more changes to make the game more tolerable.
I really have very little sympathy for Sigil or Brad McQuaid. I think he's a very idealistic and dedicated game-maker that loves what he does. Unfortunately he has demonstrated that he's an awful project manager. It makes me wonder just how much he really had to do with how successful EQ became.
If it were just one thing that I could point to to say "Vanguard is this way because of this" then I might have more sympathy for Sigil. But it's just one bad decision after another, someone somewhere handled this game badly.
----------
Life sucks, buy a helmet.
35 mill to make Van right? That's a HUGE budget for a game this long in the making. I'm tired of people saying it wasn't big enough. Check out the budgets of the other MMOs currently out and currently being made. You'll find most of them are lower then that.
Wake up people.... Its almost become a standard practice for certain big players in the MMO market - Do as little as possible, make money off of it, and the put all efforts into CYA through marketing, PR, and advertising. Then keep adding to it in small amounts via expansions to keep people spending. Drag it out and keep the sheep calm as the wolf empties their wallets.
How about thinking about something other then empty, emotional, comments backing someone who's taking you for a ride? Hey, if you like that sort of thing.. more power to ya..
Think on this though:
Anyone remember the catered lobster dinner events for the "media"? How about all those cool high end new tech toys like the dual Dell Ultrasharp 2405s. Even better, how about that high end, high profile office that had to be decked out in high end furniture and artwork?
Of that 35m, how much was actually spent on making the game and how much was spent on the fluff of doing big business in style? I think the answer is pretty obvious to anyones who's played the game for any length of time. Cause it sure the heck didn't get spent on the game development itself....
Datawight - Speed is Life, Glory a Necessity, Death a Given!
Yes WoW did happen and sadly, Brad had to feel he had to take many ideas from WoW and incorporate it in his game. Things like te UI, Quest set up, Training of skills set up, the little timpany drum roll whenever you completed the quest all came from wow.
Just wished he did that on his own too...but back to topic, you are right. The most DAMNING thing a MMO developer could ever do to his game is take what made WoW successful and try to incorporate it into their game. It always fail. Always. SWG did it and they ...well...did a wonderful job of destroying a MMO. Others tried and failed too. Brad should have just learned from that and leave WoW the hell alone and just come up with your own ideas of everything.
I mentioned this exact thing on the Beta boards. I wrote a post saying that it was shameful how Sigil was basically copy/pasting the default World of Warcraft UI onto Vanguard. Of course I got the usual responses... "All UIs are similar for MMOs" "Who cares, this game is nothing like WoW". I even got a response from the dev who designed the UI and he said "Some people will love it, some people will call me a WoW-copying hack". Of course an infant could see that the UIs were identical (along with other things).
What's really sad about all of this is that earlier in the beta, Vanguard had a very complicated and unique UI and combat system. The beta testers complained that is wasn't fun enough...so what did Sigil do? They scrapped the entire thing and threw the baby out with the bath water. They started stealing design concepts from World of Warcraft, and even the combat system is nearly identical (The reactions/finishers system in place now is a very dumbed down version of what Vanguard was originally supposed to have).
It was so hilarious to see Vanboys saying the game was nothing like WoW...when it's almost exactly like WoW! If you ignore the graphics and the lack of instancing...this game might as well be WoW! Especially now that they are making even more changes to make the game more tolerable.
I really have very little sympathy for Sigil or Brad McQuaid. I think he's a very idealistic and dedicated game-maker that loves what he does. Unfortunately he has demonstrated that he's an awful project manager. It makes me wonder just how much he really had to do with how successful EQ became.
If it were just one thing that I could point to to say "Vanguard is this way because of this" then I might have more sympathy for Sigil. But it's just one bad decision after another, someone somewhere handled this game badly.
That UI was used in other games before WoW.
Just out of curiousity; who gave Sigil the 35 million dollars to make this game?
Im sure it wasn't just one...but does anyone know who all gave Sigil these financial resources?
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
You see....people say this but out of 10 years of MMOing, I havent seen this UI until WoW.
If you can provide me with some MMOs that uses JUST the UI, I'll rethink my beliefs that Vanguard "borrowed" from WoW. You don't really have to provide me with other MMOs that uses the same Training skill setup that WoW/vanguard uses or even the similiar sound effects. If you can just show me a few MMOS that came out before WoW where the UI are almost identical to WoW then I'll be grateful.
Thanks for any links you can provide.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
Besides, all developers have a vision of how they want their game to be. The truly great visionaries make their vision come true. Truly great visionaries are progressive. They don't use excuses like they ran out of money or time. They understand the limitations of current technology and adapt their vision to make it work.
Basically Brad daydreamed a lot about the good ole EQ1 days where he was cheered upon and figured he could repeat it with the same tired MMO model. I don't see him as a visionary at all.
Businesses and markets are a brutal world. It's a "what have you done for me lately?" mentality. If Brad wants to sit on his laurels with EQ1, then that's fine but clearly he wants more.
I'll even say this. Right now Richard Garrott is making Tabula Rasa. You think he's under a lot of pressure? People are expecting a phenomenol game. I have no clue how it is but I know one thing. It's totally different from Ultima Online. He knew recycling the same old UO gameplay would be a disaster because the MMO world has changed. I'm not saying Richard is a great visionary (and he could very well be) but at least he doesn't repeat the same things over and over again.
Brad is average, he was in the right place at the right time, nothing more. My point is clear, look at VG, he's still in that place and time as he was with EQ, but that place and time is no longer the right one.
Prophet lesson #1 : say a whole lot of things, keep talking, and keep telling things that have many interpretations. Sooner or later, you will be right.
Just like brad's vision. His time is in the past, while lord brittish's time might yet be in the future.
No one is claiming Brad messed up with EQ1. They are claiming he messed up royally with VG. Like I said, if he is satisfied being a one-hit wonder then he's got no problems. And here's the really sad part of all this. People don't remember what you did long ago. They only remember your biggest failure.
For some reason Benedict Arnold comes into my mind. Not sure why. Great general but we don't remember him for that. We remember him as a traitor. Unless VG completely does a 180 and becomes this great MMO, Brad won't be remembered as a visionary. He'll be remembered as the guy who wasted $30+ million and 5 years on an old idea.
Visionaries must be consistent with their results or they risk losing their status. If that's a scary thought, they should quit while they are ahead.
I loved EQ, but I have to wonder. Was it really a "great" game, or has nostalgia clouded our objectivity? It was the only 3D MMO on the market at the time of release. Everything it did was pretty innovative and revolutionary at the time. But did it age well? If we were to load up EQ today, would we still have fun?
A great game requires vision, but it cannot run on vision alone. It needs foresight, exellent programmers, art designers, and maybe the occasional reality check. Did Vanguard have all of these, or just "vision"?
Seriously.
It's Are'el. This forum doesn't allow apostrophes in usernames.
You know what I think? EQ1 was new but WoW will be remembered long after EQ1 disappears into the sunset. I know some people hate WoW but no other MMO has directly reached to the mainstream like WoW. Heck, the game is even affecting pop culture (Jeopardy questions about WoW). I think Blizzard was much more visionary than Brad. They wanted to make a mainstream MMO that is accessible to everyone and they made it happen. Critique the game all you want but it changed the gaming world completely. That's vision.
I like pie !
I think pretty much any of us up here could have come up with the great "vision" that is Vanguard.
It's only a vision for Brad himself. It's no real vision that's conceptual, you can't define what he means. His "vision" is just an opinion about existing MMORPG.
Vanguard isn't "3rd generation", the guy doesn't have a vision but for himself and for marketing reasons.
There's nothing that can possibly be defined as a "Vision" that is somehow present in Vanguard that hasn't been in other games.
It's ridiculous terminology being misused.