Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Why can't people see beyond the current MMORPG?
tylerthedrui
Member Posts: 304
I recently posted this in the WoW forum, and thought I'd see about thoughts on the subject here instead. Every time I bring up the idea that an MMORPG can possibly not include grinding, people act like I am a madman, or simply commence with flames. They often say that grind is a part of MMORPGs and an MMO by definition MUST include grind. I'm not a symantics freak, and don't mind defining the online game I want to play as something besides an MMORPG, but many of these people believe that all massively multiplayer online games must include grind and will include it until the end of time.
I will stick with my vision that MMOs in the future will be dynamic, changing quickly with ups and downs rather than a slow linear path of character development that never goes backwards. Perhaps guilds or factions will have some sort of progression, but single players will only have a history, not an invincible character that never falls back. Perhaps some other form of this scenario I have outlined will arise, who knows - either way I believe the grind will end. I get flamed for some reason whenever I say that this is a possibility.
To many this idea is 'impossible', just like an MMORPG would be an 'impossible' idea to someone living in the 1950s. People cling very dearly to the idea of having grind in MMOs, and it just makes no sense to me. Perhaps somewhere in my experiences in almost every MMORPG released, I have not learned something that everyone else has? I do rule that possibility out, because I have hope, and because I like to see beyond what things are, and try to see what they can be.
You don't have to agree with me that MMORPGs will go in the non-grind direction, but if you can at least discuss the possibility of it with me I'll be pleased. Change is an integral part of reality. As I said, an MMORPG would be cocky-pop to someone living in the 1950s. It's hard to believe that with the technology present, people can't believe in a game that includes many users in a non-instanced, persistent (meaning the world stays the same after you log off) world that does not include some form of meaningless toil.
I don't want to approach with the 'I see the future and you're too ignorant' approach either. I see what MMORPGs are. I know what they have been. I've seen a glimpse of what the ones in the near future will be. However, I'm not swaying in my belief that this industry will change, like all things, and future MMOs will be very different than the ones we see today just as games are different from the ones ten years ago.
Feel free to discuss this topic with me. Also, some input on upcoming MMORPGs would be great, as well as any input on MMORPGs slated for the more distant future (3+ years, although I haven't heard of any in development).
An interesting point you made is that WoW has 'set the standard' and that new games are likely to clone WoW. For the most part, this is true; there are a great deal of WoW clones already out and many in the making. Fortunately, alot of these games don't get enough players to pay for their development costs and show game-makers that people just aren't interested in WoW clones.
People are absolutely dying for a new WoW, and nobody wants to step up and provide it. I don't even think there are any real innovaitve MMORPG's in the works that are planned to be released this decade (as far as the press has released). Will the WoW clones' failures scare investors away from MMORPG companies? Possibly. If so, that could be the end of MMOs as we know it. WoW could be considered the ultimate MMORPG, to seal off the end of the MMORPG age - perhaps with Blizzard or another company releasing another WoW clone to update the hardware every 5 years. How long would it be before the MMORPG innovators finally arrive? 20 years, 30? Never?
I think our hope hinges on the maturity of the community. How long will gamers continue to endure the endless grind without asking for something different? If they accept trash, as they are, this will continue to be what is produced. If they voice loud enough their hope that game makers will change their MMORPG framework, then we can expect some game maker to step up, build it, and set a new standard. This also requires gamers to be mature enough, and intelligent enough, to be ready to drop the grind and subscribe to the innovative game.
I'm certain game makers are intelligent enough to tell the difference. I can't imagine someone with a degree in programming being too stupid to see the game for what it really is. I have a friend (and another one who did an internship with them) from Irvine who works as a CSR for Blizzard, and he has said before that although he gets limited exposure to the developer's, it's common knowledge that none of the designers or programmers actually play on a normal customer account - they simply make new characters on internal servers during testing, and have no time nor will to play the game on the side.
The question is not 'Do the game makers want MMORPGs to evolve?', the question is 'How can we allow game makers to prove to investors that a genre-breaking MMORPG is worth making?'. When you proclaim that you're tired of MMORPGs as they are, that you are tired of the grind; when you cancel your WoW subscription; when you applaud a new innovative game that is not an MMORPG; when you applaud Darkfall (however unsuccessful they may be) or subscribe to an innovative, yet poorly programmed MMO project; you provide the ammunition game developers need to show investors that the game we dream of is wanted - it just needs someone to make it.
For now, weather the storm and enjoy other aspects of life that don't involve MMORPG gaming, no matter how great a part of life gaming is and how crucial MMORPGs are to gaming. If we don't forget what we're asking for, and ask for it when we realize that we want it - it will appear in the future and the good times will come. Allow the people who are new to this genre of gaming to spend their time playing through the maze we have all played through too many times, until they, too, see what it is we're aiming for. They will join our numbers; there is no reversing the process, until no grind, no carrot on a stick, and no repetitive gameplay is tolerated nor purchased; and there is no where to turn but the direction of fun.
Comments
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
T.R.
Well in the game market that is one of hte hugest risks and most costly to make game companys are not going to bank role alot of new idea's. WOW did not even make there own system they cloned eq and other games befor it. They just changed a few systems setttings and they had a new game. THe game is not all that diffrent from any other MMOG just has a huge group of fans. Really hype has pushed that game in the market and not really by any major new game system. Like spore that is comming out that is a standalone (massive online game) that right now is going to most likly have its own game subject made for it because it is something out side the box of the norm right now.
It will take Huge well known devs liek guys liek will wright and other major devs in the MMOG world to set up that will get hte backing of there dev companys like ea micro to make huge changes. WIll said it there 2 kinds of system's in making games. A) games that have a fan base and make a 2nd game for that like sim's madden so on (i know not MMOG) that have millions of fans so ur more likly to get a game company to bank role that idea then something new.
take change risk and high costs to make a new game that might not sell.
That is the way games to day are. It is not like the days of nes when most this games were being made out of 6-12 man dev teams if that some times lol. We are moved up to 200-1000 person dev teams. MMOG have some of the hugest amount of people working on there games then any other type of game out there. SO it costs alot more talking huge risk. Now keep that in mind when u want to talk about no grinding. Grinding is not in place to move ur toon up. They could make story that once u do so many quests u lv up. They place grinding in there so u do something for hours of ur time. For a hard core gammer u keep him busy for 3 months. Avg player 1 year. IT is called a time sink. Time sinks are what this games are about to keep u playing as long as they can. FOr most grinding up to the max lv is the point of playing. Also most MMO gammers have no life as we know it. They paly 12 hours out of there day playing the game to be the best. They sleep in there parents basement never see the life of day lol.
I would say in 10 years we will see the next HUGE game change for MMOG right now to many games are in the works for 2010 then after that 2015 will be the next huge up in MMOG. So wait and see how hte market changes and the player base push's for new idea's till then ride the coster of the grind up and down.
Well, IMO, we're going to be talking about two different things: MMO's, and MMORPG's. Today, we don't really separate the two....but in the future, I believe they will be different. So, when I talk about the future of these games, I consciously separate them, and that has a big effect on how I see them developing.
MMORPG's are the majority of the games we have now. Most are tolkien-esque, with trolls, orcs, and goblins. You play a single character, with weapons or powers, that, as your life goes on, gets stronger. You add skills, abilities, and strengths, while living a heroic, story worthy life. This is the essence of an MMORPG. Much like the fantasy novels they develop out of, the purpose is to live an exciting life through a somewhat linear story. All the novels and comics you'll reference in making these games have beginnings, middle's, and ends. The character has grown in strength and ability by the last chapter. So, games that mimic this experience will do the same thing. Now, you probably see where I am going with this: these games, the MMORPG's that give the fantasy novel/comic experience, are always going to have some "grind". These stories, by nature, have a "grind". The LotR trilogy isn't "dynamic"...it's the same for everyone who reads it....beginning, middle, end. Superman, Conan, Legolas, Luke Skywalker...they are all character's who start with some ability, but develop strength over time, through experience, until they become great heroes. Any medium in which you attempt to copy this genre will have a linear, story-driven, grind to it. Yes, there may be extras, bells and whistles and neat side tracks, but the core HAS to stay the same.
So, where is the potential for new ideas? In MMO's.
MMO's, with out the rpg, are simply online spaces for a massive amount of players to interact. They won't have a central story...heck, they may not even have real characters. They'll simply be environments in which players can work together, or compete, daily. In this type of environment, there may not be a need for a player to have "skills" in order to compete. They may simple make decisions, which will either work in their favor, or against. There may be no end; simply changes to the environment that results in new decisions having to be made. This genre would include all the open ended worlds, the worlds that have no story except what's happening right now. They have no history, except for the players own memories of what happened last week. They are the "sandbox", the "super-chat room", and the "virtual world", all rolled into one. This is the area that has the potential to get away from the rpg's trappings...the "grind", "balance", "loot", "pve", "pvp", and other terms we now associate with all games. Where will these games come from? Who knows. But the progenitors may be things like The Sims Online, ATitD, and second life. What is their future? Again, who knows? Imagine, perhaps, a SimCity MMO....no races or classes, heck, no characters. No skills. No weapons. Simply competative, or cooperative, city building. Certainly an MMO...not an MMORPG. But, would anyone play?
Because, as you'll notice, the games I mentioned in that list aren't exactly popular games. They don't have high subscriptions, or excessive praise. They are far from great. Is it because they were done poorly? Probably. Is it because they are too far outside the comfort zone of most MMORPG players? Perhaps. Is it because they are ahead of their time? Maybe. We'll have to wait and see.
Really, who knows what the future of this genre will bring. There may be an independent developer out there making the next-gen masterpiece that will destroy all the old terms, and give us new ones. Maybe someone's found the combination that brings it all together.
But, from where I sit, as long as they continue to make MMORPG's in the literary style, and until the genre is broken down into parts, you'll continue to see all the things you don't like in these games....because they are an intergral part of the rpg experience.
The reason why the current MMOS are the way they are is because of World Of Warcraft. It has become so large that it basically has basically changed the direction of the MMO industry. Much like iPod controlling the market for mp3 players. Thing is alot of people are seeking alternative play styles, and I think Guild Wars 2 will provide that alternative.
Yep, you're a madman!
The reason they put the grind in is because they don't have enough faith in their product. What I mean by that is they go for the sure thing, to draw out the game for the money. They are to concerned about the games shortcomings and it's replayability value. They get so wrapped up in that, they forget about just making the game as fun as they can.
Now of course this doesn't go for all, since some want to cater to the grind(this is more of an achiever type game). I'm sure, just like me you understand it, since it is a business after all.
The thing that sucks is, they are doing what is the best for them; not for you!!!
One other thing, I truely believe a game could stand on it's own without these artificial constrants. It really needs to be looked at as making the game fun enough where people will keep rerolling alts, to try out all different types of playstyle. If they focused on this, I believe their game would reap the rewards in the long run.
Sorry but u are so wrong on this. I For one dont want to start over. I play my toons the way i want them to be. I take time and energy making my toon the way it will be for the long run. I dont want to start over and try a diffrent toon. I will make an alt but i wont just start over. I did not spend x amount of weeks/months making a toon to start over. It is like cutting off an arm. U just dont chop it off.There are ways to take away from the grind but not by making peopel start over. SWG tried this and it failed because players dont want to start over.
Yes OP your are a madman. Not because of the game you are saying, I think that would be a very nice game, but because you believe it will get rid of grind.
I've said it before and I will say it again. GRIND DOES NOT EXIST, IT IS ONLY IN OUR HEADS, IT IS OUR PERCEPTION THAT MAKES SOMETHING A GRIND OR NOT. Some people say that repetition is grind, others like it and so it is not a grind. Therefore it is not factual but merely your perception.
Some people say that having zillions of quests and being led by the hand is a grind, others like it and say they enjoy the relaxation. Therefore it does not exist but is merely your perception.
So in conclusion there will still be people who play the game you are describing and walk away saying the grind is intolerable. In the end your post merely illustrates the type of game that you would consider to be grind free.
Venge Sunsoar
Or you have WWII online when you basically are a solider. (not sure but I think they don't have a grind). But I think alot of MMO's will have some kind of grind becouse they try to emulate life in a faster and cooler way and as life itself is a grind they will too.
I don't really have a problem with grind as a part of games as long as it's not the main focus (or even close) and is not linear.
Sorry but u are so wrong on this. I For one dont want to start over. I play my toons the way i want them to be. I take time and energy making my toon the way it will be for the long run. I dont want to start over and try a diffrent toon. I will make an alt but i wont just start over. I did not spend x amount of weeks/months making a toon to start over. It is like cutting off an arm. U just dont chop it off.There are ways to take away from the grind but not by making peopel start over. SWG tried this and it failed because players dont want to start over.
Poser002, what if you didn't have to grind weeks/months making a toon? What if character progression was not the driving motivation for playing the game? What if your characters were complete the first time you log them in and you didn't have to grind to level up or increase skills?
Just imagine for a moment if you can; If there was very little in the way of character progression and all characters fell within a fairly narrow range of power (i.e. they are all the same level) then the ENTIRE game world could be built with characters of that power in mind. The ENTIRE game world could be like one huge dungeon crawl. The ENTIRE game world could be consistant and logical and tweeked and adjusted for characters of that toughness.
Imagine for a moment if developers did this. They would then be free to do anything they want with the game world. It would be far easier for them to focus on making gameplay fun if they didn't have to deal with 50 or 60 different levels of characters and equipment that ranges from crap to godly. The world wouldn't have to broken up into discrete, level appropriate areas. The game world could feel like a world but be fun to play in at the same time.
Why do peoples play and come back?
It is the progression, which you call unfairly "grind". There are tons of other online game, but none offer that progression. Players come back to MMO for the progression...or the grind.
A game doesn't have to get such a progression, but this is THE reason why peoples are playing these games rather than Diablo II or NWN2...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
If there is no progression, there is no interest. I would play a "complete" character once, maybe twice, then I would move on.
The progression is why I play MMOs. Everything else is a side aspect if it come clashing with progression, including challenges.
HPS, Levels...they are popular because it is easy to gauge the progression. They add levels, AAs, EPIC classes/ATs, because the players want more progression, not less. Only a vocal minority (which often raid) doesn't like progression...
There should be "unlimited" progressions available for players, at the same time there should be fixed limits for area of the world. For example, unlimited levels, but everyone in dungeon Z is level 15 or less, automatically delevel in this dungeon, so the casuals can have a goal, an objective, something concrete...while silly peoples like me can go to the sky in levels, always higher. Having a pure unlimited levels is bad for many obvious reasons, too much objectives or too many goals is like not enought, but having soft caps in various zones while having higher caps in other areas, that is interesting, players go where they are naturally called.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Sorry but u are so wrong on this. I For one dont want to start over. I play my toons the way i want them to be. I take time and energy making my toon the way it will be for the long run. I dont want to start over and try a diffrent toon. I will make an alt but i wont just start over. I did not spend x amount of weeks/months making a toon to start over. It is like cutting off an arm. U just dont chop it off.There are ways to take away from the grind but not by making peopel start over. SWG tried this and it failed because players dont want to start over.
Well, then the grind is what you want. You are more of an achiever type, which I mentioned in what I said too.
Also you said working months on a toon, we wouldn't be talking about working months on a toon.(2 months is fine, but more than that is getting to the extreme. Not talking about real played time either.) If I worked months on a char, which I have done in the past, I wouldn't be likely to want to reroll either(that is part of the problem right there). This takes away from replayability of the game. What they do is just keep piling on content to the high end, usually. Which in the end is also something that kills the game, since new people who come into the game, feel like the world is empty.
I don't agree with the SWG comment either. Personally, it was far from being the reason I quit the game. There were many other problems with SWG to just rule that as the problem why players quit. I would guess, just like you when you said what you did, this had nothing or very little impact on why people quit.
The situation is, this is a cruch for the companies that make these games. They need to be more concerned about replayability, instead all of these time constraints(which is what they depend on for the longevity of their game).
***Edited Part***
BTW, if it is so fun grinding, why do people ask for respecs in games? If a game wasn't made with so much grind, you could actually try different paths without having to worry about rerolling. You could be more of what you WANTED and break out the char/toon you NEEDED when the situation arrised.
Maybe, but I don't see which goals atm.
- PvP is not an option for me.
- Racing? My reflexes are subpar...thereby good luck keeping me motivated there.
- RPG and Quests? Well, maybe once, or twice, but my interest is mitigated.
- Social stuff? Not for me again.
- Tradeskills, housing & look? Not for me.
HPS, levels, that is something clear, crystal clear, that I can strive for, and I can complete! Think of a system where you would have zones like Warbug, Siren Call and Bloody Bay (in CoH), where everyone is brought to a precise level in said zone, that work fine with me, and it give objectives to players who doesn't want to level up a lot, but at the same time, I would really love to have access to some zones that allow unlimited levels. I really like the concept where everyone, no matter his level, is at level X in a precise zone, and only in this zone. Peoples can focus on non-leveling stuff for these zones, whatever it is...while me, once I am bored, instead of leaving the game, I go back to unlimited levels areas to focus on what I like.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Anofalye, don't you realize that the supposed increase in power that you get from leveling up is really just an illusion? Surely you must understand that by now.
You go up a level...ok, you have more hit points, you do more damage. But now what? Now you have to go find tougher critters to kill to gain exp. for the next level. The tougher critters have more hit points and do more damage than the ones you were fighting before. So really you haven't gained a damn thing. You got stronger but the things you have to fight got stronger too. It's so utterely pointless.
It gives you the illusion of progress when really you aren't making any progress at all. That's why people call it a treadmill.
But that psychological "hook" of gaining power is a cheap and simple way to motivate players. Even though the "gain" is just an illusion as far as most aspects of day to day gameplay are concerned. The only time it matters is if you go back through lower level areas and massacre low level mobs with a high level character (which isn't something that most people spend a lot of time doing because it's boring) or if you do PvP against lower level players (which is just lame as hell because there isn't any challenge).
The big problem with using this illusory "hook" of power gain to keep people motivated is that when developers do it they have to build their entire game around that principle. The game has to be built to accomodate the treadmill and everything else has to be secondary and cobbled on to the treadmill game.
I'm really sick of people talking about grind grind grind. Every RPG (Not just mmoRPGs) are some kind of grind. Its just not as noticable in offline RPG's because the quests can be designed a lot better. Quests can really have a impact on the game world because your are the only one in it. There aren't 500,00 other players to worry about. I mean think about it. Offline RPG's your STILL grinding lvl's and quests. You may go out and just grind mobs to lvl up and get gold for better equipment or spells (Final Fantasy was NOTORIOUS for this) . Hell, even a online shooter like BF2142 has a grind. You have to kill and perform functions to gain career points to unlock better gear and abilities.
If there is no "grind" then there is a start, a finish but there's nothing in between. I understand that peoples tastes differ, but if people aren't willing to put a bit of effort into games like this then they should look for something with instant gratification like a online shooter. Seriously, what ever happend to the idea that the journey is half the fun?
Example. I recently started playing disc golf again after a few year layoff. I am no where near as good as I used to b which pisses me off. So when I started playing again I decided to throw 100 putts before every round. IE Grinding putts. Is it fun? Yes and no. Its fun because I can see myself improving. Its fun because I know its making me a better disc golfer. Its not fun because I would rather squeeze in another round then throw 100 putts. Bottom line is that if I could just take a pill tomorrow and become the greatest disc golfer the world has ever seen I wouldn't do it. I would miss the journey. I would miss watching myself improve.
See, the thing about it is that fun is subjective. People seem to fail to understand that. I see tons of posts "This game isn't fun" "Is this game fun". Maybe I think its fun and you don't or vice versa. People tend to want to make things black and white when there isnt only the gray area but the 10000000 other colors. I personally hate crafting in MMO's. I don't think its fun. Maybe you love crafting. IE Your fun is different then my fun. Its like people that don't like seafood. Are they stupid because they don't like seafood? No, they just don't enjoy seafood because their tastes are different then someone elses.
-Currently looking forward to FFXIV
-Currently playing EvE and Global Agenda
Skill based progression that allows you to improve skills by using them. This can be a grind if all you do is practice your skills, but if you provide NPC trainers and grant players of a certain level of mastery the ability to train others, The grind becomes significantly reduced. You'll need to limit the number of skills that the player can have maxed out and cause them to slowly loose skills they don't use, a la UO.
Dynamically generated mob stats. This is kind of like what they do in Oblivion. You adjust the stats of mobs according to the stats of the player(s) attacking it. This gives the player access to the entire game world from the jump and allows you to group with anyone regardless of stats. This is difficult to pull off because it requires some serious statistical calculus once you start dealing with parties of players. This system would cause certain mobs to be equally deadly throughout the characters life. BTW, this obviously wouldn't be the way you handled PvP.
Permadeath. I know, I know, you hate this idea even though you've never experienced it. The main reason I include this one is because it will encourage people to truly think about their actions and plan ahead. Since that Dragon is just as deadly when your combat ability is maxed out, you probably aren't going to be able to kill it without a team and a plan of attack. This also keeps PvP from degrading into an atavistic gank fest. I do think that people should be allowed Rez items and spells, you just can't use those items and spells on yourself. This also adds tension to the game making you more likely to be engaged in the game every moment you're playing.
-Currently looking forward to FFXIV
-Currently playing EvE and Global Agenda
what mmo's need to do is worry less about levels and more on the gameplay. to me levels only show how long you play the game and have little importance other than you could take out people lower level than you. they need to make games based on skill. true skill not about who has the better equipment, but about who truly is better. sure better equipment can give you an advantage but if the other person has more skill then you he can win. im talkin about where how you use your skills and abilities is more important than how much skill and abilities you have.
mmo's need to get rid of this hit you then you hit me crap. that is annoying. also the random dmg and if its a hit or not is stupid. they need to start doin stuff like age of conan where you actually are involved in the combat. you actually swing your weapon and pick which way to swing and stuff like that. you actually aim your arrows and shoot. that is what they need to be doin. also they need to get rid of jumping around like rabbits in battles. you know what im talkin about in games like wow and coh&v. it looks stupid. they need to make something like you sidestep and roll and stuff not jumping. that would look cool.
To OP agree, current gameplay in mmorpgs I'd say is lacking. In fact, at some mmorpg conference there was a quip about how mmorpgs can be so popular despite having "poor gameplay". But anyway, DDO/Guild Wars examples of games without grind or no?
The reason you would do some PvE'n is to get better at your skills, combos. You could look at it like defeating a hard boss, like in most of the hack and slash games. The reason you are progressing is to get better and see higher things or atleast that is why I do it. If you haven't gotten use to your combos/skills(twitch, by what I mean) then you can't jump in and take a higher level boss. Personally, I wish they would do away with levels completely. The way you get better is to play and get better at your moves.
I guess your wondering how groups would work? Well scale the mob by how many people are fighting it, either by HP, damage, or whatever. You would still get equipment, but it would only be a visual thing to differentiate yourself from others. Say certain mobs dropped certain things, so you can still show what you've accomplished by getting that cool piece of equipment. This way, development teams can work more on the actual gameplay and designing a larger variety of items.
Also, I believe balancing would be slightly easier.