Anofalye, what if there were other goals to strive towards?
Maybe, but I don't see which goals atm.
- PvP is not an option for me.
- Racing? My reflexes are subpar...thereby good luck keeping me motivated there.
- RPG and Quests? Well, maybe once, or twice, but my interest is mitigated.
- Social stuff? Not for me again.
- Tradeskills, housing & look? Not for me.
HPS, levels, that is something clear, crystal clear, that I can strive for, and I can complete! Think of a system where you would have zones like Warbug, Siren Call and Bloody Bay (in CoH), where everyone is brought to a precise level in said zone, that work fine with me, and it give objectives to players who doesn't want to level up a lot, but at the same time, I would really love to have access to some zones that allow unlimited levels. I really like the concept where everyone, no matter his level, is at level X in a precise zone, and only in this zone. Peoples can focus on non-leveling stuff for these zones, whatever it is...while me, once I am bored, instead of leaving the game, I go back to unlimited levels areas to focus on what I like.
What about an approach which hides stats? Are you fully against that?
What about a system which has multiple approaches towards advancement which would have different results. For example, you might have a fast advancement system for those racing to the end, and for the RP types who don't care about leveling, there is another system in place. You would have tradeoffs for each. The mage who spends his time in a library and lab reading and playing with things could end up with different skills than a hardcore mage who has seen a lot of combat and has had to fight demons, devils and dragons.
To OP agree, current gameplay in mmorpgs I'd say is lacking. In fact, at some mmorpg conference there was a quip about how mmorpgs can be so popular despite having "poor gameplay". But anyway, DDO/Guild Wars examples of games without grind or no?
Both games have an limited grinding. Especialy considering with GW you can create an maxed out charater. I like the system where you get exp while using the skill. Also GW keep giving you the storyline with does not forces you to grind up to an certain level before you can actualy defeat your enemies.
Looking forward to Fallen Earth. Does not seems you need to be grinding to much.
Only down side I see with it is, it is still level based or progression based; as far as I can tell. Plus they still only have one side of the equation, offensive game. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the defense still depends on dice rolls somewhat. I can understand this, because of possible latency issues.
Pretty much what I would like to see is Rakion, with more moves, in an MMOG setting(or at least able to fight bosses).
Rakion and Gunz the Duel are probably the best online twitch based games, when it comes to melee style fighting.
I think the problem with your idea of a "non-grinding" MMO is that one of the major hooks for these types of games is progression. Building your character and watching them progress is what makes a MMO. If a MMO is going to have progression then they are going to have SOME kind of grind, otherwise where is the game? Sure, You could give everyone every ability and item etc as soon as they start, but then whats the point of playing? People will get bored after a few weeks because there is nothing to look forward to.
I'm really sick of people talking about grind grind grind. Every RPG (Not just mmoRPGs) are some kind of grind. Its just not as noticable in offline RPG's because the quests can be designed a lot better.
As I said earlier, IMO, "the grind" is a natural part of RPG's....but not MMO's.
If you separate MMO's from MMORPG's, you'll be taking the first step to ending the grind.
I think the problem with your idea of a "non-grinding" MMO is that one of the major hooks for these types of games is progression. Building your character and watching them progress is what makes a MMO. If a MMO is going to have progression then they are going to have SOME kind of grind, otherwise where is the game? Sure, You could give everyone every ability and item etc as soon as they start, but then whats the point of playing? People will get bored after a few weeks because there is nothing to look forward to.
I'm really sick of people talking about grind grind grind. Every RPG (Not just mmoRPGs) are some kind of grind. Its just not as noticable in offline RPG's because the quests can be designed a lot better.
As I said earlier, IMO, "the grind" is a natural part of RPG's....but not MMO's.
If you separate MMO's from MMORPG's, you'll be taking the first step to ending the grind.
I guess you are right, it is kind of ingrained in us. It has always been grinding in RPG's, that has just been kind of the route it has taken. Even if there was something that was totally different, as far as the grinding, I'm sure it would still have RPG as part of the name. This would help pull in other potential customers, who are fond of the genre.
Imagine, if you will, a city-building MMO (Sim City Online). No characters, no skill trees, no quests, no mobs. Just a giant globe, with a set total population. Let players pick a plot of land, and start building. All the players pull their population from the set total. The competition is to attract more people, and money, to your city, and to keep them there.
Imagine an MMO tycoon game (Theme Park online). Players create their own theme parks, zoos, aquariums, etc... on the same server. Then work to see who can make the most money in a years time. Outside players can view the parks and offer bonuses, or vote on rewards. Players compete to be the best tycoon, have the most exciting location, be a fan favorite, etc...
Imagine an MMO where players are officials in a government. Players log in, choose what government they would like to be a part of, and are given a constiuency. They have to make decisions that benefit their constiuency, by offering bills, laws, etc.. They have to vote on others proposals, and block others work, while also promoting themselves for better political offices. They can work with, or against, anyone else on the the server. No skills, no stats...just decisions and votes.
Just three ideas for MMO's, not MMORPG's....and all three have the potential to avoid "grinding", "loot", and "PvP/PvE"...the things so many despise in the genre today.
It's fine when you have GAMEPLAY and have repetitive activities. For instance, playing a football game recently I'm playing football matches to earn myself more funds to improve my team. Now, this isn't bad because I enjoy the football matches. If you go back to mmorpgs, and the main source of enjoyment is watching your exp bar or waiting for some equipment then that is a 'grind' since it omits gameplay. Gunzonline follows some simularities to mmorpgs possessing an exp bar. Because of the gameplay of Gunzonline, there was never a moment that I was concerned or worried about my exp bar. So, enhance gameplay of mmorpgs and you can lose the grind.(within limits- see honor system. Incidentally, I think Pvp is one major area that could be developed alot more in mmorpgs to remove that 'grind'.
What about the MMORPG Darkfall? Isn't that game doing away with the level grind in favor of a skill-building system and twitch combat?
MMO games played or tested: EQ, DAoC, Archlord, Auto Assault, CoH, CoV, EQ2, EVE, Guild Wars, Hellgate: London, Linneage II, LOTRO, MxO, Planetside, SWG, Sword of the New World, Tabula Rasa, Vanguard, WWIIOL, WOW, Age of Conan
You want to get rid of the grind you do three things ....
1) get rid of all the gear based nonsense - no more i have better gear I should win crap
2) Limit the use of the Random Number Generator - that means everything
Get ready to cry RPGers
3) put player skill back into the game ... let my skill be the determining factor of a fight. not my mitigation or my sword or how many HP i have. If i hit the jump button in time to dodge over a dragons tail ... then i should.
heres the thing though OP, on why a non-grind MMO will never happen. the sad truth is that Most MMO players and even RPGers are sadists and masochists. thier idea of fun is to play the game like its a job. Thats why you always see "why should you get rewards ... you didn't WORK for them". Most of them lead miserable lives so they make up for it in game with thier uber items that they "worked for". If you took away the grind then everyone would be equal to them and since they suck in real life they don't want to be equal in thier game.
Its the only genre of game where you will see gameplay features associated with work. I have been playing games for 20 years now since i was 9 and I have never seen a genre that wants to take out the fun of games as much as MMOers do.
There have been some interesting replies. Thanks for your contributions, everyone. I think we've recieved some interesting and insightful opinions. I also think we are drawing closer to realizing a few solutions to the 'grind' problem that can accomodate players who grind and who do not.
As far as I can tell the only Player opposed to changes in the grinding system was Rollomasi. I'm a bit confused about the golf analogy since practicing putting increases your skill, rather than adding numerical statistics to your 'golf skill' that has no effect on your own manipulations of the putt. Let me know if you agree with the differentiation I've made between the 'skills' we have control over, and those we don't.
This differentiation spills over into the 'level' paradox - Does the game really change? Does nothing change but the underlying numbers? Is the power gained by levelling an illusion? I believe it is a total illusion. In fact, statistics are an illusion as well. Battling a level 70 wolf in World of Warcraft might take you back to level 40, when you slew a far more terrifying giant in stranglethorn vale that was somehow not as powerful as the little wolf. Levels are a purely numerical increase - the actual gameplay does not become much more difficult at higher levels; in a broad sense. However, at higher levels the numbers exchanged are larger. I was on youtube and came accross a Maple Story PvE video which I watched about a lv.113 priest. While many of the maple story players were very impressed with the large damage numbers and the monsters the priest was killing, I had a hard time seeing anything novel or interested in the video. There was no special 'skill' the player had - the impressiveness was derived from numbers that are higher than the numbers other players possess.
Which brings me to my next point. Winning a chess match, building a soccer team, and succeeding at golf are one-way actual increases in skill and learning. Learning is an important part of life - not only have these people doing this three activities increased some specific life 'skill', they have innovated, experienced, and enjoyed a dynamic journey that had good and bad decisions. In a static linear treadmill there are no good and bad decisions, there is no learning or insights - it is a one way climb (with perhaps some fallbacks) up a treadmill, sometimes an everlasting one, in the case of game patches. What do we gain from this climb? We gain some sort of numerical statistic, perhaps aided by an aesthetically pleasing weapon or some other type of 'fluff'. These 'possessions' that we gain exist only in the game world. There is nothing we learned from them and probably not many fun experiences we underwent in getting them that we can take with us into the real world.
This leads me to reason that every possession we gain in the game world is completely fictitious, and will exist until the game makers decide to rid of the world. Perhaps if we had some sort of ownership over our character, it might be more real, but we do not - it is all the property of the person who owns the server. Playing on a WoW private server was a revealing experience that pretty much destroyed the value of every high level item I've seen in WoW. These items have a fictitious value; their numbers are restricted by the game developers to give them value. When we had free choice of every game item in game with any enchantments and jewels that we wanted - were able to speak to the alliance and teleport to wherever we liked; change the weather or make the sun move quickly through the sky. We were not interested in grinding and instead explored new areas and pvp'd fanatically. Which leads me to wonder if PvP and exploring are the only truly fun parts of MMORPGs. After that, the game completely lost it's allure on real servers. Thrall is truly not a powerful looking character. His impressiveness is derived from numerical attributes. When you are capable of defeating any enemy in game, it shows their true colors; that there is nothing but a 3d model and some numerical attributes governing how they fight.
For instance, there is a level 3 wolf in the barrens. You are a level 70. The wolf looks completely terrifying and even sports impressive looking attacks. Even so, you will have no respect for and will probably ignore the wolf unless it does something interesting or creative (which mobs do not). If there is a level 80 wolf with equal attacks in outland, and it kills several of your friends - you will be amazed by how strong the wolf is. This amazement will disappear after killing it, when it turns out to be another 3d model with some statistics that are rather high. My experience has been that MMORPGs draw you in by making you think they are hiding something special - only to discover that they are redundant from beginnning to end, and that levels are fictitious, the gear is fictitious, and the grind gameplay is uninteresting.
Defining grind gameplay:
I suppose some people have a personal definition, and one person claimed it is 'in your head' (fair enough, although isn't EVERYTHING in your own head? I hate to argue philosophy on a topic like this). I would define grind gameplay (in my head, lol) as being gameplay that is simply not fun, but must be endured in order to play parts of the game. Perhaps a more exacting definition is in order and I hope someone will provide it!
I would define grind gameplay (in my head, lol) as being gameplay that is simply not fun, but must be endured in order to play parts of the game.
I understand what you're saying, but I think it needs cleaned up a bit so that we can get rid of that word "fun." There's nothing wrong with fun, it's just that the concept is too subjective.
Grind is basically repeating an action that has already been mastered by the player with the goal of moving on to a new repetition.
To further define this, think about your job. When you started working, everything was new and you had to be on your toes to learn how everything was done and just where you fit in the organization. After a couple of months, you had learned most of what was expected of you and developed your own rhythm for completing your duties. After a year, you had mastered your task so completely that you could almost do it without paying attention. THAT is what grind is!
Grind can only occur in situations where the outcome is a forgone conclusion. Why do you have to kill the same 5 mobs for 20+ hours just to level up enough to go to the next area or take on the next quest? You are already at a point where you can kill any of the mobs in this area without even taking damage or even looking at the screen. What's the point?
Games like UO and Eve online contain multiple grinds that you can switch between in order to break up the monotony. This would be the same as switching departments and being promoted in your job. Inevitably, you would figure out how your company worked from top to bottom and be stuck with nothing more than a choice of several different grinds. So it is with "sandbox" games.
But wait!! There's the added grind of loot. Since the fights themselves are pretty much decided once you target a specific mob, they throw in random loot drops for variable psychological reinforcement. This is like playing slot machines with funny money. The wheels are going to spin once you push the button, and they'll eventually stop. It's the prizes that keep you coming back. This is where the real addictive quality of these games comes from. Tell me about the depth of this or that MMORPG, I'll point you to a slot machine game at the bargain bin at Wal-Mart that has the exact same draw and gameplay of the game you just mentioned.
In short, I'd be less harsh on MMORPGs if they had gameplay that was more compelling than the average slot machine.
Originally posted by tylerthedrui This differentiation spills over into the 'level' paradox - Does the game really change? Does nothing change but the underlying numbers? Is the power gained by levelling an illusion? I believe it is a total illusion. In fact, statistics are an illusion as well. Battling a level 70 wolf in World of Warcraft might take you back to level 40, when you slew a far more terrifying giant in stranglethorn vale that was somehow not as powerful as the little wolf. Levels are a purely numerical increase - the actual gameplay does not become much more difficult at higher levels; in a broad sense. However, at higher levels the numbers exchanged are larger. I was on youtube and came accross a Maple Story PvE video which I watched about a lv.113 priest. While many of the maple story players were very impressed with the large damage numbers and the monsters the priest was killing, I had a hard time seeing anything novel or interested in the video. There was no special 'skill' the player had - the impressiveness was derived from numbers that are higher than the numbers other players possess.
Of course that's very true. WoW exacerbates it by using the same mobs at different levels, just making them a tad bigger, or a smidgeon different looking. You'll be fighting cats in the starting area and again in several places all over the game -- same cats, higher stats -- it makes the whole thing very transparent. If they had more different, unique mobs, at least that would disguise the phenomenon you describe better.
The PvP game is different, at least for people who define PvP as ganking. In my own experience, there are two kinds of PvPers: (1) PvPers who like more or less fair fights with more or less equally leveled characters and (2) PvPers who like to PK people of lower levels. Gamestyle (2) is really facilitated by a level-based system such as WoW's because while a level 70 may just be fighting bigger, higher-statted cats at level 70, he can always go to Hillsbrad or Stranglethorn and gank the crap out of everyone there without much recourse unless another 70 comes along. A level-based game combined with open PvP makes for a world of opportunity for PK players, because level is so important in terms of who wins a fight. Other games -- like EVE, for example -- which are not level based but have open PvP have plenty of ganking, of course, but it goes all ways: a high skillpoint character is still vulnerable to being ganked by a couple of low skillpoint players, which is simply impossible in WoW -- in WoW, 3 40s couldn't really take down a 60 or 70. So I think that the PK crowd likes the level/grind system because it provides them with the stat advantage they need to gank and PK away, which is the playstyle they like.
Comments
Maybe, but I don't see which goals atm.
- PvP is not an option for me.
- Racing? My reflexes are subpar...thereby good luck keeping me motivated there.
- RPG and Quests? Well, maybe once, or twice, but my interest is mitigated.
- Social stuff? Not for me again.
- Tradeskills, housing & look? Not for me.
HPS, levels, that is something clear, crystal clear, that I can strive for, and I can complete! Think of a system where you would have zones like Warbug, Siren Call and Bloody Bay (in CoH), where everyone is brought to a precise level in said zone, that work fine with me, and it give objectives to players who doesn't want to level up a lot, but at the same time, I would really love to have access to some zones that allow unlimited levels. I really like the concept where everyone, no matter his level, is at level X in a precise zone, and only in this zone. Peoples can focus on non-leveling stuff for these zones, whatever it is...while me, once I am bored, instead of leaving the game, I go back to unlimited levels areas to focus on what I like.
What about an approach which hides stats? Are you fully against that?
What about a system which has multiple approaches towards advancement which would have different results. For example, you might have a fast advancement system for those racing to the end, and for the RP types who don't care about leveling, there is another system in place. You would have tradeoffs for each. The mage who spends his time in a library and lab reading and playing with things could end up with different skills than a hardcore mage who has seen a lot of combat and has had to fight demons, devils and dragons.
Looking forward to Fallen Earth. Does not seems you need to be grinding to much.
Only down side I see with it is, it is still level based or progression based; as far as I can tell. Plus they still only have one side of the equation, offensive game. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the defense still depends on dice rolls somewhat. I can understand this, because of possible latency issues.
Pretty much what I would like to see is Rakion, with more moves, in an MMOG setting(or at least able to fight bosses).
Rakion and Gunz the Duel are probably the best online twitch based games, when it comes to melee style fighting.
As I said earlier, IMO, "the grind" is a natural part of RPG's....but not MMO's.
If you separate MMO's from MMORPG's, you'll be taking the first step to ending the grind.
As I said earlier, IMO, "the grind" is a natural part of RPG's....but not MMO's.
If you separate MMO's from MMORPG's, you'll be taking the first step to ending the grind.
I guess you are right, it is kind of ingrained in us. It has always been grinding in RPG's, that has just been kind of the route it has taken. Even if there was something that was totally different, as far as the grinding, I'm sure it would still have RPG as part of the name. This would help pull in other potential customers, who are fond of the genre.
Imagine, if you will, a city-building MMO (Sim City Online). No characters, no skill trees, no quests, no mobs. Just a giant globe, with a set total population. Let players pick a plot of land, and start building. All the players pull their population from the set total. The competition is to attract more people, and money, to your city, and to keep them there.
Imagine an MMO tycoon game (Theme Park online). Players create their own theme parks, zoos, aquariums, etc... on the same server. Then work to see who can make the most money in a years time. Outside players can view the parks and offer bonuses, or vote on rewards. Players compete to be the best tycoon, have the most exciting location, be a fan favorite, etc...
Imagine an MMO where players are officials in a government. Players log in, choose what government they would like to be a part of, and are given a constiuency. They have to make decisions that benefit their constiuency, by offering bills, laws, etc.. They have to vote on others proposals, and block others work, while also promoting themselves for better political offices. They can work with, or against, anyone else on the the server. No skills, no stats...just decisions and votes.
Just three ideas for MMO's, not MMORPG's....and all three have the potential to avoid "grinding", "loot", and "PvP/PvE"...the things so many despise in the genre today.
It's fine when you have GAMEPLAY and have repetitive activities. For instance, playing a football game recently I'm playing football matches to earn myself more funds to improve my team. Now, this isn't bad because I enjoy the football matches. If you go back to mmorpgs, and the main source of enjoyment is watching your exp bar or waiting for some equipment then that is a 'grind' since it omits gameplay. Gunzonline follows some simularities to mmorpgs possessing an exp bar. Because of the gameplay of Gunzonline, there was never a moment that I was concerned or worried about my exp bar. So, enhance gameplay of mmorpgs and you can lose the grind.(within limits- see honor system. Incidentally, I think Pvp is one major area that could be developed alot more in mmorpgs to remove that 'grind'.
What about the MMORPG Darkfall? Isn't that game doing away with the level grind in favor of a skill-building system and twitch combat?
MMO games played or tested: EQ, DAoC, Archlord, Auto Assault, CoH, CoV, EQ2, EVE, Guild Wars, Hellgate: London, Linneage II, LOTRO, MxO, Planetside, SWG, Sword of the New World, Tabula Rasa, Vanguard, WWIIOL, WOW, Age of Conan
You want to get rid of the grind you do three things ....
1) get rid of all the gear based nonsense - no more i have better gear I should win crap
2) Limit the use of the Random Number Generator - that means everything
Get ready to cry RPGers
3) put player skill back into the game ... let my skill be the determining factor of a fight. not my mitigation or my sword or how many HP i have. If i hit the jump button in time to dodge over a dragons tail ... then i should.
heres the thing though OP, on why a non-grind MMO will never happen. the sad truth is that Most MMO players and even RPGers are sadists and masochists. thier idea of fun is to play the game like its a job. Thats why you always see "why should you get rewards ... you didn't WORK for them". Most of them lead miserable lives so they make up for it in game with thier uber items that they "worked for". If you took away the grind then everyone would be equal to them and since they suck in real life they don't want to be equal in thier game.
Its the only genre of game where you will see gameplay features associated with work. I have been playing games for 20 years now since i was 9 and I have never seen a genre that wants to take out the fun of games as much as MMOers do.
There have been some interesting replies. Thanks for your contributions, everyone. I think we've recieved some interesting and insightful opinions. I also think we are drawing closer to realizing a few solutions to the 'grind' problem that can accomodate players who grind and who do not.
As far as I can tell the only Player opposed to changes in the grinding system was Rollomasi. I'm a bit confused about the golf analogy since practicing putting increases your skill, rather than adding numerical statistics to your 'golf skill' that has no effect on your own manipulations of the putt. Let me know if you agree with the differentiation I've made between the 'skills' we have control over, and those we don't.
This differentiation spills over into the 'level' paradox - Does the game really change? Does nothing change but the underlying numbers? Is the power gained by levelling an illusion? I believe it is a total illusion. In fact, statistics are an illusion as well. Battling a level 70 wolf in World of Warcraft might take you back to level 40, when you slew a far more terrifying giant in stranglethorn vale that was somehow not as powerful as the little wolf. Levels are a purely numerical increase - the actual gameplay does not become much more difficult at higher levels; in a broad sense. However, at higher levels the numbers exchanged are larger. I was on youtube and came accross a Maple Story PvE video which I watched about a lv.113 priest. While many of the maple story players were very impressed with the large damage numbers and the monsters the priest was killing, I had a hard time seeing anything novel or interested in the video. There was no special 'skill' the player had - the impressiveness was derived from numbers that are higher than the numbers other players possess.
Which brings me to my next point. Winning a chess match, building a soccer team, and succeeding at golf are one-way actual increases in skill and learning. Learning is an important part of life - not only have these people doing this three activities increased some specific life 'skill', they have innovated, experienced, and enjoyed a dynamic journey that had good and bad decisions. In a static linear treadmill there are no good and bad decisions, there is no learning or insights - it is a one way climb (with perhaps some fallbacks) up a treadmill, sometimes an everlasting one, in the case of game patches. What do we gain from this climb? We gain some sort of numerical statistic, perhaps aided by an aesthetically pleasing weapon or some other type of 'fluff'. These 'possessions' that we gain exist only in the game world. There is nothing we learned from them and probably not many fun experiences we underwent in getting them that we can take with us into the real world.
This leads me to reason that every possession we gain in the game world is completely fictitious, and will exist until the game makers decide to rid of the world. Perhaps if we had some sort of ownership over our character, it might be more real, but we do not - it is all the property of the person who owns the server. Playing on a WoW private server was a revealing experience that pretty much destroyed the value of every high level item I've seen in WoW. These items have a fictitious value; their numbers are restricted by the game developers to give them value. When we had free choice of every game item in game with any enchantments and jewels that we wanted - were able to speak to the alliance and teleport to wherever we liked; change the weather or make the sun move quickly through the sky. We were not interested in grinding and instead explored new areas and pvp'd fanatically. Which leads me to wonder if PvP and exploring are the only truly fun parts of MMORPGs. After that, the game completely lost it's allure on real servers. Thrall is truly not a powerful looking character. His impressiveness is derived from numerical attributes. When you are capable of defeating any enemy in game, it shows their true colors; that there is nothing but a 3d model and some numerical attributes governing how they fight.
For instance, there is a level 3 wolf in the barrens. You are a level 70. The wolf looks completely terrifying and even sports impressive looking attacks. Even so, you will have no respect for and will probably ignore the wolf unless it does something interesting or creative (which mobs do not). If there is a level 80 wolf with equal attacks in outland, and it kills several of your friends - you will be amazed by how strong the wolf is. This amazement will disappear after killing it, when it turns out to be another 3d model with some statistics that are rather high. My experience has been that MMORPGs draw you in by making you think they are hiding something special - only to discover that they are redundant from beginnning to end, and that levels are fictitious, the gear is fictitious, and the grind gameplay is uninteresting.
Defining grind gameplay:
I suppose some people have a personal definition, and one person claimed it is 'in your head' (fair enough, although isn't EVERYTHING in your own head? I hate to argue philosophy on a topic like this). I would define grind gameplay (in my head, lol) as being gameplay that is simply not fun, but must be endured in order to play parts of the game. Perhaps a more exacting definition is in order and I hope someone will provide it!
That was an awesome post!!!
I would define grind gameplay (in my head, lol) as being gameplay that is simply not fun, but must be endured in order to play parts of the game.
I understand what you're saying, but I think it needs cleaned up a bit so that we can get rid of that word "fun." There's nothing wrong with fun, it's just that the concept is too subjective.
Grind is basically repeating an action that has already been mastered by the player with the goal of moving on to a new repetition.
To further define this, think about your job. When you started working, everything was new and you had to be on your toes to learn how everything was done and just where you fit in the organization. After a couple of months, you had learned most of what was expected of you and developed your own rhythm for completing your duties. After a year, you had mastered your task so completely that you could almost do it without paying attention. THAT is what grind is!
Grind can only occur in situations where the outcome is a forgone conclusion. Why do you have to kill the same 5 mobs for 20+ hours just to level up enough to go to the next area or take on the next quest? You are already at a point where you can kill any of the mobs in this area without even taking damage or even looking at the screen. What's the point?
Games like UO and Eve online contain multiple grinds that you can switch between in order to break up the monotony. This would be the same as switching departments and being promoted in your job. Inevitably, you would figure out how your company worked from top to bottom and be stuck with nothing more than a choice of several different grinds. So it is with "sandbox" games.
But wait!! There's the added grind of loot. Since the fights themselves are pretty much decided once you target a specific mob, they throw in random loot drops for variable psychological reinforcement. This is like playing slot machines with funny money. The wheels are going to spin once you push the button, and they'll eventually stop. It's the prizes that keep you coming back. This is where the real addictive quality of these games comes from. Tell me about the depth of this or that MMORPG, I'll point you to a slot machine game at the bargain bin at Wal-Mart that has the exact same draw and gameplay of the game you just mentioned.
In short, I'd be less harsh on MMORPGs if they had gameplay that was more compelling than the average slot machine.
The PvP game is different, at least for people who define PvP as ganking. In my own experience, there are two kinds of PvPers: (1) PvPers who like more or less fair fights with more or less equally leveled characters and (2) PvPers who like to PK people of lower levels. Gamestyle (2) is really facilitated by a level-based system such as WoW's because while a level 70 may just be fighting bigger, higher-statted cats at level 70, he can always go to Hillsbrad or Stranglethorn and gank the crap out of everyone there without much recourse unless another 70 comes along. A level-based game combined with open PvP makes for a world of opportunity for PK players, because level is so important in terms of who wins a fight. Other games -- like EVE, for example -- which are not level based but have open PvP have plenty of ganking, of course, but it goes all ways: a high skillpoint character is still vulnerable to being ganked by a couple of low skillpoint players, which is simply impossible in WoW -- in WoW, 3 40s couldn't really take down a 60 or 70. So I think that the PK crowd likes the level/grind system because it provides them with the stat advantage they need to gank and PK away, which is the playstyle they like.
By coincidence there is this great article on Gamesutra about this very subject.
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20070326/sorens_01.shtml
Very worth reading.
-- Xix
"I know what you're thinking: 'Why, oh WHY, didn't I take the BLUE pill?'"
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7