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Is raiding dead? Has its exclusiveness slain itself?

rungardrungard Member Posts: 1,035
in The Pub at MMORPG.COM

In my opinion raiding is a dead form of gameplay thats just hanging on by threads.

in the days and age of the solo player mmorpg, is it even viable to try to have raid content in a game anymore?

seems like 5-6 players is a chore.. 24-40 is obsolete....

 

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Comments

  • godpuppetgodpuppet Member Posts: 1,416
    Raiding has never been what keeps me playing an MMO.



    Longest MMO ive played is AO, and thats down to its complexity, community, group natured leveling system and story era.

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  • TaeraTaera Community ManagerMember CommonPosts: 1,078

    I just started raiding this summer, and I must say that it's a total blast.  While hardcore guilds will call spur-of-the-moment raids, most raids are schedualed in advance, giving players warning to leave their solo spots and join their buddies.

    As long as raiding gear and rewards outweighs solo rewards, I don't see raiding dying.  A massive portion of the MMORPG concept weighs on min/maxing - that is, the practice of getting the best spells, highest levels, best gears, etc.  The best way to do this in many games is raiding.

    Laura "Taera" Genender
    Community Manager
    MMORPG.com

  • rungardrungard Member Posts: 1,035
    Originally posted by Taera


    As long as raiding gear and rewards outweighs solo rewards, I don't see raiding dying. 
    what a very interesting comment. What would happen if raid rewards and other rewards were equal?
  • TaeraTaera Community ManagerMember CommonPosts: 1,078
    Originally posted by rungard

    Originally posted by Taera


    As long as raiding gear and rewards outweighs solo rewards, I don't see raiding dying. 
    what a very interesting comment. What would happen if raid rewards and other rewards were equal?



    Raids are tough to organize, and with 30 attendees and only a couple drops it takes time to get your rewards - see DKP systems.  If raiding and soloing rewards were equal, what would be the balancing factor for solo rewards?

    EverQuest's Lost Dungeons of Norrath, when released, allowed groups of players to earn raid-level rewards with a lot of time and mission grinding.  I can see time being a balancing factor - but as min/maxers, would we want to spend that extra time?

    What do you think? :)

    Laura "Taera" Genender
    Community Manager
    MMORPG.com

  • whitedelightwhitedelight Member Posts: 1,544
    Raiding will never die out. People will always want to kill that mob that is impossible to take down without 20 people+.

    image

  • xcaliburxcalibur Member Posts: 571
    Originally posted by rungard

    Originally posted by Taera


    As long as raiding gear and rewards outweighs solo rewards, I don't see raiding dying. 
    what a very interesting comment. What would happen if raid rewards and other rewards were equal?

    Some people would still raid just to see the content.  Many that currently raid would be much happier because their main objective in the game is to get better gear.  And then there are those that would do both even if it was to just mix pieces that were ever so slightly better for their spec.
  • Unknown
    I don't think raiding is dead. I've been in a hardcore wow raiding guild since it was released. And I have to say (even though I admit it has it's downsides) that i still love the concept of raiding. Being in large groups with the people I like to play with keeps me motivated to improve my personal skill and my character. The only thing that I don't like is not being able to decide your own playtimes. On the other hand, in my opinion, killing hard bosses with 40 (or 25) people feels way more rewarding than just grinding 24/7 for your top-notch equipment. There's hardly any challenge in that.



    edit: after all, arent mmorpgs meant for people to play together? if you think me wrong then i probably missed the point.

    have to admit though that the wow community doesnt feel very social. i dont like mmo's with people just wanting to prove their 'superiority'.

    i just wanna have a good time and be social (and yes i have a real life too)
  • Aison2Aison2 Member CommonPosts: 624
    As long as raiding gear and rewards outweighs solo rewards, I don't see raiding dying.



    -what he said...



    +the ammount of hardcore gamers must be big enough to make it profitable to create such content

    (hardcore couse many dungeons take 5+hours in a row to complete)



    its basically like a hardcore gamer trap -if they rush too fast trough the normal content

    they will be caught by the immense timesink called "raiding for the best gear in the game"

    Pi*1337/100 = 42

  • ShoalShoal Member Posts: 1,156

    Tough question.

    I would probably say that Raiding as the ultimate End-Game content is now dead.

    But not dead totally.

    What we will see is a variety of End-Game content.

    Including Small Raiding, Large Raiding, Small Group and Large Group Instance, PvP Battleground,  World PvP,  Instanced PvP, and so forth.

    I think companies are starting to look beyond the 'standard' EQ1 model for End-Game content and are realizing that there are all sorts of players with all sorts of time constraints.  The companies need to provide content for *all* of those players.

  • rungardrungard Member Posts: 1,035
    Originally posted by Shoal


    Tough question.
    I would probably say that Raiding as the ultimate End-Game content is now dead.

    But not dead totally.
    What we will see is a variety of End-Game content.
    Including Small Raiding, Large Raiding, Small Group and Large Group Instance, PvP Battleground,  World PvP,  Instanced PvP, and so forth.
    I think companies are starting to look beyond the 'standard' EQ1 model for End-Game content and are realizing that there are all sorts of players with all sorts of time constraints.  The companies need to provide content for *all* of those players.



    thats reasonable, but i think as mmo's expand to more casual folk, more and more content neds to be geared to these players. I will even go so far to say that in the future of mmorpgs even the size of a "group" will decrease to 3-4, in response to maximizing a players gametime.

    The world of mmo's is moving slowly toward 1-2 hour chuunks of time, gameplay will evolve to match this timeframe. This means the death of raiding and even the reduction in group size in mmorpgs. There isnt much room left for raids in the era of the solo mmo.

  • ShoalShoal Member Posts: 1,156
    Originally posted by rungard

    Originally posted by Shoal


    Tough question.
    I would probably say that Raiding as the ultimate End-Game content is now dead.

    But not dead totally.
    What we will see is a variety of End-Game content.
    Including Small Raiding, Large Raiding, Small Group and Large Group Instance, PvP Battleground,  World PvP,  Instanced PvP, and so forth.
    I think companies are starting to look beyond the 'standard' EQ1 model for End-Game content and are realizing that there are all sorts of players with all sorts of time constraints.  The companies need to provide content for *all* of those players.



    thats reasonable, but i think as mmo's expand to more casual folk, more and more content neds to be geared to these players. I will even go so far to say that in the future of mmorpgs even the size of a "group" will decrease to 3-4, in response to maximizing a players gametime.

    The world of mmo's is moving slowly toward 1-2 hour chuunks of time, gameplay will evolve to match this timeframe. This means the death of raiding and even the reduction in group size in mmorpgs. There isnt much room left for raids in the era of the solo mmo.

    Agreed.  I would like to see more Solo Dungeons and Instances too.  Let us have deep content for all types of players.
  • KurushKurush Member Posts: 1,303
    I think raiding is on the verge of an evolution.  WAR is claiming to change a few things.  Their public instance system is a good example.  They claim that you'll be able to join certain large, in-progress instances which will feature several layers of goals, and that your reward will be based on how much you participate.  Essentially, they're cooperative raids which people can join at any time.  I see future games emulating this feature.
  • rungardrungard Member Posts: 1,035

    this is true. Raidings main enemy is participation, or the ability to participate.

    will it still be raiding though if you can participate at any time? Seems more like soloing in a crowd.

    i think its a great machanic for solo type players and a terrible mechanic for those who live to control raids.

     

     

  • JimmyLegsJimmyLegs Member Posts: 361
    Ahh the good ol days of L2 epic raid boss guys... you need well over 50 people to kill them. I can't remember when the Land Dragon 1st came out I could believe you need over 100 players not sure.



    Raiding will never die, even if solo and raid gear is equal what would be more fun? Fighting by your lonesome or having a group of 20+ players duke it out with a god... I'll pick the big raids. I play MMOs to be well... MASSIVE if I wanted to be alone I would stick to FF, D2, or GW (I think they have larger battles now but oh well I don't like retail GW... beta was awsome tho).
  • MuffinStumpMuffinStump Member UncommonPosts: 474

    Originally posted by rungard

    i think its a great machanic for solo type players and a terrible mechanic for those who live to control raids.

    Some of the most funny videos involve raid leaders completely flipping out when group members aren't in the right place at the right time or aren't following ridiculous instructions...raid falls apart....raid leader has a 'conniption fit'.

    hehe, good times

  • JMoney95JMoney95 Member Posts: 211
    Inc Anofalye to talk about raiding sucks for everyone, CoX is the best game EVER and FoH.
  • SorrowSorrow Member Posts: 1,195

    Nope raiding isnt dead by a far cry.

    Problem is most developers have turned away from raiding entirely and are mass targeting their games to the casual gamer.

    That's why their games have the shelf life of a loaf of day old bread.

    Use to be a Dev made a game that lasted 6 years, now they make 6 games a year...

    Obviously box sales are more important to them than long term subscriptions.

    Shrug

     

    image

  • HrothmundHrothmund Member Posts: 1,061
    Raiding will not die out, it will become more popular.



    With the advent of games like Huxley, organized PvP raids will be the next bit hit. No matter how "hard" many PvE encounetrs are, theyll be mastered in months, or weeks. Just look at WoW, the current highest level content has already been conquered. Complicated AI won't be a reality in MMOs for years to come due to bandwith issues, but PvP raids can already happen. I'm just waiting for a developer to create meaningful raid group vs. raid group content, WoW battlegrounds aren't even close, and Guildwars is off by a longshot too.
  • KnightblastKnightblast Member UncommonPosts: 1,787
    Raiding will evolve to meet the market.  The market is now increasingly casual.  A raiding system that allows players to leave and join whilst it is taking place (like WAR's 'public raids') will be the way of the future.  I suspect there will be holdouts for elitist gamers with blocks of time to spend, but pretty soon -- maybe even this year -- devs are going to solve the puzzle of how to make endgame content casual friendly, because that means keeping the mass market subbed longer.
  • 8299482994 Member Posts: 99
    pardon me for being retarded whats raiding?
  • GreatnessGreatness Member UncommonPosts: 2,188
    Play Lineage 2.. LOTS of people raid.. Some take one party, others take more than 150+ but there are a ton, usually more than one per level between 20-80.

    ~Greatness~

    Currently Playing:
    Nothing

  • smg77smg77 Member Posts: 672
    What kills me about WoW's raid content is that a very small percentage of the population ever sees it. At least with TBC Blizzard put a ton of five and ten-man content in but I'll be that the next year or two is spent on nothing but 25-40 person raid stuff.
  • SamuraiswordSamuraisword Member Posts: 2,111

    Raiding is definitely on it's way out of most MMOGs. Just look at many of the releases scheduled.

    Only about 15% of gamers enjoy raiding and many more absolutely hate having it as part of a MMOG's design. Game companies that want a larger audience are learning to cater to non raiders.

    image

  • Cabe2323Cabe2323 Member Posts: 2,939
    The best example that raiding is dying is that WoW had to decrease the size of their raids.  Don't think for a minute that they didn't need to do this.  They knew that if they didn't try and appeal more to their casual players they would lose them.  But I think blizzard messed up with this.  They are still trying to hard to appeal to the "hardcore raiders" and so they have the system where you need to grind dungeon reputation and hero dungeons to get keys to unlock a dungeon to get another dungeon to raid to unlock another dungeon.  I think we will see the next expansion from WoW going completely raid lite and maybe even decreasing the size of the raid groups down to 15 or 10.  I bet we will also see better PVP objectives in the next expansion do to AoC and WAR's pending releases. 

    Currently playing:
    LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)

    Looking Foward too:
    Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)

  • KlaveKlave Member Posts: 46
    The main reason raiding (small or large scale) will not die is because no one seems to be able to think up any alternatives. In many ways raiding is the logical end game. What genuine alternatives are there?
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