eve crap: T20 again ?

cosy · March 2007

http://kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?t=512

if is not t20 some one from CCP play on coreli

RevMrBlack · March 2007

I tried reading a bunch of the messages, but it was too much. And it seems like Kug's site is down all of a sudden. There doesn't seem to be any reference to t20 at all that I saw. The person just knows a /lot/ about capital ships.

But that's probably cause their IP is from CCP HQ:

(pulled from http://www.geektools.com/whois.php)

% Information related to '87.237.32.0 - 87.237.32.255'

inetnum: 87.237.32.0 - 87.237.32.255

netname: IS-CCP-1

descr: CCP Games HQ

descr: Grandagardi

descr: 101 Reykjavik

country: IS

admin-c: SS18008-RIPE

tech-c: SSS102-RIPE

status: ASSIGNED PA

mnt-by: CCP-MNT

source: RIPE # Filtered

person: Sigtryggur Sigurdsson

address: CCP hf

address: Klapparstig 28

address: 101 Reykjavik

address: Iceland

phone: +354 511 4971

fax-no: +354 511 4998

e-mail: baddi@ccpgames.com

nic-hdl: SS18008-RIPE

mnt-by: ICENET-MNT

source: RIPE # Filtered

person: Sigurdur Stefan Sigurdsson

address: CCP hf

address: Grandagardur 8

address: 101 Reykjavik

address: Iceland

phone: +354 540 9100

e-mail: stebbi@ccpgames.com

nic-hdl: SSS102-RIPE

source: RIPE # Filtered

% Information related to '87.237.32.0/22AS35834'

route: 87.237.32.0/22

descr: CCP Autonomous System

origin: AS35834

mnt-by: CCP-MNT

source: RIPE # Filtered

---

So it's not necessariy t20, but it is a CCP employee. And really, who cares? CCP won't do anything about it, no matter how many posts people make like this. The only way to get them to change things is to cancel your accounts, and make sure to put "Quit due to Dev cheating" or something to that effect in the Comment field. In order to affect change you need to hit them where it hurts, their bottom line.

Rehmes · March 2007

WTS T2 Tin Foil Hats only 10 IQ points

Taram · March 2007

anyone who clicks on links to kug's site is just BEGGING to have their system hacked.

He's a known and convicted hacker. Anyone who goes to his site is a fool.

LordSlater · March 2007

Originally posted by Taram

anyone who clicks on links to kug's site is just BEGGING to have their system hacked.

He's a known and convicted hacker. Anyone who goes to his site is a fool.

Fools and the internet go together like cats and dogs.

Precusor · March 2007

Didnt he hack the FBI?

blackcat35 · April 2007

Originally posted by Taram

anyone who clicks on links to kug's site is just BEGGING to have their system hacked.

He's a known and convicted hacker. Anyone who goes to his site is a fool.

Honestly, your presuming you have something of value to be hacked.....

If you dont' wanna know the latest and greatest about how corrupt CCP is, then don't check the info first hand. :: shrug ::

ostriches and Eve players have alot in common?

Arcticblue · April 2007

Yeah that is one way to try and deny people to get both sides of the case... The latest Devblog where about a CCP staff member who got outed on third party forums because Kuguts could trace his IP Address, something that can be done on any forums... even this.

Also unless you are part of BoB or CCP I don't really see kuguts have anything to gain from knowing your IP and e-mails.

And quite frankly reading that dev blog showed one thing... Kieron does not have much trust in their players.... ALOT of comments there showed me that.

damian7 · April 2007

don't worry, ccp needs to do viral also... how many folks posting on mmorpg.com are from ccp... volunteers, staff... even with staff cheating, bob lost their shipyard and probably did lose another baby titan. but i'm sure ccp will hold a quickie tournament and award bob and/or bob-slaves with a couple of brand new titans to help the cause.

just out of curiousity, how many "normal" random folks has K hacked and posted about? cuz he DOES post about the stuff he discovers....

talk about tin foil hattery.

RAF-dood · April 2007

I applaud the actions of Kug, he brought to light what many of us have suspected all along about CCP and how is he rewarded? He gets banned by CCP, thank god in this country we have laws that protect whistle blowers that discover corruption and bring it out into the open where it can be dealt with. Of course CCP's method is to use a whitewash campaign and keep it from being discussed on their forums and ban those that even hint at the truth of the matter.

This isn't "TinFoil" hat mentailty when the facts have proven otherwise, but sticking your head in the sand and denying that its happened before and will again until CCP changes its ways. I guess some people will do anything to keep getting their fix even denying that theres a problem at all, how addicted to a game are you willing to allow yourself to become to be cheated, lied to and basically laughed at by the very people you're giving your money to?

viza · April 2007

Originally posted by RAF-dood

I applaud the actions of Kug, he brought to light what many of us have suspected all along about CCP and how is he rewarded? He gets banned by CCP, thank god in this country we have laws that protect whistle blowers that discover corruption and bring it out into the open where it can be dealt with. Of course CCP's method is to use a whitewash campaign and keep it from being discussed on their forums and ban those that even hint at the truth of the matter.
This isn't "TinFoil" hat mentailty when the facts have proven otherwise, but sticking your head in the sand and denying that its happened before and will again until CCP changes its ways. I guess some people will do anything to keep getting their fix even denying that theres a problem at all, how addicted to a game are you willing to allow yourself to become to be cheated, lied to and basically laughed at by the very people you're giving your money to?

The laws for whistleblowers only apply to getting fired from their employer. In a game the devs can do whatever they like. Trust me, I got banned from DDO because I had a joke in my bio (yes that's all I did). There doesn't need to be proof. They can just ban you if they feel like it.

Eve is a big sandbox for Oveur and his developers to play in. We are just people they allow to come in and join, paying them for the privilege. They make the rules and decide what's fair. Kug got banned because he signed up, they let him play, and when he found out that they were cheaters and made up the rules as they went along, kicked sand in their face and said "I'm tellin'".

It's their sandbox, they can cheat all they want.

If you point it out they will just boot you. It took a lot of balls for Kug to do what he did, but he did it and there is no turning back. I choose to play because me and my alliance want to beat them as a part of the coalition. If we win it will be all the more satisfying because there's nothing better than beating a cheater and doing it fair and square. That's why BoB will never again be able to rest in this game. Now that the big secret is out, they are public enemy number one to all the other players, and we'll stop at nothing until they are destroyed.

It's not for Kug, it's for ourselves. Cheaters must die, repeatedly. YARR. If we can't destroy them we'll go broke trying.

-Viz

Arcticblue · April 2007

Actually .. no they can't... even that it is "Their" game, they do charge people real life money and that means they got real life commitments towards that paying customer.

I don't mean when it comes to content but for the actions their employees do in the game that can affect you they have to answer for....

So when one of their customers cheat ingame they infact do steal from paying customers of the game and that is one very very serious business for any type of company.

CCP did use two type of EULA breach to kick Kug out of the game, 1) Kug posted real life information about SirMolle on the forums controlled by CCP and 2) Kug costed CCP money by being a whistleblower.

Now to nr. 1... SirMolle and aparently others in BoB did break the same EULA by posting real life information about Kug on CCP's forums and trying to get Kug fired from his work.

And to nr. 2, infact it is not Kug's action who costed CCP money but T20's action that costed CCP money.... if T20 did NOT spawn himself those blueprints and gave them to BoB then this would have been a none issue.. so in both cases it really comes down to one of two things ... 1) they felt that kicking Kug for posting real life information about SirMolle is not serious enough because if they use this only that means they got to kick SirMolle (and possible other leaders of BoB) as well...

or 2) they only used these two cases of breaking EULA as a excuse ... wich means they got a even weaker case... however CCP have admitted they did kick Kug because of EULA breach.

Bottom line is... if I create a product that being a game or any kind of item ... as long as I make it public availible and charge people for it... it means I do have a moraly and financial obligation towards my paying customers or they CAN sue my ass off if I treat this as MY GAME... and screw you if you don't like it attitude as CCP do right now ... as I have written in the review place I put in a quote from Kieron and it pretty much state what I just said ... screw you, if you don't like my transparency.. then find yourself a another game to enjoy.

My response was pretty much that .... thank you for saving me 30 dollars a month that I can spend on other games like World of Warcraft and possible Age of Conan when that comes out.

And the longer it takes for CCP to sort out their attitude and do the right thing that is to Ban SirMolle from the game and deduct some cash from BoB ... more is the chance for me to never return to EVE-Online.

viza · April 2007

Originally posted by Arcticblue

Actually .. no they can't... even that it is "Their" game, they do charge people real life money and that means they got real life commitments towards that paying customer.
I don't mean when it comes to content but for the actions their employees do in the game that can affect you they have to answer for....
So when one of their customers cheat ingame they infact do steal from paying customers of the game and that is one very very serious business for any type of company.

I'm telling you that legally, they can do whatever they want. If they couldn't, there'd be a lawsuit by now right?

I don't see no lawsuits.... Their commitment is all spelled out in the ToS. They don't guarantee that employees won't cheat. Even if they did, some forum posts wouldn't be enough evidence to pull them into court.

I agree with you in principle, that it's wrong, maybe even stinky and slimy, but so is a lot of stuff that will never be fixed in the world. It will cost them players, maybe even their business, but they can still do whatever they want as long as they are paying the rent on their servers. SirMolle will never go to jail for conjuring up T2 BPOs. Kieron will never go to jail for not firing him. CCP is perfectly within their rights to let their employees cheat all the livelong day.

the only thing that can stop them is this little thing called the subscriber, canceling.

If you want to stick it to the man, the best way is to cancel your sub(s) A sandbox is no fun if none of the other kids want play with you.

If you know they cheat, and all the other kids want to play anyway, nothing you can do to stop it.

CCP has a great deal of success in this industry. If they want to piss it away, it's their prerogative. There are no laws against this.

-Viz

Arcticblue · April 2007

Well if Iceland have anything near the laws as they are in Norway CCP would never get away with such a thing... no company that offers a public service like a MMORPG or similar can threat the game like they do...

There are reasons for why companies like Microsoft have to remove some items from their products to accomodate different laws in various countries... and like Apple who have to let the buyers be allowed to play their music on other players than Ipod.

Same goes for the games, the only thing the company can do whatever they want to is on the content part... nobody can dictate what a company wants to have in their game... however since the company takes money for their product they definitly have to answer to some kinds of responsibilities.

Just because nobody have taken the care to drag CCP to the court or any other companies that relys on the EULA does not mean it will hold in the court.

Infact the EULA is not a legal document it is a written statement between you as the paying customer and the company as developer... if you find in the EULA that CCP can cheat, play favorism to one alliance ingame over the rest ... well good luck.

You won't find it there... also there is nothing in the EULA and I have not read it at all but is very sure that it does not state that CCP can do whatever they want with the game and it's customer because it is their game.

CCP used the two points in EULA to kick Kuguts... but they did not use one of the same points to ban SirMolle wich means they clearly favorism to SirMolle ... and that should invalidate the reasons for kicking kuguts... and if kuguts went to court he probably would win.

BigDave7481 · April 2007

Originally posted by Arcticblue

Well if Iceland have anything near the laws as they are in Norway CCP would never get away with such a thing... no company that offers a public service like a MMORPG or similar can threat the game like they do...
There are reasons for why companies like Microsoft have to remove some items from their products to accomodate different laws in various countries... and like Apple who have to let the buyers be allowed to play their music on other players than Ipod.
Same goes for the games, the only thing the company can do whatever they want to is on the content part... nobody can dictate what a company wants to have in their game... however since the company takes money for their product they definitly have to answer to some kinds of responsibilities.
Just because nobody have taken the care to drag CCP to the court or any other companies that relys on the EULA does not mean it will hold in the court.

Infact the EULA is not a legal document it is a written statement between you as the paying customer and the company as developer... if you find in the EULA that CCP can cheat, play favorism to one alliance ingame over the rest ... well good luck.

You won't find it there... also there is nothing in the EULA and I have not read it at all but is very sure that it does not state that CCP can do whatever they want with the game and it's customer because it is their game.
CCP used the two points in EULA to kick Kuguts... but they did not use one of the same points to ban SirMolle wich means they clearly favorism to SirMolle ... and that should invalidate the reasons for kicking kuguts... and if kuguts went to court he probably would win.

It does state in the EULA that CCP has the right to refuse or remove anyone they want from playing the game. CCP own the rights to their company and the game so they can do what they want with content or who they want playing the game. If they favor one group or alliance over another then tough for the rest of us. If they want to ban all of one alliance from the game just because they dont like them then they can, they have the right to do so.

If Kug tries to take CCP to court for anything that they might not be totally legal on then he would just get counter sued and would likely be put in jail for the many international laws he has broken, not to mention CCP has grounds right now to take him to court because he has/is defacing the CCP company name and their products. Why CCP has not procecuted him is beyond me.

bawldy · April 2007

Originally posted by BigDave7481

Originally posted by Arcticblue

Well if Iceland have anything near the laws as they are in Norway CCP would never get away with such a thing... no company that offers a public service like a MMORPG or similar can threat the game like they do...
There are reasons for why companies like Microsoft have to remove some items from their products to accomodate different laws in various countries... and like Apple who have to let the buyers be allowed to play their music on other players than Ipod.
Same goes for the games, the only thing the company can do whatever they want to is on the content part... nobody can dictate what a company wants to have in their game... however since the company takes money for their product they definitly have to answer to some kinds of responsibilities.
Just because nobody have taken the care to drag CCP to the court or any other companies that relys on the EULA does not mean it will hold in the court.

Infact the EULA is not a legal document it is a written statement between you as the paying customer and the company as developer... if you find in the EULA that CCP can cheat, play favorism to one alliance ingame over the rest ... well good luck.

You won't find it there... also there is nothing in the EULA and I have not read it at all but is very sure that it does not state that CCP can do whatever they want with the game and it's customer because it is their game.
CCP used the two points in EULA to kick Kuguts... but they did not use one of the same points to ban SirMolle wich means they clearly favorism to SirMolle ... and that should invalidate the reasons for kicking kuguts... and if kuguts went to court he probably would win.

It does state in the EULA that CCP has the right to refuse or remove anyone they want from playing the game. CCP own the rights to their company and the game so they can do what they want with content or who they want playing the game. If they favor one group or alliance over another then tough for the rest of us. If they want to ban all of one alliance from the game just because they dont like them then they can, they have the right to do so.

If Kug tries to take CCP to court for anything that they might not be totally legal on then he would just get counter sued and would likely be put in jail for the many international laws he has broken, not to mention CCP has grounds right now to take him to court because he has/is defacing the CCP company name and their products. Why CCP has not procecuted him is beyond me.

the reason CCP will NOT do anything (and I do mean anything) is;

1- that it would require CCP to show all the things they are hiding.

2- laws have to be present in the land you live in, and there are no "international laws" related to exposing the misdeeds of a company via info gathered off private gaming forums.

If CCP wish to claim damages, it would expose their employees and volunteers as the root cause, and thus, K is absolved of being responsible for the damages, he only exposed those that caused the damage (CCP). The courts would laugh at CCP and send them home crying...

now if the owners of those forums wish to press charges, they too would have to show all their info and any related real world damages....and since it is a game, there are no damages for the players to show.

so enough of those smoke blowers that try to make K out as the badguy in this, the only badguy is CCP.

BigDave7481 · April 2007

Originally posted by bawldy

Originally posted by BigDave7481

Originally posted by Arcticblue

Well if Iceland have anything near the laws as they are in Norway CCP would never get away with such a thing... no company that offers a public service like a MMORPG or similar can threat the game like they do...
There are reasons for why companies like Microsoft have to remove some items from their products to accomodate different laws in various countries... and like Apple who have to let the buyers be allowed to play their music on other players than Ipod.
Same goes for the games, the only thing the company can do whatever they want to is on the content part... nobody can dictate what a company wants to have in their game... however since the company takes money for their product they definitly have to answer to some kinds of responsibilities.
Just because nobody have taken the care to drag CCP to the court or any other companies that relys on the EULA does not mean it will hold in the court.

Infact the EULA is not a legal document it is a written statement between you as the paying customer and the company as developer... if you find in the EULA that CCP can cheat, play favorism to one alliance ingame over the rest ... well good luck.

You won't find it there... also there is nothing in the EULA and I have not read it at all but is very sure that it does not state that CCP can do whatever they want with the game and it's customer because it is their game.
CCP used the two points in EULA to kick Kuguts... but they did not use one of the same points to ban SirMolle wich means they clearly favorism to SirMolle ... and that should invalidate the reasons for kicking kuguts... and if kuguts went to court he probably would win.

It does state in the EULA that CCP has the right to refuse or remove anyone they want from playing the game. CCP own the rights to their company and the game so they can do what they want with content or who they want playing the game. If they favor one group or alliance over another then tough for the rest of us. If they want to ban all of one alliance from the game just because they dont like them then they can, they have the right to do so.

If Kug tries to take CCP to court for anything that they might not be totally legal on then he would just get counter sued and would likely be put in jail for the many international laws he has broken, not to mention CCP has grounds right now to take him to court because he has/is defacing the CCP company name and their products. Why CCP has not procecuted him is beyond me.

the reason CCP will NOT do anything (and I do mean anything) is;

1- that it would require CCP to show all the things they are hiding.

2- laws have to be present in the land you live in, and there are no "international laws" related to exposing the misdeeds of a company via info gathered off private gaming forums.

If CCP wish to claim damages, it would expose their employees and volunteers as the root cause, and thus, K is absolved of being responsible for the damages, he only exposed those that caused the damage (CCP). The courts would laugh at CCP and send them home crying...

now if the owners of those forums wish to press charges, they too would have to show all their info and any related real world damages....and since it is a game, there are no damages for the players to show.

so enough of those smoke blowers that try to make K out as the badguy in this, the only badguy is CCP.

If CCP can prove, which they can, that their company suffered damages due directly to the actions of "K" then they have sufficient grounds to take him to court. Even if a developer did cheat, since K was the one that exposed it, he would be considered the reason to CCP's damages and this would hold up in court. Now, if CCP was doing something illegal, which the dev cheating wasn't, then K would be protected by "wistleblower" laws.

And since K hacked into "secure" data (forums) he has already broken laws but the owners of those forums would have to press charges. Whether K caused "real world damages" wouldnt matter because he acquired access to secure, passworded information unlawfully. It doesn't matter if its a game forum, someones email or a government; you would still be breaking the law.

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