It was an example of what not being able to communicate carries with it. And i dont see how it couldnt be applicated to WAR. Sure im in a zone enemy players can enter, but that doesnt mean i am absolutely FORCED to jump at their throat if im just passing through to get to that quest NPC or whatever, or need to finish off 10 mobs to get some sort of quest drop.
Also even if it was like that, its not any less relevant than anything that's been discussed here since nothing of this is going to change WAR, the decision being already made.
The reason for factions not beeing able to speak to one another (atleast in DAOC) was to prevent spying. And i sure hope they will do thesame in WAR.
Yep. Not only that but just to put a leash on the immature PvP people who talk crap to eachother >_< Ruining it
$OE lies list http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0 " And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
Kaalin, no offense intended but I'm going to be blunt.
Think you played DAoC. Ever heard people say RED means DEAD? The game says that it's my goal to kill as many of them as I can. There is absolutely no personal component to that. They're all equal before my blade. It gets only ugly once there's a real personal component after people talk to each other and they start to dislike the person not the orc or whatever.
So people are trashtalking the other faction? Good! They'll never know and it's nothing personal. It's just fanning the heat and noone gets hurt. But having your enemies talk to you, just to hear their stupid excuses on why they lost, how it was unfair or how great they are, when they win or how much you suck. That is all stuff that I don't want to hear EVER.
It's nothing wrong with the other faction beeing faceless masses that means that there is no real animosity. It's like you can hate them without really hating someone, I think that's pretty cool.
On the topic of ganking:
There are safezones and PVP zones whoever goes to a PVP zone must face beeing killed by other players and having no chance, if they can't accept that they shouldn't be there.
And I'm for playing games as they are intended to be played, and not making up your own damn rules about what is OK and what not. So someone gets killed without having a chance? Doesn't matter! It's not 1vs1 it's not Group vs Group it's not Guild vs Guild IT's Realm vs Realm. You don't kill someone because they wouldn't stand a chance and they go and kill one of your comrades instead.
It's us vs them you spit in their soup whenever you can - period.
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." ~J. Krishnamurti
It's nothing wrong with the other faction beeing faceless masses that means that there is no real animosity. It's like you can hate them without really hating someone, I think that's pretty cool.
I have to agree on this one. The enemy is always faceless. Just look at Goya's painting "The 3rd of May" : the soldiers are facing away from you, you can't see their faces. They are the enemy and they all look alike. It's the same in "Saving Private Ryan" or any other WWII movie : the enemy's face is never clearly shown.
The same goes for taunting: I've never heard of American soldiers teabaggin' the german stormtroopers the killed. Even if they did yell at eachother, it's highly unlikely that they could hear what the other guy was saying let alone understand him... And this is WAR we're talking about. As the name sugests the game is about war, and anyone caught talking with the enemy is a traitor and will be dealt with accordingly.
Think about it this way, If I take you to Russia and leave you there eventually you will learn Russian. However if you hate Russians more than life itself and I give you an axe when I drop you there you aren't going to be talking or learning. There will be a bloody trail to where you met your maker but at least you took a bunch of people with you. No chance at leatning the language because they are too busy killing each other.
All i can say is.... you want to win a war, you go to war to achieve something, necessarily go through the opposing army, and win. (or maybe going through the opposing army is your objective). Then the war is over.
In WAR you want to play a game, preferrably as long as possible. You cant play without enemies. That's why you should have a bit of respect for them. Without them, there's nothing. Sure its part of the game to oppose them, but it's that difference, that without them there'd be no one to fight, and you depend on them to be there, that draws a line where human concerns go before a supposed game law.
Also i'd like to add that MMOs have always to a major extent been what players make them. Developers do have a vision for the games, and an idea how you should play it, and i'll admit that Mythic is one of the developers that have one of the most aggressive attitudes when it comes to making you play THEIR way. But ask anyone somehow academically involved with any kind of art or creative subjects. Art, music, literature. It doesnt matter. Everyone will tell you that the artist does NOT have sovereignity over the interpretation of his works. And its the exact same with MMORPGs. They can build it to hint at a certain way to see it, but they cant force it.
All i can say is.... you want to win a war, you go to war to achieve something, necessarily go through the opposing army, and win. (or maybe going through the opposing army is your objective). Then the war is over. In WAR you want to play a game, preferrably as long as possible. You cant play without enemies. That's why you should have a bit of respect for them. Without them, there's nothing. Sure its part of the game to oppose them, but it's that difference, that without them there'd be no one to fight, and you depend on them to be there, that draws a line where human concerns go before a supposed game law
Very nicely put! It's good to remind everyone that in spite of the name WAR is not about making a virtual war-simulator. It's about making a fun online game.
Sure you can talk about hating the other side, but that's just part of the rivalry. You need to draw the line and keep things from becoming personal or else people aren't having fun anymore, they're getting angry and bitter and just want to humiliate their opponents. The fun disappears pretty quickly at that point.
For those of you who are saying it will only produce mindless trash talk... try playing CoH/CoV Villains & Heroes can speak and even /tell each other. I've only had good experiences with it... Infact, many of my friends are heroes (im villain) that I met in sirens call or other pvp zones... The reason it was bad in WoW was because that game attracted an insane amount of immature kids. Many MANY times did I get r4ped in WoW when I was farming and wanted to message them and say rofl I got OWNT.. want some help? truce plz? But instead there was no way to tell them I'd leave them alone..
Most Fantasy games are based in a 900-1200 AD era of earth, but with mythological creatures thrown in. In those times, leaders many times had to speak with one another to agree on terms ect... COMMUNICATION WAS NEEDED, and usually a translator would be involved if needed. Infact, translators many times were brought along just to make it easier to communicate grammaticaly correct, the reason for this was because most kings were only taught about warfare and not intellectual thought.
So.. Like I said, it works in many games and would actually make sense in a fantasy game set in an era where warfare and terms were common happenings. I think at the least, there should be servers,areas, or an option that would allow cross-faction speaking.
The only thing people focus on, are beating their foes, conquering land and putting honor upon themselves. A world where strenght and fame is how many enemies you've killed, and all history ever tought to children were about how hard the ancestors fought the enemies.
You'r ancestors are dead, killed, murdered in the war, many of your friends are also dead, had their skulls crushed in by the blunt weapons of the enemies.
Families only staying strong to protect eachother from simply not getting killed.
You know, any day could be your last, never letting your hand off your weapon. You know everyone will continue to fight no matter what, untill the end, to finish what started ages of ages ago...
what would you possible want to say to your enemies..???
$OE lies list http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0 " And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
In a game such as City of Villain, you don't read the enemy chat unless you are very close. However, in the options, you can enable it...if you so desire.
Again, CoV is ahead of all existing games on another topic...disabling it by default and allowing players to enable it work incredibly well.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
For those of you who are saying it will only produce mindless trash talk... try playing CoH/CoV Villains & Heroes can speak and even /tell each other. I've only had good experiences with it... Infact, many of my friends are heroes (im villain) that I met in sirens call or other pvp zones... The reason it was bad in WoW was because that game attracted an insane amount of immature kids. Many MANY times did I get r4ped in WoW when I was farming and wanted to message them and say rofl I got OWNT.. want some help? truce plz? But instead there was no way to tell them I'd leave them alone.. Most Fantasy games are based in a 900-1200 AD era of earth, but with mythological creatures thrown in. In those times, leaders many times had to speak with one another to agree on terms ect... COMMUNICATION WAS NEEDED, and usually a translator would be involved if needed. Infact, translators many times were brought along just to make it easier to communicate grammaticaly correct, the reason for this was because most kings were only taught about warfare and not intellectual thought. So.. Like I said, it works in many games and would actually make sense in a fantasy game set in an era where warfare and terms were common happenings. I think at the least, there should be servers,areas, or an option that would allow cross-faction speaking.
You forget the key information. Chat with the enemy is disabled by default. You have to go into the options, to actually enable it. Which is why it is superior. Many peoples keep it disabled, and peoples who turn it on, can always turn it off back later...or enjoy it. CHOICE, with a basic logical setting.
Having open channel for everyone that WANT to is good, but the key word is, the player must really want it...so you put it, deep, into the options, and whoever wants it turn it on...and peoples who don't like it, turn it off....or never bother with it.
Again, as I said, CoV is leading the way...again.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Edit: Ugh why do people say retarded shit that developers need to prevent "spying"? Is spying not part of war just like, oh i dunno, fighting is?
How freaking hard for developers make a "enable enemy chat" option?
They seemed to start going in the right direction with "enable profanity filter" but why not give players a choice if they want or do not want to speak to the "enemy"?
If people afraid of getting smack talk in PvP from "enemy" players they'd simply enable the "enemy chat filter/scrambler" and allow for more people to get the features that OTHER people want. More people like the game, more people will play it, more fun the game will be.
I really wonder if anybody here played UO or if their experience was so different from mine.
AFAIK that was the only (or almost) game that permitted different factions to talk to each other freely. *MY* experience there was nothing but positive. The fact you could talk in game with your enemies (in uo, mostly other guilds... there were 2 factions but... let's not go there) meant you could build up stories on why were you hunting those guys.
Yes, in WAR, you fight the whole of the enemy and you do not need any additional motivation for it, true, but still... Wouldn't it be cool that while patrolling a PvP area, your scouts stumble across these 10-20 orcs that are intoning some kind of ceremony in front of a crude altar? and the fact you can understand them and it seems they are making a ritual to Gork to do this this or that and that bringing this information to your leader is of utmost importance?
Ups you got discovered and have to flee.
Later, one of the loremasters of your guild think that he knows what the orcs were doing, he heard the legend of an ancient ritual to awake an avatar of Gork. As such, a hunt is declared for those particular orcs above everything else.
Yes, you would kill them all the same, I suppose, but now you have even a more pressing motive to do so. They are not faceless greenskin trying to just invade, they are "THe Black Claw" tribe that is trying to revive Gork. Some of them could have important scrolls or clues on them, so you need to defat them to find a way to stop the ritual from happening.
Oh, and by the way, I think it works opposite. As long as the opponent is faceless, it is EASIER for you to hate them. As soon as the enemy acquire features, names, deeds they did... it become harder. It happens of course, especially for vile ones, but personalizing the enemy is something every army tries to avoid. Of course I'm not sure how much this apply to WAR, being there different races and all... but still... Chaos and Empire are Humans. the Elves are same race with different outlook. Of course certain figurehead get hated all the same, but if the process extends to more than just few of the leaders, then you will start to realize that not all Greenskins are the same. There are differences between this and that tribe and, if nothing else, you can start analyzing such differences and compile them in a tactical handbook.
Think of this: somebody mentioned that Empire says nothing to Chaos. So how can the Witch Hunter get a confession from the Chaos Heretic? he can't? he MUST! "Hethen repent and your soul will be saved!" "Never! my Lord of Change will save me, I will be reborn and will return to torment you in your worst nightmates!!!"
An High Elf could take pity of that particular Dark Elf. He is not really evil, just misguided. They talked a bit in their last duel and it was clear there was some resentment there... if just there could be some resolution to that...
Sounds too RP for you? Well I loved this stuff in UO. A shame in no other game you could do such things.
I pledge for inter-faction communication for RP servers only
Finally, the spying argument has become totally moot with the coming of team speak, ventrilo and whatever other voice chat programs. NOTHING stops a Greenskin and a Dwarf to be on same ventrilo server and spy as much as they want withouth any other being the wiser.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Although I hate RPing in general, I agree with poster above
Making a game that already has factions is destroying the best feature in true PvP game. While Shadowbane had about 0 lore, the diplomacy in the game was superb because you had actual people, guild leaders, guild officers and representatives talking to each other to form alliances to fight bigger guilds, or even talking crap to each other and starting wars and pulling other guilds into conflict just for the hell of it. A True PvP game.
I realize WAR has the lore and unfortunately, for me, it serves as a limiting factor because I dont care about lore at all in mmorpg (except STO probably! goooooooo star trek!). Developers who make a game that limits a player to a specific faction are getting old imo, bring back the REAL diplomacy and PvP!
Comments
It was an example of what not being able to communicate carries with it. And i dont see how it couldnt be applicated to WAR. Sure im in a zone enemy players can enter, but that doesnt mean i am absolutely FORCED to jump at their throat if im just passing through to get to that quest NPC or whatever, or need to finish off 10 mobs to get some sort of quest drop.
Also even if it was like that, its not any less relevant than anything that's been discussed here since nothing of this is going to change WAR, the decision being already made.
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
Think you played DAoC. Ever heard people say RED means DEAD? The game says that it's my goal to kill as many of them as I can. There is absolutely no personal component to that. They're all equal before my blade. It gets only ugly once there's a real personal component after people talk to each other and they start to dislike the person not the orc or whatever.
So people are trashtalking the other faction? Good! They'll never know and it's nothing personal. It's just fanning the heat and noone gets hurt. But having your enemies talk to you, just to hear their stupid excuses on why they lost, how it was unfair or how great they are, when they win or how much you suck. That is all stuff that I don't want to hear EVER.
It's nothing wrong with the other faction beeing faceless masses that means that there is no real animosity. It's like you can hate them without really hating someone, I think that's pretty cool.
On the topic of ganking:There are safezones and PVP zones whoever goes to a PVP zone must face beeing killed by other players and having no chance, if they can't accept that they shouldn't be there.
And I'm for playing games as they are intended to be played, and not making up your own damn rules about what is OK and what not. So someone gets killed without having a chance? Doesn't matter! It's not 1vs1 it's not Group vs Group it's not Guild vs Guild IT's Realm vs Realm. You don't kill someone because they wouldn't stand a chance and they go and kill one of your comrades instead.
It's us vs them you spit in their soup whenever you can - period.
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
~J. Krishnamurti
The same goes for taunting: I've never heard of American soldiers teabaggin' the german stormtroopers the killed. Even if they did yell at eachother, it's highly unlikely that they could hear what the other guy was saying let alone understand him... And this is WAR we're talking about. As the name sugests the game is about war, and anyone caught talking with the enemy is a traitor and will be dealt with accordingly.
See you on the battlefield!
I am His will incarnate.
lol
funneh stuff.
All i can say is.... you want to win a war, you go to war to achieve something, necessarily go through the opposing army, and win. (or maybe going through the opposing army is your objective). Then the war is over.
In WAR you want to play a game, preferrably as long as possible. You cant play without enemies. That's why you should have a bit of respect for them. Without them, there's nothing. Sure its part of the game to oppose them, but it's that difference, that without them there'd be no one to fight, and you depend on them to be there, that draws a line where human concerns go before a supposed game law.
Also i'd like to add that MMOs have always to a major extent been what players make them. Developers do have a vision for the games, and an idea how you should play it, and i'll admit that Mythic is one of the developers that have one of the most aggressive attitudes when it comes to making you play THEIR way. But ask anyone somehow academically involved with any kind of art or creative subjects. Art, music, literature. It doesnt matter. Everyone will tell you that the artist does NOT have sovereignity over the interpretation of his works. And its the exact same with MMORPGs. They can build it to hint at a certain way to see it, but they cant force it.
Very nicely put! It's good to remind everyone that in spite of the name WAR is not about making a virtual war-simulator. It's about making a fun online game.
Sure you can talk about hating the other side, but that's just part of the rivalry. You need to draw the line and keep things from becoming personal or else people aren't having fun anymore, they're getting angry and bitter and just want to humiliate their opponents. The fun disappears pretty quickly at that point.
For those of you who are saying it will only produce mindless trash talk... try playing CoH/CoV Villains & Heroes can speak and even /tell each other. I've only had good experiences with it... Infact, many of my friends are heroes (im villain) that I met in sirens call or other pvp zones... The reason it was bad in WoW was because that game attracted an insane amount of immature kids. Many MANY times did I get r4ped in WoW when I was farming and wanted to message them and say rofl I got OWNT.. want some help? truce plz? But instead there was no way to tell them I'd leave them alone..
Most Fantasy games are based in a 900-1200 AD era of earth, but with mythological creatures thrown in. In those times, leaders many times had to speak with one another to agree on terms ect... COMMUNICATION WAS NEEDED, and usually a translator would be involved if needed. Infact, translators many times were brought along just to make it easier to communicate grammaticaly correct, the reason for this was because most kings were only taught about warfare and not intellectual thought.
So.. Like I said, it works in many games and would actually make sense in a fantasy game set in an era where warfare and terms were common happenings. I think at the least, there should be servers,areas, or an option that would allow cross-faction speaking.
Imagine a world... where only war existed...
The only thing people focus on, are beating their foes, conquering land and putting honor upon themselves. A world where strenght and fame is how many enemies you've killed, and all history ever tought to children were about how hard the ancestors fought the enemies.
You'r ancestors are dead, killed, murdered in the war, many of your friends are also dead, had their skulls crushed in by the blunt weapons of the enemies.
Families only staying strong to protect eachother from simply not getting killed.
You know, any day could be your last, never letting your hand off your weapon. You know everyone will continue to fight no matter what, untill the end, to finish what started ages of ages ago...
what would you possible want to say to your enemies..???
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
In a game such as City of Villain, you don't read the enemy chat unless you are very close. However, in the options, you can enable it...if you so desire.
Again, CoV is ahead of all existing games on another topic...disabling it by default and allowing players to enable it work incredibly well.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
You forget the key information. Chat with the enemy is disabled by default. You have to go into the options, to actually enable it. Which is why it is superior. Many peoples keep it disabled, and peoples who turn it on, can always turn it off back later...or enjoy it. CHOICE, with a basic logical setting.
Having open channel for everyone that WANT to is good, but the key word is, the player must really want it...so you put it, deep, into the options, and whoever wants it turn it on...and peoples who don't like it, turn it off....or never bother with it.
Again, as I said, CoV is leading the way...again.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
How freaking hard for developers make a "enable enemy chat" option?
They seemed to start going in the right direction with "enable profanity filter" but why not give players a choice if they want or do not want to speak to the "enemy"?
If people afraid of getting smack talk in PvP from "enemy" players they'd simply enable the "enemy chat filter/scrambler" and allow for more people to get the features that OTHER people want. More people like the game, more people will play it, more fun the game will be.
WTB Shadowbane 2
I really wonder if anybody here played UO or if their experience was so different from mine.
AFAIK that was the only (or almost) game that permitted different factions to talk to each other freely. *MY* experience there was nothing but positive. The fact you could talk in game with your enemies (in uo, mostly other guilds... there were 2 factions but... let's not go there) meant you could build up stories on why were you hunting those guys.
Yes, in WAR, you fight the whole of the enemy and you do not need any additional motivation for it, true, but still... Wouldn't it be cool that while patrolling a PvP area, your scouts stumble across these 10-20 orcs that are intoning some kind of ceremony in front of a crude altar? and the fact you can understand them and it seems they are making a ritual to Gork to do this this or that and that bringing this information to your leader is of utmost importance?
Ups you got discovered and have to flee.
Later, one of the loremasters of your guild think that he knows what the orcs were doing, he heard the legend of an ancient ritual to awake an avatar of Gork. As such, a hunt is declared for those particular orcs above everything else.
Yes, you would kill them all the same, I suppose, but now you have even a more pressing motive to do so. They are not faceless greenskin trying to just invade, they are "THe Black Claw" tribe that is trying to revive Gork. Some of them could have important scrolls or clues on them, so you need to defat them to find a way to stop the ritual from happening.
Oh, and by the way, I think it works opposite. As long as the opponent is faceless, it is EASIER for you to hate them. As soon as the enemy acquire features, names, deeds they did... it become harder. It happens of course, especially for vile ones, but personalizing the enemy is something every army tries to avoid. Of course I'm not sure how much this apply to WAR, being there different races and all... but still... Chaos and Empire are Humans. the Elves are same race with different outlook. Of course certain figurehead get hated all the same, but if the process extends to more than just few of the leaders, then you will start to realize that not all Greenskins are the same. There are differences between this and that tribe and, if nothing else, you can start analyzing such differences and compile them in a tactical handbook.
Think of this: somebody mentioned that Empire says nothing to Chaos. So how can the Witch Hunter get a confession from the Chaos Heretic? he can't? he MUST! "Hethen repent and your soul will be saved!" "Never! my Lord of Change will save me, I will be reborn and will return to torment you in your worst nightmates!!!"
An High Elf could take pity of that particular Dark Elf. He is not really evil, just misguided. They talked a bit in their last duel and it was clear there was some resentment there... if just there could be some resolution to that...
Sounds too RP for you? Well I loved this stuff in UO. A shame in no other game you could do such things.
I pledge for inter-faction communication for RP servers only
Finally, the spying argument has become totally moot with the coming of team speak, ventrilo and whatever other voice chat programs. NOTHING stops a Greenskin and a Dwarf to be on same ventrilo server and spy as much as they want withouth any other being the wiser.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Making a game that already has factions is destroying the best feature in true PvP game. While Shadowbane had about 0 lore, the diplomacy in the game was superb because you had actual people, guild leaders, guild officers and representatives talking to each other to form alliances to fight bigger guilds, or even talking crap to each other and starting wars and pulling other guilds into conflict just for the hell of it. A True PvP game.
I realize WAR has the lore and unfortunately, for me, it serves as a limiting factor because I dont care about lore at all in mmorpg (except STO probably! goooooooo star trek!). Developers who make a game that limits a player to a specific faction are getting old imo, bring back the REAL diplomacy and PvP!
WTB Shadowbane 2
