Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
the disconnect between SOE and players
ArcAngel3
Member Posts: 2,931
I've often wondered how SOE managment could go so far wrong with the NGE concept. I'm sure there isn't one simple anwer to this. There are probably many factors that were involved, but one thing in particular recently occured to me.
Shortly after the NGE release, and the subsequent player exodus, Smed posted on the SWG forums saying that changes had to be made to make the game viable from a business standpoint (or something to that effect if I remember correctly). In my mind, this hints at a powerful reason for the disconnect between SOE and its playerbase. To SOE management, it appears that SWG was first and foremost a "business". While this is a logical position for them to take, failing to take into account the player's point of view here can lead to a catastrophic outcome.
To many players, SWG was the stuff of childhood dreams. It wasn't experienced as a business, or even "just a video game." Unlike many other MMO's this was "Star Wars." An entire generation's mythos about good and evil and family relationships was involved here.
When SOE began thinking of SWG only in business terms, and probably thinking of making changes to "their" game to make money for "their" company, I think this whole idea of childhood dreams being lived out was completely overlooked. Tinkering with a video game may or may not have dire consequences. No one likes having years worth of progress wiped out in any game I'm sure. But messing around with virtual identities, accomplishments and communities in something connected with childhood dreams takes the emotional impact to a much higher level. I think it hurt a lot of people at a much deeper level.
If this is true, and I suspect that it is, I hope that SOE and other game companies will pay attention to this. When offering a virtual experience that connects with a powerful childhood experience, I recommend that gaming companies proceed with care and a lot of respect for the player.
Arc
P.S. I hope Turbine is paying attention.
Comments
That idea relies heavily on the fact that swg didn't need a massive rework of its combat systems. No one really thought swg combat didn't need work. We differ greatly on the amount of work required and the systems we'd choose for the game had we been in charge.
SOE wanted to make a better swg. They wanted it to be more enjoyable for more players. How they took that simple concept of reworking the combat system into something more fun and got the NGE out of it is beyond me. They tried to do way to much with way to little time, effort, testing and money. The result was what is left today. A shell of a once proud MMO game title. I don't really subscribe to corporate evil greed theories or conspiracy theories. Sure SOE wanted to make more money. To do that they tried to make a better game more people liked. They failed miserably.
The NGE was an attempt to replace the hardcore original playerbase with a less sophisticated and larger one. The "target audience" was the millions who were Star Wars fans but not MMO players, who wanted nothing to do with crafters or entertainers, who wanted "kill loot rinse repeat", and who wanted Jedi from day 1 and was unwilling to work for anything.
Of course, that audience turned out to be vaporware, and the SWG player backlash became thousands of times bigger and more visible than SOE ever anticipated.
Instead of preserving SWG as a viable going concern, SOE instead shortened it's viable game life by years.
That idea relies heavily on the fact that swg didn't need a massive rework of its combat systems. No one really thought swg combat didn't need work. We differ greatly on the amount of work required and the systems we'd choose for the game had we been in charge.
SOE wanted to make a better swg. They wanted it to be more enjoyable for more players. How they took that simple concept of reworking the combat system into something more fun and got the NGE out of it is beyond me. They tried to do way to much with way to little time, effort, testing and money. The result was what is left today. A shell of a once proud MMO game title. I don't really subscribe to corporate evil greed theories or conspiracy theories. Sure SOE wanted to make more money. To do that they tried to make a better game more people liked. They failed miserably.
Actually I thought it was more along the lines of SOE wanting to run all of it's games on the same engine so they'd save devleopment costs... Unfortunately taking a one size fits all approach with games will only guarantee some mediocre games...In case you haven't noticed that's what all their games are, mediocre. The combat system in the SOE engine blows. Combat is exactly the same in all of their games. Trust me, I've played SWG (old and CU) EQ II, and Vanguard. Outside of the artwork and scenery, they are all the same game running the same crappy engine.
Oh, and Turdbine is a chip off the old block. All MMO developers treat their playerbase like crap. If not now, 6 months from now, give it time. Don't expect more, and you won't be disappointed.
-Viz
I think that there are many reasons for the disconnect, and that you and Haxx have hit on some important ones.
Arc
That idea relies heavily on the fact that swg didn't need a massive rework of its combat systems. No one really thought swg combat didn't need work. We differ greatly on the amount of work required and the systems we'd choose for the game had we been in charge.
SOE wanted to make a better swg. They wanted it to be more enjoyable for more players. How they took that simple concept of reworking the combat system into something more fun and got the NGE out of it is beyond me. They tried to do way to much with way to little time, effort, testing and money. The result was what is left today. A shell of a once proud MMO game title. I don't really subscribe to corporate evil greed theories or conspiracy theories. Sure SOE wanted to make more money. To do that they tried to make a better game more people liked. They failed miserably.
Actually I thought it was more along the lines of SOE wanting to run all of it's games on the same engine so they'd save devleopment costs... Unfortunately taking a one size fits all approach with games will only guarantee some mediocre games...In case you haven't noticed that's what all their games are, mediocre. The combat system in the SOE engine blows. Combat is exactly the same in all of their games. Trust me, I've played SWG (old and CU) EQ II, and Vanguard. Outside of the artwork and scenery, they are all the same game running the same crappy engine.
Oh, and Turdbine is a chip off the old block. All MMO developers treat their playerbase like crap. If not now, 6 months from now, give it time. Don't expect more, and you won't be disappointed.
-Viz
I've actually been pleasantly surprised by the treatment I recieve in City of Heroes. I've been playing for over a year now, and feel that they make a real effort to provide a quality experience and not give their playerbase "the shaft." No one's perfect, but the effort is evident and appreciated. Also, as far as "the shaft" goes, the one I got from SOE was particularly long, wide and blunt. It is in fact the biggest shaft I've ever experienced
Well there was this used car dealer I bought a Ford Escort from once... He comes close.
Arc
City of Heroes is in the NCSoft line of games. I've found NCSoft attempting to distribute MMOs that are a little bit different than the standard fare, Dungeon Runners notwithstanding. Auto Assault is unique and a lot of fun. Guild Wars has a really firm playerbase. CoH/CoV is unique AND has some very unusual concepts for gameplay. I'm looking forward to trying Tabla Rasa both for it's NCSoft distribution AND Garriott's design involvement. That one COULD be the next SWG for me...if there's any decent crafting.
There's my one real sticking point, and the disconnect between SOE and its original playerbase can't be seen any more clearly. The complexity of the crafting and the whole entertainer-as-necessary concepts were what made the game for me. No, I didn't have any entertainers in my 5 accounts, but they were a whole side of the game that I was hoping to explore, perhaps on my 3rd Jedi unlock (I got one, with 2 others working on it before NGE shut down all 5 subs).
I'm not sure why everything's gotta be simple these days. As somebody pointed out above, by simplifying everything and trying to appeal to the "younger" console folks, you're marketing to a group that has no money! Huh? I thought this was a business? Whatcha think Dad and Mom are gonna cut first from their monthly credit card bills: gas to get to their low-paying job, or the $15 bucks for their kid to sit in his room that they could stretch into a week of gas? To say nothing of the psychological fact that younger folks' attention span wanes more quickly. In a subscription based business, do you want customers who are 3 months and move on, or customers who are 3 years, adding another sub each year? If it's a BUSINESS decision to change things, then I'd think you'd want to target the changes to folks with MORE money than your current base, not LESS.
SOE (or LA, if you prefer) didn't just disconnect with their players. I think they disconnected from reality and common sense.
-- Xix
"I know what you're thinking: 'Why, oh WHY, didn't I take the BLUE pill?'"
They ignored the real problems, ignored the players, and really just plodded along doing whatever they pleased which was rarely what the game needed or the players had asked for. In the end Smed could of just came out and said "We've ignored the real problems, run our game into the ground, pissed off our playerbase, many of which we drove off to other games, so we're going to make another illogical revamp and do some major cut backs." The game would of been viable had they learned any lessons and not totally mismanaged it from day one and compounded the problems at every turn as player numbers continued to drop. .
The biggest reason SWG never took off and has suffered throughout most of existence comes from a serious lack of leadership, direction, vision, and an overall gameplan for what to do with the game. There doesn't seem to have had one person in charge that could sit down and say, "This is what I want to do with SWG overall" "This is where I want us to be in 3, 6, 9, and 12 months from now"
After the JTL expansion is when the lack of leadership is real obvious and SOE squandered the chance to take SWG to its full potential in terms of gameplay and player numbers. From game launch to JTL you still had most of the initial design team and leadership. They put in the missing mechanics from launch, player housing/cities, bikes, fixed alot of problems, most of the quests working, mobs and proffs balanced somewhat, themeparks, DWB, Jedi/Village, Vette, Ships with Space Combat, ect ect ect. Think about it, lots of stuff going on in this timeframe.
And after JTL????? Ummmm.......Crickets chirping in the background.......Ummmm........
No more high end content added, Battlegrounds still disabled, GCW going nowhere, proffs still unbalanced, no more themeparks added, basically no real big changes or additions. In the meantime you have alot of the original design devs moving on to other games while their leadership is either promoted out of the game or also leaving.
Think about it, can you really think of any major or important changes to the game from JTL to the CU? I can think of some minor things but nothing that really amounts to much. To be honest the only things that really stand out in this timeframe is plenty of bugs/problems being ignored, endless nerf cycles to combat and proffs without ever getting it right, and SOE trying to whore Jedi to the public for more subs at the expense of the game and everyone else.
Insert alternate SWG history here.
Now picture 1 person with some vision put in charge of SWG around the time of the launch of JTL.
They take a good hard look at the game, proffs, and gameplay mechanics.
They give the players some REAL polls about what they see as problems and what they would like changed.
Puts the Dev team on an internal server to see for themselves what works and what doesn't.
Gets input from those same Devs on what can be done and what can't.
This person then boils all this information down, forms a long term overall gameplan, calls a meeting with everyone that in a nutshell consists of
"This is what I want to do with SWG overall." "This is where I want us to be in 3, 6, 9, and 12 months from now."
Say that instead of what really happened after JTL that there was a real focus on the following:
Combat and Proffs were correctly balanced and then left the hell alone.
Melee stackers had damage mitigation in PVP = they could still tank for PVE while not being overpowering in PVP = More of a focus on Blaster fire for combat instead of clubs and swords = as it should of been for a Star Wars themed game.
There was a real focus on firing up the GCW.
Bug hunting and fixing was taken seriously and done in a timely fashion.
More high end content and Mobs are added like the DWB, Krayts, ect ect.
Quest Story Arcs that actually went somewhere beyond 1-2 short quests with meaningful rewards at the end.
Dynamic content that was expanded on and appeared regularly like the Bestine Ewok/Rebel,Krayt,Tusken invasions.
Jedi was still an option with real stiff penalties. = no common Alpha class totally unbalancing everything.
Most or all of those are focused on up until RoTW is released, which should of been in a finished state, that would of been easier to do without a good chunk of the dev team working on the CU which came out at the same time. After that the Devs continue working on the above mechanics while further improving the game.
Alternate SWG history ends here.
If some of that had happened I'd bet you'd be looking at 1m+ players today, there would of been no need for the CU or the NGE, the playerbase would be a hell of alot happier, and SOE would be making money hand over fist.
It's a shame really. SWG was one of those rare games with all kinds of potential, one that could jump out at you and say "Forget that orc and elves crap, this game kicks ass!!!" Truly a game that if it hadn't been so mismanaged could of gave WoW some real competition.
I've often wondered how SOE managment could go so far wrong with the NGE concept. I'm sure there isn't one simple anwer to this. There are probably many factors that were involved, but one thing in particular recently occured to me.
Shortly after the NGE release, and the subsequent player exodus, Smed posted on the SWG forums saying that changes had to be made to make the game viable from a business standpoint (or something to that effect if I remember correctly). In my mind, this hints at a powerful reason for the disconnect between SOE and its playerbase. To SOE management, it appears that SWG was first and foremost a "business". While this is a logical position for them to take, failing to take into account the player's point of view here can lead to a catastrophic outcome.
To many players, SWG was the stuff of childhood dreams. It wasn't experienced as a business, or even "just a video game." Unlike many other MMO's this was "Star Wars." An entire generation's mythos about good and evil and family relationships was involved here.
When SOE began thinking of SWG only in business terms, and probably thinking of making changes to "their" game to make money for "their" company, I think this whole idea of childhood dreams being lived out was completely overlooked. Tinkering with a video game may or may not have dire consequences. No one likes having years worth of progress wiped out in any game I'm sure. But messing around with virtual identities, accomplishments and communities in something connected with childhood dreams takes the emotional impact to a much higher level. I think it hurt a lot of people at a much deeper level.
If this is true, and I suspect that it is, I hope that SOE and other game companies will pay attention to this. When offering a virtual experience that connects with a powerful childhood experience, I recommend that gaming companies proceed with care and a lot of respect for the player.
Arc
P.S. I hope Turbine is paying attention.
I think you are so right Arc, especially this line " But messing around with virtual identities, accomplishments and communities in something connected with childhood dreams takes the emotional impact to a much higher level. I think it hurt a lot of people at a much deeper level." We all know it was far more than a game that was taken away and it created an experience a lot of people will never forget. To be fair to SOE it's hard to make a judgment without knowing the true financial situation of the game, also the fact that it was a "first" and they maybe had little idea of the tremendous furor and emotional backlash it would cause.
I also wonder if developers become a little numb to players constant complaints, dissatisfaction and requests within a game, I can imagine a lot of people were asking for changes and improvements, but as we know no two people want the same thing. Diversity of demand actually gives the devs more freedom to make choices, even if they are not always the right ones. In SOE case they underestimated the deep feelings and community spirit their game had created with their base fans, which leaves one to wonder if they themselves were actually playing the game. Or was it a case of "you don't realize what you have till you have lost it".
There is too, the fact that in the earlier games people invested a lot more of their emotional selves, the whole experience of creating and sharing in game experiences with others was in itself an amazing wonderland. I have the feeling these days everyone is just a little more cynical, having been burnt a few times so games are not "embraced" as deeply. That is not to say we are not still searching.
Would be nice to think after the SWG experience, devs would have learned a lesson and the essence of a game would be safe. Word of mouth advertising is a very powerful thing and it is important to keep the loyalty of the players. But who are they these days, I have a feeling it's the "mass" honcho and that only means one thing, money!!
Before the game even launched I do remember Raph Koster coming out and saying "Jedi will NOT be a playable class!" See I could live with that, I knew that Jedi would just be way too powerful in an MMO game. In my mind it would be like taking a game like Everquest or Ultima Online and putting a 'rare' AK-47 drop in the game. You now have something in game that is soooo powerful that most are going to just play the game to get that item. Not only that anyone that doesn't have that item just cannot cut it in PvP, or hell I remember the first day of ToOW where I'd go with a group to Mustafar to do a quest or two, only too be in space 15 mins later cuz a Jedi Player or two took up the spawn of the NPC we needed to kill...
SOE gave into the Player's they gave them Jedi, and cuz alot of players cried about Perma-Death and the like we got an easyer, softer way to get to Jedi... Both the Players and SOE didn't look ahead, oh yeah Jedi is fun now but when we have a ton of them running around and no way to control it, well we get the last few days of the CU...
SOE fails as rather then hear that part of the Player Base that truely cares about SWG reguardless of it's system. They hear out the players that scream the loudest. Not only that SOE has never given the playerbase the tools to truely see how a new system in the game works. Take the new GCW System, give a Commando the high ranking officer buffs that come with it and he's unstopable. SOE just made an Alpha Class again!
And yes I do have to fault part of the Player base with things... See alot of Players love to think that working on an MMO is easy as hell... Hell even the EMU guys have come out and said that the Pre-CU code is hard to work with. Tho I would love to see things like Player Smuggling, Ground Flight and the like. Those are not over night things SOE can do, asking for a Pre-CU or CU server is asking for too much at this point. Asking for a PvP Server is more down to earth... Yes you may not want to pay $20 bucks for a add-on that has a new planet and quests, but hey that's the price you have to pay...
I guess the over all thing is both SOE and the Player base have to meet at the middle mark. SOE needs to do things like 'let' the playerbase fully test a system before it comes out on live and hear the playerbase out on some of the things with it. SOE needs to hear out the Players who have been posting good ideas, not the players posting 'omg a way 2 bring back alpha jedi'. At the sametime the playerbase needs to start doing a few things as well, taking some pride in the game and understanding that if the players want things to change then start small not big...
After all asking for something big gets the NGE.
Jedi was most likely the biggest reason swg went the way it did, they lied and said it was in game before it was at the start. To then removing perma-death, then giving out holos and finaly pub 10. Alot of time that should of been spent fixing bugs and adding content for all the other profesions. Everytime they nerfd and made jedi easier to unlock/keep just helped piss off the people who didn't care for jedi but also pissed off the people who had unlocked and played through perma death and Tef. I remember getting alot of in-game mails from people saying they were leaving in the weeks after publish 10 and these were people I remember at the time thinking ''but you love this game''.
At the time I couldn't see all the fuss and it didn't bother me that much mainly due to the fact I made a wookie main, mastered 18+ profs and decided to delete him and make a human so I could compete with everyone else, then to read they were adding armour for wookies in a months time lol... and why wookies didn't have armour months into the game you ask?? ^^
If jedi had just been left as it were the game would of got content and bug fixes and everyone who had played long enough would have one. They could by now even decide to give jedi out as 1 year rewards for the people who had played but didn't want to grind. We would still of had the problem of everyone having a jedi, however the amount that got to 4/4/4/4 guardian, not to mention keep it for long would be minimal and everyone else's would be kept hidden.
Star Wars was an adult game because we as children watched the saga unfold today’s youth missed out on that and that’s why no kids wanted to play SWG it had nothing to do what Pre-CU was and what WoW is.
I started playing SWG 6 months before the CU and I seen Bria light up in that time (I only ever really played on Bria) the community really started to come to life in a big way untill the CU hit and BANG everyone was gone. The problem was not the CU or the NGE it was "blue sky thinking" that’s what killed SWG to much looking up there and not enough fixing down here both downgrades were the symptom and not the problem. Great ideas behind the patches just little thought on how it fitted into the game. So it brought more problems than it solved.
every patch I ever looked at was a good idea it was just managed in the most piss poor way (CU and NGE not included) and that’s where the alienation and frustration from the community came from and that’s why the folk in the road took them there and us here.
Tin Foil hats dont work.. its all a conspiracy
Speaking as a beta player and then unlocker at pub 6 as a pre-9 Jedi I can tell you that the mystery of Jedi was fun then... we had no idea of visibility, decay, risk... or what our power really was... in most cases you never found out or had to.
Perma death....or skill loss (which I liked the most) due to the server crashes and stupid things that happend. (I would have been more for perma death except speaking from experience, having 3 lives and losing one or two because SOE cannot keep thier hardware working right was NOT exactly part of the "risk" of being a live Jedi then.
What alot of you don't know is that some of us tested Jedi things, I have posted screen shots before but understand that most of us back then wanted to keep Jedi hard, or even yet harder to get as it went along. We warned the dev team of what could happen, or if they do not consider mixing it up a bit what would happen.
There were core things broke, so what was worse is things being broke on a already risky to play class. (Now then, make no excuse I knew and most of us did what we got into..
Again make no mistake, I loved the risk, the complexity of knowing what to do and what not to... it was not just "grind professions" and POOF you have it made and yee haa, you can PWNZER or some crap.
In fact it was the opp of that, you were frail as paper and had no idea what not to do. You had no idea what gave you visibility, you had 0 terrain nego, so you could only run as fast as a freaking merchant, you had 0 defenses other then the current armor you had on, you had 0 side abilities to keep you alive, no TKM , no alt skill at all... none. On top of that you had no warning of when somthing or someone was going to attack you other then your radar... 20 people could come for you at any given time and let me tell you IT WAS a rush with risk involved.
When we logged in our Jedi -- YOU DID not play it for hours and hours.. you grinded some safe, away from people other then guild look outs and then you logged out.
You avoided travel because 10 mins at a Star Port on Dath was a death trap...Endor could get you killed at low levels and pretty much Tat or Dant was out of the question due to people being all over the place.
If you made ONE mistake, hit ONE wrong button, while traveling... JUST ONE... you were instantly teffed (RED against the op FACTION) by a mere button mistake.. you were a dead Jedi... it was rare if you could hold off more then 2 or 3 people and live...thats for sure. (So if you ever hit a button by mistake, think about that making you red... and dead) --
Now this was ALSO when there was 500 people in Coronet and the Bria was full... there was no rest for the wicked on that server with Jedi... you had to watch your back bigtime. Population was high there and we all knew each other pretty well.
Pearls, saber materials were not cheap nor easy to come by. This is back when it took people to take down a Krayt and then be lucky to get a pearl..
THERE WAS NO OTHER choice... if you did not have pearls to upgrade your saber -- you pretty much were done. Decay on the saber was insane and fast... there was no easy grind then... the XP needed was insane and it took time and wit. You could NOT just go out and kill things like you did for your normal class.
People tend to forget the tact needed to live back then, it was part of the risk vs reward system back then... You had to KNOW the game prior to becoming one... not just the professions or griding to do them... because no matter what you had to at least learn somthing from them... also at the same time, funding your Jedi... you needed creds back then.. YOU HAD to know where and what to do... when and where to go or times to travel. You had to know what mobs not to kill or try to, you had to know what your limits and surroundings were all the time. There was no shrine, there was no rez timers for a Doc, there was no easy road, you had to hide and do it alone most of the time.
While all this time you had to watch out for BH's that could kill you and set you back weeks of grind time, also give you more visibility while fighting. (My favorite one was this.... So your out grinding, a team of 5 come for you... you fight kill two -- get visibility the last 3 kill you... NOW as you know, you die with weapon in hand, you will have it in your hand upon Rez... SO when you rezzed, at the nearest cloning center, which in my case was DATH outpost... I came alive there with a Saber in hand... giving --- yes you guessed it, MORE visibility because back then there was tons of people out there at that post...
So it was a circle of risk... So while some people claim to know, or claim that it was easy and blah blah blah, it was not. Hence if it was then you would have seen 200000 of us back then and all the smack talk of (well all you had to do was XXXX) would have been a moot topic. (Think about it... how when the game had it's higher playerbase ever was there not more Jedi? hmmm????) Because it was more difficult then most admit.
It took some effort and that is why the pre-9 Jedi are more rare then the others. I tell ya though it was the best times I had in the game and it really was somthing to get back then.... it was harder, risky and was more of a gaming satisfaction then most will ever know, not to mention a good challenge.
Being a Star Wars fan that is older, went to the movies etc... it was fun I can tell you that, -- I never needed to click on Lukes head to know that.
The concept of Jedi DID WORK, the risk vs reward system was unique and special the problem was the playerbase at times, SOE should have stuck to its guns with the method or increased it as the population grew, making it easier was not the answer as we NOW see. LA/SOE had a good concept but needed to fine tune it... instead of throwing out the baby with the bath water on it.
Once pub 10 came We started to change, we still had some hardships but by the end of the CU it was a joke......big time joke.......double XP, group NON visibility and how easy it was to do the spin groups or whatever and just live... you had shrine deaths and rez options, doc rezes, and lets not forget that you only lost a little XP then... could be made up in hours not weeks.
In the end, the NGE Jedi is a sad thing to see now, it made the class and thought of Jedi for most of us a joke. One button, click of Lukes head and POOF your a instant Jedi.... That is what is sad to see. But it fits the NGE crowd that is for sure, at least they did not try to make Jedi like it was -pre-9 or pub 10 giving them working FRS or enclaves... that at least is somthing they cannot change or take away now. I loved it though... dying, hiding... all of it.
Isk
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Of course I was a ranger before and knew every planet like the back of my hand. So it was easy to find those places no one else went too. That was until they changed the spawn system based on how many people were in the area. One day Baz Nitches everywhere. The next day your running all over the area for an hour to find one.
I think the jedi issue came from a misconception from the developers. I have said this theory before. When holocrons started dropping there wasnt much ingame content. Only what you made yourselves. And there are just so many parties and weddings you can go too before it starts getting old. So the first holos starting dropping on Dant and people flocked to them. Not because they wanted jedi. Just to have something to do other then parties or weddings. Guys who had content such as crafters, really didnt run to Dant all that much. So the developers saw this as a strong desire for jedi. So they switched gears and put more emphasis on them then anyone else.
This alienated alot of players like Smugglers who had literally gotten no love. Every pub after that was directed at Jedi in someway. The only ones I can think of that werent was the droid pub. And it was probably already being worked on long before the developers decided to switch gears so they went with it.
Holocrons was the beginning of the end for SWG. Before the game was released, developers said time and again that it might be years before a jedi popped. But because of a few minor inquiries from impatient players they got nervous and decided to add hints. That was when I started seeing people leave the game in large numbers. Oh they returned for JTL but only stayed around a month. About the sametime it took to master a pilot profession. The village didnt help things either. Nor did making jedi easier and easier at every turn.
I think the final nail in the coffin for most was when they allowed jedi into the GCW and for awhile even allowed them to get higher on the FRS from killing non-jedi.
Now they are aiming for star wars fans who arent mmo fans. But that isnt working because most star wars fans know that jedi shouldnt be in this time period. So they look at SWG as a joke. Again SOE and LEC not thinking things through.
Kai
*Games on our site will be treated just as we treat people. Unsubstantiated comments about specific or general games will be penalized in nearly the same way attacks against people will. The exception is that you can say mean things about games provided you back it up with reasons.
Example: "Game X sucks." is not a legitimate comment. "Game X sucks, because..." is acceptable.
Thank you,
The Staff
MMORPG.COM
I agree Jwshaw. I enjoyed the player community very much in SWG and met a lot of really excellent people. I also enjoy reading many of the posts here and find that a lot of good thinking goes into them.
Arc
They ignored the real problems, ignored the players, and really just plodded along doing whatever they pleased which was rarely what the game needed or the players had asked for. In the end Smed could of just came out and said "We've ignored the real problems, run our game into the ground, pissed off our playerbase, many of which we drove off to other games, so we're going to make another illogical revamp and do some major cut backs." The game would of been viable had they learned any lessons and not totally mismanaged it from day one and compounded the problems at every turn as player numbers continued to drop. .
The biggest reason SWG never took off and has suffered throughout most of existence comes from a serious lack of leadership, direction, vision, and an overall gameplan for what to do with the game. There doesn't seem to have had one person in charge that could sit down and say, "This is what I want to do with SWG overall" "This is where I want us to be in 3, 6, 9, and 12 months from now"
After the JTL expansion is when the lack of leadership is real obvious and SOE squandered the chance to take SWG to its full potential in terms of gameplay and player numbers. From game launch to JTL you still had most of the initial design team and leadership. They put in the missing mechanics from launch, player housing/cities, bikes, fixed alot of problems, most of the quests working, mobs and proffs balanced somewhat, themeparks, DWB, Jedi/Village, Vette, Ships with Space Combat, ect ect ect. Think about it, lots of stuff going on in this timeframe.
And after JTL????? Ummmm.......Crickets chirping in the background.......Ummmm........
No more high end content added, Battlegrounds still disabled, GCW going nowhere, proffs still unbalanced, no more themeparks added, basically no real big changes or additions. In the meantime you have alot of the original design devs moving on to other games while their leadership is either promoted out of the game or also leaving.
Think about it, can you really think of any major or important changes to the game from JTL to the CU? I can think of some minor things but nothing that really amounts to much. To be honest the only things that really stand out in this timeframe is plenty of bugs/problems being ignored, endless nerf cycles to combat and proffs without ever getting it right, and SOE trying to whore Jedi to the public for more subs at the expense of the game and everyone else.
Insert alternate SWG history here.
Now picture 1 person with some vision put in charge of SWG around the time of the launch of JTL.
They take a good hard look at the game, proffs, and gameplay mechanics.
They give the players some REAL polls about what they see as problems and what they would like changed.
Puts the Dev team on an internal server to see for themselves what works and what doesn't.
Gets input from those same Devs on what can be done and what can't.
This person then boils all this information down, forms a long term overall gameplan, calls a meeting with everyone that in a nutshell consists of
"This is what I want to do with SWG overall." "This is where I want us to be in 3, 6, 9, and 12 months from now."
Say that instead of what really happened after JTL that there was a real focus on the following:
Combat and Proffs were correctly balanced and then left the hell alone.
Melee stackers had damage mitigation in PVP = they could still tank for PVE while not being overpowering in PVP = More of a focus on Blaster fire for combat instead of clubs and swords = as it should of been for a Star Wars themed game.
There was a real focus on firing up the GCW.
Bug hunting and fixing was taken seriously and done in a timely fashion.
More high end content and Mobs are added like the DWB, Krayts, ect ect.
Quest Story Arcs that actually went somewhere beyond 1-2 short quests with meaningful rewards at the end.
Dynamic content that was expanded on and appeared regularly like the Bestine Ewok/Rebel,Krayt,Tusken invasions.
Jedi was still an option with real stiff penalties. = no common Alpha class totally unbalancing everything.
Most or all of those are focused on up until RoTW is released, which should of been in a finished state, that would of been easier to do without a good chunk of the dev team working on the CU which came out at the same time. After that the Devs continue working on the above mechanics while further improving the game.
Alternate SWG history ends here.
If some of that had happened I'd bet you'd be looking at 1m+ players today, there would of been no need for the CU or the NGE, the playerbase would be a hell of alot happier, and SOE would be making money hand over fist.
It's a shame really. SWG was one of those rare games with all kinds of potential, one that could jump out at you and say "Forget that orc and elves crap, this game kicks ass!!!" Truly a game that if it hadn't been so mismanaged could of gave WoW some real competition.
I like your alternate SWG history very much. I've read some of Mr. Koster's stuff too, and some of it seems to depict the same alternate reality. Ah the things that could have been. I really do hope lessons are learned through all of this, and that the same deal doesn't happen somewhere else.
This has me thinking about Turbine and Lord of the Rings online again. That story is loved so deeply by so many. I can see it as a rich opportunity for an online adventure. I think it's an awesome idea. Once again though some deeply held feelings are going to be tapped into. If that's done respectfully (reverently?), I think there could be some amazing potential there. Again though, if people's inner worlds are handled roughly...there'll be trouble. If Turbine recognizes that, and some of the other excellent points people have raised in this thread, they could use the SWG history lesson to avoid some potential mine fields.
I wish them luck, and hope that LOTR fans get to live out their dreams in a safe virtual playground.
Arc
Gesh i get no sand box games coming out till maybe latter on but please at least give me some decent looking player characters choices of armor clothing , toons i can stomac looking at and not go oh yeeky when i see the player characters, and of course the 100's of toons that look just like me......
As far as topic goes i know we all miss what we use to have, mainly because nada else is out there that interest us or holds our attention. Face it we can only do combat so much before we are totaly sick of it....
I miss the fact that there is very little else the new stuff coming out offers besides combat / quests.......
One of my all time favorite use to do things in swg was getting on the speeder bike and riding across every planet, also loved the races on Tatoonie. That was alot of fun running the racing circut....
Of course I was a ranger before and knew every planet like the back of my hand. So it was easy to find those places no one else went too. That was until they changed the spawn system based on how many people were in the area. One day Baz Nitches everywhere. The next day your running all over the area for an hour to find one.
I think the jedi issue came from a misconception from the developers. I have said this theory before. When holocrons started dropping there wasnt much ingame content. Only what you made yourselves. And there are just so many parties and weddings you can go too before it starts getting old. So the first holos starting dropping on Dant and people flocked to them. Not because they wanted jedi. Just to have something to do other then parties or weddings. Guys who had content such as crafters, really didnt run to Dant all that much. So the developers saw this as a strong desire for jedi. So they switched gears and put more emphasis on them then anyone else.
This alienated alot of players like Smugglers who had literally gotten no love. Every pub after that was directed at Jedi in someway. The only ones I can think of that werent was the droid pub. And it was probably already being worked on long before the developers decided to switch gears so they went with it.
Holocrons was the beginning of the end for SWG. Before the game was released, developers said time and again that it might be years before a jedi popped. But because of a few minor inquiries from impatient players they got nervous and decided to add hints. That was when I started seeing people leave the game in large numbers. Oh they returned for JTL but only stayed around a month. About the sametime it took to master a pilot profession. The village didnt help things either. Nor did making jedi easier and easier at every turn.
I think the final nail in the coffin for most was when they allowed jedi into the GCW and for awhile even allowed them to get higher on the FRS from killing non-jedi.
Now they are aiming for star wars fans who arent mmo fans. But that isnt working because most star wars fans know that jedi shouldnt be in this time period. So they look at SWG as a joke. Again SOE and LEC not thinking things through.
Kai
Yep like I said Bria, also that they did figure ways out how to use the droids then they broke that one time... but you said somthing that I brought up..
You were a RANGER before and KNEW things about what and where... vs just go go go and not prepared.
Your odds were different then mine... back then Bria had 10k on all the time... so yeah, it was different I guess.
But yes, the risk was there....
The mystery left the game then... and so did alot of people... as we all know.
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
I really hate it when uninformed people try to blame SWG on LA. SOE has admitted the changes to SWG were done by them to increase the profitability of the business. the only say LA has over anything is that they need to be consulted when changes are being made to the game and sign off on them. Sure LA carries some blame for rubber stamping the changes to SWG but they did not think up the Ideas nor code any of the changes in the CU or NGE. SOE is the developer and as such has complete control over SWG, unlike in vanguard where SOE only publish the game and all support and development is left in the hands of Sigel. This is common knowledge available in numerous posts and press releases. Please read up before making statements that make you seem like an idiot.
Oh yeah,
FIXED :P
This has been an anit-idiot bulletin from the desk of Xerokai.
There is only us, there is only this.
Forget regret, or life is yours to miss.
No other road, no other way.
No day but today.
I really hate it when uninformed people try to blame SWG on LA. SOE has admitted the changes to SWG were done by them to increase the profitability of the business. the only say LA has over anything is that they need to be consulted when changes are being made to the game and sign off on them. Sure LA carries some blame for rubber stamping the changes to SWG but they did not think up the Ideas nor code any of the changes in the CU or NGE. SOE is the developer and as such has complete control over SWG, unlike in vanguard where SOE only publish the game and all support and development is left in the hands of Sigel. This is common knowledge available in numerous posts and press releases. Please read up before making statements that make you seem like an idiot.
Oh yeah,
FIXED :P
This has been an anit-idiot bulletin from the desk of Xerokai.
QFE!
SOE's efforts to streamline their products and reduce development costs will be their undoing! One can only hope.
Bottoms up!
SOE didn't do the NGE as a business decision, if they had they would have scrapped it after it failed as miserably as it did. It was done because the folks in charge of SOE thought the original game wasn't fun. That was also the reason for the CU. The folks who run SOE aren't business people, they are AAHD afflicted power PvP gamers.
Really, can you point to any decision SOE has made in the past two years that has made any sense from a business perspective? From John Smedley down, the folks at SOE suffer from 'Wouldn't it be cool if we did this?' combined with 'The players will stop complaining when they see how cool it is!'. With SWG, they even polled the playerbase when the CU was on Test and when the NGE was on Test. Both times the results were very negative to the impending changes. Both times player input was ignored. SOE's current total subscriber base is actually much lower than the number of subscribers EQ had at its peak. The decisions SOE has made in the past few years (not just with SWG) has given the company the worst reputation of any MMO company. I see no indication that anything is going to change the course SOE is currently on. The only thing that can fix what is wrong with SOE as a company would be a complete change in management personnel.
But anyway, the changes made to SWG were primarily based on the developers and SOE management thinking they were making the game more fun. They were so sure they were right that they were willing to tell the, at the time, current players who didn't like the changes to piss off. The massive loss of subscribers hasn't changed their minds that the game is better now than it used to be. They just think that us former players are just not willing to give the current game a chance. They think we would agree that it is much more fun now if we gave it a chance. Most business people wouldn't sacrifice potential income on personal preferences, especially when it is a product they don't use themselves (I believe Thunderheart is the only SOE employee that plays the game by choice).