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How will they balance rvr
corechamber
Member UncommonPosts: 148
Hey, have they said how they will keep a balance in RVR. How will they prevent this issues wow has with alliance out numbering Horde 2/1. I already know how they will blance the instancing part with npc but have they said anything on world pvp. Is there going to be a limit on race or what?
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"It's no good coming to our game if you are trying to grow weed, It's no good coming to our game if you want to make pants. It's only worth coming to our game if you want to burn things to the ground."
-Paul Barnett, WAR is coming
Ya and balancing with the NPC is a total joke.I was just going to post on this topic ,then i saw this post is already touching on a very shotty system that really is geared towards endgame only.There is no way NPC can think like real players so those instanced [BTW they offer the highest pts to your realm]that pop in NPC to even out the teams will be one sided battles always.If they make the NPC too strong to make up for a lack of a real brain then again players can exploit that to no end.
What becomes of all the low tiers after the first 2 mnths and everyone has raced to reach the end game tier?There will be very few subs beefing up the first few tiers so might as well delete that part of the game off your HD.
Also i have always said there is NO way to balance PVP unless everyone is the same,with the same amount of players doing battle.I mean come on who has played in a FPS game like quake or unreal in team based mode and asked to unbalance the teams ?lol as a matter of fact any online team based game i have been in the players are also very adamant about there pings and connection.
This whole game is setup to play decently on a LAN with friends who even out the teams ,but in a real world where players will do whatever to win,it's a design that will get old real fast .I see this as being setup to be only ENDGAME material and will play out exactly like RF online does at endgame.Two months after the release the lowbie tiers will be Barren dust collecting wastelands.
Will there actually be any ROLEPLAYING or lore in this game?I see a pile of players jumping in and trying to hit the 5th tier[i believe that's the highest tier zone as fast as they can.Is there any content that is above and beyond KILL/GANK KILL and move onto next tier?
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
In any case, I will probably have multiple characters depending on what I feel like fighting with that day.
dont like it? ok, thats good for you. why not go post about games you DO like?
as for the OP, probably no race limits (think about it for a second, it would suck). but by making the "evil" characters cool, they hope to solve some of the problems, dogs of war and the importance of scenarios also seem to be an attempt to prevent "i have more people therefore i win"
id also imagine some buffs for the outnumbered team, maybe stuff like +10% exp to encourage people to roll that side.
Indeed, in DAoC, the underpopulated sides get boosts to xp, rp, and cash %.
I imagine they will do something along those lines.
Making both sides equally well designed, and "done", and not naming the game in a way that is related to one side or the other will help, too.
Dark Age of Camelot and everyone and their mother joined Albion? Color me surprised... Though, Albion did have the most best progression as far as the pve part went. I think their newb dungeon was a lot easier than the other two, as well.
Hey Wizardry, RvR isn't the same as PvP, FPS or Squads. This isn't a twitch game and 1v1s shouldn't factor into the equation either. Idealy there should be enough people RvRing to make it a strategic struggle with tactical elements at the group level. Individual classes/realms/players are not required to be totally balanced. Like DAoC RvR at it's best, it boils down to leadership, communication and execution. Unless your ping is REALLY bad, connection isn't the killer it is in FPS.
Basically chill out. Just because you don't see how they can do it, doesn't mean it can't be done or hasn't been done before. Camelot worked just fine with good population, even if there were imbalances with numbers and class issues. There will be the same issues (I'm sure) of the l33t guilds forming killer squads and wtfqwning people, but in a good struggle, they're just one element of a large war. Each side will have these squads running around.
I'm speaking of open field and siege RvR, the instanced PvP will be less dynamic. Instanced battegrounds can be troublesome with realm imbalance and player skill disparities. I for one am against instancing, but it's part of the MMO world now I suppose.
Regardless, your argument applies against all games and I see WAR as being the best possible arena for large scale RvR on the horizon. I won't let the misgivings of the FPS/Squad-based gaming crowd dampen my enjoyment of an MMO that hopefully cares nothing for the twitch player's desire to stroke themselves. This hopefully, will be a REALM-wide effort on the battlefields.
MMOs Played: EQ 1&2, DAoC, SWG, Planetside, WoW, GW, CoX, DDO, EVE, Vanguard, TR
Playing: WAR
Awaiting 40k Online and wishing for Battletech Online
They want to give something to the hordes of people that do not like being zerged to no tomorrow only because THEIR side has less numbers. At least in a BG you have a fighting chance even if you outnumbered outside 10 to 1.
The Devs cannot dictate who join what side. They cannot answer to popularity so they have to find other way to balance things out. NPCs, they said, will be valued LESS than comparable pcs and will be controlled by no one. This means instead of 10 Vs 5 you get 10 Vs 5 + 10 npcs. (example numbers)
MUCH better in my book than the 10 Vs 5. in first case you have NO chance. in second, you might. Maybe the NPC are idiots but even if they just stand still and defend an objective, they are gonna DO something.
Then you depart for a strange tangent and I kinda lose you. What is your goal? what you seeking? it is possible lower level tiers get to be barebone later, so what? Why it bothers you? If the game is popular enough that is not gonna happen (just go check how many lowbies there are in WoW for example).
Balance: WEll, yes, games like this are never perfectly balanced. for that you need all to be same. But you CAN achieve a decent enough level of balancing where you do not have half your fans crying "FOUL!" and the other half giggling with glee while the massacre dozens of others with their uber classes. I kinda prefer the variety a MMorpg offer than the linearity and simplicity of a FPS. But to each his own, I surely do not diss FPS. They are very entertaining, just in a different way.
Lan setup? uh? You are aware there are other forms of PVP like Battlegrounds and skirmishes that take place outside yes? objectives to conquer and rewards to gain? (players drop loot, not their own but loot, how much time you usually have to loot people in scenarios? not much... outside is another story)
Roleplaying and Lore: If you read some previews, the game is filled with LORE! the fact you start, as a chaos player, getting out of an assault barge, Normandy style, and start massacrating "innocent" villagers to fill their innards in a hell cannon should tell you enough... Also quests will have choices (it seems) and be filled with lore bits.
As for roleplaying, there is nothing the Devs can do to compell people to roleplay. they can encourage people giving them enough tools. Tools as guild halls, conquerable objectives to be claimed, maybe housings (but in WARHAMMER that does not fit at ALL) and so on.
Finally, you get the Tome of Knowledge. a kind of diary that keep track of all you have accompliched, all monsters you have slain and descriptions of them that become better and better as you kill more. You can gain titles out of this (like Giant Slayer if you kill enough giants) and much much more.
So yeah, the game has some features supporting Roleplaying.
Have a nice day.
PS: if you are FRUSTRATED about WAR, for some unknown reasons, I suggest you take a break. Having bad feelings for a game, not even released, is too much. Take a break, do not go in the places that make you angry and try to see things in positive. If you cannot shake this off, you can seek professional help. No, this is not an insult, I AM serious. they can help people, for real.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Now we forward 6-7 YEARS and Mythic find themselves at Warhammers door step with the chance to really make an EPIC mmorpg.For people who need a bit of reassurance and perhaps have only WOW pvp to go on,this is for you.
You need a credit card but if you cancel before the 14 days you DONT get charged.
www.darkageofcamelot.com/
WAR IS COMING...
Ghost Squad...
Ok,please don't pin me for accuracy,because atm I'm still somewhat(to put it mildly) confused as to how/why the 4 types of end game rvr/pvp will work.It seems that WAR is/has different types of rvr/pvp to cater to a wider player base than DAoC.The large zergs are taken care of by instancing,so being overpop would mean waiting in que to get instanced i guess.Not sure what the cap on the instance below the taking city type is,but seems something like BF2.These could easily turn into a stack fest if one side is overpop and has the same ratio of organized grps.the other 2 types of rvr are gonna be popular with pvp vets.the open roaming 6man,and open resurce areas.These will probly at first attract alot of casuals to them,until they get sick of becoming gank grp food.Of course the other sides gank grp's will be using thier own realmates as bait to get some good fights going.
To be honest I wish they just left it all open.It was alot of fun taking a relic from 100 disorganized albs ,with 16 leet(and drunk) mids.Or holding a keep outnumbered 200 to 70.
Underdog realms create and attract better players due to the challange involved,WAR may have eliminated the underdog with instancing.
wow,where did this info come from. Is rank a pvp reward,are they admitting some skill trees are superior.Can't u just equip after you zone.Still doesn't account for vent and well organized grp.
but anyways the instances are mainly for zerg and siege duty(which I have done my share) the Daoc style will be open field fights anyways.
you seem to have inside info,do you know if there will be interrupts.else dogs of war will be pretty gimp.
It was all over the previews early and mid last year - a novel variation that caught everyone's attention. Let me see if I can find some references:
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/setview/features/loadFeature/653/gameID/239
"There will be instanced battle scenarios. Points or ratings are assigned to each character in a group. The group is then paired with one on the opposing side of a similar point value."
http://www.gamona.de/article/detail/id-der_zweite_teil_des_mega_interviews_mit_149089.htm
"In the scenario we want two balanced forces. We reach that by considering the combat points, which depend on each player's level, his equipment and his abilities - so a player will be matched up against an equal point value in opponents, whether that mean nine against ten or one against four.."
http://www.warcry.com/scripts/columns/view_sectionalt.phtml?site=15&id=117&colid=9448
"teams will be balanced with a Warhammer-style point system, where a Level 50 costs a certain amount of points, and there’s only X number of points allowed in each battle."
http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/behindTheScenes/developmentDiaries/CreativityandNumbers.php
Some better details in this development diary: "At this point, we have a near-universal scale by which we can measure nearly any ability we can conceive. This has become our Battle Point system. Every ability, item, monster, character, trap, and widget can be given a Battle Point value that pinpoints its relative combat value in the game. From there, we can set up ways to balance RvR (e.g., you can only bring a certain number of Battle Points into a Scenario), balance mob encounters against expected player power levels, determine item progressions, and a thousand other issues."
I know I've run across more detailed descriptions than that but those should do to verify the existence of the system.
1. It's their version of levels - characters will climb 40 ranks, divided into 4 tiers, with different zones designed for each tier. (side note - they've shown 4 different experience bars, one of which is a PvP bar, but I haven't seen any explanation detailing how those 4 bars and the character rank/tier relate. We know that those bars determine when you get to pick skills/abilities of specific types during your progression through a rank, but not much more).
2. Skill trees might be a bad way to describe them. They've said that while skill groups do have a progression, a player can decide what order to develop his skills in - so one might choose to master horseback riding early, while another of the same rank doesn't have any riding skills but instead mastered various power attacks; each of those choices should, in theory, carry a point value.
3. I suspect you'll be doing a disservice to your side if you go into a scenario carrying extra equipment - pretty sure I read in some Q&A that the character will be valued based on all the equipment carried, so carrying extra equipment sets unequipped would just boost your point value.
4. True - but that's kind of the point. They're doing a lot to try to minimize the effect of gear and level-power and maximize the effect of organization, planning, and knowing how to properly chain your own abilities.
Not sure why interrupts would help dogs of war. They've said that all abilities will require action points, limiting instants, but they haven't said much about interrupts as far as I know.
They have mentioned that the DoW wil attach themselves to the party leaders and be composed of any career types that are weak (a group of mages and tanks might get a healer DoW who follows the leader around, for example). Still no idea what kind of command abilities we'll have over the DoW though.,
Re: Being in the know. Check out the three editorials in my sig. We've been adding bits of data as new info appears in previews and interviews, gathering the sum of everything we've been told about the game development. The Mythic folks read over them and gave them the thumbs up - enough to feature them in WAR's February newsletter.
I played DAoC for over three years and it's biggest problem is that they could *never* balance RvR - one Realm or the other was always over-powered, and that greatly decreased the fun of the game.
I suspect that Mythic will have the same problem in WAR and that bodes poorly for the game.
No, the classes are as close as you can get it with a naked eye, the only way to know for sure if something is balanced is if it is a mirror comparison, which is lame as hell. DAOC is far more balanced than Lineage, AC, AC2, and *shudders* look at WoW, they make unbalanced classes with the excuse of each side has access to both... well that's lame as hell like i said, WoW is horridly unbalanced with things like shadow priests and warlocks.
DAOC is not awfully unbalanced, now Mauler that thing is brutal.
Havent read the links yet(just got mom to go from aol 24kbps to cable 7Mbps next week) lol,shes gonna freak at that speed.Plus I set up vent for her.See I even make my own mother use vent
.
Anyways damn,you got the lowdown.Looks good and what your saying is hiding in pve,for gear and being pvp pl'd.will not help you nearly as much as pvp experience/skill/organization/tactics/and comunication.Which is how Daoc had always been anyways,this just reinforces it.
I was wondering about interupts since dogs of war seem to be basically temporary pets.and pets were mainly used to interrupt casters in daoc.
I see what u mean by skill tree,3 lvl 1 skills would be less point value than a single level 2.
so we may actually see the opposite of what I envisioned.The best troops(elitest snobs like me) will be pushing the main front lines and taking cities.While the skirmish players(good term hah) roam and fight in the open field.which in turn will attract advanced roamers to feed off them.
Theres gonna be alot of killing ,easily double the body count of daoc.No more hiding in a 150 man alb zerg with 20 lords in it.
I better get back on RO till war, to get used to that feeling of battle and being shot dead.
I played DAoC for over three years and it's biggest problem is that they could *never* balance RvR - one Realm or the other was always over-powered, and that greatly decreased the fun of the game.
I suspect that Mythic will have the same problem in WAR and that bodes poorly for the game.
Mythic learned their lesson on at least two huge sticking points they had when it came to balancing DAoC RvR.1. No buffbots.
http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=8924.msg254903#msg254903
2. No stealth classes.
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?p=131345#post131345
Those two facts alone are huge and completely changes the scape of RvR as we've known it. I believe it's safe to assume they've pruned DAoC's RvR model for other smaller problems as well before applying it to WAR.
Of course, they've more than likely added a whole host of new things to RvR as well that might turn out imbalanced. But we can't judge that until WAR is open for the masses. Still, no real reason to believe Mythic will have the "same" problems in WAR considering the differences already announced.
The same way Planetside keeps the roughly 33/33/33 split on its servers.
If one side gets to many, it locks characters of that side from logging in.
So server goes 60/40(good/evil), it stops Good logging in or creating new characters.
Thats stupid - Orks are supposed to outnumber virtually everyone else, therefore Evil would have slightly more players.
Thats stupid - Orks are supposed to outnumber virtually everyone else, therefore Evil would have slightly more players.
1. I wouldent really want to be stuck at the loginscreen even tough thats a simple way of balancing things.
2. The part of orks suppost to outnumber all other classes might be right i dont really know but im pretty sure that the orks wouldent be content whit being alowed to be 20% more on the server and being 20% weaker whitch in that case is a must.
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