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Armor value is pretty useless

Was fighting a named npc that was one level above me, it was 11 and I was 10.

Had some pretty old armor on me on the first fight, so I went and upgraded it, basically doubling my armor value. 

Guess what the fight went exactly as it had before, he was hitting me for the same value every time as the previous fight.

Complete waste of money.   So do not upgrade armor if you are just looking at a difference in armor, does not appear to effect fights much at all.

Comments

  • xxthecorexxxxthecorexx Member Posts: 1,078
    i read somewhere that as per design, armor has a VERY SMALL mitigation value.

    ____________________________
    TheCore

  • alyndalealyndale Member UncommonPosts: 936
    Well then, here is the first aspect I take issue with.  What is the point of crafting armor of supposedly higher value and it not have a beneficial effect on the fight?



    Unfortunately, this is not very good.  Leveling should include armor and weapon values.



    Comments?

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  • arctarusarctarus Member UncommonPosts: 2,581
    Originally posted by alyndale

    Well then, here is the first aspect I take issue with.  What is the point of crafting armor of supposedly higher value and it not have a beneficial effect on the fight?



    Unfortunately, this is not very good.  Leveling should include armor and weapon values.



    Comments?




    yap, I believe higher lvl of armour and weapons shld gives a player more value as in they have greater str and take less dmg, able to do more dmg etc... but maybe the armour that the op buys didnt have any def boost that's why he's being hit the same amount of hp. But did he do more dmg with a better weapons?

    RIP Orc Choppa

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,095
    Hmm.. as a Guardian who is looking forward to bonuses from wearing plate and carrying a shield, I'm going to be annoyed if Captains and Champions can actually tank as well as I can (maybe minus the taunts) and while doing a substantial amount more damage than me.



    Thanks for the heads up...I think next time I upgrade my armor I'm going to do a little test of my own to see if I can replicate the OP's results...

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  • airheadairhead Member UncommonPosts: 718
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Hmm.. as a Guardian who is looking forward to bonuses from wearing plate and carrying a shield, I'm going to be annoyed if Captains and Champions can actually tank as well as I can (maybe minus the taunts) and while doing a substantial amount more damage than me.



    Thanks for the heads up...I think next time I upgrade my armor I'm going to do a little test of my own to see if I can replicate the OP's results...
    Well I don't know about captains, but champions get heavy armor at 20, just 5 levels after guards do.



    However, I think where guards get defined as the real tanks is with the AOE taunt skills they get in their 20s. No one else get's such things.
  • alyndalealyndale Member UncommonPosts: 936
    Is there anyone with knowledge as to the solution to this issue.  I rather deem this as somewhat important in future development of this game.  I am not sure whether I would want to continue if there isn't a distinction in armor levels and values.



    Comments...  

    All I want is the truth
    Just gimme some truth
    John Lennon

  • CiredricCiredric Member Posts: 723

    Well if this was the intended design, I would have to classify it as a MAJOR design flaw.

    Personally I am a bit disappointed in Turbine if this is the case.

  • ayanelayanel Member Posts: 150

    Did you try checking your common damage mitigation value?  If you still have your old armor you can put it on and see what % the damage is reduced by and then the same with the new armor.  That should give you a much clearer idea of what it is actually doing for you. (Or not doing for you as the case may be.)

    P.S. If you feel there really is an issue here then your best bet is to raise the topic on the official forms.  The devs actually read those =)

  • psyconiuspsyconius Member Posts: 272
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Hmm.. as a Guardian who is looking forward to bonuses from wearing plate and carrying a shield, I'm going to be annoyed if Captains and Champions can actually tank as well as I can (maybe minus the taunts) and while doing a substantial amount more damage than me.



    Thanks for the heads up...I think next time I upgrade my armor I'm going to do a little test of my own to see if I can replicate the OP's results...
    Well the point would be that Guardian's natural mitigation is far superior to Champs and especially Capts.... So the armor being useless doesn't change anything =P

    --
    psyconius Cthulhu
    Gothika Studios

  • seabass2003seabass2003 Member Posts: 4,144

    I went to the official forums you guys should read this thread.

    http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=36554&highlight=armor+mitigation

    Maybe this clears things up but you really need to read the whole post eer thread.

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  • MidavegMidaveg Member Posts: 296
    Originally posted by Ciredric


    Was fighting a named npc that was one level above me, it was 11 and I was 10.
    Had some pretty old armor on me on the first fight, so I went and upgraded it, basically doubling my armor value. 
    Guess what the fight went exactly as it had before, he was hitting me for the same value every time as the previous fight.
    Complete waste of money.   So do not upgrade armor if you are just looking at a difference in armor, does not appear to effect fights much at all.
    I ask the same question myself when i uninstall LORTO client. I was level 12 and the goblins were lvl 8 ~ 9. The infamous piercers deal the same damage as what i got when i was level 8. What i believe is the mitigation is heavily flawed. Even with upgraded armour pieces, it only reduce like 1~2 damage point.

    All canceled. Waiting on Warhammer Online : Age of Reckoning.

  • KnightblastKnightblast Member UncommonPosts: 1,787
    The problem arises because people are used to different systems, where armor mitigates a lot, and therefore is constantly upgraded to get massive increases in mitigation (among other stat buffs), and having this be a core element of the game mechanic and playing the game successfully.  WoW is a prime example of this, as is EQ2.  Gear is all -- it is the God of the game.



    LOTRO is not designed to be nearly as gear-centered as those games.  So while your armor does mitigate, constantly upgrading your armor doesn't get you huge mitigation increases -- it's a very modest increase.  The Guardian is designed to taunt, block and parry rather than simply be a damage sponge, for example.  The nicer armor will have slightly nicer mitigation, but the key to the character's success is the character's skills and those skills being used well by the player in a particular situation, much moreso than whether he has +750 blah-blah.  It isn't simply the case of assembling the most massive +whatever pieces you can find, as it is in some other games,and people are not used to that.



    So, yes certainly the difference in mitigation between yellow and grey armor is not very great at all at the levels people are playing right now.  In fact, some people have simply elected to wear all grey pieces while they farm for gold now in order to reduce repair costs and maximize profit, because the dropoff in performance at this level is really minimal. 



    Yet another reason why the game isn't exactly a "WoW clone", in my opinion.
  • ChaulsinNLChaulsinNL Member UncommonPosts: 182
    Imo for me that's a good thing to hear. The massive itemization off wow is what blew me off in the end. All the whining and complaints about dkp, loot distribution really blew raiding for me. That and getting better gear to go there to get better gear to go there to get better gear .. rinse and repeat really didnt do it for me any more.
  • psyconiuspsyconius Member Posts: 272
    Originally posted by Novaseeker

    The problem arises because people are used to different systems, where armor mitigates a lot, and therefore is constantly upgraded to get massive increases in mitigation (among other stat buffs), and having this be a core element of the game mechanic and playing the game successfully.  WoW is a prime example of this, as is EQ2.  Gear is all -- it is the God of the game.



    LOTRO is not designed to be nearly as gear-centered as those games.  So while your armor does mitigate, constantly upgrading your armor doesn't get you huge mitigation increases -- it's a very modest increase.  The Guardian is designed to taunt, block and parry rather than simply be a damage sponge, for example.  The nicer armor will have slightly nicer mitigation, but the key to the character's success is the character's skills and those skills being used well by the player in a particular situation, much moreso than whether he has +750 blah-blah.  It isn't simply the case of assembling the most massive +whatever pieces you can find, as it is in some other games,and people are not used to that.



    So, yes certainly the difference in mitigation between yellow and grey armor is not very great at all at the levels people are playing right now.  In fact, some people have simply elected to wear all grey pieces while they farm for gold now in order to reduce repair costs and maximize profit, because the dropoff in performance at this level is really minimal. 



    Yet another reason why the game isn't exactly a "WoW clone", in my opinion.
       Ed Zachary...



    Gear crazy games get old fast when people camp mobs relentlessly.. Or run through raids over and over and over again =P

    --
    psyconius Cthulhu
    Gothika Studios

  • CaleSentariCaleSentari Member Posts: 178
    Originally posted by Boompje

    Imo for me that's a good thing to hear. The massive itemization off wow is what blew me off in the end. All the whining and complaints about dkp, loot distribution really blew raiding for me. That and getting better gear to go there to get better gear to go there to get better gear .. rinse and repeat really didnt do it for me any more.

    I agree.  Raids and end-game experiences shouldn't neccessarily just be about repeatedly doing the same things to get the gear that you basically "need" because of the way the armor system works. 

    Yes, I understand the points about  wanting progession, rewards for upgrading and of course the concern for armor crafters.  At the same time, item-centric systems where big differences exist can be bad for crafting as well in their own way.  Even though I'm not a armorsmith (tinker w00t) I would have concerns on how it would affect it.

    Although I haven't really noticed a huge difference I can usually tell when I've upgraded my armor, even if its a small difference. 

  • airheadairhead Member UncommonPosts: 718
    One little example from last night... playing a champ at level 13 and killing bears. Bears have this debuff move that subtracts around 270 armor, and it lasts for a minute and half.  So I fight one bear without the debuf on me, bear dies after I do my several moves/combos, and I'm at around 80% percent heatlh. Fight a few more till i get that debuff to land on me. Then I fight another bear with like -170 armor (that's right, negative 170 armor), the bear dies, and I'm at like what? 60-70% health?   I've done this numerous times and I can hardly tell a difference between have 200 armor or -170. IF I can't tell a difference between that, then of course it would be really hard to tell the difference between medium and heavy armor... and even harder to tell the difference between different pieces of armor of type x, etc.



    On the whole, I like the idea of having less emphasis on itemization. And maybe armor differences become more noticeable at higher levels? (don't know). But this just seems a little bit too far the other direction imo. I don't see how the armor crafting professions will have any demand at all if it's this extreme. I think they should swing it a LITTLE more the other way, and maybe cut down the armor debuff that some of the mobs do, and how long they last (those bear debuffs are just too long imo).
  • KnightblastKnightblast Member UncommonPosts: 1,787
    Indeed, people are now "naked farming" to take advantage of this scenario.  In other words, take off all your armor, and put it in your vault, empty all of your bags, and only take your weapon(s) with you.  That way you have almost no repair costs and the farming is pure profit, and unless you push it with more difficult mobs, you're more or less fine as far as mitigation goes.  I don't think that's quite what Turbine intended, so I would guess some adjustments will be coming.
  • CiredricCiredric Member Posts: 723

    Ok I don't like extreme itemization like Wow has either, but when my 15 guardian can take off his chain and put on starting armor, yep the stuff you buy when you are level 2 and end up taking about the same damage as with the chain, now that is beyond ridiculous.

    Talk about swinging the pendulum too far the other way, this is beyond absurd.

    I really feel sorry for the armor makers, why purchase their products, it makes so little difference.

    My thought is thank you Turbine, for letting me play open beta so I could find this fact out before blowing my money on this game.

    In my view this fact alone, pretty much seals the fate of this game as another also ran.

  • Daffid011Daffid011 Member UncommonPosts: 7,945
    You are level 10, don't expect to much out of gear at this level, especially against a named.  Levels come and go to fast early on to be dependent on gathering gear to make significant increases. 



    No offense mate, but there isn't much difference at low levels in all games.  Designers need room to allow characters to improve ALL the way through the game.  It comes a little at a time.  Really, a mage can tank in almost any game up into the teens just as well as a warrior.  It takes time for classes to flesh out.



    The low levels are just about getting a feel for the game and tasting enough to set the hook. 



    If this game launches and the biggest problem is they need to rework mitigation I will be overjoyed.  No game is beyond need of balancing just after launch, but LOTRO looks mighty polished so far.  Especially compared to several other games at launch.







     


  • FikusOfAhaziFikusOfAhazi Member Posts: 1,835

    ya, i was kinda worried at first, but, if you play long enough you see its the whole package that matters. Armor, weaps, jewels,food, buffs, group buffs, traits, battlelore buffs...you cant make your char into God. You can make it more effective in one or two areas of your choice depending on what you want to do with your toon. And with all those things combined, there is a big difference. There is no paying 50 bucks to a farming site to twink out your level 10 to solo the great barrow. A new pair of leggins wont allow you to do something that is impossible for you now.

    However, there is a balance that needs to be found. As someone said earlier, when people are farming naked to save on repair, some adjustment must be made. Lower repair too much..people will start using death as an insta travel. make armor value too much of a factor, then whoever has the most money has the best gear..for the people intrested in that kinda stuff. For the people who dont have the money..they grind. The whole game changes and everything 90% of the people are doing is for better gear. Then we'll need even better gear in the expansion..so we'll have to grind or buy again.  And those are addictive gameplay mechanics. I'd rather be addicted to the immersion myself:)

    I would expect some adjustments here or there, but I doubt you'll ever put on a helmet, and go OMG!!! this helmet rulez!! Or a new sword that makes you pwn at will in monter play. Remember there are tons of enhancement thru traits and everything else that make up the whole package. No one item or one trait or one buff will let you do anything more than you can already do. The certain combination of them all will let you do somethings better, another combination may let you do some other things. But no combination will make you better than anyone. No one will be the "dueling" champ because he dropped 500 bucks for gold and items.

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  • rounnerrounner Member UncommonPosts: 725

    I know I should agree that gear centric games are bad, some of these posts are articulate and well argued.

    Deep down though without a carrot on a stick I know I wont keep playing.

     

  • McrobrewerMcrobrewer Member Posts: 36
    Originally posted by rounner


    I know I should agree that gear centric games are bad, some of these posts are articulate and well argued.
    Deep down though without a carrot on a stick I know I wont keep playing.
     

     

    Well I dont know about carrots.... :) But armor does make a difference... It may not make a big difference in the lower levels... but that is partly because you are getting hit by the MOBs for a low amount... so an increase in mitigation does not amount to much in terms of actual points....

  • ekspertseksperts Member Posts: 49


    Originally posted by Daffid011
    ...
    If this game launches and the biggest problem is they need to rework mitigation I will be overjoyed.  No game is beyond need of balancing just after launch, but LOTRO looks mighty polished so far.  Especially compared to several other games at launch.

    I agree. I hate gear depended games and becouse come to Middle-Earth. Gear is nothing, look at your experience and skills.

  • JonMichaelJonMichael Member Posts: 796
    Originally posted by Ciredric


    Was fighting a named npc that was one level above me, it was 11 and I was 10.
    Had some pretty old armor on me on the first fight, so I went and upgraded it, basically doubling my armor value. 
    Guess what the fight went exactly as it had before, he was hitting me for the same value every time as the previous fight.
    Complete waste of money.   So do not upgrade armor if you are just looking at a difference in armor, does not appear to effect fights much at all.



    You're only level 10.  Try holding on to that armor and using it at level 20... you'll see a difference.

    In closed beta, I had a Captain that was level 34.  Armor values (while not as important in LOTRO as in some other games) do become more important as you level.. especially with the mods they offer.

    There's no way you want to be running in the Trollshaws all nakie. ;)

     

    _________________________________
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  • XpheyelXpheyel Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 704

    First of all, yeah, Armor Value is a nearly useless number. Don't use it. People are always mentioning armor value and it is only a vague indicator of what your character is actually doing.

    "Armor Value" is basically the input to some function that calculates your armor's bonus to your Common Damage Mitigation. Your total CDM = Base CDM + f(Armor Value) + Mods.

    Right now, the only thing that is known about f(Armor Value) is that going from 1 to 100AV gives more CDM than 1001 to 1100. I played a Guardian up to level 30-something in the last Closed Beta round. My shield by itself had over 400 AV on it, which was a big chunk of my total AV but counted for almost exactly 5% CDM. I think the other 700-800 points made at least 20%.

    However, every time I actually went out and gathered data on my Guardians the CDM worked. The only weird thing was that without the armor I was actually getting hit for more than I'd calculated from with the armor on.

    As in, if I had 35% AV with all my stuff equipped and something was hitting me for a minimum of 45 common, it should have an unmodified minimum damage of ~69 common. However when I took my armor off and tried again, I'd always end up recalculating the unmodified minimum higher than 69. I don't know why that is, but it actually ends up making the armor more useful.

    So in your case, Armor Value is meaningless because:
    1) No one knows what you mean by doubling it, you went from X to 2*X, if X is like 20 then going to 40 isn't going to help you a lot.

    2) No one knows what effect that actually had on your CDM, which is the really important stat when it comes to this, not AV.

    3) The mob could've been doing Fire or Shadow damage, theoretically, which would mean that your AV really doesn't matter against that mob.

    4) The big thing is that the CDM actually works, afaik, like it says. If an even con level 10 mob hits you for 10 damage and you have 10% mitigation you'll take 9 damage (provided the 10 wasn't the mob's minimum damage I think). If that signature was only hitting you for 20's and 30's before mitigation, you wouldn't see a big change unless you were going from 10% mitigation to like 30%.

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