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Why I speak out against Vanguard
The question comes up a lot in these threads criticizing Vanguard: If you detest it so, why not just go play another game? Why hate on this one?
It's a valid question, and it deserves a response. I can't speak for anyone else, only me.
I'm that mythical happy gamer who doesn't like to get into heated battles about games. I find MMO's fascinating and even sometimes exhilarating, but they're just a small part of my life and hardly worth the violent passions and harsh words that so often come up in these posts. I rarely find cause to speak ill of another gamer's passions because so much of one's gaming experience is wrapped up in personal preferences and community experiences. To each, one's own, you might say.
But I can't stay quiet about Vanguard. Why?
Vanguard is, without a doubt, bar none, the most poorly designed and executed mmo I've ever encountered. And unlike most mmo's, where the cost of discovering a game is bad is measured in the tens of dollars, for too many, the cost of discovering Vanguard is a bad game is measured in the hundreds or even thousands of dollars needed to upgrade their systems to a point where they can reliably play the game.
That there is a small cadre of dedicated fans who seem unwilling or unable to look past the deeply flawed design and execution of the game is unquestionable. That the cadre is exceedingly small is also unquestionable: Vanguard ranks more than 1,000 places behind Star Wars Galaxies, of all titles, on Amazon.com's current sales rankings. One thousand places!!!!
That's a jaw-dropping statistic for a barely two-month-old AAA game, and shows that its rejection extends far beyond a purported tiny population of forum trolls with a personal axe to grind.
So while I loved the idea of Vanguard, defended it clear through open beta and still respect and feel for Brad McQuaid and his team, I also really feel an obligation to tell people what I know and try to steer them clear of a potentially costly experience.
It's not that I hate Vanguard. It's not that I hate you, Vanguard fan. It's not that I'm bitter and withered on the inside. And it's not that I couldn't take some mythically tremendous intellectual challenge the game is said to impose on its players.
It's just that I, and millions of other mmo gamers, think the game is really badly done and we'd hate to see you throwing money at a problem that's not going to get better.
It's a valid question, and it deserves a response. I can't speak for anyone else, only me.
I'm that mythical happy gamer who doesn't like to get into heated battles about games. I find MMO's fascinating and even sometimes exhilarating, but they're just a small part of my life and hardly worth the violent passions and harsh words that so often come up in these posts. I rarely find cause to speak ill of another gamer's passions because so much of one's gaming experience is wrapped up in personal preferences and community experiences. To each, one's own, you might say.
But I can't stay quiet about Vanguard. Why?
Vanguard is, without a doubt, bar none, the most poorly designed and executed mmo I've ever encountered. And unlike most mmo's, where the cost of discovering a game is bad is measured in the tens of dollars, for too many, the cost of discovering Vanguard is a bad game is measured in the hundreds or even thousands of dollars needed to upgrade their systems to a point where they can reliably play the game.
That there is a small cadre of dedicated fans who seem unwilling or unable to look past the deeply flawed design and execution of the game is unquestionable. That the cadre is exceedingly small is also unquestionable: Vanguard ranks more than 1,000 places behind Star Wars Galaxies, of all titles, on Amazon.com's current sales rankings. One thousand places!!!!
That's a jaw-dropping statistic for a barely two-month-old AAA game, and shows that its rejection extends far beyond a purported tiny population of forum trolls with a personal axe to grind.
So while I loved the idea of Vanguard, defended it clear through open beta and still respect and feel for Brad McQuaid and his team, I also really feel an obligation to tell people what I know and try to steer them clear of a potentially costly experience.
It's not that I hate Vanguard. It's not that I hate you, Vanguard fan. It's not that I'm bitter and withered on the inside. And it's not that I couldn't take some mythically tremendous intellectual challenge the game is said to impose on its players.
It's just that I, and millions of other mmo gamers, think the game is really badly done and we'd hate to see you throwing money at a problem that's not going to get better.
Comments
Great post!
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Why would someone even care what you think of this game? Yes, you speak the truth but I guess people have figured Vanguard's faults out already without you and there's been an overwhelming amount of these posts already.
[/useless rant]
"I actually cook my meat with nothing but my burning hatred for vegetables"
I come up here for the entertainment value of reading all the posts bashing Vanguard, and the responses (eerily thinning out lately) bashing the bashers.
I'm only disappointed the OP didn't provide any entertainment. It was very well written and pretty much mirrors my own feelings about the game.
Good post but I have to disagree with your last statement. The game is infact getting better.
It seems that alot of people got burned because they fell for the hype (AGAIN) and have a right to feel the way they do. I was in vanguard beta and was dead set on not buying this POS mmo when it went retail but a friend of mine talked me into it. I wasn't burned by the hype machine because I knew full well what I was getting into so I don't have the feeling of being duped like some posters here. I also think that Anarchy Online still holds the number one title of crappiest release ever followed by SWG's NGE fiasco and it willl take a diliberate attempt to do worse. Vanguard had to release early because they simply ran out of time and money and if I was in their shoes I would have done the same thing. What would you have done? Throw away all the time and work you did or put it out there and hope that the fans would support it?
I don't know when it happend but for some reason the more I played Vanguard the more I started to like the game, even with the MASS amount of bugs. I was in LotRO beta and even stopped playing it because I found Vanguard to be more to my style of mmo and when it didn't crash to desktop I was actually having fun. I have not had any of the game breaking bugs like rollbacks that others have had and if I did I would be the next guy calling Vanguard a waste of money, but so far for me it has not been.
And that is why I choose to support Vanguard...........well, until Warhammer and AoC comes out.
The Brave Do Not Fear The Grave
The whole Vanguard saga is fascinating. It is quite possibly the worst design and implementation of a MMORPG ever. Every aspect of the game sans the graphics were done poorly. Even the graphics contribute part of the problem as Vanguard is quite possibly the worst performing game in the history of gaming.
The drama involved with Microsoft and now SOE is soap opera good. Every review of the game gets tons of traffic as people stick up for the game.
I can understand why people like the game. I too like the "idea" of the game but the actual game is a pitiful realization of that "idea". It is almost fraudulent in that they released a game that is only about 50% complete and are making people pay for it.
The whole story is just fascinating and I enjoy watching it's downfall. Not that I have any animosity towards Brad, SOE, or certainly not the Sigil Development Team but they are just getting what they deserve by releasing such a halfhearted product on the community. It is almost bizarre that they could even release such a product.
I would be very interested to know who put up the money for this. Aren't they demanding their money back or suing Sigil in some way?
Sony put up the money to buy out Microsoft - despite Brad assuring everyone at the time that Sony had no financial stake.
So they are just trying to recoup their investment.
I never spoke-out against a game in my life until Vanguard.
I was also censored then subsequently banned for speaking-out against Vanguard. From all bad things comes something good, I found MMORPG where there is no censorship and many posts are thoughtful, interesting, and informative. I try to visit daily.
I continue to visit the Vanguard section because it is interesting, still developing, and I also no longer have a single friend that plays the game (they ALL quit!).
Vanguard is so bad people are genuinely upset about it and need to express it.
I for one am also facisnated by the saga that is "Vanguard". Touted as something awesome by Brad, his "Vision embodied" sort of proclimations... It was a game that was going to raise the bar of MMO's in quality, and experience.
Yet it's a complete, and unmitigated disaster. I don't CARE if you love the game and are having a blast either, that's not the point, you're a minority of a minority. What matters is that games like Vanguard do something for us gamers, and that is improve future MMO's.
What's really scary if you stop to think about it, is if Brad had those three extra months he whined about in some post on FoH I think it was, he might have shipped V:SoH that was just stable enough to reach that critical business subscription level of 300k to make the game profitable, but just barely so. And that's what's scary... they weren't too far off from making the game at least financially viable. Had they done that, it would have been bad for the MMO industry, proving that people will pay for beta... which too many are as is with this game but that's another debate.
Vanguard failed because of Brad, and the lasting effect fortuntly I believe will be good for all us gamers.
Always change your signature.
Uhhhhhh...hate to burst your self righteous bubble, but OF COURSE VANGUARD IS 1000 PLACES BEHIND SWG IN SALES IT'S ONLY BEEN OUT FOR 2 MONTHS! I mean really you couldn't figure that out on your own? And if you upgraded your computer to play Vanguard then I'd say MMORPGS are a larger part of your life than you'd like to admit.
Please reanswer the question with a VALID reason for you coming here to post about how much you hate Vanguard instead of just moving on with your life.
Of course, WoW outsold all SWG sales in one day.
His point is valid. Now that MMO's are much more mainstream, Vanguard should have made a bigger splash. Especially against the notorious SWG.
Of course, WoW outsold all SWG sales in one day.
His point is valid. Now that MMO's are much more mainstream, Vanguard should have made a bigger splash. Especially against the notorious SWG.
Do you have proof that WoW actually outsold SWG in one day? You also have to remember that SWG wasn't out as long 3 years ago when WoW was released so obviously the sales numbers were lower, in effect making them easier to beat.
And anyways what does it matter who outsells who? What does any of that have to do with anything?
WoW is an anomaly, and one that I'll never understand. Oh, and just to counter a point you made, not all MMO's are mainstream. Actually, to be honest, WoW is the only real mainstream MMO, and that is STRICTLY due to Blizzard's reputation.
Oh, and to add one more thing. The OP says that he and "millions of other MMO players" think the game sucks, but Vanguard has only sold 200k (last I heard atleast) copies of the game. So basically the OP, and 800k other people who have never played the game hate it.
Good riddance.
But I am tired of posts bashing VG and other games in these forums. The OP can be forgiven, he appears to be an infrequent visitor to the site and truely came here in an attempt to warn other's aways based on his own experience with the game...
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I agree with all of your post but this one.
Actually, Dark and Light is the worse poorly designed and executed mmo. Vanguard is probably a good second after that.
Vangaurd would have worked if The CEO stayed the creative director and someone with maybe an MBA would have been in charge with financing and steering the company. A solid company would have made Vanguard a much tighter game
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
My argument is based on the overwhelming rejection of the game by the mmo players as demonstrated in the sales figures I cited, as well as my own personal experience. My comment about "millions" refers not only to those of us who have played and rejected the game, but also those who watched from afar and have declined to play based on the overwhelming mass of evidence against it.
Your posts demonstrate exactly the kind of attitude I'm talking about ... making this personal by calling me self-righteous, trying to make it appear as if I am somehow personally embittered by Vanguard's failure, and accusing me, without any evidence whatsoever, of bashing the game without personal experience. To the contrary, I did, in fact, play Vanguard from Beta 3 on through about six weeks of subscription time.
You'd do well to stick to facts and perhaps ask questions if you think there's reason to doubt my sincerity, rather than leaping to unsupportable conclusions.
But I am tired of posts bashing VG and other games in these forums. The OP can be forgiven, he appears to be an infrequent visitor to the site and truely came here in an attempt to warn other's aways based on his own experience with the game...
Oh, I take no issue with those who have played and do not like the game. I personally have cancelled my account, and after this billing period is up will be taking a break. What I DO however take issue with is people making crap up, and inflating numbers to suit their fragile arguements. Had the OP just said "This game is not for me" it would be fine, but instead he brought up rediculous points and made stuff up to make the game seem worse than it is.
Really very noble of everyone coming here to trying to protect us from the evils of sigil. To bad you guys dont have as much passion for more serious issues such as human rights, famine etc...
Please give me a break with this B.S. , I dont buy it for a second. The truth is some people love to bash , its in thier nature, it makes them feel better. Especially when they feel an icon , say like brad mcquaid, screws up they love love love to say , I told you so brad , I told you to wait , brad should of listened to me and then vsoh would of been a success. Yeah right like any of you know 1/10 of whats its like developing an mmo.
But hell, its yer life, if it makes you feel better hanging out on forums bashing a game you dont even play ....good luck ta ya.
My argument is based on the overwhelming rejection of the game by the mmo players as demonstrated in the sales figures I cited, as well as my own personal experience. My comment about "millions" refers not only to those of us who have played and rejected the game, but also those who watched from afar and have declined to play based on the overwhelming mass of evidence against it.
Your posts demonstrate exactly the kind of attitude I'm talking about ... making this personal by calling me self-righteous, trying to make it appear as if I am somehow personally embittered by Vanguard's failure, and accusing me, without any evidence whatsoever, of bashing the game without personal experience. To the contrary, I did, in fact, play Vanguard from Beta 3 on through about six weeks of subscription time.
You'd do well to stick to facts and perhaps ask questions if you think there's reason to doubt my sincerity, rather than leaping to unsupportable conclusions.
Ok, well I'll admit I have no idea how amazon ranks their items so my bad on that one.
As for the rest of my posts I stand by what I said. You are definitely embittered towards the game or you wouldn't be here posting about it. It's like I said, I have cancelled my account and have found the game not really what I am looking for, but you don't see me posting negative crap about it. On the contrary I usually defend the game for the people who like it because there is no reason they shouldn't be able to like it, and have a forum where they can express that without being berated by haters. Now of course I do believe that people who don't like the game should have equal right to express that, but it's getting out of hand on these forums.
I agree with all of your post but this one.
Actually, Dark and Light is the worse poorly designed and executed mmo. Vanguard is probably a good second after that.
Vangaurd would have worked if The CEO stayed the creative director and someone with maybe an MBA would have been in charge with financing and steering the company. A solid company would have made Vanguard a much tighter game
Dont mean to be mean Enigma , but seriously dont you have anywhere better to go then these forums? Is playing mmos your hobby or bashing them?
To the OP :
I can understand why you are posting but the problem mostly lies in the fact that the same people often keep on bashing a game on this site.That's when it starts to look more like flaming then stating your opinion.Look at the SWG forums here , all you see there all day is clashes between the haters and the lovers.Now if you want this part of the forumto turn into the same crap as the SWG section please go on.
The problem is that people who come here for questions about the game that are not about gaphix or system demands etc get their topic hijacked within seconds and most threads end out in pure flaming between the haters and lovers.This site is meant to let people see the good and bad side of a game that is true....but it mostly is to inform people about the available games.
Again i am not saying you can't say anything bad about the game but to keepon doing it does not help you in any way.Soon you'll find yourself a bash-addict like i see for instance in the SWG and the eve online forums here.Same people who keep bashing and hijacking threads .As a sidenote this also gives you a disbelieve.If i look on these forums and see the same people who keep bashing a game on and on then i just start ignoring replies they make and at a certain point i even begin to "dislike" them for it.
I played archlord..found it the most crappy game i ever played , so what did i do?I posted 1 post, yes 1 , on the archlord forum on mmorpg.com as a reply to someone who asked how the game was.I played SWG and do again since a few months.I know what a company like SOE can do to your game yet i have no hard feelings or grudge what so ever.If i don't like the game i leave..they loose my subscription and that's that.If a game really is bad in the end it'll die anyway so why would i start a hate campaign.Fact is if people want to try it they will no matter what you say on these forums.
btw i don't play vg...nor do i plan to
For all you know, they might actually like the game.
I have seen the same thing back with ArchLord and RF Online, and If I would get a dollar for everytime I'd hear someone say: "I'm glad I actually gave the game a try", I'd be looking for a new car right now.
Let people make up their own mind. if you don't like the game, thats fine, but just leave it alone. there is no need to push your opinion on other people.