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Can a "new EQ" make it in this day and age?
FrostWyrm
Member Posts: 1,036
As we all know, Sigil's original claim for Vanguard was to bring back the challenge and immersion that older games like EQ were famous for. Of course the reality of it is that Vanguard has not done this, and Sigil doesn't seem to plan on sticking to this method in the future (what with the constant XP increases, and such).
If someone did, however, make a game that mimiced EQ's gameplay in every way; was every bit as tedious in leveling and crafting; every bit as punishing for dying; every bit as vast in scope; every bit as diverse in lands to explore; every bit as brutal as EQ's faction, quest mob hunting, and what have you, could it survive among today's MMORPG gaming audience?
I think if someone truly captured all the stuff that earned EQ the nickname "Evercrack", and make it just as immersive, and the lore just as interesting as EQ, it could work just as well now as it did back then. Problem is, nobody has really done that to this day.
So what was it that made games like EQ (and I guess DAoC, I've just never played that one) so enthralling that nobody can seem to mimic today?
I think part of what made EQ so immersive was the fact that there was almost no background music. I know, that sounds stupid at first, but think about it. All you hear is ambient sound, just your surroundings. Hearing background music makes you more aware that you're playing a game. It stops you from getting lost in the feel of exploring a world.
EQ's 3rd person cameras were a nightmare to say the least. Not sure about others, but I played in first person because of this. Again, that made it feel more like actually being in your character's shoes (I played an Iksar so I didnt really wear shoes, but you know what I mean).
There was a more dynamic skill learning system than most games these days have. Not everyone of the same class/lvl necessarily had the exact same set of abilities since many had to be quested for, or bought from a particular merchant that may not have been easy to get to. This made the characters feel less cookie-cutter than many of todays MMO's.
Choosing a race had more than just a cosmetic affect on your character. Each race had noticable advantages and disadvantages over others, which added more uniquity to your character.
Speaking of uniquity, the ability to dye your equipment was an awesome way to avoid running into as many dopplegangers of yourself that you find nowadays.
Leveling wasn't linear. There were a multitude of areas you could go to to lvl up at any given lvl range, whereas in today's MMO's you're lucky if there's more than 1.
Then there was faction. You had to be careful where you treaded and who you killed, and gaining one group's trust usually meant another would want you dead. Even within cities there were multiple factions. Straying into the wrong part of town meant getting your ass handed to you back then, this I know for sure....did I mention I played an Iksar?
Much of this stuff would be fairly simple to implement into a new MMORPG. Some things not so simple. But few companies are ever willing to risk trying something new, even when "new" is reviving the old. And really, who can blame them, after all it does involve risk. They say trends tend to repeat themselves, so maybe the time for such a game just isnt right at the moment, but I definately think it could be done, and done well if someone were willing to give it a shot, and actually stick to their guns. It wouldnt need to be a 30-something million dollar project, or feature full voice acting for each NPC in the game. A fraction of that money could be used to make a really good game that's maybe not so theatrical.
If someone did, however, make a game that mimiced EQ's gameplay in every way; was every bit as tedious in leveling and crafting; every bit as punishing for dying; every bit as vast in scope; every bit as diverse in lands to explore; every bit as brutal as EQ's faction, quest mob hunting, and what have you, could it survive among today's MMORPG gaming audience?
I think if someone truly captured all the stuff that earned EQ the nickname "Evercrack", and make it just as immersive, and the lore just as interesting as EQ, it could work just as well now as it did back then. Problem is, nobody has really done that to this day.
So what was it that made games like EQ (and I guess DAoC, I've just never played that one) so enthralling that nobody can seem to mimic today?
I think part of what made EQ so immersive was the fact that there was almost no background music. I know, that sounds stupid at first, but think about it. All you hear is ambient sound, just your surroundings. Hearing background music makes you more aware that you're playing a game. It stops you from getting lost in the feel of exploring a world.
EQ's 3rd person cameras were a nightmare to say the least. Not sure about others, but I played in first person because of this. Again, that made it feel more like actually being in your character's shoes (I played an Iksar so I didnt really wear shoes, but you know what I mean).
There was a more dynamic skill learning system than most games these days have. Not everyone of the same class/lvl necessarily had the exact same set of abilities since many had to be quested for, or bought from a particular merchant that may not have been easy to get to. This made the characters feel less cookie-cutter than many of todays MMO's.
Choosing a race had more than just a cosmetic affect on your character. Each race had noticable advantages and disadvantages over others, which added more uniquity to your character.
Speaking of uniquity, the ability to dye your equipment was an awesome way to avoid running into as many dopplegangers of yourself that you find nowadays.
Leveling wasn't linear. There were a multitude of areas you could go to to lvl up at any given lvl range, whereas in today's MMO's you're lucky if there's more than 1.
Then there was faction. You had to be careful where you treaded and who you killed, and gaining one group's trust usually meant another would want you dead. Even within cities there were multiple factions. Straying into the wrong part of town meant getting your ass handed to you back then, this I know for sure....did I mention I played an Iksar?
Much of this stuff would be fairly simple to implement into a new MMORPG. Some things not so simple. But few companies are ever willing to risk trying something new, even when "new" is reviving the old. And really, who can blame them, after all it does involve risk. They say trends tend to repeat themselves, so maybe the time for such a game just isnt right at the moment, but I definately think it could be done, and done well if someone were willing to give it a shot, and actually stick to their guns. It wouldnt need to be a 30-something million dollar project, or feature full voice acting for each NPC in the game. A fraction of that money could be used to make a really good game that's maybe not so theatrical.
Comments
Vanguard has come very close to recapturing that UO feel, but they've been changing the game since beta to match the other games already flooding the MMO market.
I have no idea what was so special about those first generation MMOs except maybe that they were first generations, and as such left you with a feeling that can never be regained (like most things in life).
I agree with your post. I honestly don't think developers are as creative now as they were in the late 90s, so they'll never be able to recapture that EQ1 feel, they'll only be able to copy aspects of it that they think made it important...but didn't really. Even looking at single player games, the RPGs in the late 90s were like DaVinci classics compared to the mainstream tripe that gets released today.
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Life sucks, buy a helmet.
They got away from this to consolidate newbies. Ever tried to go back to EQ? All the newbie areas but 3-4 are barren. Vanguard is running into this problem now and in some areas like the Goblin starting area have had barren newbie areas since day 1 pretty much.
Well EQ had music but it was short (30 seconds) and most people turned it off because it was nothing more than a glorified midi. But I kinda agree that since most turned it off all you heard was the ambient sounds which seem to be somewhat lacking in current MMO's. I remember in AC1 running around and being in town and hearing chimes or being in a undead dungeon and hearing moaning, things scraping in the dark, etc...
Because of how MMO's are made and their current 3d tech, I don't think we will ever see this again.
One thing I liked about EQ is that even if you were a enemy, there almost always was a way you could sneak in and get to where you needed. Most MMOs if they have faction don't have this option. And in most MMOs Faction is something that can't be changed by generic hunting of mobs. Kill mob x, you lose faction with x and z but gain with y.
The race you choose has little significance to your class; faction is a joke as you can become tollerated by just about anyone in a matter of half an hour with no penalty to any other group that is even possible to become liked by to begin with; there's very little in "noticable" character customization; and the lore is far less than interesting.
I'm not calling Vanguard a bad game, in fact I'm glad you enjoy it, but it doesnt come close to delivering what was promised, or what it's predecessors brought.
The reason that EQ worked as well as it did back then is because it was really the first game of its kind. Sure, you had Meridian 59 and Ultima Online before then, but those games weren't in the same league as EQ. It was a novelty, simply because it was a new game type. For most people, it was the first experience that they would have with the MMO genre. In addition, it had no real competition, which is one of the primary reasons that it achieved the success that it did. After 2nd generation MMO's like EQ2 and WoW came out, and they stripped out all the tedium and BS that EQ had, most people breathed a sigh of relief and wondered how the hell they ever liked EQ1 so much to begin with.
It wasn't immersive and interesting because it was put together well or a great game. It was immersive because it was something most people hadn't experienced before. People don't want to work a 2nd job when they log in to a game, they want to have fun. The elements that first generation MMORPG's like EQ1 had weren't good elements that modern game developers would try to recreate. They were learning curve errors that were made because first generation MMO devs only had text based MUD's and regular RPG's to draw experience from.
My opinions on this come from experience too. I started playing EQ1 back in November of '99, first year of release. I used to play 12 hours at a time some days. After playing into the Kunark days, then leaving to try Asheron's call, I gave up on MMO's for 5 years. Then in 2005 I tried out WoW, which I ended up playing for a year and a half, and also renewed my interest in the MMO genre. I've also played EQ2, Vanguard:SoH, Guild Wars, City of Heroes, tried out free trials for DAoC, EVE online, DDO, and now LOTRO beta, as well as several free-to-play MMO's. Just recently, I started to get the urge for some of the old EQ1 Nostalgia. After debating it for a while, I ended up picking up the Titanium edition boxed set last week. Although it was nice to run through Rivervale, and Misty Thicket, and Halas, and all the old places, once I began adventuring again, it was a chore more than a game. Running into Blackburrow and getting a train out of nowhere with 6 mobs. Having to zone to avoid death because the mobs aren't leashed. When I did die, having to run through the Plane of Knowledge, porting to Everfrost/Halas, then running to my body. Those things just aren't fun. The nostalgia wore off quick and I realized that I was just wasting time that I could be using to play other games that are more fun.
When a game comes out that focuses on the path, rather than the destination, then we will again see the magic that made EQ so wonderful in its heyday.
EQ was not about raiding until Velious came out, even then it was not too hardcore. Now, every game including EQ is about hardcore raiding. Its not good for the genre. There is absolutely zero RP in this genre, atm.
Then again, some people are true masochists who believe that tedium is required in MMORPGs; and anyone who can't take being bored for hours/days in order to progress anywhere 'wants their game spoonfed to them' or are somehow not hardcore.
The reason that EQ worked as well as it did back then is because it was really the first game of its kind. Sure, you had Meridian 59 and Ultima Online before then, but those games weren't in the same league as EQ. It was a novelty, simply because it was a new game type. For most people, it was the first experience that they would have with the MMO genre. In addition, it had no real competition, which is one of the primary reasons that it achieved the success that it did. After 2nd generation MMO's like EQ2 and WoW came out, and they stripped out all the tedium and BS that EQ had, most people breathed a sigh of relief and wondered how the hell they ever liked EQ1 so much to begin with.
It wasn't immersive and interesting because it was put together well or a great game. It was immersive because it was something most people hadn't experienced before. People don't want to work a 2nd job when they log in to a game, they want to have fun. The elements that first generation MMORPG's like EQ1 had weren't good elements that modern game developers would try to recreate. They were learning curve errors that were made because first generation MMO devs only had text based MUD's and regular RPG's to draw experience from.
My opinions on this come from experience too. I started playing EQ1 back in November of '99, first year of release. I used to play 12 hours at a time some days. After playing into the Kunark days, then leaving to try Asheron's call, I gave up on MMO's for 5 years. Then in 2005 I tried out WoW, which I ended up playing for a year and a half, and also renewed my interest in the MMO genre. I've also played EQ2, Vanguard:SoH, Guild Wars, City of Heroes, tried out free trials for DAoC, EVE online, DDO, and now LOTRO beta, as well as several free-to-play MMO's. Just recently, I started to get the urge for some of the old EQ1 Nostalgia. After debating it for a while, I ended up picking up the Titanium edition boxed set last week. Although it was nice to run through Rivervale, and Misty Thicket, and Halas, and all the old places, once I began adventuring again, it was a chore more than a game. Running into Blackburrow and getting a train out of nowhere with 6 mobs. Having to zone to avoid death because the mobs aren't leashed. When I did die, having to run through the Plane of Knowledge, porting to Everfrost/Halas, then running to my body. Those things just aren't fun. The nostalgia wore off quick and I realized that I was just wasting time that I could be using to play other games that are more fun.
Well thats certainly one opinion, and a valid one, but I dont believe everyone from that era feels the same way. I definately think there are enough people wanting that old school type of MMO back to make one that's actually done well a success. Much like you, I've played a multitude of other games as well and enjoyed some for a short time, but none of them have the same long lasting value to me that EQ did. EQ wasn't my first MMO either. I've tried about a dozen of the "pick up and put down" MMO's that are flooding the market today, I, and I believe many like me, want something that will stay enjoyable for more than 2 or 3 months. 2 or 3 months isn't worth the price tag most of these games today carry. I'd like to play something that'll keep me interested for a year or more, and only 2 games have ever done that in the past, EQ being one of them.
Now when I say that, I dont mean the game should just be such an unbearable grind that it simply takes that long to get to max lvl, no I mean something that actually keeps me interested, for that duration. I played EQ for about a year and probably only explored half of what Norrath had to offer. The only reason I left was because of a conflict within my guild. Tried coming back much later only to find everything had been turned to crap. If it were still as good now as it was way back when, I'd still be playing it today, dated graphics and all.
So while you, as well as many others, may feel the way you do, I, as well as many others, feel the way I do also; I'm sure there are enough of us to make for quite the healthy subscriber base should a game that does what EQ did, and does it well, come along in the future.
Gotta love a$$holes who think everyone should like the exact same things as them.
I definitely understand where you're coming from, and I respect your opinion. But unfortunately for people who still want the EQ style of play, time and subscription numbers have shown that the mass majority does not favor a "hardcore" game. WoW didn't reach 8.5 million subscribers because it's the best game, it reached those numbers because it is pretty much the most casual and most accessible game. That's what most people are going for these days. I'd say that Vanguard is the closest thing to "attempt" the EQ style since the early EQ days. And the dev's are already scaling back the hardcore elements. They are throwing in double exp weekends, talking about adding fast travel, etc.
At the end of the day, all game companies are simply businesses, and all businesses are in the business of making money. If a "hardcore" game could pull in the subscription numbers enough to turn a nice profit, developer's and publishers would be going that route. But the numbers speak for themselves, and as a result, we're more likely to see a steady stream of WoW clones for the next bunch of years than we will ever see an EQ1 clone.
I'm not so sure a new EQ type game could make it. A large majority of EQ players that played EQ at release now have jobs, families and responsibilities. In other words their time is limited compared to when they were younger. It's kind of difficult to be a so called "hardcore" player unless you have a significant amount of time on your hands. Most people don't have that kind of time and are now considered "casual" or "carebear" type players.
Whether we like it or not, WoW changed things as far as MMO's are concerned. You can actually be a casual type player in WoW and still feel as though you've accomplished something gameplay wise. That's one area where I think Brad and Sigil missed the mark with Vanguard. Besides the bugs and performance problems the number one thing hurting the game right now is the amount of time it takes to get anything done. Most people don't have that kind of time anymore. The target audience for a game like Vanguard pretty much grew up. Nobody I know has the type of time the game requires unless they work odd shifts, have no social life or are unemployed.
On top of that add the short attention span kids that need a gratifying gameplay experience yesterday and it doesn't make for a very good environment for another EQ type game. Brad really missed his target audience and hyped the game up to people who have turned out to be a very small minority. Being hardcore doesn't take dedication or skill. It just takes a lot of time and that's one thing a lot people don't have.
I am one of the people who would like to experience the magic I felt when I played EQ, and had hoped Vanguard would deliver that (but it didn't). The truth is, you can't accomplish that with just game mechanics. If it was just a matter of making a checklist, any game company could (and would) do it.
There were a lot of intangibles to EQ that made it special. Some examples are:
1. An "oh wow" reaction to the world as you move around in it.
2. An ambiance to each zone that is a combination of art, lore, music, npcs, quests - these all come together to make each zone unique, special, purposeful and have their own personality.
3. Players need each other, and your reputation matters.
4. Challenge and time investment, but not tedium.
5. A class system where each class has signature abilities and feel and plays much different than other classes.
6. A thriving guild system.
7. A community not dominated by asshats.
8. LOTs of content, with more coming all the time.
9. Content and progression organized where you will be able to find other people to do things in the places you are adventuring, even after the game has been around for years.
10. A wide variety of ways you can improve your character, so that people don't log on and fixate on some specific quest, item, or goal, to where they don't want to group or play with anyone unless it furthers that specific objective.
11. Exciting without taking itself too seriously.
12. A sense that the world is "home."
Those are some of the major things that made EQ special, and they are largely absent in Vanguard. That is because Brad lost sight of what he and Jeff were doing when they made EQ. They have been heavily influenced since then by players of a mindset that the only thing that matters in these games is that you have better stuff than the next guy so you feel important. All he cares about is the hierarchy of player power. Who has what and how hard did they have to work to get it?
Another problem is that Brad has bought into Raph Koster's "world building" notions. EQ was a game and it was cool and fun. Vanguard is a "world" made by people who think like civil engineers, and it's very unfun that way. Grats on your world making e-peen Brad. Now you and Raph have stuff to lecture each other about over latte. Next time make a fun game.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
http://mmoreinsight.wordpress.com -- A Glimpse Into The World of Massively Multiplayer Games.
World of Warcraft really is the logical end of the original EverQuest style game design. They ramped up the good parts of EQ, killed off the bad and tedious parts, and set it all in a world that not only had an established fan base, but which had its own unique style and mythology.
The challenge now for developers is to try and carve out their own identity instead of rehashing the same old EQ-style game. Why? Because that design is over. It's evolved and has changed with the times, and is now being played by over 8 million people. It's time for something new instead of a return to the past.
Reading comprehension is your friend.
Reading comprehension is your friend.
Afcourse opinions are opinions, but what i fail to see is how someone can even make up words like "masochist" towards a GAME?
I have no idea what some people put themselfs thru in a game but i surtenly would hate to even consider playing a game that would feel anything like masochism, tedious i fully avoid and thankfully there is no tedius in Vanguard unless you let it, afcourse this can be done with every single game out there, if you want to be bored in a game you can, want to grind your ass off and feel happy about it you can, feel a game is not your style you can leave, feel the game is badly made make a better one, but when people would open their eyes they will see there are many gamers that just play a game for fun and if the game isn't fun they move on.
I think without question the emphatic answer is: NO.
Sorry, but your statement is just not true. WoW did a very good job of having multiple places to level. Additionaly, SWG did as well. LOTR does as well, EQ2 does and so does DAOC.
be bogged down with all those things that make the game a job. A lot of the people wanted VG to
succeed because it was hyped to be the follow on to EQ (it was sold as a trip back to the good old
days). Unfortunately, the vision got in the way and as a result they lost sight of the most
important things that people demand of games :
1. fun - not a job.
2. The "oh wow" factor
3. The icing on the cake aka polish
4. The ability to run the game without getting frustrated (bugs, xp loss, performance, etc.)
5. A game that was compelling from the beginning instead of making you wait 20 levels
Somehow, I think Brad and company lost sight of the fact that FoH is not representative of the
gaming public and catering heavily to that crowd makes the game unattractive to a huge
segment of the gaming population. I think they (Brad and company) got caught up in all the things
that were put in the later expansions of EQ but forgot the things that pulled people into the
game/world in the first place.
The problem seems to be that we each must decide for ourselves when the game mechanics
make it a job versus entertainment. What makes one person go "oh wow" may leave another
unmoved. The problem is trying to come up with a content mix that gives it broad appeal and also
appeals to the "hardcore". That is a pretty fine line to walk but it is certainly not impossible.
Maybe Im fortunate that I missed the whole EQ thing - by choice. Apart from a lack of polish, VG has (for me) achieved all of the other things on your list. Infact I cant believe you think you have to wait 20 levels for the game to be compelling, its as if your only experience of VG was playing a monk in beta 3
My first beta post was actually congratulating the dev's for designing characters and a world for them to play in that gave them that 20+ feeling we associate with other MMOs from very early in their life - In VG I was grouped and healing a full party in a dungeon at L6. Now I admit in beta 3 the character I play was pretty complete compared to some other classes, hence my Monk comment. Monks at the time didnt even get any skills until L6 by which time the DSC was on their 3rd skill up level.
The replies to my post were pretty much expected. The majority it seemed were berating VG for making the early game accessible, too rewarding and fun; some people still associate time with reward and Id recommend them L2, if L2 had PvE only servers.
The one thing I will say is that depending on your starter area the game can initially range from "blah" to "wow." E.g. Mekalia - home to the Gnomes - has a rich storyline, great starter quests (I wont give any spoilers) and is a wonderfully designed city...I recommend everyone who plays to level a Gnome even to only L8 to get some of the goodness. The Mordebi home, by contrast, is a couple of tents on a cliff that has you fighting scorpions and Kobold-like creatures for the first 6-8 levels of your character's life; very uninteresting, except it does have some rather nice views over Khal. Unfortunately if there is one town in the whole of the game that seems to hit everyones fps Khal is the main culprit.
It would be interesting to poll those who leave because they hated the game (as opposed to perfomance issues) to find out which starter city/character they chose. And to those about to start or having started but finding it a bit blah..dont be afraid to experiment with new characters. A new starter city can make all the difference as too can a different class.
I started as a varanthari in Lomshire Qualia. I like the area and the style. It fitted my barbarian race :-)
The quests were nice and guided me very good.
on the other hand i didnt like orcish starter area on kojan.
well i gotta admin, it fitted orcish behavior
there were some nice story line quests with a lot of fun in it.
Overall im still playing and enjoying the game. there are still some minor problems but they are not game stopping at all for me.
one thing i like most is the community. it reminds me back from my days in daoc. mostly mature players helping each other with quests, questions, buffs etc.
they made a huge effort the last 2.5 month and they dont stop atm with it.
if anyone want to know more about VG, drop me a note.
Cheers
Illuminato
lvl 39 varanthari druid *activ*
lvl 31 orcish dread knight *activ*
I currently play EQ, and EQ has so many flaws and problems with it that I neither know where to begin or end. I have played WoW and currently play LotR, and both games are by far superior (at least more fun). Nevertheless, I continue to play EQ because I have devoted so much time to it and have so many friends that also play. It is the game I am willing to play until WAR (or something better) is released.
After thinking about it for a while, although I only played a character to 27, Vanguard is also superior to EQ.
I tried the progression servers when they opened in EQ. They were fun for thirty minutes- after that it was too tedious. Many people feel the same way, hense they are merging the servers. I do not think EQ as it was would be very successful in todays market.
I'd play a game with as much demands as EQ,
apart from two things:
Corpserunning (Mind you I don't care if I lose items or XP, but the sheer time needed for corpserunning is just wrong.)
Forced grouping, a game is just That big and with That many players and I'm onlyy compatible with So many among them... Want to be alone in the crowd you know.. Not being tied down because I'm alone.
So Vanguard would do good with a decent amount of HARD solo content. Again, I don't mind spending hours upon hours going through quests as long as I CAN do it and I CAN do it without relying on others.
Now one might argue that MMOs are multiplay for a reason and that you SHOULD work in groups.
And, yes, indeed I agree, to an extent. Fact is that at one point or another (Or as in Vanguard, many points) you'll find yourself alone. The two groups avaible are discussing "Manginas" or "zomg IR epixx lootzor" or simply refuse to speak English.
In that case, forced grouping is BAD and that's how it is mostly as far as I know.
So, all in all I believe that the EQ formula of many options, deep gameplay and a rather long learningcurve is all good. EQ in itself isn't perfect in any way however so a straight down new EQ? Hell no...
Played so far: 9Dragons, AO, AC, AC2, CoX, DAoC, DF, DnL, DR, DDO, Ent, EvE, EQ, EQ2, FoMK, FFO, Fury, GW, HG:L, HZ, L1, L2, M59, MU, NC1, NC2, PS, PT, R:O, RF:O, RYL, Ryzom, SL, SB, SW:G, TR, TCoS, MX:O, UO, VG, WAR, WoW...
It all sucked.