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First MMO Outing: Rate WoW and DAOC class balance
mutantmagnet
Member Posts: 274
One thing that keeps coming up in discussions on the official WoW forums but is barely clarified is that Mythic doesn't know how to balance classes and this will be a huge blow to War.
Mythic doesn't have an official board and wow general isn't the place for that type of discussion so I'm posing this question here.
If you played both DAOC and WoW, how would you rate each company's first mmo at balancing classes for pvp? In addition, try to put in atleast three sentences that summarizes your feelings on each game's attempt at balance seperately, while the last sentence summarizes why you rate one game higher than the other or equal.
Lastly try not to bring up realm balance issues in this discussion. I've seen this come up too many times sidetracking topics.
Comments
first of all you will ALWAYS have players whining that classes aren't balanced in ANY game. This has nothing to do with the class not actually being balanced but moreso with the fact that everytime a wowkiddie gets pwnd by another wowkiddie they run to the forum and start screaming nerf. In my experience developers of MMOs have a pretty good grip of what's balanced and what's not.
Class balance is completely subjective. Gear, skill, connection, hardware etc. are way too strong factors to give anybody a clear perspective on this topic.
just mho
Ofcourse class balance is mostly subjective, that's why I asked for the summary. The rating itself is useless without the summaries to help figure out a person's ability to percieve class balance.
Mythic had problems, but I saw real attempts at fixing those problems. Buffbots were a huge imbalance. How did Mythic try to fix it? Put a range cap on all Concentration buffs. Assassin Classes were able to 1 shot softies and stay stealthed. How did they fix this problem? By not allowing stealth to remain when you attack. Midgard could chain stun you and kill at their leisure. Mythic implemented 1 minute immunity timers. When ToA artifacts came out, it required encounter credit, a book and an item drop that wasn't guaranteed. This brought about some overpowered players in PvP. To fix this, Mythic removed the item requirement. Now anyone that got credit could get the book and have the artifact. Was a huge step in fixing that imbalance.
Is DAoC balanced? Not hardly. There are too many early design decisions that caused them. However, I've seen Mythic work at trying to fix these problems and not just by knocking down one particular class and boosting another one. They tried to implement real fixes. And they've learned from their mistakes. That's why you don't see Stealth in WAR. No long duration buffs, no major CC and you will for the first time ever have collision detection in a PvP-centric game. Mythic is trying to provide a balanced game in WAR. Will there be imbalances? Probably. There are just too many variables in a game this size and players are far too creative to account for everything they can come up with. But the key is to remove the most glaring aspects of what cause imbalances.
I just made a post about this pretty much in the i don't mind unbalanced classes thread but i'll make it brief here....
WoW has very few classes and they balanced each class to be able to beat any other one. Blizzard's attempt to balance WoW is based on 1v1.
DAOC has many classes and is balanced in respect to a full group. Which when you take one class out of that group and pitch it to another... the balance is unlikely to remain.
Which is why I say that WoW isn't even an RPG, because each role can crush the other one, there are no large weaknesses within any of the classes. Weakness does not mean unbalance.
and note that I think WoW is a poorly designed game, has nothing but pleasant landscapes that's it.
WoW will never be balanced until Blizzard decides to put up barriers on what classes with what specs can do what.
Giving each class the ability to DPS is fine, BUT when you infringe on another classes boundries what is the point of that class? If shadow priests want to DPS then completely take away the ability to heal. As it stands they can heal and be top dps. Warlocks, you can Dot, have a pet, or do DD, no in between crap. Druids, are a hole bag of crap that seems like a good idea but in reality no one is satisfied with jack of all trades master of none. Warriors, you can either take damge or do damage, to do damage you should be forced into leather or mail and take substantially more damage, basically a rogue. Hunters should RELY on pets not have a pet for a bit of extra damage. Why on gods green earth do rogues get CoS?
Honestly Blizzard needs to set up class goals like they originally had and stick with them and balance would be much easier. Instead everyone has a part of every other class and everyone gets jealous. Priests should DPS better than a mage, Warlocks shouldn't be able to kill things as quick as a rogue. Warriors shouldn't be able to take huge hits that would kill a rogue and outdps them, etc. All in all Blizzard needs to be original and not reuse the same old ideas over and over. How many classes have clearcast now?
I won't argue over the reality of the game but I have to point out this is wrong in terms of defining Blizzard's own ideals.
A CM directly stated that classes are balanced for group play in regards to both raiding and pvp. Classes are supposed to rely on each other to make up for deficiencies. This makes sense if you go back around a year and a half before that declaration another CM stated classes were designed so that a class with certain attributes has the most counters for those attributes. For instance, Rogues, warriors and hunters are physical classes and as a result should have the most means of dealing with physical attacks. Rogues and warriors primarily are melee; while hunters are a range melee hybrid with a greater emphasis on range. This results in rogues and warriors having a greater proportion of anti melee tools while hunters in their unique role have tools against both. If the best counters for a class lay in the hands of the class itself it's pretty clear that Blizzard has always wanted classes to be dependent on each other.
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Thank you Distaste for defacting on this thread. Now that yo have gotten the WoW bashing out your system in this thread stay out of it.
I won't argue over the reality of the game but I have to point out this is wrong in terms of defining Blizzard's own ideals.
A CM directly stated that classes are balanced for group play in regards to both raiding and pvp. Classes are supposed to rely on each other to make up for deficiencies. This makes sense if you go back around a year and a half before that declaration another CM stated classes were designed so that a class with certain attributes has the most counters for those attributes. For instance, Rogues, warriors and hunters are physical classes and as a result should have the most means of dealing with physical attacks. Rogues and warriors primarily are melee; while hunters are a range melee hybrid with a greater emphasis on range. This results in rogues and warriors having a greater proportion of anti melee tools while hunters in their unique role have tools against both. If the best counters for a class lay in the hands of the class itself it's pretty clear that Blizzard has always wanted classes to be dependent on each other.
[edit]
Thank you Distaste for defacting on this thread. Now that yo have gotten the WoW bashing out your system in this thread stay out of it.
Well just because a CM said something doesn't mean it is true. Maybe you didn't like my way of saying it is based off of 1v1, how about I say that the game has no dependent classes, every class has the ability to dominate the other class. Every class in WoW is able to be as effective in PvP as another, depending upon their spec. This creates little dependency, and without dependency there is no mutual or effectiveness to being grouped other than an addition of force.
As with DAoC you have something like the midgard Healer class, it cannot kill anything on it's own, it can sit there and stun and keep something away from it for as long as it can keep it up. So if you combine that Healer with a Warrior, the Healer's effectiveness is hugely increased in value because it now is stunning for a reason other than just to get away. Just as a warrior will have trouble ever finishing someone off solo because they are slow and have very little "catching" ability, so when the Healer is there to supplement the warrior it makes the warrior's powerful dmg actual have the ability to be permanent. That is baseing balance on group play. Then looking back at WoW, every class has snares, immobilization, stuns and/or cc, etc. If each class is capable of the same things then that is not group balance.
It's wrong to say each class is equally successful against every other class. For example paladins will beat similarly equipped rogues practically 100% of the time. Similarly druids are effective against mages.
WoW also adds clear motivations to work in teams. Some combinations are not merely additive, as the previous poster commented, but abilities stack with each-other. For example:
Paladin + Warrior - who do you hit? Hit the warrior and give him extra rage to hit you back with whilst the paladin heals. Hit the paladin, and the warrior still hits hard whilst the paladin puts in stuns and dps and when he's about to drop he just bubbles and heals.
Warlock + Shadow priest - both increase a targets vulnerability to the others shadow damage. Their mutual ability to fear enemies can also lock opponents out of the fight.
Good two person teams in WoW can take down teams of 3, 4 or even 5 players.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
In my experience playing each class still has quite a unique feel. Playing a mage is nothing like playing a warlock, and playing a warrior is nowhere near the same is playing a rogue. That's good enough for me.
Presume you meant shouldn't DPS. Actually in my experience they can't, so no problem here. What they can do is dps reasonably and simultaneously, through their vampiric embrace, provide some amount of free healing to the rest of their team.
Why not? They are both primary dps classes. Each has their pro's and con's and is suitable for different encounters.
I agree that warriors shouldn't generally be able to out dps rogues. That's why Blizzard nerfed warriors recently. Didn't you notice?
Although you exaggerate the situation a great deal. Any warrior doing huge hits is probably specced for damage, not tanking, and hence can't take very many of them. And the warrior will not be able to dodge nearly as well as the rogue, and hence will be hit more. My experience of WoW is that in the later stages of the game a warrior spec'd and equipped for DPS will drop at almost exactly the same speed as a rogue if he draws aggro and doesn't get healed. The only advantage a warrior has is the ability to pull out a shield when necessary.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
BORRRRING!
If whats been said about DAOC is true then it sure sounds like it would be a borning existence most of the time.
My Main questions to you all are this,
1. Who has the time to wait around for someone to quest or battle with them because they themselves have no real offensive abilities?
2. How long do you have before you smash you keyboard when your entire gameplay experience is based on team play?
3. How much money does Mythic think they can afford to loose by tailoring a game to Hardcores and ex DAOC gamers.
4. When will people realize that WOW is basiclly diablo II but in a 3D MMO world, and not really a by the book RPG.
Its getting so old. All the comparisons.
Who cares about DAoC anyway. THis is a WAR forum. This thread should be on the wow or daoc forum.
and,
AOC will be exactly like WOW in the way the classes are balanced.
It matters because Mythic said there would be dependency among the classes. I didn't even know they had the same philosophy since DAOC but it is becoming more obvious their track record from that game is relevant in expectations for this game. How relevant remains to be seen but I have less doubt that it will be insignificant.
Very true, Blizzard has always said that they aimed at a rock/paper/scissors model to balance PVP, and it works. People only cry imbalance and nerf because they don't use strategy and tactics, constantly running in as paper and getting chewed up by a scissor. If they were to play smartly and bring a rock along with them, they'd win.
Now I agree that sometimes the rock/paper/scissors goes a little too far, as for some classes it is near impossible to kill other classes, and excel greatly at killing others...
I believe a "softer" rock/paper/scissors divide would be more advisable, where gear/skill can make up for difference, and from what I have seen, that is the approach they have taken.
1. Those very people
2. I think you'd go roll another class beforehand
3. --
4. This is exactly what I've been saying, in WoW each class is incredibly powerful just like in Diablo.
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DAOC is the most ballanced game I have ever played.
The classes that came out in the last expansion where a weee bit much and definatly more powerful than a few of the classic charachters.
40 seperate classes and I would say playing any one of them was equally as rewarding in the long run.
Lets take the "overpowered" Necromancer. Great for pve and grinding monsters, but didnt offer enough for mass keep pvp and offered nothing to group 8v8.
The "overpowered" healer. Yes he can heal, he can CC, and he wears chain..... but you cant kill anyone by yourself and can die to blue monsters you happen to aggro by accident. Cant solo pvp and offer little to keep sieges where no CC is involved.
The "overpowered" Vampire. Can kill anyone solo if they are unbuffed. But in 8v8 warfare where everyone has speed and everyone is buffed, their stats pale and make them huge liabilities.
See the nerfs blizzard made this patch that had everyone complaining? Well mythic would make killer nerfs like that every other week, and would make buff weak classes without hesitation and if the buffs where too powerful would yank them. People hate nerfs but lets be honest they are important part of the game for the sake of game stability. The company learns from its mistakes and will recant them if need be (take a look at the classic server and them admitting their whole EXPANSION was a mistake and deleting it) I have been waiting for the "non raid" server for 2 years now in wow, still nothing.
So, as hard as it is to balance 40 classes and 3 seperate realms. I would rate the game more equal than wow which has all the same classes and is only a TWO sided war.
Whatever the case, I think Mythic is diving for the middle point. WAR doesn't have 40 classes spread across the three realms, but it doesn't have the same 9 classes for every realm either. I think they're going the right way, simply because there's not too many classes, therefore needing blatant weaknesses and strengths in order to make them different from each other (DAoC), and not so little that you need to make everyone progressively the same or at least very similar in the RESULTS they can achieve in the end in order to maintain balance (WoW).
I think we can safely say that the whole thing is in good hands for now, and that they've learned from both their own experience, and from other games' experiences too (I bet they play WoW and DAoC all day
As an example in 5v5 healers could play an extreme role... being able to keep people alive for long periods.
But in a 20v20 battle if 10 players all focused on one target chances are that target would be dead before a heal could land.
Same thing for offense. If there is a class that can insta kill a player every 15 mins that may make a big difference in small matches. But in 20v20 or over a 3 hour raid it would make little difference. And instead AE attacks which are usually worthless for small scale become overpowered.
And for the healing part, Shaman > Healer. I actually got into a few long discussions about who was the primary healing class of Midgard. Healers are a CC class. Shaman are the primary healing class. Healers could heal, but just because the name said Healer, didn't mean that was their role. CC is a huge part of DAoC and any Healer that neglected their CC spec line hurt the team in small group encounters. If you compare the healers across all 3 realms, the primary healer in each one has the Heal Spec Line, the Buff Spec Line, and some form of damage line.
Clerics in Albion have Rejuv, Enhance and Smite.
Druids in Hibernia have Regrowth, Nurture and Nature.
Shaman in Midgard have Mend, Aug and Cave.
Healers match up much more closely with the Hibernian Bard.
Bard has Regrowth, Nurture and Music and Bards are the primary CC class of Hibernia.
So given all that, CC isn't really all that great in keep raids. Whenever I had a healer hit me with any kind of stun or mez, I would already have been moving out of LOS so it didn't allow for enemies on the ground to kill me and it activated my 1 minute CC immunity timer allowing me free reign for a minute to drop some nukes on the people on the ground.
When I played in Midgard, our Shaman was the primary healer backed up by the Healer for spot heals since his heals were never as good as the Shaman.