If TedDanson truly doesn't understand the success of WoW and considers it an anomaly, this alone is proof enough that he understands nothing about the gaming market. The OP's points were all valid, and Ted's attempts to pick them apart have only betrayed his own trollish nature.
I can understand why you are posting but the problem mostly lies in the fact that the same people often keep on bashing a game on this site.That's when it starts to look more like flaming then stating your opinion.Look at the SWG forums here , all you see there all day is clashes between the haters and the lovers.Now if you want this part of the forumto turn into the same crap as the SWG section please go on. The problem is that people who come here for questions about the game that are not about gaphix or system demands etc get their topic hijacked within seconds and most threads end out in pure flaming between the haters and lovers.This site is meant to let people see the good and bad side of a game that is true....but it mostly is to inform people about the available games. Again i am not saying you can't say anything bad about the game but to keepon doing it does not help you in any way.Soon you'll find yourself a bash-addict like i see for instance in the SWG and the eve online forums here.Same people who keep bashing and hijacking threads .As a sidenote this also gives you a disbelieve.If i look on these forums and see the same people who keep bashing a game on and on then i just start ignoring replies they make and at a certain point i even begin to "dislike" them for it. I played archlord..found it the most crappy game i ever played , so what did i do?I posted 1 post, yes 1 , on the archlord forum on mmorpg.com as a reply to someone who asked how the game was.I played SWG and do again since a few months.I know what a company like SOE can do to your game yet i have no hard feelings or grudge what so ever.If i don't like the game i leave..they loose my subscription and that's that.If a game really is bad in the end it'll die anyway so why would i start a hate campaign.Fact is if people want to try it they will no matter what you say on these forums.
btw i don't play vg...nor do i plan to
Nicely said, I like your term bash-addict , mind if i use it?
If TedDanson truly doesn't understand the success of WoW and considers it an anomaly, this alone is proof enough that he understands nothing about the gaming market. The OP's points were all valid, and Ted's attempts to pick them apart have only betrayed his own trollish nature.
I'll not get into a flamefest with you, but I'll say that I know enough about the gaming industry seeing as I am a gamer. What I was saying about WoW is that not all games can be expected to live up to those sorts of sales figures. Oh, and thanks for validating my attempts to "pick apart" his post by saying they "Betrayed" my "trollish" nature.
Really very noble of everyone coming here to trying to protect us from the evils of sigil. To bad you guys dont have as much passion for more serious issues such as human rights, famine etc... Please give me a break with this B.S. , I dont buy it for a second. The truth is some people love to bash , its in thier nature, it makes them feel better. Especially when they feel an icon , say like brad mcquaid, screws up they love love love to say , I told you so brad , I told you to wait , brad should of listened to me and then vsoh would of been a success. Yeah right like any of you know 1/10 of whats its like developing an mmo. But hell, its yer life, if it makes you feel better hanging out on forums bashing a game you dont even play ....good luck ta ya.
Yeah your right. Everyone loves to flame a liar.
I wonder why?
Could it be the same cause of famine and human rights violations is the same cause that let vanguard hit the market? By cause I mean any vice parallel to dishonest?
....
for the record i am a subscriber and currently enjoy playing vanguard but of the last two days i've been noticing something. That the glitchiness of the game is discouraging me.
The question comes up a lot in these threads criticizing Vanguard: If you detest it so, why not just go play another game? Why hate on this one?
It's a valid question, and it deserves a response. I can't speak for anyone else, only me.
I'm that mythical happy gamer who doesn't like to get into heated battles about games. I find MMO's fascinating and even sometimes exhilarating, but they're just a small part of my life and hardly worth the violent passions and harsh words that so often come up in these posts. I rarely find cause to speak ill of another gamer's passions because so much of one's gaming experience is wrapped up in personal preferences and community experiences. To each, one's own, you might say.
But I can't stay quiet about Vanguard. Why?
Vanguard is, without a doubt, bar none, the most poorly designed and executed mmo I've ever encountered. And unlike most mmo's, where the cost of discovering a game is bad is measured in the tens of dollars, for too many, the cost of discovering Vanguard is a bad game is measured in the hundreds or even thousands of dollars needed to upgrade their systems to a point where they can reliably play the game.
That there is a small cadre of dedicated fans who seem unwilling or unable to look past the deeply flawed design and execution of the game is unquestionable. That the cadre is exceedingly small is also unquestionable: Vanguard ranks more than 1,000 places behind Star Wars Galaxies, of all titles, on Amazon.com's current sales rankings. One thousand places!!!!
That's a jaw-dropping statistic for a barely two-month-old AAA game, and shows that its rejection extends far beyond a purported tiny population of forum trolls with a personal axe to grind.
So while I loved the idea of Vanguard, defended it clear through open beta and still respect and feel for Brad McQuaid and his team, I also really feel an obligation to tell people what I know and try to steer them clear of a potentially costly experience.
It's not that I hate Vanguard. It's not that I hate you, Vanguard fan. It's not that I'm bitter and withered on the inside. And it's not that I couldn't take some mythically tremendous intellectual challenge the game is said to impose on its players.
It's just that I, and millions of other mmo gamers, think the game is really badly done and we'd hate to see you throwing money at a problem that's not going to get better.
Dont worry son someday you will own a computer that can play it
Yeah your right. Everyone loves to flame a liar. I wonder why?
Could it be the same cause of famine and human rights violations is the same cause that let vanguard hit the market? By cause I mean any vice parallel to dishonest? .... for the record i am a subscriber and currently enjoy playing vanguard but of the last two days i've been noticing something. That the glitchiness of the game is discouraging me.
So your saying Brad is the cause of famine and all human rights violations...just a joke
Look if you feel like sigil lied to you in any way then fine flame them bash em ...whatever toots you horn, All Im saying is hanging out here for hours everyday ...and writing 1000 word essays on why vsoh sucks is pretty darn pathetic and sad... it is after all just a game
Why would someone even care what you think of this game? Yes, you speak the truth but I guess people have figured Vanguard's faults out already without you and there's been an overwhelming amount of these posts already. [/useless rant]
Everyone can post whatever they want, and everyone else has the right not to read it.
I come up here for the entertainment value of reading all the posts bashing Vanguard, and the responses (eerily thinning out lately) bashing the bashers.
I'm only disappointed the OP didn't provide any entertainment. It was very well written and pretty much mirrors my own feelings about the game.
I think responses to the bashers is thinning out because anyone with half a brain that see's the same names in every tread bashing a game is smart enough to relize there just SOE haters, and its the first chance theve had sence LucasArts trashed there jedi and there's nothing you me or anybody is going to say to stop them from trying to get there revenge.
Its sad and pathedic but at the same time i laugh all day long as i play vanguard at each and everyone of them , makes my day thinking about all that work they Put in getting a jedi, trashed in the blink of an eye lol
I doubt Sigil cares, Brad has stated many times he is only interested in a small slice because he figures (and rightly so) the market will be carved up by many games soon.
Call me a Bradite but I agree, WoW will find it increasingly more difficult to stay on top with a multiple of new games being released.
As for Vanguard being "Bad design" that is largely personal opinion as I think its one of the best game designs I have played since EQ1 but then I like camps, I like no instancing etc etc.
In fact this site is so full of negative "never happy" MMORPers, that I suspect once Warhammer, Conan and LOTR are released, many people will be posting "Don't buy this game its crap", whether the game deserves it or not.
Now playing: VG (after a long break from MMORPGS) Played for more than a month: Darkfall online, Vanguard SOH, Everquest, Horizons, WoW, SWG, Everquest II, Eve
Success is measured in millions these days. I doubt Sigil cares, Brad has stated many times he is only interested in a small slice because he figures (and rightly so) the market will be carved up by many games soon. Call me a Bradite but I agree, WoW will find it increasingly more difficult to stay on top with a multiple of new games being released. As for Vanguard being "Bad design" that is largely personal opinion as I think its one of the best game designs I have played since EQ1 but then I like camps, I like no instancing etc etc. In fact this site is so full of negative "never happy" MMORPers, that I suspect once Warhammer, Conan and LOTR are released, many people will be posting "Don't buy this game its crap", whether the game deserves it or not.
If they are pieces of crap like Vanguard then "yes" we will say that. If the handful of you masochists can keep the servers running more power to you. Have fun with that. Don't try to put Vanguard is the catagory with other games. It stands alone as being one of the worst games listed on the left side of this page.
Maybe it belongs to the worst on the left side.BUT it is only released shortly.
Don't overdo it...saying this game is the worst mmorpg out there and stands alone , for sure you can not be serious.Just like i can't say archlord is the worst mmorpg out there , allthough I hated it with every part in my body.You have the good and bad reviewed ones....vanguard falls under the category of bad reviewed.
So did archlord , dark and light , roma victor , auto assault , and many others.Some have crawled from under that rock , like archlord is doing and auto assault managed to do it a bit too.For the vanguard fans let's hope VG does the same...And for the haters i let's hope it doesn't.
Maybe it belongs to the worst on the left side.BUT it is only released shortly. Don't overdo it...saying this game is the worst mmorpg out there and stands alone , for sure you can not be serious.Just like i can't say archlord is the worst mmorpg out there , allthough I hated it with every part in my body.You have the good and bad reviewed ones....vanguard falls under the category of bad reviewed. So did archlord , dark and light , roma victor , auto assault , and many others.Some have crawled from under that rock , like archlord is doing and auto assault managed to do it a bit too.For the vanguard fans let's hope VG does the same...And for the haters i let's hope it doesn't.
I think I can argue that it is indeed the worst. Aside from the technical problems that plague it. Namely:
Numerous bugs.
Pitiful performance
Chunking delay/bug. Chunks are really mini zones without the zone screen in this game.
Those are technical problems that they may or may not be able to solve. Now let's look at the design of the game and gameplay. First of all the world is huge. This is great in theory but bad in practice. It takes a long time to get a group and after traveling an area once, the travel becomes extremely boring. The distance spreads the Players out so they feel like they are playing a single Player game. Next, the starter zones separate the races so that Players are not able to easily play together in the initial levels. As a Noob, in order to play with a friend you must roll the same race. Next, the game is group centric but does not introduce any new concepts to assist with that grouping outside of shouting "LFG". Now travel comes into play again as once you are able to get a group, you must potentially travel a long distance to join the group even if you are on the same continent. Next, the game advertises 3 spheres however, the diplomacy sphere is not connected to the other spheres in any way. The adventuring sphere is fun with a group but extremely tedious without one. Therefore, grouping is the only viable play style. However, due to the huge world again grouping is not viable. You can solo or quest in the game but it is just an afterthought. There is not real lore or storyline in the game for those who like the RPG side of the MMORPG equation. Finally and the game breaker, the game can not be played on an average User's computer. In order to meet the subscription numbers for a game that costs $30 million to produce I would imagine that they are targeting a Player Base larger than 50k. Even a lot of people who consider themselves "Core" Gamers do not have uber rigs to play the game. Vanguard is hiding behind the guise of "No MMOs are finished" or "It has only been out for a short time". That is for games that have relatively minor changes that need to be made. Vanguard is fundamentally broken from a design point of view. The Team that is trying to fix it does not even seem to be able to fix the technical bugs much less the fundamental design flaws in this game.
Its sad and pathedic but at the same time i laugh all day long as i play vanguard at each and everyone of them , makes my day thinking about all that work they Put in getting a jedi, trashed in the blink of an eye lol
Enjoy your time in Vanguard now because SOE will screw you over in the end.
And just to put off your inevitable response: I never had a Jedi in SWG. The thing with the NGE was that it ruined the entire game--not just Jedi.
You know, its not just the fact that the game is buggy as hell. I feel that Brad's Vision (TM) is flawed. He really believes that going "old school" is the right thing to do and everyone thought this would be the greatest game since sliced bread. The fact that the developers hyped their own game isn't the issue. Its the fact that so many of the "Vanbois" were so extremely vocal about the game's imminent success before, during and after beta. I feel this game was more hyped than pre-release WoW so that in contrast, it made what would be a disappointing game more spectacularly so.
I think there is a lesson to be learned here. These developing companies don't know everything. They don't necessarily know what players want out of a game or what will keep them coming back. They try to use tricks, such as game mechanics whose only purpose is to waste time rather than entertain you. I see paradigms like level grinds and repetitive and time wasting raids going the way of the Dodo, extinction. If WoW has proven anything, its that people do enjoy faster paced games and despite the fast leveling and ease of play, players stick around just as long if not longer than they did for EverQuest or Vanguard. The casual market is a powerful contender now and hardcore gameplay isn't the money maker it used to be.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Let's not lie to ourselves here. D&L might have been the most poorly designed game, but Vanguard has had the worstrelease. I play vanguard and I enjoy the game mechanics, but in terms of bugs, it is the worst hands.... down ever! You cannot debate this. I'm sorry if you do you haven't played the game. For example they just recently added in damage tags for dots. That is rediculous. That is so bad I can't even explain to you how far back this game is programming wise. I'm subscribing but this is my last month. After this back to WOW. Flame away but WOW has better graphics. Yes you heard me it does. Even on my uber system from alienware that I bought just to play this game I peak at 60 fps in the wilderness and 25 in cities. Do you realise how bad that is? My system is better than 99 percent out there, even the ones used to make this game. I have 4 gigs of ram. I have the latest nvidia card and I have the best intel processor that money can buy.
BTW. By better graphics I mean they look better. Sharper lines better textures etc. I don't mean fancy shaders that really do absolutely nothing to enhance the visual quality fo the game. Infact when you see lite in wow in rays and beams and this isn't even in vg you have to ask yourself why this game takes so much to run...
CRP.
True d&l might have been a failure, never played. But in terms of bugs I cannot imagine a game worse than VG. Infact there is none.
Let's not lie to ourselves here. D&L might have been the most poorly designed game, but Vanguard has had the worstrelease. I play vanguard and I enjoy the game mechanics, but in terms of bugs, it is the worst hands.... down ever! You cannot debate this. I'm sorry if you do you haven't played the game. For example they just recently added in damage tags for dots. That is rediculous. That is so bad I can't even explain to you how far back this game is programming wise. I'm subscribing but this is my last month. After this back to WOW. Flame away but WOW has better graphics. Yes you heard me it does. Even on my uber system from alienware that I bought just to play this game I peak at 60 fps in the wilderness and 25 in cities. Do you realise how bad that is? My system is better than 99 percent out there, even the ones used to make this game. I have 4 gigs of ram. I have the latest nvidia card and I have the best intel processor that money can buy. BTW. By better graphics I mean they look better. Sharper lines better textures etc. I don't mean fancy shaders that really do absolutely nothing to enhance the visual quality fo the game. Infact when you see lite in wow in rays and beams and this isn't even in vg you have to ask yourself why this game takes so much to run... CRP. True d&l might have been a failure, never played. But in terms of bugs I cannot imagine a game worse than VG. Infact there is none.
I have a suprise for you " Not everyone plays a game the same as you do" wow you must be suprised now, Not everyone playes the technical side of a game some don't care if they hit 1000 damage or they hit 860 damage, some like WOW graphics some don't, l liked the graphics when i was playing WoW but these day's i can expect to see better graphics and numerous games will have that, doesn't have to be MMO. That you encountered all those bugs very bad luck for you most gamers will leave a game if they encounter them as frequent some say on these forums, why is that some people are so incredible stupid to think other wise. Why is it that some people asume others wil always encounter the same problems. It is all about how you play a game, if you play a game just to have fun there is not much that can hinder you in Vanguard, are you in Vanguard cause you feel the need to be uber or the "first " or or or or or....then Vanguard will mostlikely not be your game. Yeah yeah Vanguard engine really needs to get better optimised for some people, still is very wierd to read that when seeing many people online ingame, really if the game was as bad as some of you would like to make us believe the game would be dead. I use to think the same about Archlord but thankfully i opened my eyes and I realised that not everyone likes the same games or gamestyle that i like, Only if i would be some anti-social person i would go over the Archlord forums and say the game is crap, but seeing people still playing that game regardless what i feel about the game there must be something good in it for other players as they seem to enjoy themselfs. Is that so hard to accept for some of you, are peoplethat narrowminded to think the world evolves around them only and must be lifed the way they want it too.
ps. By beter graphics you mean you own personal preference, you feel they are better, doesn't have to be the same for everyone else.
Thinking of thoses self inflated Luke "the force is strong in your family", all stopping playing a game they loved, in a kinda 4 years old kid throwing his toy against the wall move... its soooo funny and pathetic.
They broke theyr own toy and now they'r after other people toys... Halp halp!! Stay away bloody yodaphiles!
Vanguard is, without a doubt, bar none, the most poorly designed and executed mmo I've ever encountered. And unlike most mmo's, where the cost of discovering a game is bad is measured in the tens of dollars, for too many, the cost of discovering Vanguard is a bad game is measured in the hundreds or even thousands of dollars needed to upgrade their systems to a point where they can reliably play the game.
That there is a small cadre of dedicated fans who seem unwilling or unable to look past the deeply flawed design and execution of the game is unquestionable. That the cadre is exceedingly small is also unquestionable: Vanguard ranks more than 1,000 places behind Star Wars Galaxies, of all titles, on Amazon.com's current sales rankings. One thousand places!!!!
That's a jaw-dropping statistic for a barely two-month-old AAA game, and shows that its rejection extends far beyond a purported tiny population of forum trolls with a personal axe to grind.
What I love most is usually not the crap Vantrolls write in an effort to bash Vanguard . Rather its the people posting afterwards congratulating the OP for a well written and well founded post I mean lets see what the OP tells us about Vanguard in his post. I can discern 3 points.
1) Vanguard is the most poorly designed and executed MMORG he ever encountered...... Well thats it. Thats his whole argument.! I would accept someone posting this sentence followed by where does he feel Vanguards design is laking. Itemazation, encounter ai, interactivity between the spheres, faction based advancement, too much grind , too little grind, not enough quests, slow progression , fast progression, too few dungeons, class imbalance, too few classes , classes not playing different from one another, broken crafting, broken economy, reliance on drop loot as opposed to crafted and quest loot, small world, too big a world, long traveling times, too many ways for fast travel which makes loose immersion, lack of zoning , chunking which has problems.... I mean really what do you think its the major design flaws? And please say lack of helmets, or game is lagging when 30 people are around .
2) You need a top end end computer to smoothly play Vg. To that noone can disagree. This is indeed a design decision that was made by Sigil. Other games have gone that way. Everquest, SWG and EQ2 have gone down this road also. This indeed hurts a game , since few people can afford to have top end technology whne a game launches. Here you ahve to make a choice. Play and evaluate a game , and see if its worth your time and effort to continue playing it , knowing that at some point in the future all those technology related problems will be dealt with. Last time I made that choice was back in 2004 when i chose EQ2 over WoW, even though my computer could barely run it, crashed me all the time when I evaced from an area, took 5 mins to load a new zone, and would slower every new zone I went through. And that playing at extreme performance....hell even now 2.5 years after release, you still cant really run at extreme quality in zones like mistmoore castle. I did all these and have never regretted it, because I played what was in my opinion the best MMORG out there. Brilliant quests, good class balance, great community, great encounters etc etc. I would still be playing EQ2 if not for Vanguard. That because I never cared about all the critisism about the game when it came out on how poorly it performed on that days computers, how poor was the game etc etc.
3) Vanguard ranks 1000 places bellow SWG in amazon coms sales chart. This actually made my day. So mr Vantroll how many coppies do you think they are apart? One ? Two? Five? How many coppies do you think amazon com sells? I mean I hope amazons sales doesnt mean too much for overall sales of a MMORG. Poor LORTO is outselled 1 week before release by super paper mario, guitar heroes bundle (the one with the whole guitar ) and some pokemon titles.
To sum it up..... thinking before writting ...always good. Want to make a contsructive critisism about a game you dislike. We are all ears. You want to be a troll, that's not a problem also. Keep coming here for the entertaiment value. I seriously doubt I have seen a post in all the forums in here that wasnt 1. This game rocks 2. This game sucks 3. You are an idiot and Xboi for liking this game and not that. 4. No the Idiot and Ytroll is you who likes that game and not this.
PS English is not my maiden language and I cant bother to correct any spelling and syntax mistakes anjoy .
It is to broad, the only thing you brought up was the performance.
If it is the performance, then I completely agree, you have every right to say something.
What I don't get is the rest of it talking about the worst game and so forth(or close to). Mostly, I think people over exagerate about how bad the game is, because they lump it all in; because of the performance. I wonder if all this boils down to people not being able to find out what the game is like, because of it. Heh, I wouldn't doubt this a bit.
First time I tried VG, I was crawling all over the place. I already knew I needed to get a new Video Card, while the rest of my system is on the higher midrange side. I could play good enough, before the upgrade, to see I would be interested though(painfully hard to play though).
I only have 2 real cons about this game.
1. The performance is unacceptable, in general. The reason being is because they are missing out on a large population of potential customers, because the bad/unoptimized graphics engine. I'm pretty sure this want change a great deal, so unless you are willing to upgrade a thing or 2 in your computer; then it just isn't going to happen.
Point....stay clear!!!
2. They kind of pull a bait and switch on ya. Around level 12 to 15, the game begins to get to grindish(for someone who's solo/group ratio is something like 70/30, like myself). The reason is because the game is solo friendly until these levels. After you get to somewhere in that area though, quests start to get to group oriented. This is either because what you are asked to do says it requires a group or where you are sent there is a chance for a lot of aggro. So either way you are going to need a group.
The main good points I have with the game.
1. The combat is pretty good. Probably some of the best that has come out in any MMOG lately. Everyone but mage types are pretty proficient in melee. They take some of DAoC combat traits and improve on it a little. Mainly, you do chains based on certain reactions instead of so much positional stuff; like in DAoC. The diversity in different type weapons is pretty nice too. What I mean is say you like to crit more, well you go with Daggers or Shortswords. If you like the big numbers, then you go with something that is a 2-hander, that gives you chances to double crit on your crits. Other 1-handers have more of a balance of damage, their dps maybe higher than say an equal 1-hander of the Dagger or Shortsword variety.
One other thing, the animations aren't excellent; but they are more than good enough. I like a lot of flashies in combat, so it actually makes you feel like your specials; well are special.
2. The atmosphere is really good, it is more of the pull you in type. I guess this is more of a personal opinion, but it makes me feel more drawn in than the graphics in say WoW. I wouldn't say they are excellent graphics, especially for the system requirments, but they are between the mid and higher range somewhere.
The reason I brought up WoW, is because those type graphics don't draw me in so much. They aren't bad either, they just don't seem to pull me in much.
3. The quests are pretty good. I'm really not much of a quest junkie anymore, but they have some logic to them(a lot are FedEX style, but they have more story to them, than most games). There are very few that you just keep repeating. I don't really see much they can do about the FedEX style quests though, it is just part of the genre.
So, to the OP, what exactly do you not like? Or could you just not enjoy the game because the performance?
The reason I'm asking is because I keep seeing all these threads pop up about how bad VG is, but most say it is bad and never give any real detail. The performance issue almost always comes up, but is it because people never had the chance to enjoy the game because of this or what?
Uhhhhhh...hate to burst your self righteous bubble, but OF COURSE VANGUARD IS 1000 PLACES BEHIND SWG IN SALES IT'S ONLY BEEN OUT FOR 2 MONTHS! I mean really you couldn't figure that out on your own? And if you upgraded your computer to play Vanguard then I'd say MMORPGS are a larger part of your life than you'd like to admit. Please reanswer the question with a VALID reason for you coming here to post about how much you hate Vanguard instead of just moving on with your life.
Of course, WoW outsold all SWG sales in one day.
His point is valid. Now that MMO's are much more mainstream, Vanguard should have made a bigger splash. Especially against the notorious SWG.
Do you have proof that WoW actually outsold SWG in one day? You also have to remember that SWG wasn't out as long 3 years ago when WoW was released so obviously the sales numbers were lower, in effect making them easier to beat.
And anyways what does it matter who outsells who? What does any of that have to do with anything?
WoW is an anomaly, and one that I'll never understand. Oh, and just to counter a point you made, not all MMO's are mainstream. Actually, to be honest, WoW is the only real mainstream MMO, and that is STRICTLY due to Blizzard's reputation.
I hate to break this too you but Vanguard's direction is also heading mainstream (if it can.) Backed up by Brad Mcqauid himself.
I think the Hardcore MMO players of the 2000 era need to realise any game made with a 30 million dollar budget like vanguard simply cannot afford to operate as a niche title....end of argument.
Dimmit, a web troll is someone who deliberately posts inaccurate, misleading, or inflammatory material with the intend of inciting a flame war, derailing a thread or otherwise harassing the membership of an online community.
My post was in no way intended to do any of these things. Nor was my response intended to catalog the failings of Vanguard, as you criticize me for failing to do. It was designed as a response to posts, such as yours, in which Vanguard's critics are personally attacked as dim-witted, challenge-averse, basement-dwelling trolls embittered at the failure of Vanguard.
That you call me a troll and criticize me for failing to launch an adequate argument against Vanguard in a post designed to respond to personal attacks on Vanguard critics suggests strongly that you should take your own advice to me, which was to think before writing.
The whole story is just fascinating and I enjoy watching it's downfall. Not that I have any animosity towards Brad, SOE, or certainly not the Sigil Development Team but they are just getting what they deserve by releasing such a halfhearted product on the community. It is almost bizarre that they could even release such a product.
It is like watching a slow-motion train crash, isn't it?
Or perhaps it's more like watching the maiden-voyage of the Titantic, one of those hyped-up things whose creators were so confident and assured about its success that they thought they could ignore everything and do whatever they wanted.
Comments
Nicely said, I like your term bash-addict , mind if i use it?
Yeah Vanguard has taken on all the aspects of a train wreck.
I'll not get into a flamefest with you, but I'll say that I know enough about the gaming industry seeing as I am a gamer. What I was saying about WoW is that not all games can be expected to live up to those sorts of sales figures. Oh, and thanks for validating my attempts to "pick apart" his post by saying they "Betrayed" my "trollish" nature.
Please, kindly, go eff yourself now.
Yeah your right. Everyone loves to flame a liar.
I wonder why?
Could it be the same cause of famine and human rights violations is the same cause that let vanguard hit the market? By cause I mean any vice parallel to dishonest?
....
for the record i am a subscriber and currently enjoy playing vanguard but of the last two days i've been noticing something. That the glitchiness of the game is discouraging me.
So your saying Brad is the cause of famine and all human rights violations...just a joke
Look if you feel like sigil lied to you in any way then fine flame them bash em ...whatever toots you horn, All Im saying is hanging out here for hours everyday ...and writing 1000 word essays on why vsoh sucks is pretty darn pathetic and sad... it is after all just a game
I come up here for the entertainment value of reading all the posts bashing Vanguard, and the responses (eerily thinning out lately) bashing the bashers.
I'm only disappointed the OP didn't provide any entertainment. It was very well written and pretty much mirrors my own feelings about the game.
I think responses to the bashers is thinning out because anyone with half a brain that see's the same names in every tread bashing a game is smart enough to relize there just SOE haters, and its the first chance theve had sence LucasArts trashed there jedi and there's nothing you me or anybody is going to say to stop them from trying to get there revenge.
Its sad and pathedic but at the same time i laugh all day long as i play vanguard at each and everyone of them , makes my day thinking about all that work they Put in getting a jedi, trashed in the blink of an eye lol
Success is measured in millions these days.
I doubt Sigil cares, Brad has stated many times he is only interested in a small slice because he figures (and rightly so) the market will be carved up by many games soon.
Call me a Bradite but I agree, WoW will find it increasingly more difficult to stay on top with a multiple of new games being released.
As for Vanguard being "Bad design" that is largely personal opinion as I think its one of the best game designs I have played since EQ1 but then I like camps, I like no instancing etc etc.
In fact this site is so full of negative "never happy" MMORPers, that I suspect once Warhammer, Conan and LOTR are released, many people will be posting "Don't buy this game its crap", whether the game deserves it or not.
Now playing: VG (after a long break from MMORPGS)
Played for more than a month: Darkfall online, Vanguard SOH, Everquest, Horizons, WoW, SWG, Everquest II, Eve
Maybe it belongs to the worst on the left side.BUT it is only released shortly.
Don't overdo it...saying this game is the worst mmorpg out there and stands alone , for sure you can not be serious.Just like i can't say archlord is the worst mmorpg out there , allthough I hated it with every part in my body.You have the good and bad reviewed ones....vanguard falls under the category of bad reviewed.
So did archlord , dark and light , roma victor , auto assault , and many others.Some have crawled from under that rock , like archlord is doing and auto assault managed to do it a bit too.For the vanguard fans let's hope VG does the same...And for the haters i let's hope it doesn't.
I think I can argue that it is indeed the worst. Aside from the technical problems that plague it. Namely:
Those are technical problems that they may or may not be able to solve. Now let's look at the design of the game and gameplay. First of all the world is huge. This is great in theory but bad in practice. It takes a long time to get a group and after traveling an area once, the travel becomes extremely boring. The distance spreads the Players out so they feel like they are playing a single Player game.
Next, the starter zones separate the races so that Players are not able to easily play together in the initial levels. As a Noob, in order to play with a friend you must roll the same race.
Next, the game is group centric but does not introduce any new concepts to assist with that grouping outside of shouting "LFG". Now travel comes into play again as once you are able to get a group, you must potentially travel a long distance to join the group even if you are on the same continent.
Next, the game advertises 3 spheres however, the diplomacy sphere is not connected to the other spheres in any way. The adventuring sphere is fun with a group but extremely tedious without one. Therefore, grouping is the only viable play style. However, due to the huge world again grouping is not viable. You can solo or quest in the game but it is just an afterthought. There is not real lore or storyline in the game for those who like the RPG side of the MMORPG equation.
Finally and the game breaker, the game can not be played on an average User's computer. In order to meet the subscription numbers for a game that costs $30 million to produce I would imagine that they are targeting a Player Base larger than 50k. Even a lot of people who consider themselves "Core" Gamers do not have uber rigs to play the game.
Vanguard is hiding behind the guise of "No MMOs are finished" or "It has only been out for a short time". That is for games that have relatively minor changes that need to be made. Vanguard is fundamentally broken from a design point of view. The Team that is trying to fix it does not even seem to be able to fix the technical bugs much less the fundamental design flaws in this game.
And just to put off your inevitable response: I never had a Jedi in SWG. The thing with the NGE was that it ruined the entire game--not just Jedi.
You know, its not just the fact that the game is buggy as hell. I feel that Brad's Vision (TM) is flawed. He really believes that going "old school" is the right thing to do and everyone thought this would be the greatest game since sliced bread. The fact that the developers hyped their own game isn't the issue. Its the fact that so many of the "Vanbois" were so extremely vocal about the game's imminent success before, during and after beta. I feel this game was more hyped than pre-release WoW so that in contrast, it made what would be a disappointing game more spectacularly so.
I think there is a lesson to be learned here. These developing companies don't know everything. They don't necessarily know what players want out of a game or what will keep them coming back. They try to use tricks, such as game mechanics whose only purpose is to waste time rather than entertain you. I see paradigms like level grinds and repetitive and time wasting raids going the way of the Dodo, extinction. If WoW has proven anything, its that people do enjoy faster paced games and despite the fast leveling and ease of play, players stick around just as long if not longer than they did for EverQuest or Vanguard. The casual market is a powerful contender now and hardcore gameplay isn't the money maker it used to be.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Let's not lie to ourselves here. D&L might have been the most poorly designed game, but Vanguard has had the worstrelease. I play vanguard and I enjoy the game mechanics, but in terms of bugs, it is the worst hands.... down ever! You cannot debate this. I'm sorry if you do you haven't played the game. For example they just recently added in damage tags for dots. That is rediculous. That is so bad I can't even explain to you how far back this game is programming wise. I'm subscribing but this is my last month. After this back to WOW. Flame away but WOW has better graphics. Yes you heard me it does. Even on my uber system from alienware that I bought just to play this game I peak at 60 fps in the wilderness and 25 in cities. Do you realise how bad that is? My system is better than 99 percent out there, even the ones used to make this game. I have 4 gigs of ram. I have the latest nvidia card and I have the best intel processor that money can buy.
BTW. By better graphics I mean they look better. Sharper lines better textures etc. I don't mean fancy shaders that really do absolutely nothing to enhance the visual quality fo the game. Infact when you see lite in wow in rays and beams and this isn't even in vg you have to ask yourself why this game takes so much to run...
CRP.
True d&l might have been a failure, never played. But in terms of bugs I cannot imagine a game worse than VG. Infact there is none.
I have a suprise for you " Not everyone plays a game the same as you do" wow you must be suprised now, Not everyone playes the technical side of a game some don't care if they hit 1000 damage or they hit 860 damage, some like WOW graphics some don't, l liked the graphics when i was playing WoW but these day's i can expect to see better graphics and numerous games will have that, doesn't have to be MMO. That you encountered all those bugs very bad luck for you most gamers will leave a game if they encounter them as frequent some say on these forums, why is that some people are so incredible stupid to think other wise. Why is it that some people asume others wil always encounter the same problems. It is all about how you play a game, if you play a game just to have fun there is not much that can hinder you in Vanguard, are you in Vanguard cause you feel the need to be uber or the "first " or or or or or....then Vanguard will mostlikely not be your game. Yeah yeah Vanguard engine really needs to get better optimised for some people, still is very wierd to read that when seeing many people online ingame, really if the game was as bad as some of you would like to make us believe the game would be dead. I use to think the same about Archlord but thankfully i opened my eyes and I realised that not everyone likes the same games or gamestyle that i like, Only if i would be some anti-social person i would go over the Archlord forums and say the game is crap, but seeing people still playing that game regardless what i feel about the game there must be something good in it for other players as they seem to enjoy themselfs. Is that so hard to accept for some of you, are peoplethat narrowminded to think the world evolves around them only and must be lifed the way they want it too.
ps. By beter graphics you mean you own personal preference, you feel they are better, doesn't have to be the same for everyone else.
Hehe indeed.
Thinking of thoses self inflated Luke "the force is strong in your family", all stopping playing a game they loved, in a kinda 4 years old kid throwing his toy against the wall move... its soooo funny and pathetic.
They broke theyr own toy and now they'r after other people toys... Halp halp!! Stay away bloody yodaphiles!
What I love most is usually not the crap Vantrolls write in an effort to bash Vanguard . Rather its the people posting afterwards congratulating the OP for a well written and well founded post I mean lets see what the OP tells us about Vanguard in his post. I can discern 3 points.
1) Vanguard is the most poorly designed and executed MMORG he ever encountered...... Well thats it. Thats his whole argument.! I would accept someone posting this sentence followed by where does he feel Vanguards design is laking. Itemazation, encounter ai, interactivity between the spheres, faction based advancement, too much grind , too little grind, not enough quests, slow progression , fast progression, too few dungeons, class imbalance, too few classes , classes not playing different from one another, broken crafting, broken economy, reliance on drop loot as opposed to crafted and quest loot, small world, too big a world, long traveling times, too many ways for fast travel which makes loose immersion, lack of zoning , chunking which has problems.... I mean really what do you think its the major design flaws? And please say lack of helmets, or game is lagging when 30 people are around .
2) You need a top end end computer to smoothly play Vg. To that noone can disagree. This is indeed a design decision that was made by Sigil. Other games have gone that way. Everquest, SWG and EQ2 have gone down this road also. This indeed hurts a game , since few people can afford to have top end technology whne a game launches. Here you ahve to make a choice. Play and evaluate a game , and see if its worth your time and effort to continue playing it , knowing that at some point in the future all those technology related problems will be dealt with. Last time I made that choice was back in 2004 when i chose EQ2 over WoW, even though my computer could barely run it, crashed me all the time when I evaced from an area, took 5 mins to load a new zone, and would slower every new zone I went through. And that playing at extreme performance....hell even now 2.5 years after release, you still cant really run at extreme quality in zones like mistmoore castle. I did all these and have never regretted it, because I played what was in my opinion the best MMORG out there. Brilliant quests, good class balance, great community, great encounters etc etc. I would still be playing EQ2 if not for Vanguard. That because I never cared about all the critisism about the game when it came out on how poorly it performed on that days computers, how poor was the game etc etc.
3) Vanguard ranks 1000 places bellow SWG in amazon coms sales chart. This actually made my day. So mr Vantroll how many coppies do you think they are apart? One ? Two? Five? How many coppies do you think amazon com sells? I mean I hope amazons sales doesnt mean too much for overall sales of a MMORG. Poor LORTO is outselled 1 week before release by super paper mario, guitar heroes bundle (the one with the whole guitar ) and some pokemon titles.
To sum it up..... thinking before writting ...always good. Want to make a contsructive critisism about a game you dislike. We are all ears. You want to be a troll, that's not a problem also. Keep coming here for the entertaiment value. I seriously doubt I have seen a post in all the forums in here that wasnt 1. This game rocks 2. This game sucks 3. You are an idiot and Xboi for liking this game and not that. 4. No the Idiot and Ytroll is you who likes that game and not this.
PS English is not my maiden language and I cant bother to correct any spelling and syntax mistakes anjoy .
I want my $50 back, apology is not accepted Brad.
It is to broad, the only thing you brought up was the performance.
If it is the performance, then I completely agree, you have every right to say something.
What I don't get is the rest of it talking about the worst game and so forth(or close to). Mostly, I think people over exagerate about how bad the game is, because they lump it all in; because of the performance. I wonder if all this boils down to people not being able to find out what the game is like, because of it. Heh, I wouldn't doubt this a bit.
First time I tried VG, I was crawling all over the place. I already knew I needed to get a new Video Card, while the rest of my system is on the higher midrange side. I could play good enough, before the upgrade, to see I would be interested though(painfully hard to play though).
I only have 2 real cons about this game.
1. The performance is unacceptable, in general. The reason being is because they are missing out on a large population of potential customers, because the bad/unoptimized graphics engine. I'm pretty sure this want change a great deal, so unless you are willing to upgrade a thing or 2 in your computer; then it just isn't going to happen.
Point....stay clear!!!
2. They kind of pull a bait and switch on ya. Around level 12 to 15, the game begins to get to grindish(for someone who's solo/group ratio is something like 70/30, like myself). The reason is because the game is solo friendly until these levels. After you get to somewhere in that area though, quests start to get to group oriented. This is either because what you are asked to do says it requires a group or where you are sent there is a chance for a lot of aggro. So either way you are going to need a group.
The main good points I have with the game.
1. The combat is pretty good. Probably some of the best that has come out in any MMOG lately. Everyone but mage types are pretty proficient in melee. They take some of DAoC combat traits and improve on it a little. Mainly, you do chains based on certain reactions instead of so much positional stuff; like in DAoC. The diversity in different type weapons is pretty nice too. What I mean is say you like to crit more, well you go with Daggers or Shortswords. If you like the big numbers, then you go with something that is a 2-hander, that gives you chances to double crit on your crits. Other 1-handers have more of a balance of damage, their dps maybe higher than say an equal 1-hander of the Dagger or Shortsword variety.
One other thing, the animations aren't excellent; but they are more than good enough. I like a lot of flashies in combat, so it actually makes you feel like your specials; well are special.
2. The atmosphere is really good, it is more of the pull you in type. I guess this is more of a personal opinion, but it makes me feel more drawn in than the graphics in say WoW. I wouldn't say they are excellent graphics, especially for the system requirments, but they are between the mid and higher range somewhere.
The reason I brought up WoW, is because those type graphics don't draw me in so much. They aren't bad either, they just don't seem to pull me in much.
3. The quests are pretty good. I'm really not much of a quest junkie anymore, but they have some logic to them(a lot are FedEX style, but they have more story to them, than most games). There are very few that you just keep repeating. I don't really see much they can do about the FedEX style quests though, it is just part of the genre.
So, to the OP, what exactly do you not like? Or could you just not enjoy the game because the performance?
The reason I'm asking is because I keep seeing all these threads pop up about how bad VG is, but most say it is bad and never give any real detail. The performance issue almost always comes up, but is it because people never had the chance to enjoy the game because of this or what?
Of course, WoW outsold all SWG sales in one day.
His point is valid. Now that MMO's are much more mainstream, Vanguard should have made a bigger splash. Especially against the notorious SWG.
Do you have proof that WoW actually outsold SWG in one day? You also have to remember that SWG wasn't out as long 3 years ago when WoW was released so obviously the sales numbers were lower, in effect making them easier to beat.
And anyways what does it matter who outsells who? What does any of that have to do with anything?
WoW is an anomaly, and one that I'll never understand. Oh, and just to counter a point you made, not all MMO's are mainstream. Actually, to be honest, WoW is the only real mainstream MMO, and that is STRICTLY due to Blizzard's reputation.
I hate to break this too you but Vanguard's direction is also heading mainstream (if it can.) Backed up by Brad Mcqauid himself.
I think the Hardcore MMO players of the 2000 era need to realise any game made with a 30 million dollar budget like vanguard simply cannot afford to operate as a niche title....end of argument.
My post was in no way intended to do any of these things. Nor was my response intended to catalog the failings of Vanguard, as you criticize me for failing to do. It was designed as a response to posts, such as yours, in which Vanguard's critics are personally attacked as dim-witted, challenge-averse, basement-dwelling trolls embittered at the failure of Vanguard.
That you call me a troll and criticize me for failing to launch an adequate argument against Vanguard in a post designed to respond to personal attacks on Vanguard critics suggests strongly that you should take your own advice to me, which was to think before writing.
It is like watching a slow-motion train crash, isn't it?
Or perhaps it's more like watching the maiden-voyage of the Titantic, one of those hyped-up things whose creators were so confident and assured about its success that they thought they could ignore everything and do whatever they wanted.
Including ignore those pesky icebergs.
Thanks for droping by.
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