How to turn an immature community into a more mature one?

PrebThor · April 2007

What can we as players do? What can the developers do? Suggestions? Give it your best shot!

Aethios · April 2007

Originally posted by Thorsnes
What can we as players do? What can the developers do? Suggestions? Give it your best shot!

Make begging a bannable offense. Of all the silly immature things people do, this one annoys me most.

davcha · April 2007

$100 monthly fee (with awesome GM support and very cool animators in an extremely rich mmorpg ?)

More seriously, you can ask yourself : "why players of WoW, EQ2, etc are so childish, egoist, etc... ?"

The answer lies into the basic concept of those mmorpg :

- they are based on individual progression

- they are exploiting a very common social trait of human being : social status

For example, World of Warcraft : there are many differents armors in this game but only the armor sets are beautiful and can be identified very easily. Add spoiling websites, announcements from blizzard "hey look the new very kewl armor sets you can get if you spend 3 months in the same dungeon killing the same mobs over and over !!!" and you get that little thing called "social status".

When you see a player wearing a specific armor set, you know what he achieved in the game to get it (thx to spoiling websites, announcements), and usually that guy is proud of the "look" of his character : "take a look at my gear !" and then he links all his purple stuff.

Other players see this stuff and they see the behavior of this guy : "Hey Duel me !... Bah, you lose, you're weak." and they want to do the same thing because it's cool to control everything that can happen to you (so nothing can happen to you).

Dont be surprised about the lack of maturity of the players : that's something developpers want.

Imagine, if players were not so immature, they'd think twice before doing anything, they'd realize that all this purple stuff, all those races to get "the first world kills" are pointless.

And then, developpers could not continue to give us those boring "mmorpg" based on individual progression and frustration. Developpers would have to develop real and funny games, instead of those mindless grinds/farms.

And you know what ? It's easier to make money from poorly designed "games" when the majority of your players are happy with that.

Players are immature because mmorpg "force" them to be immature.

It's all based on frustration caused by individual progression, remember.

You see a guy with some "z0mgStufFz !!" from the last dungeon, blizzard show you the cool stuff in the last dungeon, spoiling websites do the same, and the consequence of this is : you want to get it. There starts the frustration : "i dont have that, i want it !!".

Why does it work ? Because the progression is individual ; even when you farm group/raid-content, one loot can only be given to one character.

Because of this, it becomes unproductive to play as a group. If you could beat illidan by yourself, would you do it ? Sure of course ! You wouldnt have to share the loot with others !

It becomes unproductive to play as a group, everything is focused on the individuals, in other words : that kind of mmorpg promotes egoism.

And you wonder why players are immature ? Dont be surprised.

That said, you can easily imagine my views on "how to turn an immature community into a more mature one ?".

Kyleran · April 2007

I'm not really sure there is anything that can be done by either the players or the devs. What do you mean by mature? If you mean don't let people under a certain age play, there are things that could be done to prevent "some" of the younger folks from joining, but of course it wouldn't stop them all.

If you mean that players behave in a more mature manner, that's an even tougher nut to crack, as that is more related to greater issues in society than a game can deal with.

Nowdays people have a "WWF" or gangster attitude, that your "honor" must be defended at every opportunity, and no one had better ever disrepect you. People seem to find it necessary to be right, no matter what, or brag about what they feel is the "best", be it their favorite game, character, or personal gaming "skill".

There are no good guys anymore.... just a bunch of people trying to prove they are "tougher" than another person... (hence the WWF reference)

This problem is not limited to just the younger players, (though they frequently are the more extreme offenders) and I can't see how a game can really do much about it.

All we really can do is create our little enclaves (which we do with guilds) of people who are like-minded to ourselves and spend as much time with them vs the rest of the community.

Forcan · April 2007

Problem: Community, very important in MMORPGs, and now has filled with immature gamers with the "me" attitude.

Solution: Take away the need to have the "me" attitude. (such as gear-dependent system, loot system where it doesn't require players to farm for items, but maybe farm for parts. Crafting > loot item can work as long as the community allows it.)

There are many parts to the system that can be changed so that players will learn to depend on each other, then the community would be better. (also, if anyone take WoW for example, it's not a game where player dependent on each other. At least there is little inter-dependence between players.)

Someone mentioned "social status", and I must say that "social status" in itself, if done right, is a good thing. But the market is now filled with games that defines "social status" based on their "uber loot gears" and such. So if you take that away from the game, you'll start to see people adjust the idea of "social status" to more fitting.

Broodwich · April 2007

It's unrealistic to call for maturity is a GAME. Most people play games when they DON'T have to feel responsible for their time or others people's time. The best ways to reduce immature players in a game are already in place and used by many players.

1. Find mature friends. There are enough call for maturity threads posted that if you can't find that other person that wants a more mature experience then it's probably YOU that's being immature. Now you might still have to encounter players you deem immature but you're friends will be a protective shell for the most part.

2. Join a guild with common ideals. Guild mean numbers and can isolated themselves enough to avoid other users all together.

3. Play a different game. You see the list on the left hand side of the window and how long it is? That should give you an idea there are MANY options to switch to if the community of the game your trying to play is failing you.

4. You might not really need an MMO. I personally don't like PVP in MMO if I want to play PVP I'll load up BF2142 or any game for my quick fix. Most the time you really don't care to know the person you're playing against and certainly if someone's ruining your fun you can leave and no harm is done. Also death in worse case is a 10 second timer rather than someone undoing potiential hours of work you've done prior when you didn't have much time to play to begin with.

Josher · April 2007

Make a bad game. The worst MMORPGs with the smallest playerbases always seem to have the best communities. Problem solved=)

But seriously, the more people the more twits. How do you make everyone in NYC get along? You can't. Same for WOW or any game with millions of people interacting.

The_Rogue · April 2007

Originally posted by Thorsnes

What can we as players do? What can the developers do? Suggestions? Give it your best shot!

Micro Manage everything and have a substantial fee. Then have a personal reveiw for each player annually and only mention the bad actions they did during the year, such as: "Back in Feb 3 of '06 you used the local chat out of character. You need to use the OOC in the future for discussions such as the one you were on." or " You were /AFK for 15 mins. During that time some of your guild mates needed you, but could not find you. Please make sure you keep the /AFK to 10 mins in the future."

Then increase their monthly fee by 3% and say, " We want to see you get more involved in the guild this coming year. If you want your monthly fee to decrease this will depend heavily on your participation with in said guild."

Then send them a massive amount of packets to freeze their game so they have to relog.

0k21 · April 2007

Very interesting comments, I honestly sometimes think that it is down to both the players and the game itself to 'make' a mature community, if the game is complex and entertaining and not just a simplified grind, you will get more mature players, but it all varies in each community look at EVE Online for example the game is extremely vast and complicated but you will still find players on there who have managed to understand the system that simply act like they shouldn't even be interacting with people at all, letting their ego's get in the way of people. I find that games that encourage socialization and teamwork to be a good idea, Star Wars Galaxies pre-cu was a prime example, whilst you were able to go out hunting on your own entertainers and crafting, players were forced to rely on other players of these professions if they wanted an easier ride into the higher hybrid professions, thanks to that, there was in fact a real friendly community that helped newbies out. Yes, there was occasionally the bunch of morons that would try and ruin it for everybody, but they would not have very little influence on the community of the game, in fact, none at all unlike games like World of Warcraft where I have actually been personally attacked by people on forums and in game.

At first, it is obviously a matter for the developers to decide on, what kind of players are they aiming at and what kind of community? If the answer seems to be everyone, then the most likely case is that they're just out for money and they don't really care about the community at all, for those of you who may have seen my posts about WoW and NGE SWG, I hate Blizzard and SOE now not because they're successful or because of the community, but it's because of who their target audience was. They went for the mainstream, SOE merely got unlucky because Blizzard had already tapped into that and they weren't offering anything new, Blizzard got in nearly all because of it's aggressive marketing campaign.

The_Rogue · April 2007

Oh!..and heres another idea....make a MMORPG with just....get this....

Whores and Blackjack!

Aelfinn · April 2007

First of all, in some cases it is not possible for players to do on their own. In these cases, the GMs would be in a position to help, but don't count on it.

A.) You need several dedicated people on at relatively the same time. 5 or more constantly on the channels at any given moment should do.

B.) You need a lot of patience, and a lot of time.

C.) Begin dominating the world chat channels by requiring posters to behave. This can start off with a simple request for proper English, or to moderate one's language (whether or not there is a filter). At first, expect very heavy opposition. This is where your wingmen come in, by continually supporting you and your statements. Above all else, you and your arguments must remain polite, cool, and reasonable at all times. Swapping out characters is advisable, otherwise your name might become too well known.

D.) By creating an environment where maturity is expected, gamers who are already predisposed to such behavior begin speaking up more and more often, continuing your efforts on their own.

E.) Eventually, gamers who will change their behavior to reflect their environment (who constitutes probably over 75% of them all), will change their behavior to match the general sentiment of the chat channels.

F.) This also changes behavior in the rest of the game.

Games like World of Warcraft, don't count on it, there are too many immature gamers, too many servers, and the cesspool they call the forums has too much influence, not to mention the communication issues. For an example of just how this works ingame, sign up for the free trial in Anarchy Online and just hang around the newbie island for a while (no need to play, much less like the game itself). Veteran players are constantly correcting the newbies' behavior, even as they help them begin on their path. Some never change of course, but the fact remains that the overall behavior in the game is some of the best to be found anywhere.

RK-Mara · April 2007

Make a game designed for mature gamers.

PrebThor · April 2007

Originally posted by The_Rogue

Originally posted by Thorsnes

What can we as players do? What can the developers do? Suggestions? Give it your best shot!

Micro Manage everything and have a substantial fee. Then have a personal reveiw for each player annually and only mention the bad actions they did during the year, such as: "Back in Feb 3 of '06 you used the local chat out of character. You need to use the OOC in the future for discussions such as the one you were on." or " You were /AFK for 15 mins. During that time some of your guild mates needed you, but could not find you. Please make sure you keep the /AFK to 10 mins in the future."

Then increase their monthly fee by 3% and say, " We want to see you get more involved in the guild this coming year. If you want your monthly fee to decrease this will depend heavily on your participation with in said guild."

Then send them a massive amount of packets to freeze their game so they have to relog.

This one made me laugh!

PrebThor · April 2007

Originally posted by Aethios

Originally posted by Thorsnes

What can we as players do? What can the developers do? Suggestions? Give it your best shot!

Make begging a bannable offense. Of all the silly immature things people do, this one annoys me most.

Good point.

garbonzo · April 2007

Of course, people of all ages act in all sorts of ways. But, it would be interesting to try age guidelines on servers, for example an 18 and under server, a 19 to 29 server, a 30+ server, and all ages. Clearly the more categories and servers you have, the more players you need to fill them up - but something like WoW could do it. Or, you could outright define the culture by category, like: 1. Friendly, cooperative, mature server; 2. Abusive dog eat cat server; 3. Anything goes server, etc.

I agree, though, that the game design itself largely dictates the general personality of the players it will attract.

Shadrak · April 2007

included a measuring stick in the retail box and add this to the required spec.

" Participation in this MMO requires an Epeen <____this Long____________>"

complexiator · April 2007

Lol, somehow i have a bad feeling about the "mature players" you talk about. :P I agree though. How to find a roleplaying game without the "pwning" and the holding hands kinda play? Design the game around where you are best at. Roleplaying. Not a game based solely on grinding or frags. But on creative character development, politics that have an impact and even a judiciary that can convict the ones that don't play along

PrebThor · April 2007

Originally posted by garbonzo

Of course, people of all ages act in all sorts of ways. But, it would be interesting to try age guidelines on servers, for example an 18 and under server, a 19 to 29 server, a 30+ server, and all ages. Clearly the more categories and servers you have, the more players you need to fill them up - but something like WoW could do it. Or, you could outright define the culture by category, like: 1. Friendly, cooperative, mature server; 2. Abusive dog eat cat server; 3. Anything goes server, etc.
I agree, though, that the game design itself largely dictates the general personality of the players it will attract.

I was thinking the same thing: age/categorized guidelines might work. There's always the option of lying about your age (maturity can't be measured in age after all) - thus making the categorization the strongest solution (if you can't follow the guidelines then get the hell out - good luck in one of the other categories). I highly support this solution. Thumbs up!

PrebThor · April 2007

Originally posted by Aelfinn

First of all, in some cases it is not possible for players to do on their own. In these cases, the GMs would be in a position to help, but don't count on it.
A.) You need several dedicated people on at relatively the same time. 5 or more constantly on the channels at any given moment should do.
B.) You need a lot of patience, and a lot of time.
C.) Begin dominating the world chat channels by requiring posters to behave. This can start off with a simple request for proper English, or to moderate one's language (whether or not there is a filter). At first, expect very heavy opposition. This is where your wingmen come in, by continually supporting you and your statements. Above all else, you and your arguments must remain polite, cool, and reasonable at all times. Swapping out characters is advisable, otherwise your name might become too well known.
D.) By creating an environment where maturity is expected, gamers who are already predisposed to such behavior begin speaking up more and more often, continuing your efforts on their own.
E.) Eventually, gamers who will change their behavior to reflect their environment (who constitutes probably over 75% of them all), will change their behavior to match the general sentiment of the chat channels.
F.) This also changes behavior in the rest of the game.

Games like World of Warcraft, don't count on it, there are too many immature gamers, too many servers, and the cesspool they call the forums has too much influence, not to mention the communication issues. For an example of just how this works ingame, sign up for the free trial in Anarchy Online and just hang around the newbie island for a while (no need to play, much less like the game itself). Veteran players are constantly correcting the newbies' behavior, even as they help them begin on their path. Some never change of course, but the fact remains that the overall behavior in the game is some of the best to be found anywhere.

Abandon all hope? Not after reading this. Very nice contribution. Thumbs up!

alyndale · April 2007

In most instances there is not much one can do about immaturity. However, any strong, wise, and compassionate guild leader can straighten out immaturity fairly quickly by getting to know that person. Visit with the young man or woman and quest with them. Help them out from time to time, but discipline firmly and often. Be the father figure here, whether you like it or not that is the challenge you took when you created your guild!Communication is key, after all MMO's are about communicating. Lead by example and many will follow.

Another concept, rather different than the one above would be to hold some type of council scheduled as best as possible through MMO's official forum announcing a meeting for guild leaders and assistants on Teamspeak or Ventrilo. Hash through the issues with immaturity there and make a decision to place age restrictions on guild membership, ( not one of my favorite ideas here). These meetings should be held on at least a monthly basis and be consistent for anything to get done. Voice chat is definitely a must here. This is a wonderful way for guilds to share with one another. Yes, I know there are 100's of guilds on my server, you would say. Communication and sincerity is the key to gain acceptance. The more this is publicized them more popularity it will gain. After a couple of months I dare say you'd have a full Ventrilo with guild leaders.

Youngsters will always try to gain attention. Lack of it from parents just heighten the problem at school and even in an MMO setting.

I would also like to add that I have several young people, (8 to be exact), in my guild ranging from ages 14 to 19 that handle them selves remarkably well in most cases. I have had to discipline several though, and I have removed several as well. Unfortunately, I actually have had to discipline more adults and have removed more adults for childish behavior than I have actual children!

Not sure there are any easy answers. Time, patience, communication, and eternal vigilance is the way to start though.

Parablood · April 2007

There's only one solution... were going to have to hold more events like this:

http://www.pvptube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=a7031000fd987a3c9f87

Forcan · April 2007

alyndale, what you mentioned is based on people within guilds, and those who might join guilds. But the problem of immaturity extends to all players, not just ones who join guilds. Although your idea is sound, it only fix the population withing the guild, not the population outside the guild. People will see your guild and know you guys are nice, but other than that, they still do what they do.

Many of the posts above has good ideas, but mostly focus on the "setting rules" part of the system. But I think the main issue is not the rules, but the settings that breed these type of immature mind set. (in general, the "me" mind set. People want to prove themselves, and boast themselves to extreme.)

If we remove these type of settings, and replace something which encourage and reinforce the idea of a mature community, then the players would break away from the "me" mind set, and get to the "we/us" mind set.

Just my thoughts.

nomadian · April 2007

Have no instant gratification, no compelling game elements, poor UI and there you have it, a mature community or aka Ryzom.

Alternatively, mature servers.

Ithuriel · April 2007

Remove all emotes and only let people chat with pre-written dialogue options. Short of that, nothing you can do. The anonymity that playing an mmo provides, the fact that you can do or say whatever you want without worries of punishment, reprisal, or r/l identification, ensures that every mmo ever made will to some degree be populated by assholes. It's escapism. You can't kill a guy, teabag his corpse and steal his stuff in real life, so you do it in a game where absolutely no one knows who you are or where you live, and therefore cannot take you out to the woodshed and teach you a lesson. There is no way to make an mmo community more mature. The only thing we can do is grow thicker skins and try to ignore the problem.

PrebThor · April 2007

Originally posted by Forcan

alyndale, what you mentioned is based on people within guilds, and those who might join guilds. But the problem of immaturity extends to all players, not just ones who join guilds. Although your idea is sound, it only fix the population withing the guild, not the population outside the guild. People will see your guild and know you guys are nice, but other than that, they still do what they do.

Many of the posts above has good ideas, but mostly focus on the "setting rules" part of the system. But I think the main issue is not the rules, but the settings that breed these type of immature mind set. (in general, the "me" mind set. People want to prove themselves, and boast themselves to extreme.)

If we remove these type of settings, and replace something which encourage and reinforce the idea of a mature community, then the players would break away from the "me" mind set, and get to the "we/us" mind set.

Just my thoughts.

You're really onto something here (I was gonna say that part regarding guilds - damn you! ^^). Would a reasonable amount of carebearness work? Friendly reminders to "set the tone"; "be nice to others" propaganda in-game using messages in the chat windows, etc. Annoying "nanny filters" for bad language do seem to work in some games (e.g. ArchLord), since the player typing will only get a "There, there. Please, try to rephrase your sentence." type of answer instead of getting his/hers message across. The original message gets deleted and the player is more likely to give it up.

Broodwich · April 2007

I found FFXI one of the most mature communities ever. Most of that came from how much an impact poor behavior could obstruct you from the required groups, and all but stop your leveling. You would be hard pressed to find immature player above level 30 unless they had real life friends playing with them. That community came with the cost that you also had to schedule your playtime for the grouping to work and the level of responsibility you had with your group partners would in most cases remove the fun from the game experience.

Howdy, Stranger!

How to turn an immature community into a more mature one?

Comments

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Howdy, Stranger!

Quick Links

How to turn an immature community into a more mature one?

Comments

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV