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Should we hold Affiliate sites responsible?
shae
Member Posts: 2,509
After reading and thinking about some great responses in this thread "http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/128308", which is in relation to Kat recusing www.vanguardroleplayers.com from the Vanguard Affiliate Site program, it got me to thinking about the affiliate program a little more (yes I do "think" now and then, don't be shocked!).
There's so many great questions and comments that can come from this move but the one that has me most puzzled internally is, do we or should we hold community web sites that are part of the Affiliate program responsible for informing or not informing us regarding vanguard.
We all know that Affiliate sites are given information that the rest of us don't know, managers of said sites are in contact with Vanguard community leaders that push propaganda in return for special privlidges. The site managers then post that propangada in return for a certain amount of favoritism, things like special announcements for certain sites only, Brad showing up on your forums, all this increases your sites traffic and thus your income.
Now is it just me or does that system of preference not only allow for corruption but it "almost" encourages such behavior? Regardless, where does the line of responsiblity end and how much can we actually trust these sites as anything more than puppets in getting people keep paying to play? More over, do we hold them as responsible should deception come on the part of the developers and producers of the game.
We all know deception happens in the world of mmorpg's, SWG anyone? So here's the highly hypothetical situation I'm envisioning.
SOE buys out Brad and Co. for all physical rights to Vanguard and it's properties. The plan is to completely shut down the game for one month, overide all textures with pink fuzzy bunnies and make Vanguard an MMO for the 12 and under crowd. The affiliate sites are informed about this but are told not to release the information until after the next billing cycle.
In this, admitedly silly, situation is the affiliate site just as respondible for the injustice OR are they just doing what they've always said they would, simply support the community.
Anyways, that's my question/thoughts. Anyone else?
Comments
Forums sites can be biased towards a game, and get privileges and be used as a promotion for VG, but..............
They have to state VERY CLEARLY they are, they have to state they are being asked to post X or Y, to spread the word on this or that, they have to state what they are.
Are they independant or not? Do they get privileges or not?
To me it seems they do, but pretend to be an independant forum.
Negative press gets locked fast and hard on some VG affliate sites, VGspheres and tenton just to name a few. It's probably one of the reasons why mmorpg.com is more negative towards VG than the affliate sites, usually negative posts aren't deleted here.
To me that screams deceit and propaganda from Sigil.
I don't think so. Ultimately, any and all responsibility falls on Sigil. It's their game, after all, and they're the ones who release any and all information, so to that end, they're the ones that we should look at first.
The affiliate sites themselves? Not so much. Most of them just happened to be the more enthusiastic fansites that already existed for the game, so they did what anyone in that position would do-- they jumped at the chance to be a part of a network that they were told would include more interaction from the developers, more access to information, and a more direct line to the company than they would supposedly get from official forums.
I can't fault the webmasters of those sites for any problems in communication. They're just relay stations for Sigil, not the main source of information.
I'm not so sure. While I can see your point, I don't think there's any real malice on the part of the fansites, which is what would be required here. They'd have to not care if they hurt the people who come to their site, or their own reputation as sources for Vanguard info, and I'd like to think that most dedicated fans who are webmasters of these sites have more self-respect than that.
The real danger with the affiliate sites was more along the lines of forum censorship, and of shouting down any dissent, since both those things existed in beta. However, a quick glance at the bigger sites like Silky Venom shows posts and threads that don't just parrot a party line, and there's a good balance of moderation.
In the wrong hands, yes. It would encourage all of those things. I just haven't seen any real evidence of it on the fansites I've looked at.
With Sigil, and Sigil alone. It's their game, and they came up with the affiliate system. It all begins and ends with them.
That's ultimately a personal decision, but again, I don't think the webmasters of these sites are malicious towards their readers. I think they're just fans of the game who are stuck in a difficult spot-- if they go too far against what Sigil does, they risk losing access, but if they go too far in blind support of Sigil, they risk alienating their more reasonable members, especially if someone gets overzealous with the banhammer.
No. They're just fans of the game. If anyone needs to be held accountable for any deceptions, that would be the people who are actually in charge of the game. Going after the fansites would be misguided.
I can't see any of the fansites for Vanguard sitting on a change that drastic, especially if they're asked not to say anything until the billing cycle ends. I'd imagine many of them would up and quit, simply because that version of Vanguard wouldn't be something they'd want to play. Why would they just accept something like that silently when it would be a complete overhaul of a game they enjoy?
back and I'll scratch yours" does not go on in the world. It becomes a lot more dicey
when you start accusing specific individuals / businesses of that behavior with little
or no proof.
In your hypothetical example, it is presumed that proof exists and we are put in the
position of being the editor and asked to decide what a website should do when
confronted with the situation.
What we choose to do is defined more by how we define "support the community"
or "serve the community". If deliberately disseminating false information for
whatever reasons is deemed as supporting the community, then you have your
answer. There are lots of cases of people doing things in back rooms (can anyone
say Jack Abramoff) depending that the light of day will never shine on their deeds.
The ultimate question is can we count on journalistic integrity from websites when
so mcuh of what goes on is hidden and is done in "back rooms" ? I am not so
sure the answer is an unqualified yes.
If they would have had it easier to throw out propaganda they would have own forums. Forums where subscribers only can posts, forums where they can make up their own rules. That would have been much easier.
Either of the case would not have made negatives harder. That is just simple to post at any other sites besides official/affiliate ones. For instance you are posting at one now aren't you.
The reason that threads get closed/removed ar whatever is not solely to remove negatives and make false propaganda. There is also a reason that to much noise disrupts forums and I am assured that MMORPG.com (just example) has more interest and has more audiance then those that feels obligated and feels they are the ones foremost to bash Vanguard. That 'moderating' is general and done by most sites that wants to have somewhat sense of being serious.
That would be the same situation regardless of Sigils affiliate program.
That is done to avery affiliate site in whatever game/company or whatever. This Blizzards is just an example.
They would probable do the latter. And what that means in be upfront with news.
And ther should not be any reason why they shouldn't. you have proper place for whinage on those forums to. Ther is none whatsoever reason to let discussions or forum be disrupted by the same trolling over and over. Those sites are not aimed for those that just troll about that game.
That is not something special about Vanguard. You can go to whatever games fansite forum and bash and the thread gets locked/moved.
----------------------------
So in the end, if one figures. It is not that far fetched that the affiliate site interpretation made by Sigil was intended to make the company more close to the audiance. But failing(?) doing so.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
Should we hold Affiliate sites responsible?
of course the community should holds affiliate sites responsible for their moderation styles. We shouldn't hold affiliate sites responsible for VG Dev/community reps lack of participation or interaction.
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Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
Lao-Tze
Affiliate sites have no choice but to remain loyal to their sponsor. They can't and won't hold to any real standard of impartiality, they must come down in favor of the game company. I doubt we'd ever get an extreme scenario like you outlined Shae, because I don't believe any game developer would share such a change in advance. The affiliates would get it dropped on them at best about 10 minutes before the rest of the community... because no one can keep a secret, especially if they felt it was their duty to be truthful.
I personally assume that affiliate sites are not impartial, and they act/react in exactly the way I would expect. I prefer neutral fansites without any direct ties to the developer, because at least there a chance at some impartiality.
Which is why I post about 10 to 1 here on MMORPG.com vs Silky Venom or the LoTRO official forums. I value the news and opinions I get from this site more than I do from sites that are understandably biased towards the game they support.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The affiliate sites are there in the place of official forums. They are a LOT more democratic than official forums in other games are. For example here's one of the post of Brad asking for 'spin control'. :
I spent money on Sigil super extra next generation MMO and now some people find normal to be paying so Sigil could finally make a good MMO and make some profits from it.
and if I can prevent some players from trying VG, well I'll be glad to
Is this ok with the moderators? I don't mind addressing people who are upset or negative and I have a pretty thick skin, but if this person has commited himself to post here in order to try to get people not to buy the game, I likely have an issue with that.
Yeah, Mythic had no official forum, just the VN boards, and the Herald. However, they also had Sanya as CM. Which is how they were able to maintain a dialog with the players without having their own forums. Personally, I thought Sanya, and the Herald did a better job communicating with the players than pretty much any of the other games have done with a dedicated forum. Though, she did post on the VN boards occasionally as I recall.
If Sigil had the brains to hire someone as good at being a CM as Sanya was, they'd be a lot better off. Letting McQuaid do damage control on the forums is just plain stupid. He's long winded to the extreme, has a knack for using the wrong phrase, and is way to thin skinned to be acting as the public face of Sigil on the forums.
Of course, this assumes the fact that Sigil is looking to have an open, frank, and honest dialog with it's customers.
That's their own choice..
Sigil has a choice to make official forums, I think they should have them really.
It's not Sigil's job, or privillege to go tell affiliated sites who can and who can't post.
Although obviously they do tell them what can and can't, and affliated sites comply, which is known as "spinning".
Honestly it does not matter what anyone associated with any affiliate site or anyone posting on one of thier sites tells me. I have heard enough crap from official forums and affiliate forums to know better than to trust anything I read. Unless I experience it in game it's just a rumor, just like every female toon I see in game is really a man unless I personally know the person behind that toon.
Try games out yourself and make your own judgement. If you put faith in everything you read on these forums, every game being played right now completely sucks and wont last another month. I really think some forums are actually more entertaining than the games they support.
Well i do see vanguard as special case, most of those comunity websites does encourage bias information, but even the hardcore fans have limits.
I played Battlefield 2 since its realese up to first leuthenant.. 361 hours. There is this website bf2s.com that was like the EA's biggest Ass kisser in the whole world; all troll // reasonable critics were deleted and ridiculized. I left that game because patch after patch the game got worse (why the hell EA does that? whats the purpose) anyway, now with bf2142 EA just realese its own "comunity website" and bf2s admins got a slap in the face, Things are diferent now.
Beeing a fan is a thing, its emotional but lets face it: beeing a fan is not the same of having lack of common sense, self respect and dignity. MAKE NO MISTAKE gamming = bussines, game devs priority is to make money, not the "comunity",
as a gammer my priority is value money // fun, then maybe then the devs "effort" (wich i dont give a rat ass about it, since its their work) we are not in the same boat.
I think they made the right decision those sites are a consecuence of the publisher // devs inconpetence, to manage their own costumers (comunity)
What they do is a blackmail to its own costumers.
Very good and fair question, Shae.
My answer is, yes. I think what SIGIL has been doing, as a result of a strange policy not to have "official" forums, is share information about the game, changes, and foster out-of-game community from affiliated web pages. Therefore, it depends on the contractual obligations and duties that result from obtaining "affiliation" status.
Good question, though.
In previous games with forums such as EQ/EQ-2 I find I get fast answers and less bullshit. I had the usual round robin of sites that included quest information, maps and interfaces. Seldom did I interact on their boards because "hey, I got official forums where they are paid to hear the people that pay them. Grimwell would pop in with an answer or some announcement and it was easy to find because Grimwell did not tell his old guild website the information that was read by a member of TTH who posted it and now someone from SV found it and copied it to their site where a member of MMoRPG posted it here, it was simply put under the announcement section where I knew to look.
So, instead, how does our system work. Well, people get frustrated on the official boards where all you can read about is problems and complaints. That's a nice 1st exposure to a gaming investment. Then you hit the affiliates, wow, their sorta complaining a lot to and some of them really have some nasty threads that thankfully get moved to a non-gaming area. If your a caster, you find a caster section, with all the casters information mixed, same with other branches. Hopefully you post your question on the right site and maybe get the right answer if you post enough times on enough sites and check all of them all the time...forget it.
You know the nice part about the company posting on one site? It's harder for them to hide from the real questions and easier for everyone to read the real answers. As a benefit, people (most) tend to be less brazen because posting rights are linked to their accounts. Hmmm.....overall accountability seems to come to mind. On other sites, JuniorPigSlime logs in and totally trashes the game while VGdefender tells you its the best thing he ever played, when neither one subscribes to the game anyway.
Reminds me of the old SNL quote of "It it happened in the world, it's news to us".
This is the first SoE published MMO I have played - outside of trial - so I will bow to the knowledge of long-term SoE customers who claim that if SoE do buy the rights to VG they will most certainly host official forums.
In a nutshell, I'm saying the question is redundant. Probably
Other than that I agree with Lidane.