The current plethora of MMORPGs have been watered down from the original concept. Instead of assuming a role in a virtual world where we as players affect and drive the plot the genre has focused too much on graphics and ease of play. Agreed some concessions need to be made to make the whole concept fun but the core of the simulation has been lost due to the number of concessions developers are taking.
Developers are focusing on current game concepts like mezzs, stuns, respawns and chat systems for example rather then focusing on core mechanics of what their trying to create. In a lot of ways their stuck in eternally creating the sequel to the last game. Which is really what their creating... a game.
Sure a MMORPG is a game but it's supposed to be a game for me not for my avatar. Once I've assumed the role of my avatar it should feel real in the context of the world I'm now in. I should be able for the most part to immerse myself in that world and feel like I'm there. Current mmorpgs just don't have the depth.
When I'm in a MMORPG these days most questions and talking that goes on in game is about where this questie is, or what discipline should I take, what template is the best... The world doesn't exist to my avatar in game and I'm not even 1% immersed. Most MMORPGs are straight forward refined chat systems with some number crunching battle system.
Pre-Patch UO had more core concepts focusing on a virtual world then any game proceding it. Consequently it was the most fun and allowed for the most immersions. In game when you met another player to go adventuring or a pk who was trying to kill you the focused on the game at hand. They assumed the role of their character. Sure lol and rofl etc came up, but their supposed too. Its not like we had emotes to laugh then etc. Most conversation was related to the game world rather then the game. This was not enforced it was simply possible due to the depth of the world.
I realized this when adding a DAOC like quest to my virtual world... I was changing the immersion level drastically and implementing a quest system which took away from the game. Now I am going to have players looking for Thistle... were does he spawn etc etc.... I played with it a lot, I gave thistle a house and a background and a reason for being there. I took away his ability to respawn thus if someone killed him the quest would vanish from their quest list (And all players quest list...) As I got into it though I pulled everything out. It didn't fit and it didn't work. I was artificially driving players to play a mini game to further themselves. I'm not picking on quests, but in general I think they suck... PC driven quests would be so much more immersive and unique, but I'm driving at a point somewhere along here. MMORPGs need to stop trying to create mini games because those mini games BECOME their game. They need to stop lame justification attempts at immortaility and no death penalties... They need to stop showing us exact statistics and creating a min/max game.
Instead focus on immersions... The world itself with core items like the weather, fauna and animals that inhabit. Having them is great but make sure they all effect us... That is if we kill all the deer in an area then maybe next year their won't be any deer to eat... If we're trekking through the hot sun require us to drink more water... (Sure the drinking can be automated so I dont constantly have to click drink water but you would NEED to have water on you) Focus on player interaction and making conflict between the players meaningful.
If you're addong a telnet/mirc/browser client to your game along with it's already existing chat room it sounds like your working on a New operating system or version of AOL rather then a new MMORPG. Does your browser have SPYWARE Blockers? What about sercuity patches for exploits? When these features get introduced you can almost feel the ignorance of the designers... Guys lets spend 4 months focusing on nonsense features which are going to just cause us headaches throughout the entire cycle of the game RATHER then focusing on the world itself.
actually i know 1 game what had permadeath... SWG belive or not... those pesky jedis had few lives and when they died too many times their jedi _died_ for real they lost it aka permadeath
tho it was old SWG... dunno if any1 remembers it
Becoming a Jedi was very hard and anyone who made it to Jedi had a choice knowing full well when they became a Jedi that permadeath was a distinct possibility, the key word is it choice , it was their choice whether or not they became Jedi's and were subject to permadeath.
Permadeath in a MMORPG is a bad idea, the OP seems to have warped what a MMORPG is for his own purposes, RPG is role playing where people invest time in developing and growing a character, to have mandatory permadeath in any MMORPG for all players will guarantee that game a quick death, however a semi voluntary approach such as was in the original SWG Jedi could work, but since a lot of factors outside the players control can contribute to his death I cannot see even this working that well.
Gee, you don't get it do you? Your perfect MMO would be perfect alright only you and a few select others would be playing it. Ever think what permanent death would do to the support group. Constant petitions about how such and such game glitch killed them or they lost connection....etc. It be a support nightmare to say the least. What you left you off your little treatise, is that MMO's cost money to make, and must have a certain level of playerbase to support it. What you propose would have neither. Next time think a bit before you write something so ignorant.
Actually you should really think before posting makeing yourself look like a fool.
Where is he wrong , any MMORPG that enforces perma death for ALL players IS going to have a very small, and like as not very unprofitable player base. Just because someone does not have your viewpoint does not make them wrong or misguided.
Gee, you don't get it do you? Your perfect MMO would be perfect alright only you and a few select others would be playing it. Ever think what permanent death would do to the support group. Constant petitions about how such and such game glitch killed them or they lost connection....etc. It be a support nightmare to say the least. What you left you off your little treatise, is that MMO's cost money to make, and must have a certain level of playerbase to support it. What you propose would have neither. Next time think a bit before you write something so ignorant.
Actually you should really think before posting makeing yourself look like a fool.
Where is he wrong , any MMORPG that enforces perma death for ALL players IS going to have a very small, and like as not very unprofitable player base. Just because someone does not have your viewpoint does not make them wrong or misguided.
Both sides are merely opinions. Personally, I believe perma death when implemented correctly could allow for a better nextgen game with more immerrsion, danger, and social connotations.
The problem is with the current crop and design of EQ clones scattering the landscape, permadeath isn't appropriate. In a better designed game with a more intricate world, it'd not only be appropriate, it'd allow for a far deeper and more indepth gameplay than the current treadmills populated by stats mongers where the term death has absolutely no meaning or relevance at all.
Permadeath will come and it'll be the nextgen of game. I'm sorry, the instance based static respawn design limits MMOs. It in no way enables them as so many think.
Gee, you don't get it do you? Your perfect MMO would be perfect alright only you and a few select others would be playing it. Ever think what permanent death would do to the support group. Constant petitions about how such and such game glitch killed them or they lost connection....etc. It be a support nightmare to say the least. What you left you off your little treatise, is that MMO's cost money to make, and must have a certain level of playerbase to support it. What you propose would have neither. Next time think a bit before you write something so ignorant.
Actually you should really think before posting makeing yourself look like a fool.
Where is he wrong , any MMORPG that enforces perma death for ALL players IS going to have a very small, and like as not very unprofitable player base. Just because someone does not have your viewpoint does not make them wrong or misguided.
So u just decided nobody is going to play a game like that because u know whats on the minds of the millions of mmorpg gamers...
Thats such a stupid reasoning...
U cant say if ppl is going to play it or not, or basicly u cant say for sure if it is going to be GREAT or not because nobody has done something like that... only muds... and that doesnt count lol...
Companies wont do something like this not because it wont have a big fan base but because it is going to be HELLA difficult they gotta reinvent the whole mmorpg genre to do something like this
Well lets hope Age of Conan has huge sucess, even when they dont add all that much realism they do implement some new things that take mmorpgs in the right way
Meaningful PvP, Real time combat, a combat system that takes ehmm skill?, etc...
Gee, you don't get it do you? Your perfect MMO would be perfect alright only you and a few select others would be playing it. Ever think what permanent death would do to the support group. Constant petitions about how such and such game glitch killed them or they lost connection....etc. It be a support nightmare to say the least. What you left you off your little treatise, is that MMO's cost money to make, and must have a certain level of playerbase to support it. What you propose would have neither. Next time think a bit before you write something so ignorant.
Actually you should really think before posting makeing yourself look like a fool.
Where is he wrong , any MMORPG that enforces perma death for ALL players IS going to have a very small, and like as not very unprofitable player base. Just because someone does not have your viewpoint does not make them wrong or misguided.
Both sides are merely opinions. Personally, I believe perma death when implemented correctly could allow for a better nextgen game with more immerrsion, danger, and social connotations.
The problem is with the current crop and design of EQ clones scattering the landscape, permadeath isn't appropriate. In a better designed game with a more intricate world, it'd not only be appropriate, it'd allow for a far deeper and more indepth gameplay than the current treadmills populated by stats mongers where the term death has absolutely no meaning or relevance at all.
Permadeath will come and it'll be the nextgen of game. I'm sorry, the instance based static respawn design limits MMOs. It in no way enables them as so many think.
/agree...
There is lot of limitations to make a game with all this features
First it needs money lots n lots of money... then great developers, a nice publisher that wont push something so revolutionary and lastly the hardest part is planning how it is going to be i think thats the toughest part even harder than coding...
Hardware and connections also limit how big mmorpgs can be... look at shadowbane... there was no way u could have good fps in a big battle it was crap...
And the last thing is time... such a next gen game could take more than 6 years...
I don't like it when you have to worry about carrying enough food to feed your character's hunger every 15 minutes. If you run then your stamina wears out and you have to rest. You just buy a new weapon and if you use it too much the blade gets dull and will eventually break unless repaired. I generally don't like ideas like that because they take much enjoyment out of the game. It's supposed to be a game and you're supposed to have fun while playing it. Adding all those realistic ideas just hinders my enjoyment of a game because I would have to constantly worry and i've got enough of that in real life.
It's a nice idea though and i'm sure some will enjoy it but I prefer to use my game time to escape from reality.
I don't like it when you have to worry about carrying enough food to feed your character's hunger every 15 minutes. If you run then your stamina wears out and you have to rest. You just buy a new weapon and if you use it too much the blade gets dull and will eventually break unless repaired. I generally don't like ideas like that because they take much enjoyment out of the game. It's supposed to be a game and you're supposed to have fun while playing it. Adding all those realistic ideas just hinders my enjoyment of a game because I would have to constantly worry and i've got enough of that in real life. It's a nice idea though and i'm sure some will enjoy it but I prefer to use my game time to escape from reality.
It all depends on how it's implemented, though.
I enjoy weapon degradation because it contributes to the crafting economy, and encourages players to "save" that "special" weapon for special occations, instead of simply always using their best one. It fixes the "everything but the best is useless" issue you often run into in mmo's with an inflated economy.
I enjoy characters being able to use (but not relying on) food and drink as it makes a good money sink, and again encourages the crafting community (assuming you can craft the food and drink). EQ2 has a good system for this, with how food/drink is really cheap, and you "equip" it, making your character take from it whenever he gets hungry or thirsty. When you run out, you aren't penalized, rather you just don't get that small out-of-combat regeneration buff you normally would.
Stamina usage from running can be a good thing if it adds to the tactical game in terms of kiting, fleeing, draining, and such. Allowing characters to run without stamina in shadowbane for example, would skew the pvp balance.
Of course, there are bad examples too, I'm just saying it's not always for the worse. Details like that aren't always in "just to make it realistic", but are often there as part of a bigger scheme. Money sinks and crafting being the usual ones.
Well, some interesting replies here (and some completely pointless ones). I have read what everyone has to say, and I have a couple of responses.
First of all, before you reply, I suggest you read the majority of the posts in the thread. I know saying this will not help, because my post is too long for some people to read ("ugh, I'm not reading all that... I'll call him and idiot and move on").
Although Ciredric has a slight point in that a game with permandeath would most likely have a smaller player base, I am convinced that if done right, it could still attract enough players to be economically defendable (it's all about tapping different markets).
Second, what pretty much all of the supporters are saying here is that it would NOT work to just slap permadeath in todays generic MMOs. I agree that it would not work, period. However, the MMO industry today suffers from a serious case of tunnel vision, with a few slight exceptions. An MMO that truly broke the mold could do miracles. The problem is of course the risk of making such an MMO. It could be a smash hit, but also a total flop. So naturally, companies stick with what is safe. I do not blame them, it is just a shame that things work that way.
The next huge breakthrough will be made by developers that do not have to worry about the economic implications. As an example, Sirens is being developed as a university project and thus sponsored by the university. The goal with Sirens is not to make money, and I think it is in projects like these we will have to look for the next major breakthrough.
Oh and I am not saying permadeath should be added to make things realistic, but to make them interesting. Yes, a game with total realism (have to blow your nose when you have a cold) would be boring. Then again, no one here suggested that, did they?
I'm not going to add any more to the permadeath discussion in particular, I pretty much covered it in my last post (which some people clearly did not read).
In a MMORPG when you die, nothing is reset no matter how many times you die. It leads to boredom and a sense that your characters actions are futile. Sure you improved your avatar overtime but nothing else you have done means anything in that game world. Thats why when people relate to permadeath in a MMORPG they are so horrified.
" Without my avatar what would I have? In most games... nothing."
That shows that there is a fundamental flaw in the game design.
You can't expand much on the genre because of this flaw. Anything that could inhibit or prevent the basic concept of the game, improving your avatar, can't be implemented. If you do implement something that interferes with this core mechanic you have to make sure that disruption is minimal. (This flaw is why every game seems like a clone of the last game. You simply can't do much with the genre, wow is pretty much the epitome of what can be done)
Yes you should be able to improve your avatar but that should not be the focus of the game. First of all its unrealistic, when Borimir died in LoTR he did not respawn in Rohan with half life and a death shroud and jump on his horse to rejoin the fray. Nor did Lurtz or any of the thousand or so Urak Hai or Orcs. Second it detracts from the excitement of the game, its tough to get ramped up over combat if death has no effect. Its simply a pointless exchange of blows to 'Test your template' or get a free ride home to reequip. (Or not if you had no items to begin with) Your guild will want to go RAID someone and the Guild leader would say Why? Ok we'll go do some PvP, We'll win or we'll lose and neither they nor us will be worse for the wear. Yey lets go. Third point, because the focus of the game is solely on improving your avatar then there is no point to anything that does not improve your avatar.
The most common responses in order are: Of course death in MMORPGS in unrealistic, its supposed to be a game. Why spend all this time leveling up to chance permenantly losing my avatar... (My response is always see points 2 and 3)
2cd We raid and PvP to improve our twitch skills. Its a mmorpg, compared with Counterstrike you have no twitch skills. You've got be kidding me. Most mmorpgs you click use a skill or cast a spell and hope it actually happens lol.
3rd, If the focus is not on improving my avatar what would the focus be... How long would character development take... etc etc. These are people that are thinking about it usually and usually say hmmmmmmm, This has merit if done correctly. Permadeath in WoW is a stupid idea because WoW is almost exclusively focused on developing your avatar and aquiring stuff.
I think permadeath is the worst feature in real life, so I can't see why we need to have it in MMORPGs.
Yeah but it rocks in games doesnt it? Every year Baseball gets their stats reset and try to fight there way back to the World series... And not every team is winner is it? There can be only one. Same with hockey, football etc.... By your logic if the yankees lost the World series they should get naked, have a time out and goto the locker room and come back ready to rock for another go at the world series.... When people lose THEY LOSE. Game OVER. The system Baseball uses now is almost EXACTLY what people are asking for in game. Think about it because it paradigms almost as well as boxing.
Like baseball there should be a short ramp up in terms of skills and a refocus of the game on actions. I actually have systems designed that would account for permadeath while still allowing some of the traditional mmorpg concepts... (Ie... Leveling up and Getting stuff). There are even ways to account for lag deaths and such that don't break a permadeath system. (See the Diggs in the First post for some PD Systems I advocate.)
UO, prepatch, pretrammel, could have actually made PD work. People were macroing GM in 5 different skills at the expense of a few gold coins every 7 days. Granted some changes still would have to have been made... but not much if the system was setup right.
UO had no tell when I played and we had to recall using runes and TALK to people to figure out where our friends were.... Be social. Acknowledge the other players. Now a days people in games /tell dude Nice Template, What are stats? Or /tell got a cleric? The world their in is completely meaningless... its just a grind for the ultimate goal... NEXT LEVEL, MORE STUFF.
You can have a game with a progressive leveling system and a stuff system but you surely cant design the game to revolve SOLELY around that. If you do, you get wow... I guess there's money in it but to me its just a commercialized remake of the last game with no substance and nothing worthwhile to do. I had a max toon before and lots of stuff... you got something else to offer besides new graphics and classes?
Even the AI among games is the same.
People love it, they make millions for giving you a shiner model every few years with no innovation. Some of us want to get back to the CORE roots of the game and innovate and redesign it for the masses with a focus on the game and not all the focus just on yourself, your stuff and your level.
Think of the treadmills at your local gym... Now paint one blue and call it wow, another green and call it eq2 and another brown and call it daoc. Some are newer and have different levels of incline and various speed levels but their all treadmills and players walk all over them ignoring all the shiny features after the honeymoon and work on walking as quickly as possible to get them and their avatar in shape.
These games, quite frankly, suck. The show a lack of imagination and exploit the honeymoon period as a way to sink the hook and reel your mastercard in. It works as a business model, but MMORPG is supposed to be filled with gamers who expect more then the last game regurgitated and reconsitituted as the New Coke. Even leaving permadeath aside, the industry has not innovated anything new since UO unless you count 2D to 3D and the two games that feature voice chat lol.
I expect more and Im passionate about getting a new game to entertain me before Im dead.
I would definately play a game that had perma-death as a feature. There are also a number of ways/features that could be included to make perma-death work, and could let the player continue (maybe a few steps behind where they were) to play as possible a child or relative of their former character, or possibly some kind of reincarnation (lower in level, different in appearance etc, but possibly with some remaining traits or abilities from the previous character).
Perma-death woulnd have to be implemented very carefully, and I'm pretty sure that the whole game engine and idea would have to be developed with PD in mind (I don't think EQ2 with a "perma-death" server would cut it). A game containing perma-death would also surely have to cut out some of the grind to be attractive to players and would also have to be more skill based rather than item based when it came to PvP.
Have a look at Trials of Ascension - A game which is currently seeking a publisher. They seem to have some fairly good ideas on how to implement Perma-death PvP ..... and if it were to be released tomorrow i'd be there in a flash!
To all those that think the idea of perma-death PvP stinks, fair enough. But be constructive and give it a chance if it ever makes an appearance one day
A lot of games coming out have instance PvP and PvE. They ususally reset when someone wins or every week. Why not add death to these instances. When you die you can't go back til it resets. This would keep the character progress but add that perma death feeling to game aswell.
EDIT: BTW I dislike most mmogs becuase of the RISK and REWARD. That factor needs to be done right for a permadeath mmog.
-- "Any free people have the right to choose how it wants to be govern thats the essence of democracy. It's sad when America has chosen for the stability and consistency of a dictatorship and doing it democratically" -utnow
I think permadeath is the worst feature in real life, so I can't see why we need to have it in MMORPGs.
Yeah but it rocks in games doesnt it? Every year Baseball gets their stats reset and try to fight there way back to the World series... And not every team is winner is it? There can be only one. Same with hockey, football etc.... By your logic if the yankees lost the World series they should get naked, have a time out and goto the locker room and come back ready to rock for another go at the world series.... When people lose THEY LOSE. Game OVER. The system Baseball uses now is almost EXACTLY what people are asking for in game. Think about it because it paradigms almost as well as boxing.
If you're going to compare it to baseball, or any other sport for that matter, I think that a better analogy would be not only stat reset but also a complete team reset. Imagine for a minute that you are George Steinbrenner of the NY Yankees and your team does not make it to the playoffs, which is something to be expected since your whole team is nothing more than a glorified geriatrics care unit. Anyway, say your team loses and if you're going going to follow the perma-death approach, the whole team needs to be disbanded and the whole NY Yankee franchise needs to be removed. You are dead... forever.
Now comes next season and you have to see if you can build the whole franchise all over again. Permadeath in a game is losing everything and starting all over again. Any other approach is simply existing rulesets masked as permadeath.
For what it's worth, permadeath is an interesting approach that gets brought up every once in a while but will not work with the direction MMORPGs are taking. More and more MMORPGs are atempting to become as userfriendly as possible, permadeath is the complete opposite of this approach. Gone are the days of Ultima Online and Everquest where only the select few had access to them. These days, most households have a computer and as such emerging and current MMORPGs are atempting to cater to a much broader spectrum than during the days of UO and EQ. Just look at how successful WoW has become because of it's userfriendly approach.
Remember that first and foremost, MMORPGs are created so that the developers can make money. More players = more money. Therefore it is imperative to entice as many people as possible. And while I agree that games should be much more in depth than they are now, permadeath is something that should be left out or kept to a separate server.
The idea that MMO's are first and foremost around to make money is something that only began to arise with the release of WoW and other such HUGE MMO's. There has always been a potential for MMO's to make a vast ammount of money, however in the beginning I don't think that this was the main priority (at least not above making a game that will attract and hold a players attention).
With more and more MMO's being released in "easy-mode", being completely user friendly and offering no real challenge for the majority of players I can see the door opening for more "niche" MMO's (especially PvP and yes, perma-death MMO's) to claim a decent slice of the pie. No matter how much we are outnumbered, and no matter how much other more 'casual' players fail to udnerstand it, there are those of us who don't want everything given to us or explained to us in a game.
Some of us don't want to feel completely safe ingame and would rather die trying to restock on spell comps than log onto the same boring, linear world each day.
Depends on the game, but I would really never play an MMORPG with permadeath, and I doubt many other people would. No way would I spend hours on a character just to have them wipe because I lagged or mis-clicked.
The idea that MMO's are first and foremost around to make money is something that only began to arise with the release of WoW and other such HUGE MMO's. There has always been a potential for MMO's to make a vast ammount of money, however in the beginning I don't think that this was the main priority (at least not above making a game that will attract and hold a players attention). Absolutely not true. You're trying to tell me that companies like Origin, EA, Sony, Funcom and countless others spent millions of dollars and countless men hours just to see if they can "attract and hold players attention"? In the long run, is it not the same thing? I mean you're talking about a game with an initial cost and a monthly fee. So if you "attract and hold players" you're trying to make money. I got news for you, the corporations that create these games do so to make money, just like they've been doing it since the days of Ultima Online. Because although their specialty is entertainment, their goal is to make money and show a greater return in the next fiscal year. With more and more MMO's being released in "easy-mode", being completely user friendly and offering no real challenge for the majority of players I can see the door opening for more "niche" MMO's (especially PvP and yes, perma-death MMO's) to claim a decent slice of the pie. No matter how much we are outnumbered, and no matter how much other more 'casual' players fail to udnerstand it, there are those of us who don't want everything given to us or explained to us in a game. Honestly, I don't see that happening any time soon because the last few "niche" games that were released either went under or are barely surviving. However, I would like to point out the biggest misconceptions "hardcore" gamers have about "casual" ones. Casual gamers don't want everything given to them and explained. They love challenge just as much as the next guy, the biggest difference is that us casuals preffer to play games that allow us to log on for 30 mins and accomplish something. Now if you consider that "easy-mode" you will never understand why perma-death will not work. Some of us don't want to feel completely safe ingame and would rather die trying to restock on spell comps than log onto the same boring, linear world each day. Again, some misguided views here. Perma-death is not a requirement in order for the game to feel unsafe, less boring and non-linear. Harsh penalties are not needed for the game to be fun.
Permadeath is a pretty stupid idea, unless you want the pain of re-leveling you char over and over again. Like playing an adventure game without a save option. Sounds challenging, but in reality you'll tolerate it for a little while and in the end just give up.
Permadeath fans, what examples of non-mmorpg games are there that have this? I can think of a couple of games which are basically arcade games that you have three lives or whatever and then you die and you have to complete the whole game on that without any continues. R-type Delta is one example, you get like 5 lives and you have to complete the whole game on that before getting a gameover and having to start from the beginning again. With that though a session can only be up to an hour compared to a mmorpg which could go on days. Although I also know there is a popular NWN mod (persistant game) which is meant to have permadeath and having to start over but can't tell you any details about it apart from its pvp focused.
Well I always enjoyed playing AvP2 on top difficulty. There were no saves then, you had to get through each level without dying, period. That was no easy thing, but man did it make the game tense when playing the Marine campaign.
The Hitman series sports the same idea, on top difficulty you can not save until you have finished a mission. Again, some of the more tense gameplay I have experienced. It is simple, the more you have to lose, the more tense a situation gets. Of course, when bringing the concept into an MMO you have to be careful with the balance, since you do not want to lose TOO much.
As for people like ripDip and Kenichi, it is clear you are not getting the message, so let me repeat myself one more time: We are NOT talking about putting PD into your favourite treadmill MMO. The game would need a completely different reward system than what we are used to in todays dull, repetative games that are all about getting to the next level so you can get better skills so you can go into bigger dungeons and get bigger swords. Bleh.
Hmm, well it's a nice idea. I would probably try a permadeath game out of curiousity just to see how it works. I must admit though, if I am roleplaying in a game, the worst thing to happen is all of a sudden in 'general chat' some guy called XxSephirothxX starts yelling about Chuck Norris or something. Certainly takes away the 'roleplaying' feel. But I guess you can't stop people from talking. =P Probably why I stopped playing on RP servers in games.
Even the OP has the definition of permadeath completely wrong...
In true permadeath, your avatar dies and loses all equipment, your avatar's name is retired and cannot be used again, the software itself is automatically uninstalled from your computer, your activation key is expired, and your credit card gets charged for an extra month. You have to go out and buy a new box and key, re-install, create a new account with a new credit card and start all over again.
People play MMO games to get away from the REAL World and REAL world rules. So why would they want the game to be more real?
Permadeath is not a popular idea for online games. First there is the game glitch/lag problem. You can't get rid of lag, so what happens when you die because you LDed? Secondly Permadeath combined with PVP is a horrible idea unless there is no leveling or building up of the character at all. Basically unless the game is like Counterstrike and you can just log back in there is absolutely no reason to implement permadeath. Imagine back on Asheron's Call 1 darktide (one of hte most hardcore PVP games) if you had permadeath. Logging in for the first time you can expect to die atleast a dozen times before you made it out of the starter area, due to some bored ahole who had his level 50+ character camped there killing noobs. So tell me how likely are people who aren't already higher level to do this? Plus if you were a higher level and got killed how likely are you to deal with that camping and repeated deaths before you said forget it.
Anything that makes the game more of a pain is not going to work in today's market. Yes you might get a niche game and I really hope one comes out, but don't expect it to be more then a MXo level of subscribers (sub 50K). If you honestly think a game with more hardcore full PVP will do LOTRO, EQ1, DAoC, or WoW like numbers here in the West then you have no idea what the western market (as a whole) wants. There is a reason that LOTRO looks to be the second highest selling game in the West after WoW.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
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"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
The current plethora of MMORPGs have been watered down from the original concept. Instead of assuming a role in a virtual world where we as players affect and drive the plot the genre has focused too much on graphics and ease of play. Agreed some concessions need to be made to make the whole concept fun but the core of the simulation has been lost due to the number of concessions developers are taking.
Developers are focusing on current game concepts like mezzs, stuns, respawns and chat systems for example rather then focusing on core mechanics of what their trying to create. In a lot of ways their stuck in eternally creating the sequel to the last game. Which is really what their creating... a game.
Sure a MMORPG is a game but it's supposed to be a game for me not for my avatar. Once I've assumed the role of my avatar it should feel real in the context of the world I'm now in. I should be able for the most part to immerse myself in that world and feel like I'm there. Current mmorpgs just don't have the depth.
When I'm in a MMORPG these days most questions and talking that goes on in game is about where this questie is, or what discipline should I take, what template is the best... The world doesn't exist to my avatar in game and I'm not even 1% immersed. Most MMORPGs are straight forward refined chat systems with some number crunching battle system.
Pre-Patch UO had more core concepts focusing on a virtual world then any game proceding it. Consequently it was the most fun and allowed for the most immersions. In game when you met another player to go adventuring or a pk who was trying to kill you the focused on the game at hand. They assumed the role of their character. Sure lol and rofl etc came up, but their supposed too. Its not like we had emotes to laugh then etc. Most conversation was related to the game world rather then the game. This was not enforced it was simply possible due to the depth of the world.
I realized this when adding a DAOC like quest to my virtual world... I was changing the immersion level drastically and implementing a quest system which took away from the game. Now I am going to have players looking for Thistle... were does he spawn etc etc.... I played with it a lot, I gave thistle a house and a background and a reason for being there. I took away his ability to respawn thus if someone killed him the quest would vanish from their quest list (And all players quest list...) As I got into it though I pulled everything out. It didn't fit and it didn't work. I was artificially driving players to play a mini game to further themselves. I'm not picking on quests, but in general I think they suck... PC driven quests would be so much more immersive and unique, but I'm driving at a point somewhere along here. MMORPGs need to stop trying to create mini games because those mini games BECOME their game. They need to stop lame justification attempts at immortaility and no death penalties... They need to stop showing us exact statistics and creating a min/max game.
Instead focus on immersions... The world itself with core items like the weather, fauna and animals that inhabit. Having them is great but make sure they all effect us... That is if we kill all the deer in an area then maybe next year their won't be any deer to eat... If we're trekking through the hot sun require us to drink more water... (Sure the drinking can be automated so I dont constantly have to click drink water but you would NEED to have water on you) Focus on player interaction and making conflict between the players meaningful.
If you're addong a telnet/mirc/browser client to your game along with it's already existing chat room it sounds like your working on a New operating system or version of AOL rather then a new MMORPG. Does your browser have SPYWARE Blockers? What about sercuity patches for exploits? When these features get introduced you can almost feel the ignorance of the designers... Guys lets spend 4 months focusing on nonsense features which are going to just cause us headaches throughout the entire cycle of the game RATHER then focusing on the world itself.
Permadeath in a MMORPG is a bad idea, the OP seems to have warped what a MMORPG is for his own purposes, RPG is role playing where people invest time in developing and growing a character, to have mandatory permadeath in any MMORPG for all players will guarantee that game a quick death, however a semi voluntary approach such as was in the original SWG Jedi could work, but since a lot of factors outside the players control can contribute to his death I cannot see even this working that well.
Where is he wrong , any MMORPG that enforces perma death for ALL players IS going to have a very small, and like as not very unprofitable player base. Just because someone does not have your viewpoint does not make them wrong or misguided.
Where is he wrong , any MMORPG that enforces perma death for ALL players IS going to have a very small, and like as not very unprofitable player base. Just because someone does not have your viewpoint does not make them wrong or misguided.
Both sides are merely opinions. Personally, I believe perma death when implemented correctly could allow for a better nextgen game with more immerrsion, danger, and social connotations.
The problem is with the current crop and design of EQ clones scattering the landscape, permadeath isn't appropriate. In a better designed game with a more intricate world, it'd not only be appropriate, it'd allow for a far deeper and more indepth gameplay than the current treadmills populated by stats mongers where the term death has absolutely no meaning or relevance at all.
Permadeath will come and it'll be the nextgen of game. I'm sorry, the instance based static respawn design limits MMOs. It in no way enables them as so many think.
Where is he wrong , any MMORPG that enforces perma death for ALL players IS going to have a very small, and like as not very unprofitable player base. Just because someone does not have your viewpoint does not make them wrong or misguided.
So u just decided nobody is going to play a game like that because u know whats on the minds of the millions of mmorpg gamers...
Thats such a stupid reasoning...
U cant say if ppl is going to play it or not, or basicly u cant say for sure if it is going to be GREAT or not because nobody has done something like that... only muds... and that doesnt count lol...
Companies wont do something like this not because it wont have a big fan base but because it is going to be HELLA difficult they gotta reinvent the whole mmorpg genre to do something like this
Well lets hope Age of Conan has huge sucess, even when they dont add all that much realism they do implement some new things that take mmorpgs in the right way
Meaningful PvP, Real time combat, a combat system that takes ehmm skill?, etc...
Where is he wrong , any MMORPG that enforces perma death for ALL players IS going to have a very small, and like as not very unprofitable player base. Just because someone does not have your viewpoint does not make them wrong or misguided.
Both sides are merely opinions. Personally, I believe perma death when implemented correctly could allow for a better nextgen game with more immerrsion, danger, and social connotations.
The problem is with the current crop and design of EQ clones scattering the landscape, permadeath isn't appropriate. In a better designed game with a more intricate world, it'd not only be appropriate, it'd allow for a far deeper and more indepth gameplay than the current treadmills populated by stats mongers where the term death has absolutely no meaning or relevance at all.
Permadeath will come and it'll be the nextgen of game. I'm sorry, the instance based static respawn design limits MMOs. It in no way enables them as so many think.
/agree...
There is lot of limitations to make a game with all this features
First it needs money lots n lots of money... then great developers, a nice publisher that wont push something so revolutionary and lastly the hardest part is planning how it is going to be i think thats the toughest part even harder than coding...
Hardware and connections also limit how big mmorpgs can be... look at shadowbane... there was no way u could have good fps in a big battle it was crap...
And the last thing is time... such a next gen game could take more than 6 years...
I don't like it when you have to worry about carrying enough food to feed your character's hunger every 15 minutes. If you run then your stamina wears out and you have to rest. You just buy a new weapon and if you use it too much the blade gets dull and will eventually break unless repaired. I generally don't like ideas like that because they take much enjoyment out of the game. It's supposed to be a game and you're supposed to have fun while playing it. Adding all those realistic ideas just hinders my enjoyment of a game because I would have to constantly worry and i've got enough of that in real life.
It's a nice idea though and i'm sure some will enjoy it but I prefer to use my game time to escape from reality.
I enjoy weapon degradation because it contributes to the crafting economy, and encourages players to "save" that "special" weapon for special occations, instead of simply always using their best one. It fixes the "everything but the best is useless" issue you often run into in mmo's with an inflated economy.
I enjoy characters being able to use (but not relying on) food and drink as it makes a good money sink, and again encourages the crafting community (assuming you can craft the food and drink). EQ2 has a good system for this, with how food/drink is really cheap, and you "equip" it, making your character take from it whenever he gets hungry or thirsty. When you run out, you aren't penalized, rather you just don't get that small out-of-combat regeneration buff you normally would.
Stamina usage from running can be a good thing if it adds to the tactical game in terms of kiting, fleeing, draining, and such. Allowing characters to run without stamina in shadowbane for example, would skew the pvp balance.
Of course, there are bad examples too, I'm just saying it's not always for the worse. Details like that aren't always in "just to make it realistic", but are often there as part of a bigger scheme. Money sinks and crafting being the usual ones.
First of all, before you reply, I suggest you read the majority of the posts in the thread. I know saying this will not help, because my post is too long for some people to read ("ugh, I'm not reading all that... I'll call him and idiot and move on").
Although Ciredric has a slight point in that a game with permandeath would most likely have a smaller player base, I am convinced that if done right, it could still attract enough players to be economically defendable (it's all about tapping different markets).
Second, what pretty much all of the supporters are saying here is that it would NOT work to just slap permadeath in todays generic MMOs. I agree that it would not work, period. However, the MMO industry today suffers from a serious case of tunnel vision, with a few slight exceptions. An MMO that truly broke the mold could do miracles. The problem is of course the risk of making such an MMO. It could be a smash hit, but also a total flop. So naturally, companies stick with what is safe. I do not blame them, it is just a shame that things work that way.
The next huge breakthrough will be made by developers that do not have to worry about the economic implications. As an example, Sirens is being developed as a university project and thus sponsored by the university. The goal with Sirens is not to make money, and I think it is in projects like these we will have to look for the next major breakthrough.
Oh and I am not saying permadeath should be added to make things realistic, but to make them interesting. Yes, a game with total realism (have to blow your nose when you have a cold) would be boring. Then again, no one here suggested that, did they?
I'm not going to add any more to the permadeath discussion in particular, I pretty much covered it in my last post (which some people clearly did not read).
[DTE]
In a MMORPG when you die, nothing is reset no matter how many times you die. It leads to boredom and a sense that your characters actions are futile. Sure you improved your avatar overtime but nothing else you have done means anything in that game world. Thats why when people relate to permadeath in a MMORPG they are so horrified.
" Without my avatar what would I have? In most games... nothing."
That shows that there is a fundamental flaw in the game design.
You can't expand much on the genre because of this flaw. Anything that could inhibit or prevent the basic concept of the game, improving your avatar, can't be implemented. If you do implement something that interferes with this core mechanic you have to make sure that disruption is minimal. (This flaw is why every game seems like a clone of the last game. You simply can't do much with the genre, wow is pretty much the epitome of what can be done)
Yes you should be able to improve your avatar but that should not be the focus of the game. First of all its unrealistic, when Borimir died in LoTR he did not respawn in Rohan with half life and a death shroud and jump on his horse to rejoin the fray. Nor did Lurtz or any of the thousand or so Urak Hai or Orcs. Second it detracts from the excitement of the game, its tough to get ramped up over combat if death has no effect. Its simply a pointless exchange of blows to 'Test your template' or get a free ride home to reequip. (Or not if you had no items to begin with) Your guild will want to go RAID someone and the Guild leader would say Why? Ok we'll go do some PvP, We'll win or we'll lose and neither they nor us will be worse for the wear. Yey lets go. Third point, because the focus of the game is solely on improving your avatar then there is no point to anything that does not improve your avatar.
The most common responses in order are: Of course death in MMORPGS in unrealistic, its supposed to be a game. Why spend all this time leveling up to chance permenantly losing my avatar... (My response is always see points 2 and 3)
2cd We raid and PvP to improve our twitch skills. Its a mmorpg, compared with Counterstrike you have no twitch skills. You've got be kidding me. Most mmorpgs you click use a skill or cast a spell and hope it actually happens lol.
3rd, If the focus is not on improving my avatar what would the focus be... How long would character development take... etc etc. These are people that are thinking about it usually and usually say hmmmmmmm, This has merit if done correctly. Permadeath in WoW is a stupid idea because WoW is almost exclusively focused on developing your avatar and aquiring stuff.
Yeah but it rocks in games doesnt it? Every year Baseball gets their stats reset and try to fight there way back to the World series... And not every team is winner is it? There can be only one. Same with hockey, football etc.... By your logic if the yankees lost the World series they should get naked, have a time out and goto the locker room and come back ready to rock for another go at the world series.... When people lose THEY LOSE. Game OVER. The system Baseball uses now is almost EXACTLY what people are asking for in game. Think about it because it paradigms almost as well as boxing.
Like baseball there should be a short ramp up in terms of skills and a refocus of the game on actions. I actually have systems designed that would account for permadeath while still allowing some of the traditional mmorpg concepts... (Ie... Leveling up and Getting stuff). There are even ways to account for lag deaths and such that don't break a permadeath system. (See the Diggs in the First post for some PD Systems I advocate.)
UO, prepatch, pretrammel, could have actually made PD work. People were macroing GM in 5 different skills at the expense of a few gold coins every 7 days. Granted some changes still would have to have been made... but not much if the system was setup right.
UO had no tell when I played and we had to recall using runes and TALK to people to figure out where our friends were.... Be social. Acknowledge the other players. Now a days people in games /tell dude Nice Template, What are stats? Or /tell got a cleric? The world their in is completely meaningless... its just a grind for the ultimate goal... NEXT LEVEL, MORE STUFF.
You can have a game with a progressive leveling system and a stuff system but you surely cant design the game to revolve SOLELY around that. If you do, you get wow... I guess there's money in it but to me its just a commercialized remake of the last game with no substance and nothing worthwhile to do. I had a max toon before and lots of stuff... you got something else to offer besides new graphics and classes?
Even the AI among games is the same.
People love it, they make millions for giving you a shiner model every few years with no innovation. Some of us want to get back to the CORE roots of the game and innovate and redesign it for the masses with a focus on the game and not all the focus just on yourself, your stuff and your level.
Think of the treadmills at your local gym... Now paint one blue and call it wow, another green and call it eq2 and another brown and call it daoc. Some are newer and have different levels of incline and various speed levels but their all treadmills and players walk all over them ignoring all the shiny features after the honeymoon and work on walking as quickly as possible to get them and their avatar in shape.
These games, quite frankly, suck. The show a lack of imagination and exploit the honeymoon period as a way to sink the hook and reel your mastercard in. It works as a business model, but MMORPG is supposed to be filled with gamers who expect more then the last game regurgitated and reconsitituted as the New Coke. Even leaving permadeath aside, the industry has not innovated anything new since UO unless you count 2D to 3D and the two games that feature voice chat lol.
I expect more and Im passionate about getting a new game to entertain me before Im dead.
I would definately play a game that had perma-death as a feature. There are also a number of ways/features that could be included to make perma-death work, and could let the player continue (maybe a few steps behind where they were) to play as possible a child or relative of their former character, or possibly some kind of reincarnation (lower in level, different in appearance etc, but possibly with some remaining traits or abilities from the previous character).
Perma-death woulnd have to be implemented very carefully, and I'm pretty sure that the whole game engine and idea would have to be developed with PD in mind (I don't think EQ2 with a "perma-death" server would cut it). A game containing perma-death would also surely have to cut out some of the grind to be attractive to players and would also have to be more skill based rather than item based when it came to PvP.
Have a look at Trials of Ascension - A game which is currently seeking a publisher. They seem to have some fairly good ideas on how to implement Perma-death PvP ..... and if it were to be released tomorrow i'd be there in a flash!
To all those that think the idea of perma-death PvP stinks, fair enough. But be constructive and give it a chance if it ever makes an appearance one day
EDIT - The previous post ROCKS.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
EDIT: BTW I dislike most mmogs becuase of the RISK and REWARD. That factor needs to be done right for a permadeath mmog.
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"Any free people have the right to choose how it wants to be govern thats the essence of democracy. It's sad when America has chosen for the stability and consistency of a dictatorship and doing it democratically" -utnow
If you're going to compare it to baseball, or any other sport for that matter, I think that a better analogy would be not only stat reset but also a complete team reset. Imagine for a minute that you are George Steinbrenner of the NY Yankees and your team does not make it to the playoffs, which is something to be expected since your whole team is nothing more than a glorified geriatrics care unit. Anyway, say your team loses and if you're going going to follow the perma-death approach, the whole team needs to be disbanded and the whole NY Yankee franchise needs to be removed. You are dead... forever.
Now comes next season and you have to see if you can build the whole franchise all over again. Permadeath in a game is losing everything and starting all over again. Any other approach is simply existing rulesets masked as permadeath.
For what it's worth, permadeath is an interesting approach that gets brought up every once in a while but will not work with the direction MMORPGs are taking. More and more MMORPGs are atempting to become as userfriendly as possible, permadeath is the complete opposite of this approach. Gone are the days of Ultima Online and Everquest where only the select few had access to them. These days, most households have a computer and as such emerging and current MMORPGs are atempting to cater to a much broader spectrum than during the days of UO and EQ. Just look at how successful WoW has become because of it's userfriendly approach.
Remember that first and foremost, MMORPGs are created so that the developers can make money. More players = more money. Therefore it is imperative to entice as many people as possible. And while I agree that games should be much more in depth than they are now, permadeath is something that should be left out or kept to a separate server.
The idea that MMO's are first and foremost around to make money is something that only began to arise with the release of WoW and other such HUGE MMO's. There has always been a potential for MMO's to make a vast ammount of money, however in the beginning I don't think that this was the main priority (at least not above making a game that will attract and hold a players attention).
With more and more MMO's being released in "easy-mode", being completely user friendly and offering no real challenge for the majority of players I can see the door opening for more "niche" MMO's (especially PvP and yes, perma-death MMO's) to claim a decent slice of the pie. No matter how much we are outnumbered, and no matter how much other more 'casual' players fail to udnerstand it, there are those of us who don't want everything given to us or explained to us in a game.
Some of us don't want to feel completely safe ingame and would rather die trying to restock on spell comps than log onto the same boring, linear world each day.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Permadeath fans, what examples of non-mmorpg games are there that have this? I can think of a couple of games which are basically arcade games that you have three lives or whatever and then you die and you have to complete the whole game on that without any continues. R-type Delta is one example, you get like 5 lives and you have to complete the whole game on that before getting a gameover and having to start from the beginning again. With that though a session can only be up to an hour compared to a mmorpg which could go on days. Although I also know there is a popular NWN mod (persistant game) which is meant to have permadeath and having to start over but can't tell you any details about it apart from its pvp focused.
The Hitman series sports the same idea, on top difficulty you can not save until you have finished a mission. Again, some of the more tense gameplay I have experienced. It is simple, the more you have to lose, the more tense a situation gets. Of course, when bringing the concept into an MMO you have to be careful with the balance, since you do not want to lose TOO much.
As for people like ripDip and Kenichi, it is clear you are not getting the message, so let me repeat myself one more time: We are NOT talking about putting PD into your favourite treadmill MMO. The game would need a completely different reward system than what we are used to in todays dull, repetative games that are all about getting to the next level so you can get better skills so you can go into bigger dungeons and get bigger swords. Bleh.
[DTE]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
In true permadeath, your avatar dies and loses all equipment, your avatar's name is retired and cannot be used again, the software itself is automatically uninstalled from your computer, your activation key is expired, and your credit card gets charged for an extra month. You have to go out and buy a new box and key, re-install, create a new account with a new credit card and start all over again.
Now THAT puts some risk into the game!
People play MMO games to get away from the REAL World and REAL world rules. So why would they want the game to be more real?
Permadeath is not a popular idea for online games. First there is the game glitch/lag problem. You can't get rid of lag, so what happens when you die because you LDed? Secondly Permadeath combined with PVP is a horrible idea unless there is no leveling or building up of the character at all. Basically unless the game is like Counterstrike and you can just log back in there is absolutely no reason to implement permadeath. Imagine back on Asheron's Call 1 darktide (one of hte most hardcore PVP games) if you had permadeath. Logging in for the first time you can expect to die atleast a dozen times before you made it out of the starter area, due to some bored ahole who had his level 50+ character camped there killing noobs. So tell me how likely are people who aren't already higher level to do this? Plus if you were a higher level and got killed how likely are you to deal with that camping and repeated deaths before you said forget it.
Anything that makes the game more of a pain is not going to work in today's market. Yes you might get a niche game and I really hope one comes out, but don't expect it to be more then a MXo level of subscribers (sub 50K). If you honestly think a game with more hardcore full PVP will do LOTRO, EQ1, DAoC, or WoW like numbers here in the West then you have no idea what the western market (as a whole) wants. There is a reason that LOTRO looks to be the second highest selling game in the West after WoW.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)