Azeroth dead? What server are you on? I've got two active toons on a PVP and an RP server and all the mid-level zones are as lively as ever. In fact they seem busier there now then they were 6 months ago tbh. Origimmar was packed to the brim with people last night.
Of course the 60+ players are in Outland. But why wouldn't we be? There's a new expansion out!
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
Of course the 60+ players are in Outland. But why wouldn't we be? There's a new expansion out!
Thats exactly my point, i dont really want to be in outland, when i played in azeroth i wanted to be there when im playing in outland i dont get the same feeling from the game. It doesnt make the expansion bad as such but the game feels different for me, its probably just me but thats my feeling on it! It has nothing to do with losing gear or anything cos all i had at 60 was the PvP set which i didnt mind vendoring for s few gold.
If they had a classic server id probably play there and level up to 60 again, just the Outland zones dont excite me very much! My opinion could change when i get to 70 but i cant tell yet as i am a very slow leveller!
I completely agree with the OP. The expansion for WoW was horrible =/ It made me quit the game.... I had just started killing C'thun with my guild and I was so psyched about getting dark edge of insanity and then suddenly its like..... GO BACK TO SQUARE ONE!!!!!
I played AC.... they came out with tinkering and they totally made all the old gear (GSA) obsolete, but at least we were all getting exp the whole time and progressing our characters. In WOW I remember hitting level 60 after one month.... then two years later they completely destroyed EVERYTHING I had done in the 23 months between hitting 60 and the expansion. LAAAAAAAAME.
You know like all of you i was exited when i heard my old favourate WoW was getting a new expansion. Over a year ago i stoped playing wow as i found the repetative grinding mind numbingly boring so i left my level 60 Paladin for oter games and in the end i felt i did the right thing. Then i hear of this new expansion so i joined the hype and i waited....Impatiently. Then it came out so i got the game re-installed WoW then played this new piece of heaven....and it stank. Just another 10 levels making my gear obselete and 2 races that were no different from any other and gemcraft And almost imediatly i say exactly waht the true purpose of this expansion was....To keep us subscribing. THere was nothing new it was just another 10level grind and the grind to ge the new gear....No thank you i do not want to go back to that again. Palying 10 hours in an instance just for the CHANCE of getting a hat does not appeal to me anymore. And what about the other content you ask such as the spice mining on Dune. welll i found the sandworms interesting and the fremen too. There was of course the capture the flag style PvP that was fun but it wasant enough to keep me inteested.
So my question is wat did you Like/Dislike about the expansion and do you still play?
I am intrigued to find out what you expected from an expansion to WoW. From what I read you seemed to have had some sort of expectations. Did you start the game with expectations that there wouldn't be more grinding? What were you expecting instead? The whole 'risk vs reward' system will always be alive in WoW. That system keeps players who don't play much from accessing content/gear that hardcore gamers can access.
One feature that 'The Burning Crusade' offers is that the gap between raider and casual has gotten smaller. Gear that makes your abilities dazzle is much easier to come by.
From what I've read you seem to have also assumed that level 60 gear was going to remain viable much longer than it did. What experiences in the past led you to believe this? Every expansion I've been a part of has made most gear previous to the expansion look cruddy. If your 60 gear was great from 60 - 70 you would get bored. The grinds and gear rewards via questing are really great. Much greater than any quest pre-60.
Unfortunately thats how it is with any game, some like the expansions and some do not. I, myself like the expansion and my entire guild is having a blast with it. Of course many of us do not play the game to be uber or play to raid 24/7. We play to have fun! Its all how you look at a game I suppose but for me and my guild the expansion has been a good fun time.
I totally agree, I mean in the grand scheme of things, it could be a lot worse, look at all the troubles with Vanguard and EQ II. I would really hate to pay to be playing beta's and thats what people in EQ II and Vanguard are doing. At least the content for WoW is finished before they put it out, weither or not you like that content, at least its DONE. Imagine having to keep playing, paying for something unfinished and hope its good when they are done..... ie: Vanguard and EQ II. Can you please explain how EQ2 is unfinished? The game has been out longer than WoW, has added more (free) content, and is pretty much on par with WoW as far as bugs go. EQ2 is about as polished and finished as WoW is. it was the game's launch that set it back.
BC is a failure, just that many don't know it yet.
It is a failure, because they set the bar too high for the new end game content while making all the old end game content obsolete.
The reputation grind and skill requirements will prevent the vast majority from ever experiencing most of the end game content.
Really a shame that SOE launched EQ2 prematurely as they do with every game, as it is not bad now. It should be a decent Wow competitor. The have definitely added a lot more content than Blizzard has.
I don't know how you arrived at the conclusion that BC is a failure that we have "failed to realize", simply because it obseletes the old end-game content.
Thank god it obseleted that content, I never want to do any of those instances ever again. And I hope the next expansion obseletes BC.
Sure, it might be a failure to people who never saw that content. But you had plenty of time. And this is an MMO, there is always a level of content available to only the most dedicated players. Fortunately, there is a metric crapton of content for Timmy McCasual and his elderly chums.
Failure, my foot!
It's also the fastest selling PC game expansion ever btw. And it has perhaps the highest critical review scores of any MMO expansion, ever. (Except here - of course - because it's not EVE)
So please, explain to me how this expansion a failure?
/taps foot. I'm waiting
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
let me explain wat they did good and wat they did bad...
Good:
- 2 new races which are actually ok
- flying mounts
- arenas
Bad:
- less of a community now (people used to hang out in ironforge and orgrimmar and duel outside the 2 major citys, now theres barely any community left, people attempt to make ironforge and orgrimmar happening again but its not working and people also try and make shattrath "the place to be" but thats also not working out
- new raids + instances suck... gruul and nightbane are the only 2 guys iv fought so far and said "hmm that was a little interesting" but other then that.. there all boring!
- cant use flying mounts in azeroth... makes sence in real life but doesnt make sence in game... imagine "hey i can fly my bird here but for some magical reason i cant fly it here"
- no reason for old raids... blizzard did all the old raids good, the only one i didnt like was bwl but every single other one was mad and now there worthless... the word bosses in azeroth were also better then doomwalker/kazzak
- new tier armors arnt all that good looking
- no AH at shattrath
- level cap raised... dude i dont mind the extra 10 levels its just that now all the stuff we did at 60 is wasted and we cant ever do any of the old skool stuff
honestly man... when ever i go back to azeroth i feel at home.. i feel good but then when ever im there i know im just wasting time and i should be in outlands doing something productive so i go there and hate it once again.. they went about this expansion wrong, the best thing to do would have been
- no outlands
- flying mounts in azeroth
- keep level cap same
- add more raids/instances in azeroth
- add 2 new races
- new islands etc in the middle of the two islands that u can only get there by flying mount (maybe no boat goes there because the water is too rough" and there u will find a lot of new content etc...
I think you hit the nail on the head by saying that when you go back to Azeroth, you feel like you're at home. I, too, never felt comfortable in any of the BC zones, none. WoW "did" have the best game before TBC, now it's dust in the wind.....(sing along....)
A while ago i wrote this reply in another topic, but i will repost it here because it explains why i think the BC wasn't such a big deal:
I agree with the starter of this topic. There is a new xpack comming and it is going to kick ass. Why you ask? here is why: Blizzard is a company just like anny other, it needs to be able to compete with other games that developers are releasing, their reason of existence is profit, period. If we look at games such as WAR, Vanguard and AOC, we can see that those games have some verry neat feautures like mounted combat, player housing, Ships, etc etc. Blizzard knows damn well that they will have to keep up with this to stay in the loop so they will undoubtly add some of these features into WOW. That's not copying, its called the evolution of the genre (and business strategy). The next Xpac wont have a lvl raising cap.... it will add a lot of new gameplay features like playerhousing, mounted combat, new area's, maybe even guild pvp, the works. As a matter of fact, i'm sure that the BC wasnt such a big deal because of this. Blizzard is aware of the comming competition and they didnt want to shoot all of their gunpowder at once. Mark my words, Blizzard has a awesome expansionpack up its sleeve. They simply cant stay behind of the competition. Either that or the marketeers and dev's at Blizzard are absolutely out of their minds...
-Edit- P.S. I'm not a WoW fanboy...
True. But in order to do that, they need to have the talent to produce such a product and with what we saw in TBC, it's obviously not there. With so many MMORPG's out and others on the Horizon(no pun intended) talent is a commodity not easily afforded.
It's also the fastest selling PC game expansion ever btw. And it has perhaps the highest critical review scores of any MMO expansion, ever. (Except here - of course - because it's not EVE)
So please, explain to me how this expansion a failure?
/taps foot. I'm waiting
No one can say TBC is an economic failure, and as to reviews, they are all written by people well before they reach the end game content. Much like WOW is great fun for everyone from levels 1-70, once you get to the end game you begin to see the "failures" the expansion brings. Most of the reviewers are just jumping on the bandwagon...if they really played the game for any length of time they'd reduce their scores substantially (IMO)
A quick listing.
First, pre-TBC raiding guilds were organized to complete 40 man content. This required from 50-60 dedicated raiders to manage effectively. TBC lowered the maximum to 25, but quite truthfully, broke it down further requiring folks to master the content of the 5/10 man instances before they could tackle the 25 mans.
Since most raiding guilds have 1, or maybe 2 good raid leaders, this has resulted in one or two groups of people getting through Kara...while many others in the guild feel left out. This has caused huge fragementation in 3 major raiding guilds that I'm involved with...and destroyed much of what they built before the expansion
Second, the game was supposed to make things better for casual players. Maybe so... but once the casuals get to 70 they are going to find the same hateful end game raiding that they wanted to avoid in the first place. So no real improvement there.
Third - TBC greatly increased the level of faction grinding in the game, arguably one of the most hateful aspects of WOW (or any game for that matter). Toss in a bunch of arduous tasks to obtain keys and what not, and you've alienated many people from playing the game.
Fourth - TBC completely invalidated all the hard work the raiders put into the game in a single stroke. Unless you had cleared Naxx most of your gear was quickly replaces by trash greens and blues... and by 70 most of the old gear was gone.
Fifth - No new classes, and they gave each side the other's missing class... still a mistake in my book...
Sixth - BG Pvp was improved, but no real progress was made on larger world Pvp engagement, particularly on PvP servers....in fact, it went backwards and on most servers the horde and alliance cooperated during the initial leveling period....
I could add 3 or 4 more... but you get the point... sure TBC was successful in many areas, but for other people it did not succeed and those people are starting to leave....you'll see the effect of this before we too far into the fall...
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don’t know if I was fortunate or unfortunate that I was selected to play the Beta TBC, I played until I was 65 and ran many Instances. I let me account slip while playing the Beta and I never renewed it because I saw what the game had to offer and there was no way I was going to pay the price they were asking for the TBC. I hate to say the WoW is a carp game because I really liked play the 2.5 years that I did. I always see the post that say this game is going to kill WoW and I always think to my self that no WoW will kill WoW. I think people just will get bored with it and stop playing. I would like to thank Blizzard for opening the door to all the people that would never play MMO’s and making future game better for everyone, because people got a taste of how fun a MMO can be. The TBC could of gave me new life for the game but all it did for me is kill it.
It's also the fastest selling PC game expansion ever btw. And it has perhaps the highest critical review scores of any MMO expansion, ever. (Except here - of course - because it's not EVE)
So please, explain to me how this expansion a failure?
/taps foot. I'm waiting
No one can say TBC is an economic failure, and as to reviews, they are all written by people well before they reach the end game content. Much like WOW is great fun for everyone from levels 1-70, once you get to the end game you begin to see the "failures" the expansion brings. Most of the reviewers are just jumping on the bandwagon...if they really played the game for any length of time they'd reduce their scores substantially (IMO)
A quick listing.
First, pre-TBC raiding guilds were organized to complete 40 man content. This required from 50-60 dedicated raiders to manage effectively. TBC lowered the maximum to 25, but quite truthfully, broke it down further requiring folks to master the content of the 5/10 man instances before they could tackle the 25 mans.
Since most raiding guilds have 1, or maybe 2 good raid leaders, this has resulted in one or two groups of people getting through Kara...while many others in the guild feel left out. This has caused huge fragementation in 3 major raiding guilds that I'm involved with...and destroyed much of what they built before the expansion
Second, the game was supposed to make things better for casual players. Maybe so... but once the casuals get to 70 they are going to find the same hateful end game raiding that they wanted to avoid in the first place. So no real improvement there.
Third - TBC greatly increased the level of faction grinding in the game, arguably one of the most hateful aspects of WOW (or any game for that matter). Toss in a bunch of arduous tasks to obtain keys and what not, and you've alienated many people from playing the game.
Fourth - TBC completely invalidated all the hard work the raiders put into the game in a single stroke. Unless you had cleared Naxx most of your gear was quickly replaces by trash greens and blues... and by 70 most of the old gear was gone.
Fifth - No new classes, and they gave each side the other's missing class... still a mistake in my book...
Sixth - BG Pvp was improved, but no real progress was made on larger world Pvp engagement, particularly on PvP servers....in fact, it went backwards and on most servers the horde and alliance cooperated during the initial leveling period....
I could add 3 or 4 more... but you get the point... sure TBC was successful in many areas, but for other people it did not succeed and those people are starting to leave....you'll see the effect of this before we too far into the fall...
I'm not disagreement with what you said, generally. Indeed there are some aspects to BC that have caused dismay to certain people. Considering myself a vet of the MMO genre I'm quite confident in making the following assertion; people being unhappy with what expansions bring is the norm. There is absolutely nothing out of the ordinary when people complain about how their precious game world has changed. I am simply debating the argument that BC has failed. Of course it hasn't failed - the mere suggestion that it has is quite silly.
As for the quoted criticisms of the expansion; it's wise to put these things into context. The logic here is quite simple: how have other games handled their expansions? I'll give you two examples of games I know intimately - two of the most respected MMOs out there.
Take Everquest 1 - It's first expansion, Ruins of Kunark introduced one new race - the iksar. No new classes. One new continent. Increased level cap by 10. Class balance was screwed up so badly it took them years to get some classes on par with the 'holy trinity' of War/Cleric/Enchanter. On the plus side, Epic weapons required raids that used the entire gameworld - not just the new continent.
Everquest 2 - Desert of Flames. No new race. No new classes. Increased level cap by 10. While EQ2 tried hard not to trivialize the content that came before it - Tier 5 raiding was screwed for months after this expansion. It took them months to fix it.
In comparison to those debut expansions of other games, Burning Crusade can be considered to be at least as successful as they were. Indeed, by offering TWO new races, with new starting areas, and a new continent, along with all the new PvP options and content for veteran players. To call Burning Crusade a bad expansion is just wrong.
Bad expansion... compared to what?
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
I'm not disagreement with what you said, generally. Indeed there are some aspects to BC that have caused dismay to certain people. Considering myself a vet of the MMO genre I'm quite confident in making the following assertion; people being unhappy with what expansions bring is the norm. There is absolutely nothing out of the ordinary when people complain about how their precious game world has changed. I am simply debating the argument that BC has failed. Of course it hasn't failed - the mere suggestion that it has is quite silly.
As for the quoted criticisms of the expansion; it's wise to put these things into context. The logic here is quite simple: how have other games handled their expansions? I'll give you two examples of games I know intimately - two of the most respected MMOs out there.
Take Everquest 1 - It's first expansion, Ruins of Kunark introduced one new race - the iksar. No new classes. One new continent. Increased level cap by 10. Class balance was screwed up so badly it took them years to get some classes on par with the 'holy trinity' of War/Cleric/Enchanter. On the plus side, Epic weapons required raids that used the entire gameworld - not just the new continent.
Everquest 2 - Desert of Flames. No new race. No new classes. Increased level cap by 10. While EQ2 tried hard not to trivialize the content that came before it - Tier 5 raiding was screwed for months after this expansion. It took them months to fix it.
In comparison to those debut expansions of other games, Burning Crusade can be considered to be at least as successful as they were. Indeed, by offering TWO new races, with new starting areas, and a new continent, along with all the new PvP options and content for veteran players. To call Burning Crusade a bad expansion is just wrong.
Bad expansion... compared to what?
Many people consider Kunark the greatest expansion any MMO has ever seen, and it didn’t take 2 years to get out the door. BC isn’t even close.
DoF may be a closer comparison but it came out 10 months after EQ2 was released and it included some major changes to the underlying game mechanics that solved most of the class balance problems, paved the way for the introduction of PvP and allowed them to develop content more effectively. Oh yes, and even though it came out only 10 months after EQ2 was released there were already mini expansions released by the time it came out.
Also, DoF was not exactly well received so being “as good as DoF” isn’t exactly a good thing, though personally I think DoF is unfairly maligned. IMO it was the key expansion that allowed EQ2 to grow and improve by leaps and bounds in the time since it was released. EQ2 had some things that needed to be fixed and DoF fixed them and allowed the dev team to move on. WoW didn’t have these issues so it didn’t need an expansion like DoF.
As I said before BC would have been an ok expansion if it had been released within a year of the original game. Not great, but ok. It wasn’t released inside of a year and this allowed boredom to set in on the player base. This is a very big problem for any game, because the people that remain don’t want change and you can’t usually change enough to reinvigorate the people that left. If you release your first expansion 2 years in, it had better be very very good
Lots of folks thought that the expansion is very, very good. You guys that hate the expansion feel cheated because you stayed with the game, did nothing but grind your way to awesome gear, killing thousands in PvP, stuck with Blizzard through nerf after nerf and created badass guilds that were set to take out the biggest scariest dungeons in the game.
Unfortunately the expansion negated your gear, drastically altered your PvP and some of your guilds fell apart.
For me the expansion rocked. I stopped playing after getting two characters to 60. I did most of the quest and the game was getting stagnant. I was bored. So I moved on, beat other games, kicked ass on other mmorpgs and had fun for about a year. Then I heard the expansion was coming out and said "why not?".
Now I'm stomping through the Outlands with my 60s, raising newbie characters in Azeroth (always wanted to get my priest and ice mage going) and I am loving this game again. I'm getting gear that rocks, exploring new areas and having fun with my friends.
I don't want to give you the old "if you don't like it then get out" crap. But if some of you hate the game, which is suppose to provide you with a fun and amusing pasttime, then take a break. Maybe in a year you'll love it all over again. Or find a game you like better. Or cure cancer. Who knows.
I'm not disagreement with what you said, generally. Indeed there are some aspects to BC that have caused dismay to certain people. Considering myself a vet of the MMO genre I'm quite confident in making the following assertion; people being unhappy with what expansions bring is the norm. There is absolutely nothing out of the ordinary when people complain about how their precious game world has changed. I am simply debating the argument that BC has failed. Of course it hasn't failed - the mere suggestion that it has is quite silly.
As for the quoted criticisms of the expansion; it's wise to put these things into context. The logic here is quite simple: how have other games handled their expansions? I'll give you two examples of games I know intimately - two of the most respected MMOs out there.
Take Everquest 1 - It's first expansion, Ruins of Kunark introduced one new race - the iksar. No new classes. One new continent. Increased level cap by 10. Class balance was screwed up so badly it took them years to get some classes on par with the 'holy trinity' of War/Cleric/Enchanter. On the plus side, Epic weapons required raids that used the entire gameworld - not just the new continent.
Everquest 2 - Desert of Flames. No new race. No new classes. Increased level cap by 10. While EQ2 tried hard not to trivialize the content that came before it - Tier 5 raiding was screwed for months after this expansion. It took them months to fix it.
In comparison to those debut expansions of other games, Burning Crusade can be considered to be at least as successful as they were. Indeed, by offering TWO new races, with new starting areas, and a new continent, along with all the new PvP options and content for veteran players. To call Burning Crusade a bad expansion is just wrong.
Bad expansion... compared to what?
Many people consider Kunark the greatest expansion any MMO has ever seen, and it didn’t take 2 years to get out the door. BC isn’t even close.
DoF may be a closer comparison but it came out 10 months after EQ2 was released and it included some major changes to the underlying game mechanics that solved most of the class balance problems, paved the way for the introduction of PvP and allowed them to develop content more effectively. Oh yes, and even though it came out only 10 months after EQ2 was released there were already mini expansions released by the time it came out.
Also, DoF was not exactly well received so being “as good as DoF” isn’t exactly a good thing, though personally I think DoF is unfairly maligned. IMO it was the key expansion that allowed EQ2 to grow and improve by leaps and bounds in the time since it was released. EQ2 had some things that needed to be fixed and DoF fixed them and allowed the dev team to move on. WoW didn’t have these issues so it didn’t need an expansion like DoF.
As I said before BC would have been an ok expansion if it had been released within a year of the original game. Not great, but ok. It wasn’t released inside of a year and this allowed boredom to set in on the player base. This is a very big problem for any game, because the people that remain don’t want change and you can’t usually change enough to reinvigorate the people that left. If you release your first expansion 2 years in, it had better be very very good
I'm not sure where you get the impression that Kunark is regarded as the "greatest expansion any MMO has ever seen". Among EQ veterans, Velious is the clear favourite. And ask anyone who hasn't played EQ, and they won't of ever heard of Kunark. Perhaps you and your guild had a really good time during Kunark era, and that's why you think it's widely regarded as the best.
I personally think it's a good expansion, RoK introduced epic weapons, lots of dragons, and some great zones (Sebilis ftw). It's for this reason that I chose compare it to Burning Crusade. Both are debut expansions - both were successful, increased the number of subscribers for the game, offered new races, added 10 more levels, a new continent and extra bells and whistles. And both expansions created problems and imbalance, a lot of people were unhappy with the 50-60 level grind in EQ - especially with hell levels.
Blizzard were slow making the Burning Crusade, but that doesn't change what the expansion actually is.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
I had an inactive account when TBC came out. I listened to some of my coworkers and decided to purchase TBC and renew my account. I've had a lot of fun playing the new zones. I enjoy the new instances more than previous level 60 content. If WAR comes along and a couple of my friends play it and like it, I will most likely switch over to it. I've played WoW since beta (off and on, mostly on) and I've been ready for a new game.
I'm not sure where you get the impression that Kunark is regarded as the "greatest expansion any MMO has ever seen". Among EQ veterans, Velious is the clear favourite. And ask anyone who hasn't played EQ, and they won't of ever heard of Kunark. Perhaps you and your guild had a really good time during Kunark era, and that's why you think it's widely regarded as the best.
I personally think it's a good expansion, RoK introduced epic weapons, lots of dragons, and some great zones (Sebilis ftw). It's for this reason that I chose compare it to Burning Crusade. Both are debut expansions - both were successful, increased the number of subscribers for the game, offered new races, added 10 more levels, a new continent and extra bells and whistles. And both expansions created problems and imbalance, a lot of people were unhappy with the 50-60 level grind in EQ - especially with hell levels.
Blizzard were slow making the Burning Crusade, but that doesn't change what the expansion actually is.
I never said *I* thought it was the best and obviously the answer to that question will change depending on who you talk to. This why is said *many* people. Even those that prefer other expansions like Velious mostly regard Kunark highly.
TBC may have similar types of additions, but it most certainly is not creating the same types of feelings and one of the biggest reasons is the length of time it took to get it out the door. Blizzard maintained the status quo a bit to long for them to win back the people disillusioned with that status quo with the changes in TBC, but at the same time they managed to alienate the people who likes that status quo.
This is a danger in any MMO when you wait to long to change something. Even if the change is desperately needed, if you have waited to long your game will have attracted a player base that likes things the way they are. Changing at this point simply offends the people still playing, while not changing leads stagnation and eventual population declines as people get burned out and quite.
MMO developers need to walk a fine line between keeping the game fresh and changing to much to quickly, and Blizzard definitely missed the mark with TBC.
I think I get what you're saying. During the lengthy period that it took Blizzard to release the expansion people got use to the way the game was played. With few real changes up till BC people were simply not prepared for the huge change that BC brought. In short it disrupted the way people were playing the game at the time. Not quite as bad as the overhaul SWG suffered but something similar maybe?
I understand what you are saying but for a game to not offend people when changes are introduced is to basically not change at all. The whole game framework would have to be in place with unlimited leveling options. Or maybe even an actual finale; you beat the game and move on to the next.
I suppose it could have been handled differently. But the things that I would have changed someone is sure to object to. Instead of working on the Battlegrounds I would have rather seen level 60 to 70 sooner; maybe we'd have 70 to 80 in the Outlands instead. All the work on PvP in this game is a waste for my playstyle, I'm on a PvE server for a reason. But some of my friends live for PvP.
So in a nutshell BC screwed up the way some people learned to play the game. Blizzard possibly could have eased people into over time but were they just not to change the game at all? What could have been done differently?
.... And almost imediatly i say exactly waht the true purpose of this expansion was....To keep us subscribing. ...
What? I thought they just released games and expansions too be nice... all this time i've believed game companies had no interest in making profit... i'm so stupid...
Lots of folks thought that the expansion is very, very good. You guys that hate the expansion feel cheated because you stayed with the game, did nothing but grind your way to awesome gear, killing thousands in PvP, stuck with Blizzard through nerf after nerf and created badass guilds that were set to take out the biggest scariest dungeons in the game. Unfortunately the expansion negated your gear, drastically altered your PvP and some of your guilds fell apart. For me the expansion rocked. I stopped playing after getting two characters to 60. I did most of the quest and the game was getting stagnant. I was bored. So I moved on, beat other games, kicked ass on other mmorpgs and had fun for about a year. Then I heard the expansion was coming out and said "why not?". Now I'm stomping through the Outlands with my 60s, raising newbie characters in Azeroth (always wanted to get my priest and ice mage going) and I am loving this game again. I'm getting gear that rocks, exploring new areas and having fun with my friends. I don't want to give you the old "if you don't like it then get out" crap. But if some of you hate the game, which is suppose to provide you with a fun and amusing pasttime, then take a break. Maybe in a year you'll love it all over again. Or find a game you like better. Or cure cancer. Who knows.
I totally agree with your statement, but I took the time getting my character to the low 60's and her pet caught up with her, though I haven't been with the game since start. As a matter of fact, I was playing EQ II from its beta up till about 5 months ago and I have to say, just be thankful that Blizzard didn't make the kind of stupid changes SoE did with that game with EVERY expansion pack or stuff on the scale of the NGE in Star Wars Galaxies. If you really sit back and look how SoE changed EQ II and SWG, DRASTICALLY, in comparison, the expansion here in WoW is actually pretty darn good. I mean do you want Blizzard to go back and completely revamp the combat system, how combat stats work, how you choose your class and change the game into a cheap First Person Shooter making the game TOTALLY unfamiliar to you? If not, be thankful for what we have in WoW.
The sad thing it did it 2 months before TBC came out. By changing raid content that was build up for 2 years in one nigth giving no other option pretty much proves Blizzard doesn't give a flying f. about what they are doing.
Thats all thats needed to say.
In numbers - From scale 1 -10. TBC gets 2 for making it intresting for 2 months while ppl were lvling.
I quit one and a half month or so into the expansion. At first it was fun to level to 70, get some new abilities and try out some new dungeons. But pretty soon it became the same old grind only in some cheap ass power rangers sci-fi setting with more stupid dungeon keys, heroic instances (soooo boring) and factions.
Seems to me like the more casual players (the majority) are the ones that enjoy TBC, while those that play 5+ hours a day finished all the "fun" content pretty fast and were left with reputation grind and trash mobs on 45 min respawn as a huge time sink.
Azeroth felt Warcraft while the Outlands feels Power Rangers. I don't give a rats ass if all those demons, Draenei cyberpunks and two-handed axes that look like giant glowing frisbees all fit in the lore. They look terrible and it's not Warcraft anymore.
- No new classes: I'm sorry but if you take 2 years to make an expansion and still have the same amount of classes as release then there is a problem somewhere. There are like 20 classes i could come up with that would have made the game that much more interesting.
- Crafting: Crafting is still only a minor past time. Alchemy, enchanting, and jewelcrafting have their uses and can make you some money but the others are just outright horrible. Make the others worthwhile and profitable.
- Reputation grinding: Need I say more.
There are other things but i'm limited in my time.
In short I feel that we didn't get enough out of the expansion to warrent the amount of time spent in production. The classes are too much alike, very few class choices and being cornholed into playing a certain role just is horrible in my opinion. The tank issues before. Should warriors be better tanks than druids? Yes. But I feel that druids should be suitable tanks as well. Make a couple of classes able to do the same jobs but make one class superior. This reduces the time of looking for certain class.
Also I play EQ2 and I must say it is tons better now than WoW. The class/race combos are good and you can be unique. If you could do that in WoW i would be back in a heartbeat.
Comments
Azeroth dead? What server are you on? I've got two active toons on a PVP and an RP server and all the mid-level zones are as lively as ever. In fact they seem busier there now then they were 6 months ago tbh. Origimmar was packed to the brim with people last night.
Of course the 60+ players are in Outland. But why wouldn't we be? There's a new expansion out!
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
If they had a classic server id probably play there and level up to 60 again, just the Outland zones dont excite me very much! My opinion could change when i get to 70 but i cant tell yet as i am a very slow leveller!
I played AC.... they came out with tinkering and they totally made all the old gear (GSA) obsolete, but at least we were all getting exp the whole time and progressing our characters. In WOW I remember hitting level 60 after one month.... then two years later they completely destroyed EVERYTHING I had done in the 23 months between hitting 60 and the expansion. LAAAAAAAAME.
I am intrigued to find out what you expected from an expansion to WoW. From what I read you seemed to have had some sort of expectations. Did you start the game with expectations that there wouldn't be more grinding? What were you expecting instead? The whole 'risk vs reward' system will always be alive in WoW. That system keeps players who don't play much from accessing content/gear that hardcore gamers can access.
One feature that 'The Burning Crusade' offers is that the gap between raider and casual has gotten smaller. Gear that makes your abilities dazzle is much easier to come by.
From what I've read you seem to have also assumed that level 60 gear was going to remain viable much longer than it did. What experiences in the past led you to believe this? Every expansion I've been a part of has made most gear previous to the expansion look cruddy. If your 60 gear was great from 60 - 70 you would get bored. The grinds and gear rewards via questing are really great. Much greater than any quest pre-60.
WoW will always be about grinding/instancing.
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
The expansion is no different then the game itself. Boring expansion: Boring game.
Like they say, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
BC is a failure, just that many don't know it yet.
It is a failure, because they set the bar too high for the new end game content while making all the old end game content obsolete.
The reputation grind and skill requirements will prevent the vast majority from ever experiencing most of the end game content.
Really a shame that SOE launched EQ2 prematurely as they do with every game, as it is not bad now. It should be a decent Wow competitor. The have definitely added a lot more content than Blizzard has.
Thank god it obseleted that content, I never want to do any of those instances ever again. And I hope the next expansion obseletes BC.
Sure, it might be a failure to people who never saw that content. But you had plenty of time. And this is an MMO, there is always a level of content available to only the most dedicated players. Fortunately, there is a metric crapton of content for Timmy McCasual and his elderly chums.
Failure, my foot!
It's also the fastest selling PC game expansion ever btw. And it has perhaps the highest critical review scores of any MMO expansion, ever. (Except here - of course - because it's not EVE)
So please, explain to me how this expansion a failure?
/taps foot. I'm waiting
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
I think you hit the nail on the head by saying that when you go back to Azeroth, you feel like you're at home. I, too, never felt comfortable in any of the BC zones, none. WoW "did" have the best game before TBC, now it's dust in the wind.....(sing along....)
You think Outland is supposed to feel homely... when you consider what Outland actually is?
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
A quick listing.
First, pre-TBC raiding guilds were organized to complete 40 man content. This required from 50-60 dedicated raiders to manage effectively. TBC lowered the maximum to 25, but quite truthfully, broke it down further requiring folks to master the content of the 5/10 man instances before they could tackle the 25 mans.
Since most raiding guilds have 1, or maybe 2 good raid leaders, this has resulted in one or two groups of people getting through Kara...while many others in the guild feel left out. This has caused huge fragementation in 3 major raiding guilds that I'm involved with...and destroyed much of what they built before the expansion
Second, the game was supposed to make things better for casual players. Maybe so... but once the casuals get to 70 they are going to find the same hateful end game raiding that they wanted to avoid in the first place. So no real improvement there.
Third - TBC greatly increased the level of faction grinding in the game, arguably one of the most hateful aspects of WOW (or any game for that matter). Toss in a bunch of arduous tasks to obtain keys and what not, and you've alienated many people from playing the game.
Fourth - TBC completely invalidated all the hard work the raiders put into the game in a single stroke. Unless you had cleared Naxx most of your gear was quickly replaces by trash greens and blues... and by 70 most of the old gear was gone.
Fifth - No new classes, and they gave each side the other's missing class... still a mistake in my book...
Sixth - BG Pvp was improved, but no real progress was made on larger world Pvp engagement, particularly on PvP servers....in fact, it went backwards and on most servers the horde and alliance cooperated during the initial leveling period....
I could add 3 or 4 more... but you get the point... sure TBC was successful in many areas, but for other people it did not succeed and those people are starting to leave....you'll see the effect of this before we too far into the fall...
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don’t know if I was fortunate or unfortunate that I was selected to play the Beta TBC, I played until I was 65 and ran many Instances. I let me account slip while playing the Beta and I never renewed it because I saw what the game had to offer and there was no way I was going to pay the price they were asking for the TBC. I hate to say the WoW is a carp game because I really liked play the 2.5 years that I did. I always see the post that say this game is going to kill WoW and I always think to my self that no WoW will kill WoW. I think people just will get bored with it and stop playing. I would like to thank Blizzard for opening the door to all the people that would never play MMO’s and making future game better for everyone, because people got a taste of how fun a MMO can be. The TBC could of gave me new life for the game but all it did for me is kill it.
!!Jedi are Puppets!!
UO-EQ1-SWG-DAOC-WOW-EQ2-WAR-GW2-RIFT
A quick listing.
First, pre-TBC raiding guilds were organized to complete 40 man content. This required from 50-60 dedicated raiders to manage effectively. TBC lowered the maximum to 25, but quite truthfully, broke it down further requiring folks to master the content of the 5/10 man instances before they could tackle the 25 mans.
Since most raiding guilds have 1, or maybe 2 good raid leaders, this has resulted in one or two groups of people getting through Kara...while many others in the guild feel left out. This has caused huge fragementation in 3 major raiding guilds that I'm involved with...and destroyed much of what they built before the expansion
Second, the game was supposed to make things better for casual players. Maybe so... but once the casuals get to 70 they are going to find the same hateful end game raiding that they wanted to avoid in the first place. So no real improvement there.
Third - TBC greatly increased the level of faction grinding in the game, arguably one of the most hateful aspects of WOW (or any game for that matter). Toss in a bunch of arduous tasks to obtain keys and what not, and you've alienated many people from playing the game.
Fourth - TBC completely invalidated all the hard work the raiders put into the game in a single stroke. Unless you had cleared Naxx most of your gear was quickly replaces by trash greens and blues... and by 70 most of the old gear was gone.
Fifth - No new classes, and they gave each side the other's missing class... still a mistake in my book...
Sixth - BG Pvp was improved, but no real progress was made on larger world Pvp engagement, particularly on PvP servers....in fact, it went backwards and on most servers the horde and alliance cooperated during the initial leveling period....
I could add 3 or 4 more... but you get the point... sure TBC was successful in many areas, but for other people it did not succeed and those people are starting to leave....you'll see the effect of this before we too far into the fall...
I'm not disagreement with what you said, generally. Indeed there are some aspects to BC that have caused dismay to certain people. Considering myself a vet of the MMO genre I'm quite confident in making the following assertion; people being unhappy with what expansions bring is the norm. There is absolutely nothing out of the ordinary when people complain about how their precious game world has changed. I am simply debating the argument that BC has failed. Of course it hasn't failed - the mere suggestion that it has is quite silly.
As for the quoted criticisms of the expansion; it's wise to put these things into context. The logic here is quite simple: how have other games handled their expansions? I'll give you two examples of games I know intimately - two of the most respected MMOs out there.
Take Everquest 1 - It's first expansion, Ruins of Kunark introduced one new race - the iksar. No new classes. One new continent. Increased level cap by 10. Class balance was screwed up so badly it took them years to get some classes on par with the 'holy trinity' of War/Cleric/Enchanter. On the plus side, Epic weapons required raids that used the entire gameworld - not just the new continent.
Everquest 2 - Desert of Flames. No new race. No new classes. Increased level cap by 10. While EQ2 tried hard not to trivialize the content that came before it - Tier 5 raiding was screwed for months after this expansion. It took them months to fix it.
In comparison to those debut expansions of other games, Burning Crusade can be considered to be at least as successful as they were. Indeed, by offering TWO new races, with new starting areas, and a new continent, along with all the new PvP options and content for veteran players. To call Burning Crusade a bad expansion is just wrong.
Bad expansion... compared to what?
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
Lots of folks thought that the expansion is very, very good. You guys that hate the expansion feel cheated because you stayed with the game, did nothing but grind your way to awesome gear, killing thousands in PvP, stuck with Blizzard through nerf after nerf and created badass guilds that were set to take out the biggest scariest dungeons in the game.
Unfortunately the expansion negated your gear, drastically altered your PvP and some of your guilds fell apart.
For me the expansion rocked. I stopped playing after getting two characters to 60. I did most of the quest and the game was getting stagnant. I was bored. So I moved on, beat other games, kicked ass on other mmorpgs and had fun for about a year. Then I heard the expansion was coming out and said "why not?".
Now I'm stomping through the Outlands with my 60s, raising newbie characters in Azeroth (always wanted to get my priest and ice mage going) and I am loving this game again. I'm getting gear that rocks, exploring new areas and having fun with my friends.
I don't want to give you the old "if you don't like it then get out" crap. But if some of you hate the game, which is suppose to provide you with a fun and amusing pasttime, then take a break. Maybe in a year you'll love it all over again. Or find a game you like better. Or cure cancer. Who knows.
I'm not sure where you get the impression that Kunark is regarded as the "greatest expansion any MMO has ever seen". Among EQ veterans, Velious is the clear favourite. And ask anyone who hasn't played EQ, and they won't of ever heard of Kunark. Perhaps you and your guild had a really good time during Kunark era, and that's why you think it's widely regarded as the best.
I personally think it's a good expansion, RoK introduced epic weapons, lots of dragons, and some great zones (Sebilis ftw). It's for this reason that I chose compare it to Burning Crusade. Both are debut expansions - both were successful, increased the number of subscribers for the game, offered new races, added 10 more levels, a new continent and extra bells and whistles. And both expansions created problems and imbalance, a lot of people were unhappy with the 50-60 level grind in EQ - especially with hell levels.
Blizzard were slow making the Burning Crusade, but that doesn't change what the expansion actually is.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
I had an inactive account when TBC came out. I listened to some of my coworkers and decided to purchase TBC and renew my account. I've had a lot of fun playing the new zones. I enjoy the new instances more than previous level 60 content. If WAR comes along and a couple of my friends play it and like it, I will most likely switch over to it. I've played WoW since beta (off and on, mostly on) and I've been ready for a new game.
Main: PvP 70 Paladin (Holy) - Alliance
so...
I think I get what you're saying. During the lengthy period that it took Blizzard to release the expansion people got use to the way the game was played. With few real changes up till BC people were simply not prepared for the huge change that BC brought. In short it disrupted the way people were playing the game at the time. Not quite as bad as the overhaul SWG suffered but something similar maybe?
I understand what you are saying but for a game to not offend people when changes are introduced is to basically not change at all. The whole game framework would have to be in place with unlimited leveling options. Or maybe even an actual finale; you beat the game and move on to the next.
I suppose it could have been handled differently. But the things that I would have changed someone is sure to object to. Instead of working on the Battlegrounds I would have rather seen level 60 to 70 sooner; maybe we'd have 70 to 80 in the Outlands instead. All the work on PvP in this game is a waste for my playstyle, I'm on a PvE server for a reason. But some of my friends live for PvP.
So in a nutshell BC screwed up the way some people learned to play the game. Blizzard possibly could have eased people into over time but were they just not to change the game at all? What could have been done differently?
TBC destroyed everyting that was good about WoW
The sad thing it did it 2 months before TBC came out. By changing raid content that was build up for 2 years in one nigth giving no other option pretty much proves Blizzard doesn't give a flying f. about what they are doing.
Thats all thats needed to say.
In numbers - From scale 1 -10. TBC gets 2 for making it intresting for 2 months while ppl were lvling.
Seems to me like the more casual players (the majority) are the ones that enjoy TBC, while those that play 5+ hours a day finished all the "fun" content pretty fast and were left with reputation grind and trash mobs on 45 min respawn as a huge time sink.
Azeroth felt Warcraft while the Outlands feels Power Rangers. I don't give a rats ass if all those demons, Draenei cyberpunks and two-handed axes that look like giant glowing frisbees all fit in the lore. They look terrible and it's not Warcraft anymore.
IMO there were a lot of problems with BC.
- No new classes: I'm sorry but if you take 2 years to make an expansion and still have the same amount of classes as release then there is a problem somewhere. There are like 20 classes i could come up with that would have made the game that much more interesting.
- Crafting: Crafting is still only a minor past time. Alchemy, enchanting, and jewelcrafting have their uses and can make you some money but the others are just outright horrible. Make the others worthwhile and profitable.
- Reputation grinding: Need I say more.
There are other things but i'm limited in my time.
In short I feel that we didn't get enough out of the expansion to warrent the amount of time spent in production. The classes are too much alike, very few class choices and being cornholed into playing a certain role just is horrible in my opinion. The tank issues before. Should warriors be better tanks than druids? Yes. But I feel that druids should be suitable tanks as well. Make a couple of classes able to do the same jobs but make one class superior. This reduces the time of looking for certain class.
Also I play EQ2 and I must say it is tons better now than WoW. The class/race combos are good and you can be unique. If you could do that in WoW i would be back in a heartbeat.