I actually think another poster said it best when he was refering to the loss of that magic fuzzy feeling we had back in UO. Alot of mmo's today are being designed with game mechanics first and a story slapped on second. The games where the company really planned out the world, the hero's, villians and plots are self evidant to us when we play them. No one can deny the feeling of cohesion when they played Oblivion and really felt like all the flavor was there when they learned about Tamriel. UO players recall the extensive lore behind Britannia, or the extensive story behind Asherons Call. In the beginning some companies approached a MMO like they would a game of D&D. They'd come up with the setting, plot, characters and locations, and then improvise the game as the players wandered through their predesigned settings. The best campaigns felt cohesive and had plots which related to one another in the grander scheme.
Even World of Warcraft has a good world feeling and lore because the zones and characters pre-existed from the story developed in the previous 3 RTS titles. It's not like Metzen came up with it overnight, he and other designers brainstormed alot of story and setting before the mechanics of the game were ever in. Rather then adding nameless badguy in dark tower_03 for the 20-30 levels to kill for loot, they added a character from the games or stories to challange, It felt much more meaningful then just another named boss in a dungeon.
You guys make it sound like stagnation is exclusive to MMOs, when in truth every other genre and gaming as a whole is boring and uninteresting, it has been that way for years, and I can't see any good or interesting games coming out in the forseeable next two years, so don't feel bad. There are probably people on a FPS board somewhere complaining about what is going wrong in the FPS world, if you think MMOs are bad just look at how many WW2 shooters there are.
Well, actually this is not completely true - both the RTS and FPS genres are seeing a lot of cool innovation. Just look at games like Supreme Commander or the upcoming Crysis that are revolutionizing what gamers expect in terms of scale, playability, cutting-edge graphics, etc. Then there are innovative games like Bioshock or Spore that promise to offer both excellent graphics and completely new gaming experiences. Even turn-based gaming fans have ultra-cool titles to choose from such as Medieval 2 Total War.
So no, I don't think the PC gaming industry is in a rut - although the MMOG genre certainly is.
The problem is common in the entertainment industry. The mentality is ......lets play it safe to maximize the potential to at least get our investment back.You see it a LOT in films. The result is minimal originality, and a lot of sequals. In MMOGS...WOW and LOTR are classic ,play it safe games that reflect that thinking.
The problem is common in the entertainment industry. The mentality is ......lets play it safe to maximize the potential to at least get our investment back.You see it a LOT in films. The result is minimal originality, and a lot of sequals. In MMOGS...WOW and LOTR are classic ,play it safe games that reflect that thinking.
The issue is, that playing it safe is usually the way for success. Take a look at the big films coming this year, Spiderman 3/Pirates of the Carribean 3/ Harry Potter etc etc, all sequels based on already successful films. Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles, and Transformers, based on existing franchises.
When the costs of producing a quality product are so high, people with the money, the investors will play it safe. Look at Vanguard, $30m spent, Sigil ran out of money and a not very good unfinished game at the end of it.
In fact, the computer games industry is even worse than the film industry. At least low budget films can get made, and can be amazingly successful. Films like Blair Witch Project, or Reservior Dogs, with a tiny budget, but can have a huge impact and a huge sucess.
However to make a good quality computer game, or at least a comparable computer game, then theres not much difference in cost, so people will naturally go for the ones which make more cash.
What is needed, is not indie developers, but a change in attitude in the big companies. Ones like Blizzard, SOE and EA to be funding new ideas, like film studios do for lower budget films. It'll take time, and companies need to treat the industry more like an entertainment industry than a money-making one.
Hell, maybe we need our equivalent of the oscars...
They suck to put it bluntly. They do nothing but bring rifts betweem people.
Example: I play only 2 hours a week, good friend plays 4 hours. He advances closely twice as fast as I do. Therefore, when I am level 10 he is level 20. I can no longer group with my friend and now am forced to seek refuge with strangers.
I never had to worry about this ever in any skill based game. UO for example, anytime I logged in I could go anywhere and everywhere regardless of worrying about levels. Me and my friend would be able to journey to any dungeon or forest, no questions asked. I may have needed more healing time than him, but there never was a need to completely negate my existance because of a level.
The other thing that level based games do is they strip you of the MMO part. Wild as it may seem, I believe in a MMO I should be able to interact with the community as a whole. Its MASSIVE, its MULTIPLAYING, those two words to me seem as if it would enclude the whole on a particular server. If I am unable to interact and play the game with a LVL 60 player when I am LVL 10, that limits the MASSIVE, that limits the populous I am able to interact with. Level based MMO's ruin the whole concept of MMO based on how it classifes and seperates the masses.
Yeah, i have to agree with all of this topics opinions and yes, the situation is worser then ever. But we shouldn't forgot why we have to write about this thing? About the actual mmo's?
In the beginning there were some good projects that tried to stand close to the "rpg" part of the genre as much as possible. UO, AO and such. Then came WoW with its simplicity and "pick-it-up-and-play-it" style. Its true, everyone could play with it, independent from age and IQ. That was the mistake that ruined this genre. WoW killed out the RPG part. I explain:
RPG's arent made for everyone. It happens that someone dont have even a little clue of imagination or he or she dont likes to think at all. Thogh they can play FPS or Adventure games where thinking and using your imagination is not the #1 thing that you have to do. Thats why the original pen n paper roleplaying games werent so famous. Blizzard made its game and it dared to call it RPG (becouse the fans and the frenchise and offcourse for the profit).
Becouse of this, everyone picked up the game and becouse most of us, humans dont have the imagination, the company suited its game to the general needs. People wanted action. They got action in the form of the eternal grind and pvp. People wanted quests so they can show up something if someone wanted to know why does he or she sit at the computer and doing the same things over and over again. "Does that monster hurted you? -No but i have a quest that tells me i have to kill these! - Oh thats great!" They got quests, though they were envolved in delivery, killing, and bring items back style, but that done it. The short-brained public forgot to act like the game deserves it. They wanted only action and prosperful experiences if they played. The community crashed, they only used the chatbox if they wanted buffs/heals or at trades or when they wanted spam swears over another player when he stole his kill by an accident or directly. Independant from these the game was a total succes and made a huge profit. And what the company wants? money. What the other company wants? same. Other companies made cheap raplicas from wow, not becouse they liked it, just becouse they wanted money too. And nowadays we play these cheap trashes that they made, regardles of different name, different logo, different company, different game. (Respect for the exceptions). The shame is that we realized this too late.
It can happen that i had wrote something wrong and made some mistakes, thats just my point of view, feel free to bash or flame.
As MMOs are becoming more plentiful than ever and sales are up into record territory it is a bit arrogant to say things are 'wrong'. I do find them to unoriginal and to 'dumbed down' for my tastes but that is probably a reasonable function of not only their growing complexity and cost but their increasing popularity as well.
Since your on the topic of lack of "freedom", that gave me an idea. An mmorpg where you can be a colony rebeling against a ruling nation to gain freedom, or the nation ruling the colony. In my opinion, mmorpgs are going wrong because they're all staying the same. I really think a game like this (if made properly) would shake things up a bit. I think many people would join it and feel like they're needed (which always gives people a get up 'n go attitude), even though it's just an online game.
Just thought i'd open a can of worms (ooh yummy). Well Ive played MMORPGS since the start, and before that roleplaying games since the late 70s and computer games since 1980 (sinclaire zx-80). I loved mmorpgs - everquest was amazing, ultima online just proved i want cut out to be a PvP person. Since then ive played almost every game, and have been lucky enough to beta test a lot of them. So how come i now dont have the 'get up and go' to play anything? Sure EVE was my last game and if i had the finances i would probably still be playing it - but that isnt the reason I quit them all - and a game is only a game - its longevity is limited, only so many times you can do the same thing over, so a game has to evolve. So what is the next big game? or the next different game? Vanguard was promising to be so different.... yet couldnt deliver. Reminds me so much of Horizons - a truly great game that just didnt have the backing it needed. Who is developing a game that is going to truly evolve?
I think the real question is, how old were you when UO and Everquest came out? Do you now have a gf/wife, maybe some kids? Have you gone farther into your job, meaning more time at work with more responsibility? These questions arn't just for you but the whole gaming communtiy. How much time do we really have nowadays to play the games we once loved? My cousin and I used to duo all the time in MMO's and have a blast doing it. The harder it was to level the better but now those days are gone. He has 2 kids and a wife who has a foot up his ass all day long so he rarely plays anymore. I now have 3 kids and alot less time for these games. The games we now look for need to be enjoyable and not so much of a grind. More on the way of, can you get in the game and play for an hour and feel like we had fun. Gone are the 5-8 hour gaming sessions.
I don't even know what I am talking about here. Maybe I posted in the wrong thread.
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
Since your on the topic of lack of "freedom", that gave me an idea. An mmorpg where you can be a colony rebeling against a ruling nation to gain freedom, or the nation ruling the colony. In my opinion, mmorpgs are going wrong because they're all staying the same. I really think a game like this (if made properly) would shake things up a bit. I think many people would join it and feel like they're needed (which always gives people a get up 'n go attitude), even though it's just an online game.
Well, besides bad management, companies not wanting to take risks, and a lack of originality, MMORPGs no longer immerse you in the game world. The games are now about crunching numbers and leveling. Forget about community and PVP or RVR or what ever versus whatever. The games are designed to get the uber loot so you can hack up bigger monsters or players. This is where I think that the industry is in a rut. Grinding, no matter how much you tweak it or change it is still grinding. New innovations in player activities are sorely needed to invigorate the next generation of games.This is of course my opinion and reflects my paper and pencil RPG background.
Very true, but also number crunching, level focusing, grinding and stat watching is all the players fault. It is all where the focus is. Most people of the younger generation play the games this way. Even if you made a game that really tried to get you to FOCUS on story, community and other "In game " elements, you still will have the ones that are in a hurry and don't give a rats ass about story, community, Role play and etc and only want to compete to race to the so called "End game". If you take away the "end game", leveling, grinding, FFA PvP, you take away what most MMO fans call a game.
What is REALLY funny is them same people gripe and whine about the same things that they want in the game. So, no matter what they will continue to make negative remarks of what is bad and good. Why? Because they were taught that if you find things wrong then you are knowledgeable of what should and shouldn't be in a game. If you don't complain then you are a newb that doesn't know what its good or bad. Where did they learn this? From listening to us about all the problems from our previous games.
They complain about how a game has too much grind. So the devs make a game will less grind. Then they complain that they don't get enough experience from killing and that the exp is based too much on the DUMB questing. Shees even WoW made it so the quest text appears instantly for the people that don't want to read the quest info. That is just a very mild sample of what is going on.
End thing is as long as we keep thinging we know what should be in a game and demanding it, they will continiue to listen to us so called "Game Masters" and continue to make games based on what the masses say, since obviously it it the masses that will bring in the most money.
Until the masses start saying they want True originality, More diverse story archs and multiple paths, more of a thinkers game than a twitch combat that is a reflection of a diverse FPS game. Otherwise they will keep sending us things we all keep complaning about.
Honestly I think the MMO dev community is very confused from the player community, why? because of stuff like this:
Zones suck...They give us seemless lands. Then people complain that it takes too long to get from one place to another.
Game has too much grind, so they put in more story and things to do other than just killing. Then people complain that the game is too tedious and you spend too much time running around doing things other than killing.
Leveling takes too long and it has lost the sense of accomplishement, so they make leveling faster and everyone complains that the "end game doesn't have enough stuff to do".
Crafting is too useless and serves no purpose. So they make items, weapons and armor crafting create more rare things that you can't find in the land. Then everyone complains that they can't get what someone else has and it cost too much...
I could go on and on and on and on of what I see Millions and millions of players constantly complaining and then contradicing themselves.
You know what I think in the end? I think no one really knows what they really want AND they have no sense of gratification or what it means to earn something. They think if it isn't handed to them it is called "WORK". If they have to ADVENTURE, EXPLORE or TRAVEL a bit of distance without instant portaling or recalling there they call it "A TIME SINK", if they have to kill monsters more than a few times they call it "GRINDING". If they have to collect things they call it "Fed EX questing" Which I prefer to call it a TASK. IF the game involves reading anything more than a sentence it is an "INCONVENIENCE" and BORING. For these sort of players, I call lazy minded, dull and boring that can only be mentally stimulated from single cell nerve responses.The devs need to create a game ROOM and put these types of player in it and give them everything they want and tell them they are GREAT, SMART, TALENTED, THE ALL MIGHTY GOD OF HEROES AND NO ONE CAN TOUCH THEM. Then tell them again, but using a Thesaurus so they don't think it is a grind.
I really think it is time to separate the genres up in the MMO community. Why, because all the developers know is that they want to make a MMO and make money on a monthly basis. They need to now start focusing on if they want to make a MMO"Role Playing Game", MMO "First Person Shooter", MMO Real Time Strategy", MMO Hack-n-Slash" or the many hybrid types. So far all they are doing is catering to the masses and the masses out here are making demands based on what they like and what they like are from elements from their favorite games. Which can be from FPS, RPG, RTS, HnS and all the other stuff out there that people like. So far the devs are listening to the WHOLE GAMING COMMUNITY on what should be made. So what do we see right now coming out? A Liozebraffkey Instead of a Lion, Zebra, Giraff and a Monkey. WoW is a perfect example of this, plus more games to come as well.
MMO can be a correct analogy for all since they are all Massive, Multiplayer and of course Online.
But they need to stop labeling all the others as RPG.
A lot of titles need to be brought over to the RTS and FPS genre and doesn't belong in the RPG genre.
Even WoW, but eventhough Diablo is also a RPG I think they need to be relabeled as HnS rather than RPG. A lot of the PvP, grind love, non-story arch l337 n3wb whatever stuff need to be relabeled as HnS. Or if they refuse then we need to take the good RPG titles and then just relabel them as CRGP or HFRPG so to differentiate from the mindless Hack n Slash type RPG titles or other Mock up MMORPG games.
Well, anyway. I would carry on, but I really think this topic needs to be in a chat room so there is feedback and the discussion can go in a good direction. This difinitely needs to be a topic of discussion and things need to change, because so far MMORPG.com is a home for ALL MMO's and it is like mixing all RPG, RTS, FPS and all the other genres into one room and expecting us to get along.
you hear that MMORPG.com? Maybe this is an opportunity to expand and diversify to dominate the MMO market advertisement!
Your post, Rudnoc, is a good example of why I am a firm believer in someone who has a vision (and the means of course) developing a game the way they want and hope that it's popular enough to win fans over. A lot of people say build a game based on tons of feedback from gamers so you know you will make what they want. But that's exactly the problem, most gamers don't know what they want. Or more appropriately, they don't realize what they want. What they think they want in a game turns out to bore them quickly. Most people say they hate the grind. But what do they do when they play - they go out and grind and try to be the first one to the finish line.
That's why devs need to come up with their own formula of what they think works and get the gamers to come around to their way of thinking. Look at Everquest. They were the first (or amongst the first) to build an MMORPG. They were breaking new ground. They had no idea what the players would like and what they wouldn't. So they made it the way they thought it would work. And it did. But MMOs need to grow and evolve and advance, and they just don't seem to be doing that. And it's for exactly the reasons that you stated. Companies with the money aren't going to take the risks to invest in new ideas so long as the same old ideas make money. The old crap is going to have to become unprofitable before they stop doing the same thing over and over.
I was mainly a Counter Striker/Homeworld player at the start of my online gaming experience. I vowed to never pay a monthly fee for a computer game. (yeah right).
I did though and started EVE online as the game launched, I played this for a long old time before running in boredom, a quick stint in City of Hero's (boring real quick) then lead to my long addiction to WoW. I was a GM in WoW for a couple of years until BC hit and killed my guild and in the same moment killed the game for me as well. I realized that running the guild was more fun (till the end) than the game itself. Now i can't seem to find anything i really do want to play, things get boring so fast
Endless farming/grinding makes me a very dull boy
For the time and effort you have to invest in these games there just ain't enough reward. (i.e. FUN!)
As previously stated, companies run the gaming industry and until enough of us get bored and stop paying them, games won't improve.
I love gaming and have been a gamer for 20+ years but find myself with a super beefed up machine and nothing to really play on it.
Tabula Rasa is the game that i hope to save me from my gamer oblivion, that or i start playing football again (i don't thing my legs will approve).
Your post, Rudnoc, is a good example of why I am a firm believer in someone who has a vision (and the means of course) developing a game the way they want and hope that it's popular enough to win fans over. A lot of people say build a game based on tons of feedback from gamers so you know you will make what they want. But that's exactly the problem, most gamers don't know what they want. Or more appropriately, they don't realize what they want. What they think they want in a game turns out to bore them quickly. Most people say they hate the grind. But what do they do when they play - they go out and grind and try to be the first one to the finish line. That's why devs need to come up with their own formula of what they think works and get the gamers to come around to their way of thinking. Look at Everquest. They were the first (or amongst the first) to build an MMORPG. They were breaking new ground. They had no idea what the players would like and what they wouldn't. So they made it the way they thought it would work. And it did. But MMOs need to grow and evolve and advance, and they just don't seem to be doing that. And it's for exactly the reasons that you stated. Companies with the money aren't going to take the risks to invest in new ideas so long as the same old ideas make money. The old crap is going to have to become unprofitable before they stop doing the same thing over and over.
So true! Infact that is why a lot of us are standing around waiting and wondering why our original love hasn't been replaced yet. As more Veterans of the MMO communities are still waiting for a reasonable game to replace their old love they had for UO, EQ or like me AC. Now I know some of you may think, "sorry but that feeling is the feeling of a first love". Well as I see it, no it isn't and it can be refelt by something better I call the next step.
Think of it this way, Doom was my first original FPS love. It was replaced by Quake, then replaced by Quake2, then Half-Life, then BF 1942, then BF2 and now I very much anticipate Enemy Territories: Quake Wars and OVERLY excited for the calling of CRYSIS. What the feeling we are looking for is that Wow, Ahhhh, Ohhhh, Ewwww and Woohoo!! Oh yeah Baby, and GOTCHA . Mohahahaha feeling. Some found it with WoW, some found it with EQ2 some of us are just still waiting and saying Ehhh, not yet. Will War do it? Will AoC do it. Well maybe for some, but not all. Originally I thought LOTRO was going to do it for me. But I think that was just more wishful thinking since Turbine made my first love of the MMO gaming. However, I am keeping a eye on VG to see if it takes a 180 degree turn, but have more high hopes on Heros Journey. I use to be a big MUD player with Gemstone, so maybe Simu will capture my desires again.
However, giving it much thought is if Richard Garriott got off his butt and just took a deep breath and put all his heart back into UWO/UO2/UXO I bet he would bring a LOT of us HARDCORE CRPG fanbase the Ahhhhhhh's for a while to come.
Developers need to really trust in their own vision and stop relying on polls and feedbacks from the gaming community. AC2 is a perfect example of polls/feedback game building and look where it got them. That is one thing that is so ironic is that a game is based on what the Majority wanted, but when it came down to deliver that product everyone was disgusted. The problem is not that it came from the pubilc, it is that it came from "all" of the public Polls and feedbacks.
Imagine making a sauce for a steak marinate and you ask everyone that even new what was good, but the thing is you use everything what they all listed. In the end you got a mess. 5 different peppers, 4 different garlic types, 3 different onions, 6 different wines and the steak gets marinated multiple times. I think by then the steak is not only well marinated, but well sauced and already cooked from the juices alone. What do you do with that steak? Throw it away. It is no good now.
I had my short lived fun in DAoC, SB, AO, EQ2, WoW, LOTRO BEtA (LMAO --->>> yes BETA) , and lots of other MMO's including VG to lvl 10 too many times. It has the elements but lacking in a LOT which I believe in the right hands it can become a masterpiece...NO LIES, Honest! However, the fun and long livity of my days in AC has not yet been replaced. But one day it will be, by whom? I don't know. I just hope it is soon. Well atleast I got my Gothic3, TESIV, NwN2 (Pffff) to keep me busy till Richard gets off his ass and puts the project back up.
i completely agree i belive that all our hearts were so into the rise of vanguard and with the total upset of the release and all the bugs i belive with the right people Vanguard will rule over any mmo out there but i think the devs have fallen asleep behind the wheel and wont admit that maybe they are in over there heads or for what ever reason. right now i ponder do i play a console game or go back to Eq, Eq2,WoW,Vanguard,LOTRO,CoH, god i have played them all i just want something to bid my time until something awesome comes out or something improves if you have any ideas of something i havent played i would love a suggestion
i completely agree i belive that all our hearts were so into the rise of vanguard and with the total upset of the release and all the bugs i belive with the right people Vanguard will rule over any mmo out there but i think the devs have fallen asleep behind the wheel and wont admit that maybe they are in over there heads or for what ever reason. right now i ponder do i play a console game or go back to Eq, Eq2,WoW,Vanguard,LOTRO,CoH, god i have played them all i just want something to bid my time until something awesome comes out or something improves if you have any ideas of something i havent played i would love a suggestion
Many Men Online Roleplaying Girls hahahaha
Well, I can suggest LOTRO. It has about a 2 month play cycle before you get tired of it. Then once they introduce Rohan and other areas I am sure it will be added pleasure. However, the game just feels too much like a single player game in a multiplayer world. It has some freedom to your adventuring, but yet at the same time it feels linear and guided. However that is due to the epic quests that follow the title name (Lord of the Rings). Somehow I think if they left it at Middle Earth Online and focused more on just letting us live in Middle Earth in the latter years and then let us experience all the history lore in discovery or quests adventure and etc it would feel more like a Graphical ME MUD rather than a guided tour through the Trilogy. Plus like WoW I hate how they use mountain regions to divide areas like fancy huge walls not permitting you to freely adventure and get lost and compassing from memory to find your way back. Now that is my type of game
Mountains are meant to be climbed, not used as barriers of DO NOT PASS!!!
Or, like I have stated in the VG forums. If you really feel that VG has the potential, stick with it and hope that SOE will fix all the mess Brad did with the project. I am re:subscribed myself and play it a bit on the side and watch and hope for a lot of change. I can't wait for the day I see that the patch will say:
Patch time estimation: 20+ hours @12,000 kbps - Otherwords. A HUGE PATCH!!!
Imagine making a sauce for a steak marinate and you ask everyone that even new what was good, but the thing is you use everything what they all listed. In the end you got a mess. 5 different peppers, 4 different garlic types, 3 different onions, 6 different wines and the steak gets marinated multiple times. I think by then the steak is not only well marinated, but well sauced and already cooked from the juices alone. What do you do with that steak? Throw it away. It is no good now.
I like to compare an MMORPG to a living organism. You have to design it based on an overall concept (or vision as I said in my previous post). It has to be a complete world, filled with adventure and exploration and lore and mythology. Then you fill it in with the elements that you (as a dev) think make it work best. Whether it be PvP or PvE, raid oriented or solo oriented, level based or skill based, etc. You can't say to yourself, "Most people want a PvP game, so let's make an MMO based on player vs player and build a world around it." That philosophy is doomed to fail because it will be too heavily weighted to that aspect. If you can make a game where all the elements are working together, then you are onto something.
I also like your list of games to show how your interest evolved over time. Similiarly, I remember playing games like Civilization and Lords of the Realm in the early 90s where you controled each individual unit on the map. I got so used to it that I figured that's what computer games were always going to be like. Then one day I saw my brother playing a new game called Heroes of Might and Magic. I was stunned to see him controlling a single hero marching across the map that represented an army and when the hero engaged an enemy hero, the game zoomed into the battlefield and you could see the entire army. That's also a good example of how devs need to do their own thing. If they had asked me, as a gamer, what I wanted to see, I would have based my comments on earlier games and the design would never exist.
Btw, the previous paragraph is not a sleight on Civilization or Lords of the Realm, just an example of how devs need to think outside the box. Civilization remains one of my all-time favorite games I have played. Top-notch
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Originally posted by Rudnoc Imagine making a sauce for a steak marinate and you ask everyone that even new what was good, but the thing is you use everything what they all listed. In the end you got a mess. 5 different peppers, 4 different garlic types, 3 different onions, 6 different wines and the steak gets marinated multiple times. I think by then the steak is not only well marinated, but well sauced and already cooked from the juices alone. What do you do with that steak? Throw it away. It is no good now. _________________________________________________________________________________________________________ I like to compare an MMORPG to a living organism. You have to design it based on an overall concept (or vision as I said in my previous post). It has to be a complete world, filled with adventure and exploration and lore and mythology. Then you fill it in with the elements that you (as a dev) think make it work best. Whether it be PvP or PvE, raid oriented or solo oriented, level based or skill based, etc. You can't say to yourself, "Most people want a PvP game, so let's make an MMO based on player vs player and build a world around it." That philosophy is doomed to fail because it will be too heavily weighted to that aspect. If you can make a game where all the elements are working together, then you are onto something. I also like your list of games to show how your interest evolved over time. Similiarly, I remember playing games like Civilization and Lords of the Realm in the early 90s where you controled each individual unit on the map. I got so used to it that I figured that's what computer games were always going to be like. Then one day I saw my brother playing a new game called Heroes of Might and Magic. I was stunned to see him controlling a single hero marching across the map that represented an army and when the hero engaged an enemy hero, the game zoomed into the battlefield and you could see the entire army. That's also a good example of how devs need to do their own thing. If they had asked me, as a gamer, what I wanted to see, I would have based my comments on earlier games and the design would never exist. Btw, the previous paragraph is not a sleight on Civilization or Lords of the Realm, just an example of how devs need to think outside the box. Civilization remains one of my all-time favorite games I have played. Top-notch
Kudos to you
HoMM is a great game and so is Civ series. If you ever want to play a game that falls in the middle of them two titles give AoW a try. Infact Their latest one is the best I think.
I like the combat a lot better than HoMM. it has more strategic movement that gives the game a D&D sort of feel to it Well, the D&D I originally knew. Like the gold box series, especially Curse of the Asure Bonds and etc.
Sorry, edited for posting wrong AoW. AoW:SM is most current and AoW2 is older.
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I actually think another poster said it best when he was refering to the loss of that magic fuzzy feeling we had back in UO. Alot of mmo's today are being designed with game mechanics first and a story slapped on second. The games where the company really planned out the world, the hero's, villians and plots are self evidant to us when we play them. No one can deny the feeling of cohesion when they played Oblivion and really felt like all the flavor was there when they learned about Tamriel. UO players recall the extensive lore behind Britannia, or the extensive story behind Asherons Call. In the beginning some companies approached a MMO like they would a game of D&D. They'd come up with the setting, plot, characters and locations, and then improvise the game as the players wandered through their predesigned settings. The best campaigns felt cohesive and had plots which related to one another in the grander scheme.
Even World of Warcraft has a good world feeling and lore because the zones and characters pre-existed from the story developed in the previous 3 RTS titles. It's not like Metzen came up with it overnight, he and other designers brainstormed alot of story and setting before the mechanics of the game were ever in. Rather then adding nameless badguy in dark tower_03 for the 20-30 levels to kill for loot, they added a character from the games or stories to challange, It felt much more meaningful then just another named boss in a dungeon.
Arioc Murkwood
Environment Artist
Sad but true.
Well, actually this is not completely true - both the RTS and FPS genres are seeing a lot of cool innovation. Just look at games like Supreme Commander or the upcoming Crysis that are revolutionizing what gamers expect in terms of scale, playability, cutting-edge graphics, etc. Then there are innovative games like Bioshock or Spore that promise to offer both excellent graphics and completely new gaming experiences. Even turn-based gaming fans have ultra-cool titles to choose from such as Medieval 2 Total War.
So no, I don't think the PC gaming industry is in a rut - although the MMOG genre certainly is.
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When the costs of producing a quality product are so high, people with the money, the investors will play it safe. Look at Vanguard, $30m spent, Sigil ran out of money and a not very good unfinished game at the end of it.
In fact, the computer games industry is even worse than the film industry. At least low budget films can get made, and can be amazingly successful. Films like Blair Witch Project, or Reservior Dogs, with a tiny budget, but can have a huge impact and a huge sucess.
However to make a good quality computer game, or at least a comparable computer game, then theres not much difference in cost, so people will naturally go for the ones which make more cash.
What is needed, is not indie developers, but a change in attitude in the big companies. Ones like Blizzard, SOE and EA to be funding new ideas, like film studios do for lower budget films. It'll take time, and companies need to treat the industry more like an entertainment industry than a money-making one.
Hell, maybe we need our equivalent of the oscars...
They suck to put it bluntly. They do nothing but bring rifts betweem people.
Example: I play only 2 hours a week, good friend plays 4 hours. He advances closely twice as fast as I do. Therefore, when I am level 10 he is level 20. I can no longer group with my friend and now am forced to seek refuge with strangers.
I never had to worry about this ever in any skill based game. UO for example, anytime I logged in I could go anywhere and everywhere regardless of worrying about levels. Me and my friend would be able to journey to any dungeon or forest, no questions asked. I may have needed more healing time than him, but there never was a need to completely negate my existance because of a level.
The other thing that level based games do is they strip you of the MMO part. Wild as it may seem, I believe in a MMO I should be able to interact with the community as a whole. Its MASSIVE, its MULTIPLAYING, those two words to me seem as if it would enclude the whole on a particular server. If I am unable to interact and play the game with a LVL 60 player when I am LVL 10, that limits the MASSIVE, that limits the populous I am able to interact with. Level based MMO's ruin the whole concept of MMO based on how it classifes and seperates the masses.
Of course this is my opinion.
I think its the lack of "freedom" in mmo's that needs to be fixed.
and the lack of a really good up-to-date sandbox mmo
thats just me though.
In the beginning there were some good projects that tried to stand close to the "rpg" part of the genre as much as possible. UO, AO and such. Then came WoW with its simplicity and "pick-it-up-and-play-it" style. Its true, everyone could play with it, independent from age and IQ. That was the mistake that ruined this genre. WoW killed out the RPG part. I explain:
RPG's arent made for everyone. It happens that someone dont have even a little clue of imagination or he or she dont likes to think at all. Thogh they can play FPS or Adventure games where thinking and using your imagination is not the #1 thing that you have to do. Thats why the original pen n paper roleplaying games werent so famous. Blizzard made its game and it dared to call it RPG (becouse the fans and the frenchise and offcourse for the profit).
Becouse of this, everyone picked up the game and becouse most of us, humans dont have the imagination, the company suited its game to the general needs. People wanted action. They got action in the form of the eternal grind and pvp. People wanted quests so they can show up something if someone wanted to know why does he or she sit at the computer and doing the same things over and over again. "Does that monster hurted you? -No but i have a quest that tells me i have to kill these! - Oh thats great!" They got quests, though they were envolved in delivery, killing, and bring items back style, but that done it. The short-brained public forgot to act like the game deserves it. They wanted only action and prosperful experiences if they played. The community crashed, they only used the chatbox if they wanted buffs/heals or at trades or when they wanted spam swears over another player when he stole his kill by an accident or directly. Independant from these the game was a total succes and made a huge profit. And what the company wants? money. What the other company wants? same. Other companies made cheap raplicas from wow, not becouse they liked it, just becouse they wanted money too. And nowadays we play these cheap trashes that they made, regardles of different name, different logo, different company, different game. (Respect for the exceptions). The shame is that we realized this too late.
It can happen that i had wrote something wrong and made some mistakes, thats just my point of view, feel free to bash or flame.
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Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
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I think the real question is, how old were you when UO and Everquest came out? Do you now have a gf/wife, maybe some kids? Have you gone farther into your job, meaning more time at work with more responsibility? These questions arn't just for you but the whole gaming communtiy. How much time do we really have nowadays to play the games we once loved? My cousin and I used to duo all the time in MMO's and have a blast doing it. The harder it was to level the better but now those days are gone. He has 2 kids and a wife who has a foot up his ass all day long so he rarely plays anymore. I now have 3 kids and alot less time for these games. The games we now look for need to be enjoyable and not so much of a grind. More on the way of, can you get in the game and play for an hour and feel like we had fun. Gone are the 5-8 hour gaming sessions.
I don't even know what I am talking about here. Maybe I posted in the wrong thread.
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
I basically agree. But more leaning towards Ultima Worlds Online: Origin (UWO:O originally titled UO2) then Ultima X: Odyssey (UXO)
Or should we really say the 2 attempts to create the "Ultimate" MMORPG?
From OP : Who is developing a game that is going to truly evolve?
IMO : BioWare all the way, how much it will change MMO world, i don't know. But sure as i was born they care about the product as much as the $$
They have the perfect track record, and a superb company. My hopes are with them, and there MMO
Very true, but also number crunching, level focusing, grinding and stat watching is all the players fault. It is all where the focus is. Most people of the younger generation play the games this way. Even if you made a game that really tried to get you to FOCUS on story, community and other "In game " elements, you still will have the ones that are in a hurry and don't give a rats ass about story, community, Role play and etc and only want to compete to race to the so called "End game". If you take away the "end game", leveling, grinding, FFA PvP, you take away what most MMO fans call a game.
What is REALLY funny is them same people gripe and whine about the same things that they want in the game. So, no matter what they will continue to make negative remarks of what is bad and good. Why? Because they were taught that if you find things wrong then you are knowledgeable of what should and shouldn't be in a game. If you don't complain then you are a newb that doesn't know what its good or bad. Where did they learn this? From listening to us about all the problems from our previous games.
They complain about how a game has too much grind. So the devs make a game will less grind. Then they complain that they don't get enough experience from killing and that the exp is based too much on the DUMB questing. Shees even WoW made it so the quest text appears instantly for the people that don't want to read the quest info. That is just a very mild sample of what is going on.
End thing is as long as we keep thinging we know what should be in a game and demanding it, they will continiue to listen to us so called "Game Masters" and continue to make games based on what the masses say, since obviously it it the masses that will bring in the most money.
Until the masses start saying they want True originality, More diverse story archs and multiple paths, more of a thinkers game than a twitch combat that is a reflection of a diverse FPS game. Otherwise they will keep sending us things we all keep complaning about.
Honestly I think the MMO dev community is very confused from the player community, why? because of stuff like this:
Zones suck...They give us seemless lands. Then people complain that it takes too long to get from one place to another.
Game has too much grind, so they put in more story and things to do other than just killing. Then people complain that the game is too tedious and you spend too much time running around doing things other than killing.
Leveling takes too long and it has lost the sense of accomplishement, so they make leveling faster and everyone complains that the "end game doesn't have enough stuff to do".
Crafting is too useless and serves no purpose. So they make items, weapons and armor crafting create more rare things that you can't find in the land. Then everyone complains that they can't get what someone else has and it cost too much...
I could go on and on and on and on of what I see Millions and millions of players constantly complaining and then contradicing themselves.
You know what I think in the end? I think no one really knows what they really want AND they have no sense of gratification or what it means to earn something. They think if it isn't handed to them it is called "WORK". If they have to ADVENTURE, EXPLORE or TRAVEL a bit of distance without instant portaling or recalling there they call it "A TIME SINK", if they have to kill monsters more than a few times they call it "GRINDING". If they have to collect things they call it "Fed EX questing" Which I prefer to call it a TASK. IF the game involves reading anything more than a sentence it is an "INCONVENIENCE" and BORING. For these sort of players, I call lazy minded, dull and boring that can only be mentally stimulated from single cell nerve responses.The devs need to create a game ROOM and put these types of player in it and give them everything they want and tell them they are GREAT, SMART, TALENTED, THE ALL MIGHTY GOD OF HEROES AND NO ONE CAN TOUCH THEM. Then tell them again, but using a Thesaurus so they don't think it is a grind.
I really think it is time to separate the genres up in the MMO community. Why, because all the developers know is that they want to make a MMO and make money on a monthly basis. They need to now start focusing on if they want to make a MMO"Role Playing Game", MMO "First Person Shooter", MMO Real Time Strategy", MMO Hack-n-Slash" or the many hybrid types. So far all they are doing is catering to the masses and the masses out here are making demands based on what they like and what they like are from elements from their favorite games. Which can be from FPS, RPG, RTS, HnS and all the other stuff out there that people like. So far the devs are listening to the WHOLE GAMING COMMUNITY on what should be made. So what do we see right now coming out? A Liozebraffkey Instead of a Lion, Zebra, Giraff and a Monkey. WoW is a perfect example of this, plus more games to come as well.
MMO can be a correct analogy for all since they are all Massive, Multiplayer and of course Online.
But they need to stop labeling all the others as RPG.
A lot of titles need to be brought over to the RTS and FPS genre and doesn't belong in the RPG genre.
Even WoW, but eventhough Diablo is also a RPG I think they need to be relabeled as HnS rather than RPG. A lot of the PvP, grind love, non-story arch l337 n3wb whatever stuff need to be relabeled as HnS. Or if they refuse then we need to take the good RPG titles and then just relabel them as CRGP or HFRPG so to differentiate from the mindless Hack n Slash type RPG titles or other Mock up MMORPG games.
Well, anyway. I would carry on, but I really think this topic needs to be in a chat room so there is feedback and the discussion can go in a good direction. This difinitely needs to be a topic of discussion and things need to change, because so far MMORPG.com is a home for ALL MMO's and it is like mixing all RPG, RTS, FPS and all the other genres into one room and expecting us to get along.
you hear that MMORPG.com? Maybe this is an opportunity to expand and diversify to dominate the MMO market advertisement!
thats whats wrong with games
Your post, Rudnoc, is a good example of why I am a firm believer in someone who has a vision (and the means of course) developing a game the way they want and hope that it's popular enough to win fans over. A lot of people say build a game based on tons of feedback from gamers so you know you will make what they want. But that's exactly the problem, most gamers don't know what they want. Or more appropriately, they don't realize what they want. What they think they want in a game turns out to bore them quickly. Most people say they hate the grind. But what do they do when they play - they go out and grind and try to be the first one to the finish line.
That's why devs need to come up with their own formula of what they think works and get the gamers to come around to their way of thinking. Look at Everquest. They were the first (or amongst the first) to build an MMORPG. They were breaking new ground. They had no idea what the players would like and what they wouldn't. So they made it the way they thought it would work. And it did. But MMOs need to grow and evolve and advance, and they just don't seem to be doing that. And it's for exactly the reasons that you stated. Companies with the money aren't going to take the risks to invest in new ideas so long as the same old ideas make money. The old crap is going to have to become unprofitable before they stop doing the same thing over and over.
I did though and started EVE online as the game launched, I played this for a long old time before running in boredom, a quick stint in City of Hero's (boring real quick) then lead to my long addiction to WoW. I was a GM in WoW for a couple of years until BC hit and killed my guild and in the same moment killed the game for me as well. I realized that running the guild was more fun (till the end) than the game itself. Now i can't seem to find anything i really do want to play, things get boring so fast
Endless farming/grinding makes me a very dull boy
For the time and effort you have to invest in these games there just ain't enough reward. (i.e. FUN!)
As previously stated, companies run the gaming industry and until enough of us get bored and stop paying them, games won't improve.
I love gaming and have been a gamer for 20+ years but find myself with a super beefed up machine and nothing to really play on it.
Tabula Rasa is the game that i hope to save me from my gamer oblivion, that or i start playing football again (i don't thing my legs will approve).
So true! Infact that is why a lot of us are standing around waiting and wondering why our original love hasn't been replaced yet. As more Veterans of the MMO communities are still waiting for a reasonable game to replace their old love they had for UO, EQ or like me AC. Now I know some of you may think, "sorry but that feeling is the feeling of a first love". Well as I see it, no it isn't and it can be refelt by something better I call the next step.
Think of it this way, Doom was my first original FPS love. It was replaced by Quake, then replaced by Quake2, then Half-Life, then BF 1942, then BF2 and now I very much anticipate Enemy Territories: Quake Wars and OVERLY excited for the calling of CRYSIS. What the feeling we are looking for is that Wow, Ahhhh, Ohhhh, Ewwww and Woohoo!! Oh yeah Baby, and GOTCHA . Mohahahaha feeling. Some found it with WoW, some found it with EQ2 some of us are just still waiting and saying Ehhh, not yet. Will War do it? Will AoC do it. Well maybe for some, but not all. Originally I thought LOTRO was going to do it for me. But I think that was just more wishful thinking since Turbine made my first love of the MMO gaming. However, I am keeping a eye on VG to see if it takes a 180 degree turn, but have more high hopes on Heros Journey. I use to be a big MUD player with Gemstone, so maybe Simu will capture my desires again.
However, giving it much thought is if Richard Garriott got off his butt and just took a deep breath and put all his heart back into UWO/UO2/UXO I bet he would bring a LOT of us HARDCORE CRPG fanbase the Ahhhhhhh's for a while to come.
Developers need to really trust in their own vision and stop relying on polls and feedbacks from the gaming community. AC2 is a perfect example of polls/feedback game building and look where it got them. That is one thing that is so ironic is that a game is based on what the Majority wanted, but when it came down to deliver that product everyone was disgusted. The problem is not that it came from the pubilc, it is that it came from "all" of the public Polls and feedbacks.
Imagine making a sauce for a steak marinate and you ask everyone that even new what was good, but the thing is you use everything what they all listed. In the end you got a mess. 5 different peppers, 4 different garlic types, 3 different onions, 6 different wines and the steak gets marinated multiple times. I think by then the steak is not only well marinated, but well sauced and already cooked from the juices alone. What do you do with that steak? Throw it away. It is no good now.
I had my short lived fun in DAoC, SB, AO, EQ2, WoW, LOTRO BEtA (LMAO --->>> yes BETA) , and lots of other MMO's including VG to lvl 10 too many times. It has the elements but lacking in a LOT which I believe in the right hands it can become a masterpiece...NO LIES, Honest! However, the fun and long livity of my days in AC has not yet been replaced. But one day it will be, by whom? I don't know. I just hope it is soon. Well atleast I got my Gothic3, TESIV, NwN2 (Pffff) to keep me busy till Richard gets off his ass and puts the project back up.
i completely agree i belive that all our hearts were so into the rise of vanguard and with the total upset of the release and all the bugs i belive with the right people Vanguard will rule over any mmo out there but i think the devs have fallen asleep behind the wheel and wont admit that maybe they are in over there heads or for what ever reason. right now i ponder do i play a console game or go back to Eq, Eq2,WoW,Vanguard,LOTRO,CoH, god i have played them all i just want something to bid my time until something awesome comes out or something improves if you have any ideas of something i havent played i would love a suggestion
Many Men Online Roleplaying Girls
hahahaha
Well, I can suggest LOTRO. It has about a 2 month play cycle before you get tired of it. Then once they introduce Rohan and other areas I am sure it will be added pleasure. However, the game just feels too much like a single player game in a multiplayer world. It has some freedom to your adventuring, but yet at the same time it feels linear and guided. However that is due to the epic quests that follow the title name (Lord of the Rings). Somehow I think if they left it at Middle Earth Online and focused more on just letting us live in Middle Earth in the latter years and then let us experience all the history lore in discovery or quests adventure and etc it would feel more like a Graphical ME MUD rather than a guided tour through the Trilogy. Plus like WoW I hate how they use mountain regions to divide areas like fancy huge walls not permitting you to freely adventure and get lost and compassing from memory to find your way back. Now that is my type of game
Mountains are meant to be climbed, not used as barriers of DO NOT PASS!!!
Or, like I have stated in the VG forums. If you really feel that VG has the potential, stick with it and hope that SOE will fix all the mess Brad did with the project. I am re:subscribed myself and play it a bit on the side and watch and hope for a lot of change. I can't wait for the day I see that the patch will say:
Patch time estimation: 20+ hours @12,000 kbps - Otherwords. A HUGE PATCH!!!
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Originally posted by Rudnoc
Imagine making a sauce for a steak marinate and you ask everyone that even new what was good, but the thing is you use everything what they all listed. In the end you got a mess. 5 different peppers, 4 different garlic types, 3 different onions, 6 different wines and the steak gets marinated multiple times. I think by then the steak is not only well marinated, but well sauced and already cooked from the juices alone. What do you do with that steak? Throw it away. It is no good now.
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I like to compare an MMORPG to a living organism. You have to design it based on an overall concept (or vision as I said in my previous post). It has to be a complete world, filled with adventure and exploration and lore and mythology. Then you fill it in with the elements that you (as a dev) think make it work best. Whether it be PvP or PvE, raid oriented or solo oriented, level based or skill based, etc. You can't say to yourself, "Most people want a PvP game, so let's make an MMO based on player vs player and build a world around it." That philosophy is doomed to fail because it will be too heavily weighted to that aspect. If you can make a game where all the elements are working together, then you are onto something.
I also like your list of games to show how your interest evolved over time. Similiarly, I remember playing games like Civilization and Lords of the Realm in the early 90s where you controled each individual unit on the map. I got so used to it that I figured that's what computer games were always going to be like. Then one day I saw my brother playing a new game called Heroes of Might and Magic. I was stunned to see him controlling a single hero marching across the map that represented an army and when the hero engaged an enemy hero, the game zoomed into the battlefield and you could see the entire army. That's also a good example of how devs need to do their own thing. If they had asked me, as a gamer, what I wanted to see, I would have based my comments on earlier games and the design would never exist.
Btw, the previous paragraph is not a sleight on Civilization or Lords of the Realm, just an example of how devs need to think outside the box. Civilization remains one of my all-time favorite games I have played. Top-notch
Kudos to you
HoMM is a great game and so is Civ series. If you ever want to play a game that falls in the middle of them two titles give AoW a try. Infact Their latest one is the best I think.
I like the combat a lot better than HoMM. it has more strategic movement that gives the game a D&D sort of feel to it
Well, the D&D I originally knew. Like the gold box series, especially Curse of the Asure Bonds and etc.
Sorry, edited for posting wrong AoW. AoW:SM is most current and AoW2 is older.