Religion Based Bigotry

gnomexxx · May 2007

This is a pretty interesting site. An organization standing up to religion based bigotry.

What I find interesting is that they're not against religion, just the misuse of it to warrant the hatred and bigotry we see so much of today from the "religious" people.

Yet, how much you want to bet me they get pegged as anti-Christian/Muslim/Jew or whatever?

http://www.faithinamerica.info/newSite/

An Ad from them...

http://www.faithinamerica.info/pdf/FIA-history-2.pdf

noname12345 · May 2007

I'm sorry but in that ad those women and that black man are inferior...politicians.

This one is eye catching: http://www.faithinamerica.info/pdf/FIA-choices-5.pdf

Aelfinn · May 2007

Finally, a group I can fully support without any reservations.

Alcanan · May 2007

Interesting web page. I think I'll read more about this group since they, on the surface at least, appear to have similar beliefs to my own. Thanks for the link

porgie · May 2007

It's about time for an organized group like this.

This could be the start of something that brings people together someday. Because nothing is going to get better until the folks who truly have faith tell these other nitwits to STFU and quit making them look bad.

gnomexxx · May 2007

Originally posted by porgie

It's about time for an organized group like this.

This could be the start of something that brings people together someday. Because nothing is going to get better until the folks who truly have faith tell these other nitwits to STFU and quit making them look bad.

I know.

Wouldn't it be nice to see the true followers call the people who claim to be religious to task? I might even pick up a religion if that happened.

Gameloading · May 2007

Look, you are all deluded!

www.youtube.com/watch

Its true!

Coldmeat · May 2007

Originally posted by Gameloading
Look, you are all deluded!www.youtube.com/watchIts true!

I see what they did there!

Sadly, it seems there's quite a few that have yet to catch the Clue Bus...

noname12345 · May 2007

Originally posted by Coldmeat

I see what they did there!
Sadly, it seems there's quite a few that have yet to catch the Clue Bus...

I think they actually missed the logic train.

Draenor · May 2007

Originally posted by Nasica

Do you think they would allow me to start up the Australian wing for this organisation ?

Nothing (except creationism) pisses me off more than pure racism, bigotry and discrimination justified by deluded religious people.

Racism is bad, no matter what book you read.
I have a saying in life. 'Evil is Evil'.

This is just so tempting...

/poke

Draenor · May 2007

Originally posted by Nasica

Originally posted by Draenor

Originally posted by Nasica

Do you think they would allow me to start up the Australian wing for this organisation ?

Nothing (except creationism) pisses me off more than pure racism, bigotry and discrimination justified by deluded religious people.

Racism is bad, no matter what book you read.
I have a saying in life. 'Evil is Evil'.

This is just so tempting...

/poke

What do you mean ?

Are you telling me that these people dont exist ?

Or are you telling me i am wrong for being annoyed by racism and bigotry ?

I dont understand what you are getting at.

EDIT : On second thoughs, i think you are getting at my reference to creationism, so i shall elaborate on it a little bit.

I have no problems with creationism as a religious belief, i have a problem with creationism as a scientific theory.

people can believe what they want, but if they want to play the Science game, they have to play by the rules of science, no one has any right to change the rules of that. Not even the worlds greatest scientists

What if you're like me and apply science to your beliefs? Where does that leave you? I believe that science should focus on finding the truth, not describing reality in terms of only naturalistic explanations, that limits the mind.

noname12345 · May 2007

Originally posted by Draenor

What if you're like me and apply science to your beliefs? Where does that leave you? I believe that science should focus on finding the truth, not describing reality in terms of only naturalistic explanations, that limits the mind.

I think you're just thinking of science as biology, physics,...ect. Those things certainly are parts of science but the biggest part of science is the scientific method.

You must first QUESTION your beliefs! You CANNOT assume you KNOW the truth.

Then research your question.

Make a hypothesis, which is "a mere assumption or guess", maybe you could say "educated guess"...but that "educated" means different things to different people.

Then make a procedure/method designed to test your guess. This needs to be written and able to be duplicated by other scientists.

Then input the data and write down your observations.

Was your conclusion, correct?

Thats applying science to your beliefs. Christians think they know everything and find science stuff that fits their belief...that's "applying" science half-assed.

Scientists do try to find the truth about tons of different subjects, but they will never assume they found the truth or else they sound like f'ing idiots 50 years from now when some scientist(s) finds out he was wrong.

Naturalistic explanations are natural...what's the opposite of natural? Artificial. Anyways I think there are scientists that study paranormal...so.

Draenor · May 2007

Originally posted by Nasica

Originally posted by Draenor

Originally posted by Nasica

Originally posted by Draenor

Originally posted by Nasica

Do you think they would allow me to start up the Australian wing for this organisation ?

Nothing (except creationism) pisses me off more than pure racism, bigotry and discrimination justified by deluded religious people.

Racism is bad, no matter what book you read.
I have a saying in life. 'Evil is Evil'.

This is just so tempting...

/poke

What do you mean ?

Are you telling me that these people dont exist ?

Or are you telling me i am wrong for being annoyed by racism and bigotry ?

I dont understand what you are getting at.

EDIT : On second thoughs, i think you are getting at my reference to creationism, so i shall elaborate on it a little bit.

I have no problems with creationism as a religious belief, i have a problem with creationism as a scientific theory.

people can believe what they want, but if they want to play the Science game, they have to play by the rules of science, no one has any right to change the rules of that. Not even the worlds greatest scientists

What if you're like me and apply science to your beliefs? Where does that leave you? I believe that science should focus on finding the truth, not describing reality in terms of only naturalistic explanations, that limits the mind.

Applying science to your beleifs is one thing, breaking down the basis of predictability is another entirely different thing.

I, personally, believe that Genesis describes big bang theory rather well, now that would be applying science to your belief.

There is a huge difference between applying science to your beliefs and applying your beliefs to science.

How exactly does Genesis describe a state of compact high density particles catastrophically turning into a state of widespread low density particles? I want specific passages and verses here.

I believe that Science should seek the truth...nothing more, nothing less...just the truth. I do not believe that my beliefs are being upheld by the scientific community of today. Not because of a disagreement of beliefs, but a disagreement of how reality is to be described. People like Stephen Hawking want to describe reality in terms of equations and rules. Why? Because that is what has become the norm. Obviously these equations are helpful in describing reality, but they'll never be fully sufficient in describing the nature of that reality. Stephen Hawking says in his own book, "If we find the answer to that [i.e. why it is that we and the universe exist], it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason—for then we would know the mind of God." He believes that a theory, an equation, or model, is going to be able to explain the nature of our existence...he is therefore inherently limiting himself due to the very nature of how scientists qualify something as a theory or model. He wants to know the mind of God, but he doesn't see that in the world of science, there can be no God, because God renders a theory unscientific. Scientists like Hawking will never know the mind of God because they are too busy trying to find the mind of God within the confines of an "ultimate triumph of human reason" No human reason can come close to any sort of creator that made the universe in which we live, to believe that we could, is a level of arrogance that I could not fathom to possess.

Tamalan · May 2007

Bad man Draenor, yet another superb stealth derailment into the now regular science vs religion debate

On Topic: It's about time an organisation such as this existed. I'm not in any way religious. I have friends who are that tease me that if i stepped into a church I would begin to smoulder, indeed Ive never even been christened so this is yet to be tested. Its just very refreshing to see a religious group come out fighting for the right reason.

A couple of days ago I watched a documentary on a church community who protest at the funerals of soldiers killed in the current war. They maintain that the entire USA is being punished by god and everyone is going to hell (except them obviously). They cite tolerance to gay people and pre-marital sex among the reasons for God's punishment, and as the war is part of this punishment, anyone who dies fighting in it deserves their death for being a sinner. This it seems gives them the right to stand outside memorial services for KIA soldiers holding placards saying 'Fag Sin'.

Here they are in all their intolerant, bigoted and moronic glory. All in the name of god of course.

And yes, that web address in the link is, believe it or not, the address to a Baptist Church Official website.

solynar · May 2007

Firstly, you have to understand that searching for a reference to "a state of compact high density particles catastrophically turning into a state of widespread low density particles" in a 6000yo book is ridiculous at best.
But Genesis 1:2 (The earth was without form, and void) is particularly appropriate to what you described above. The moment of Creation or the Big Bang

Just means empty space?
Then we have Genesis 1:3 "Let their be light" which rather cleverly explains a "bang"

Where? Is it hidden in the code? I see nothing pertaining to an explosion or 'bang'. Just someone lit a torch.

Moving on to Genesis 1:6-7 ( “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven.) Which is an excellent description of the fluctuation in the 'primordial soup' which condensed down to create the first particles of the universe, thu seperating matter from space, or earth from heaven.
It means someone made Jello. JEEZ

Genesis 1:9 (Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear) also describes those first particles condensing to form the large scale structures of the Universe including planets.
But then water wouldn't be in one place? Its ALL OVER THE PLACE.

Not just that, but the bible shows us that a definite process was invovled in reaching the 6th day (where man was created) this is what physics have shown us, that a definitie order of creation is a necessity. Funnly enough, there are precisely 5 yes FIVE things that must of happened to achieve the creation of man.... the SIXTH thing (Big Bang and precise order of creation of the 4 forces).
Moving on to Genesis's clever description of Evolution. (not asked for but you have me on a roll now)
Genesis 1:20 (Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear) Describes clearly that creatures of the water came first which is what evolutionist understand.
No it doesn't. For dry land to appear that would mean there had to of been dry land in the first place. otherwise it would be wet land.

Genesis 1:24 (Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind:)also shows that it wasnt god who created the creatures,but God created the process which allowed the earth to bring forth those creature.
I know you are just going to tell me i have taken this all out of context, but meh. You asked for it, so here it is. I just hope you try to understand what i am trying to say here, and hopefully you will realise that any priest who tries to teach things as fact out of the bible is taking it out of Gods context. I hope this interested you beyond humor.
You do realise there is more then 1 religion that has priests right? And GOD FORBID, a lot don't follow your gods bible.

Honestly. I couldn't give a rats butt cheek what you believe. Just don't go preaching it around. As long as you do what you believe is good, not what someone else tells you is good. A person has the right to believe what they want to believe. It may be easier to believe what the crowd believes but don't call them atheist because they don't believe what you believe. (not saying you did but a lot of people do, atheism means you don't believe in anything spiritual or 'greater'.)

I believe theres always something bigger, always something greater (and smaller). I also believe theres a balance. If you create the ultimate good theres bound to be an ultimate evil.

Anyways, peace. You can always Google for alternative religion stuff. I recommend some celtic/druidic books, some interesting reads.

edit:

Originally posted by Tamalan

Bad man Draenor, yet another superb stealth derailment into the now regular science vs religion debate

On Topic: It's about time an organisation such as this existed. I'm not in any way religious. I have friends who are that tease me that if i stepped into a church I would begin to smoulder, indeed Ive never even been christened so this is yet to be tested. Its just very refreshing to see a religious group come out fighting for the right reason.
A couple of days ago I watched a documentary on a church community who protest at the funerals of soldiers killed in the current war. They maintain that the entire USA is being punished by god and everyone is going to hell (except them obviously). They cite tolerance to gay people and pre-marital sex among the reasons for God's punishment, and as the war is part of this punishment, anyone who dies fighting in it deserves their death for being a sinner. This it seems gives them the right to stand outside memorial services for KIA soldiers holding placards saying 'Fag Sin'.
Here they are in all their intolerant, bigoted and moronic glory. All in the name of god of course.

And yes, that web address in the link is, believe it or not, the address to a Baptist Church Official website.

You gotta be **** kidding me. I'd so be.... if I was at one of those funerals they damn well better be praying.

noname12345 · May 2007

Originally posted by Draenor
I believe that Science should seek the truth...nothing more, nothing less...just the truth.

There is no "truth" in science. Either theories have evidence to support them or evidence supports the idea that a theory is an inaccurate view of reality. But even if the evidence supports a theory today, tomorrow, new evidence may show the theory needs revision. It happens all the time.

That’s what happened with Isaac Newton’s theories of mechanics and universal gravitation. For a couple of centuries all the evidence seemed to show his theories explained the universe precisely and were deemed "true." But in the late 19th century evidence started to accumulate that disturbed scientists. They were discovering phenomena Newton’s theory didn’t account for. It was in explaining how these new pieces of evidence, as well as other ideas, fit into a more comprehensive theory that Albert Einstein made his mark. And Newton’s theory which had appeared to be "true" for so long was finally shown to be untrue. Now Einstein’s theory is the new "truth". But even his theories may fall by the wayside, and Einstein himself once said that no amount of experimentation would ever prove his theories were right, but just one experiment could prove him wrong.

I do not believe that my beliefs are being upheld by the scientific community of today. Not because of a disagreement of beliefs, but a disagreement of how reality is to be described.

I'm pretty sure the scientific community disagree with your beliefs and philosophy. Science is itself a philosophy, a way to look at the universe, and reality, and describe it.

People like Stephen Hawking want to describe reality in terms of equations and rules.

Those pesky rules!! What's the opposite of rules and equations? Chaos? Random beliefs (like we have throughout the world)?

Why? Because that is what has become the norm.

Science is a philosophy with a set of rules just like any other philosophy or religion, but it happens to be the most spectacularly successful philosophy ever devised for interpreting reality…
The reason is, when a scientific theory doesn’t correspond to reality, the scientist assumes the theory is wrong and he attempts to modify it or he goes out to look for a better theory. In contrast, when a religion or philosophy doesn’t correspond to reality, very often it’s the evidence that is assumed to be wrong. Those fossils were put there by God to test our faith!

Obviously these equations are helpful in describing reality, but they'll never be fully sufficient in describing the nature of that reality. Stephen Hawking says in his own book, "If we find the answer to that [i.e. why it is that we and the universe exist], it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason—for then we would know the mind of God." He believes that a theory, an equation, or model, is going to be able to explain the nature of our existence

And that could happen. Science has come a long long long way since the age of flat earthers. Next task is you creationists, perhaps in a matter of time.

...he is therefore inherently limiting himself due to the very nature of how scientists qualify something as a theory or model. He wants to know the mind of God, but he doesn't see that in the world of science, there can be no God, because God renders a theory unscientific.

Saying "God did it", renders it unscientific because of the very obvious reasons. You don't understand anything any better by saying God did it. Saying "God did it" is so easy, even a caveman can do it!

Anyways I think you have a preconcieved notion about what God consists of and that's your handicap. You can't go into science with preconcieved notions. I think you have to tackle God's existence like a puzzle. You need to do a bunch of smaller things like science is doing now. Science hasn't even completely understood our world and our universe (at least the area of the universe we're in). So after that then perhaps God will become the sum total of everything on a scientific basis.

As far as the mind of God, well that might be trickier. Looking at my Mom or Dad, or Dog, I can't figure out what's in their mind....unless I ask and even then they can lie. These are miniature issues that only now is science beginning to get a grasp of some of it. Are we on par to find out what's in God's mind after everything is considered? No, we don't even know the the nature of our own habitat (earth & universe), yet. So after that, we can figure out who created it.

Scientists like Hawking will never know the mind of God because they are too busy trying to find the mind of God within the confines of an "ultimate triumph of human reason" No human reason can come close to any sort of creator that made the universe in which we live, to believe that we could, is a level of arrogance that I could not fathom to possess.

So a human must be unreasonable to believe in your God...

porgie · May 2007

Originally posted by Draenor

Originally posted by Nasica

Originally posted by Draenor

Originally posted by Nasica

Do you think they would allow me to start up the Australian wing for this organisation ?

Nothing (except creationism) pisses me off more than pure racism, bigotry and discrimination justified by deluded religious people.

Racism is bad, no matter what book you read.
I have a saying in life. 'Evil is Evil'.

This is just so tempting...

/poke

What do you mean ?

Are you telling me that these people dont exist ?

Or are you telling me i am wrong for being annoyed by racism and bigotry ?

I dont understand what you are getting at.

EDIT : On second thoughs, i think you are getting at my reference to creationism, so i shall elaborate on it a little bit.

I have no problems with creationism as a religious belief, i have a problem with creationism as a scientific theory.

people can believe what they want, but if they want to play the Science game, they have to play by the rules of science, no one has any right to change the rules of that. Not even the worlds greatest scientists

What if you're like me and apply science to your beliefs? Where does that leave you? I believe that science should focus on finding the truth, not describing reality in terms of only naturalistic explanations, that limits the mind. I have read a lot of your posts and I haven't seen much application of science to your beliefs.

And as far as science "limiting the mind", I don't see that. Maybe I've limited my mind, but I see science as having a ground set of rules and from there anyone is free to let their mind go. They just have to be able to apply those rules back to their theories so that their peers can replicate and validate their results.

But I guess you can follow your "unnaturalistic" explanations. I'm not sure how far that would get you. Did it get the ancients very far with their oracles and polytheistic beliefs? I'm sure they felt they were right too. But then those irritating rules of natural order began to tear apart their beliefs at the seams didn't it? I'm sure that bothered them just as much as you claim your "beliefs" to be factual. Which is something a scientist would never do with a theory. Especially since they are secure enough and have an open mind enough to admit that they are searching for a testable explanation to what is around us. Not just dreaming up some fluffy stories of unicorns and destructive punishment from the Godhead.

KeeperofKeb · May 2007

"discrimination against minorities such as African-Americans, women and interracial couples"

- this in my opinion is not existent in my beliefs "Christian beliefs" although it may be existent in other religions the christian majority does not adhere to these values agains minorities such as african-americans,women and interracial couples.

- People are inventing new ways to stop christians from preaching truth about the sin of homosexuality, we don't preach hate but we preach repentance. We're acknowledging to the world that homosexuality is a sin and an epidemic and those that preach it in a hateful manner aren't representing the true Gospel, it should be done in Love.

- You could turn the tables to those that are calling religous people bigots by saying that homosexuals are bigots to religous people, in fact there is more hate against religion imo than there is against homosexuals in the large picture of things. Great examples are homosexuals on the hollywood spotlight depicting burning churches and calling christians terrorists. Almost every homosexual that i have come in contact with has some sort of bitterness,anger or hate against christians that believe homosexuality is immoral and wrong. they just don't like it that its wrong they want to go ahead and keep believing that what they're doing is completely natural which it isn't but they decieve themselves into believing that even God created them that way or they were born that way.

- fact is, homosexuals are trying to find a way to shut the christians up cause they don't like it that we believe its wrong. In other words they want to take our freedom away. fact is, we have freedom of speech, we have freedom of religion how soon will it be we'll turn into another canada where pastors and preachers can't talk about homosexuality without being threatened to be thrown into jail for hate speech, its not that far away they've already taken our freedom of speech in the pulpit regarding political issues by threatening their 501-c3 status and IRS hammerdowns.

**So you see christians are getting the brunt of the blow from all directions we are getting persecuted more and more everyday from non-religous folk who want to do away with it, who think religion is just something we believed in to get by, but now that we have technology and we're more evolved we don't need it anymore. they took prayer out of our schools, kids can't wear christian t-shirts to some public schools, can't talk about it to other kids, get suspended for saying they don't believe in evolution but creationism. In almost every instance of entertainment christianity is scoffed at and barely acknowledged and respected but made fun of and has become the brunt of many dispicable acts of comedy. When it comes down to the nit and gritty true christians still love and a true christian preach love and kindness and that a God loves him and wants to know you, a God that loves you so much he gave his only son to die for you to take your place in line for the punishment of eternal death that was doomed to all mankind. Its a message of Love not bigotry, Homosexuality is wrong because Sin leads to death and destruction, we're basically telling people who are standing in front of the train of sin to move to save their lives simple as that.

KeeperofKeb

upallnight · May 2007

Originally posted by KeeperofKeb

"discrimination against minorities such as African-Americans, women and interracial couples"

   - this in my opinion is not existent in my beliefs "Christian beliefs" although it may be existent in other religions the christian majority does not adhere to these values agains minorities such as african-americans,women and interracial couples.
   - People are inventing new ways to stop christians from preaching truth about the sin of homosexuality, we don't preach hate but we preach repentance. We're acknowledging to the world that homosexuality is a sin and an epidemic and those that preach it in a hateful manner aren't representing the true Gospel, it should be done in Love.
    - You could turn the tables to those that are calling religous people bigots by saying that homosexuals are bigots to religous people, in fact there is more hate against religion imo than there is against homosexuals in the large picture of things. Great examples are homosexuals on the hollywood spotlight depicting burning churches and calling christians terrorists. Almost every homosexual that i have come in contact with has some sort of bitterness,anger or hate against christians that believe homosexuality is immoral and wrong. they just don't like it that its wrong they want to go ahead and keep believing that what they're doing is completely natural which it isn't but they decieve themselves into believing that even God created them that way or they were born that way.

     - fact is, homosexuals are trying to find a way to shut the christians up cause they don't like it that we believe its wrong. In other words they want to take our freedom away. fact is, we have freedom of speech, we have freedom of religion how soon will it be we'll turn into another canada where pastors and preachers can't talk about homosexuality without being threatened to be thrown into jail for hate speech, its not that far away they've already taken our freedom of speech in the pulpit regarding political issues by threatening their 501-c3 status and IRS hammerdowns.

**So you see christians are getting the brunt of the blow from all directions we are getting persecuted more and more everyday from non-religous folk who want to do away with it, who think religion is just something we believed in to get by, but now that we have technology and we're more evolved we don't need it anymore. they took prayer out of our schools, kids can't wear christian t-shirts to some public schools, can't talk about it to other kids, get suspended for saying they don't believe in evolution but creationism. In almost every instance of entertainment christianity is scoffed at and barely acknowledged and respected but made fun of and has become the brunt of many dispicable acts of comedy. When it comes down to the nit and gritty true christians still love and a true christian preach love and kindness and that a God loves him and wants to know you, a God that loves you so much he gave his only son to die for you to take your place in line for the punishment of eternal death that was doomed to all mankind. Its a message of Love not bigotry, Homosexuality is wrong because Sin leads to death and destruction, we're basically telling people who are standing in front of the train of sin to move to save their lives simple as that.

KeeperofKeb

That is about the most biased argument I've heard anyone make in a long time. Which is the reason an organization like this has sprung up. People recognize that you and your use of power needs to be kept in check.

We homosexuals don't want to tell you how to practice your religion. If we did, then we would be bigots. You are completely free to practice your religion and have your religious views till the world ends. Where the bigotry comes in is when you try to use government to push your religious beliefs onto us.

My church's interpretation of Christianity says that your interpretation is wrong. But I'm not going to use government to compel you to have your church marry us. My church already does that. Yet you use government to legitimize your version of Christianity by saying my interpretation is not and should not be recognized by the law. And when I ask for equal representation under law for my religious beliefs you say NO. And not only do you say no, but you refuse to relinquish that bigoted attitude or to make the whole issue a religious matter and not a state matter.

Now, who's practicing bigotry again???

Gameloading · May 2007

Originally posted by KeeperofKeb

"discrimination against minorities such as African-Americans, women and interracial couples"

   - this in my opinion is not existent in my beliefs "Christian beliefs" although it may be existent in other religions the christian majority does not adhere to these values agains minorities such as african-americans,women and interracial couples.
   - People are inventing new ways to stop christians from preaching truth about the sin of homosexuality, we don't preach hate but we preach repentance. We're acknowledging to the world that homosexuality is a sin and an epidemic and those that preach it in a hateful manner aren't representing the true Gospel, it should be done in Love.
    - You could turn the tables to those that are calling religous people bigots by saying that homosexuals are bigots to religous people, in fact there is more hate against religion imo than there is against homosexuals in the large picture of things. Great examples are homosexuals on the hollywood spotlight depicting burning churches and calling christians terrorists. Almost every homosexual that i have come in contact with has some sort of bitterness,anger or hate against christians that believe homosexuality is immoral and wrong. they just don't like it that its wrong they want to go ahead and keep believing that what they're doing is completely natural which it isn't but they decieve themselves into believing that even God created them that way or they were born that way.
Yes sir, it is completely Natural. Most, if not all studies come to the conclussion that homosexuality is NOT a choice. And do you find it weird that homosexuals have a bitterness against christians? Christians have been taking away the freedom of homosexuals for a long time now, And trying to tell other people that the sexual orientation they were born with is a choice, and a wrong one on top of it.Thinking it is a choice is pure and pure ignorance. Look at the state of homosexuals today, hated in many countries, even put to death. Try and say with a straigth face that is a choice. Its time you put the book of unicorns, giants, and men living inside a fish belly away and look at science, things that can be proven and disproven. I'd be more then happy to invite you to come over here and introduce you to homosexuals that are not born this way. Just say the word and I'll confront you with the truth from people are actually homosexual. Not some little priest in a church who doesn't have the slightest clue about science or homosexuality, I will confront you with people who talk out of experience. I will introduce you to people who have been hated, banned from their families and even banned from their homecountry. Afterwards I'm going to make you look those people into the eyes and just try and say that those people are lying.

     - fact is, homosexuals are trying to find a way to shut the christians up cause they don't like it that we believe its wrong. In other words they want to take our freedom away. fact is, we have freedom of speech, we have freedom of religion how soon will it be we'll turn into another canada where pastors and preachers can't talk about homosexuality without being threatened to be thrown into jail for hate speech, its not that far away they've already taken our freedom of speech in the pulpit regarding political issues by threatening their 501-c3 status and IRS hammerdowns.

You mean the same way that christians try to take away the right for homosexuals to marry or to adopt children? The church is rightfully kept quiet. saying that what other people are doing wrong over and over again, and then spreading incorrect information that its actually a choice should rightfully be forbidden

**So you see christians are getting the brunt of the blow from all directions we are getting persecuted more and more everyday from non-religous folk who want to do away with it, who think religion is just something we believed in to get by, but now that we have technology and we're more evolved we don't need it anymore. they took prayer out of our schools, kids can't wear christian t-shirts to some public schools, can't talk about it to other kids, get suspended for saying they don't believe in evolution but creationism. In almost every instance of entertainment christianity is scoffed at and barely acknowledged and respected but made fun of and has become the brunt of many dispicable acts of comedy. When it comes down to the nit and gritty true christians still love and a true christian preach love and kindness and that a God loves him and wants to know you, a God that loves you so much he gave his only son to die for you to take your place in line for the punishment of eternal death that was doomed to all mankind. Its a message of Love not bigotry, Homosexuality is wrong because Sin leads to death and destruction, we're basically telling people who are standing in front of the train of sin to move to save their lives simple as that.

oh you poor christians, trying to take science of schools, spreading false words of homosexuality,taking away people's freedom for what YOU believe, it must be tough isn't it?

Don't even bother trying to write a reply. Because everyone knows that your reply is going to be along the lines of this:

www.youtube.com/watch

KeeperofKeb

EggFtegg · May 2007

To be fair, KeeperofKeb has not advocated or supported any kind of state legislation which persecutes homosexuals in his post, which seems to be what he is being accused of. I don't know what his views are on such things, but there's nothing to suggest he is in favour of using state laws to enforce his beliefs on anyone.

So long as he applies the same rights of free speech to everyone, then however misguided you might think his views may be, he should have the right to his opinions and be able to express them.

On topic, I'm glad that such organisations exist. I hate it when people use Christianity to back up their own bigotted views. As I've said in previous threads, even if homosexuality is a sin, that is between that person and God. To my mind, the four most important points of the teachings of Jesus are God is your Dad, love God, love all people, and don't judge anyone else. If you are failing in any way at loving God and loving people, then you're in no position to judge anyway, because those are the things we need be most concerned about. I think people tend to be far more petty than God is when it comes to sin.

upallnight · May 2007

Originally posted by EggFtegg

To be fair, KeeperofKeb has not advocated or supported any kind of state legislation which persecutes homosexuals in his post, which seems to be what he is being accused of. I don't know what his views are on such things, but there's nothing to suggest he is in favour of using state laws to enforce his beliefs on anyone.

So long as he applies the same rights of free speech to everyone, then however misguided you might think his views may be, he should have the right to his opinions and be able to express them.

On topic, I'm glad that such organisations exist. I hate it when people use Christianity to back up their own bigotted views. As I've said in previous threads, even if homosexuality is a sin, that is between that person and God. To my mind, the four most important points of the teachings of Jesus are God is your Dad, love God, love all people, and don't judge anyone else. If you are failing in any way at loving God and loving people, then you're in no position to judge anyway, because those are the things we need be most concerned about. I think people tend to be far more petty than God is when it comes to sin.

Well, actually if you read what he says and look at it closely you will see that he is talking about his support for state legislation which persecutes homosexuals. Here's my point.

No homosexual has said that the state should go into churches and force them to perform gay marriages. What we have asked for is equal representation under the law. It's not our goal to change other churches at all. To attempt to do so would be crazy, not to mention wrong. We have churches that we attend that interpret the Bible and teach us that God loves us just the way we are. He and his churches can interpret it how they want as long as they leave us alone.

So, with that in mind, then what else would he be talking about other than him wanting to maintain the status quo of unfairness in state recognition. We're not "attacking" him in any other way.

And if that's not what he's talking about when he says that we are attacking religion, then what is he talking about?

reavo · May 2007

Originally posted by KeeperofKeb

Homosexuality is wrong because Sin leads to death and destruction, we're basically telling people who are standing in front of the train of sin to move to save their lives simple as that.

KeeperofKeb

You've just taken a group of people, looked at them and the way they were born, and called their capacity for love a sin. Not only that but your only expectation for them and their lives is one of loneliness! How do you think homosexuals are going to feel towards you?

I don't disagree with an organization like this existing at all. I'm glad they are there to put forth a different interpretation of Christianity for homosexuals and others who have friends and/or family who are gay. Perhaps you should look at their interpretation and think about maybe it could be the correct one.

I've read opposing arguments and found that the verses people use against homosexuals are interpreted a different way when they are applied to heterosexuals. For example, if the Bible says that rape is wrong nobody seems to interpret that as meaning heterosexuality is wrong. Yet correlations like that are freely made when it comes to gays. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that a faithful, loving, monogamous gay relationship is wrong. It mentions disrespectful and irresponsible gay sex as wrong, but that's no more a correlation than the rape example I gave you.

You say that the gay lifestyle is one of death and destruction. I say that living in a world where you are wrongly accused of sin and treated poorly by society is one that could bring anyone down and create the same results you account to being born gay.

Jesus taught love and acceptance. If we kept that lesson in mind when we see a gay person they would feel they had a place and belonged in the world they were born into. And when that self-respect grows people tend to make decisions that are positive for themselves and others.

Nobody met and experienced Jesus to walk away feeling a sense of worthlessness or guilt. Why not learn from his example?

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