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Stealth can add strategy in WAR
tenha
Member Posts: 8
I believe stealth can add a lot of game depths and strategy. But it has to be done right. What i mean by that is:
1. There is never going to be a rogue with one "phat l33t" button such "vanish". Stealth would be govern by something such thing as "concealment value".
2. Where. Stealth means you blend with your envirovments. You need within some elements to be able to conceal. Lets just say envirovments have "concealment" value. So hiding in woods will have concealment value of +50 and hiding in the middle of desert will have value of 0. Hiding in the middle of stone cobbled road will have "concealment value" of -100.
3. Where. Well lit area. Try to hide right under a torch would just give a "concealment value" of -100. So its just a futile attempt since will likely reveal yourself almost immediately.
4. When. Time of day. Hiding in the middle of the day will have "concealment value" of -50 and when you try to hide at night will give you concealment value of +40.
5. When. Time produced by sets of eye. What that mean is when someone looking at your direction, lets just say for 5 minutes. He will notice a lot of unatural things (including stealthers) rather than someone who just pass that area without care about it whatsoever. For each second passing by when a set of eye looking at the stealthers direction, it will -1 the stealther's "concealment value".
6. Who. People watching. When theres 10 sets of eye looking at your direction, your chance of getting detected is that sooo much higher than someone just passing thru an area where you hide at. For each additional set of eye lookign at the stealthers direction will -10 stealther's "concealment value".
7. What. The stealthers action. When a stealther ran, he will reveal his naked butt within 50 yards eventhough hes inside thick wooded area. Running will have "concealment value" of -70 while standing still -10 and crounching +20
8. What. The stealther going to take a chance getting his arse exposed so much higher when hes doing special thing such as lock picking someone's door rather than he just lie and wait and observe enemy movements. For example, lock picking would give -25 on his "concealment value"
9. When a stealther goes "stealth mode" Things such as IM are turned off. So he cant just sits there and talk to his group 100 miles away from his current possition. Or he can.. But it will drop his "concealment value" by -25.
To Make all these fair, the art of hiding only open to "stealth" classes. And it is completely different than magic. For example, If a mage can cast "invisibility" that simply hide him from plain sight, another magic class who has "see invisibility" will reveal the "invisible" mage from 1000 yards. But that mage will NOT be able to see that "stealth" class who been hiding 10 feet away behind him among tall grass and rocks.
For the sakes of "Stealth" class. Theres going to be a lot of utility they can offer such locked doors to be picked, sabotaging war machines, chameleon (he can appear to other faction as one of theirs, but govern by the same "concealment system" that govern the hiding skill), etc. For the sakes of game balance, "stealther" class wont be able to lockpick front gate of a castle or battle hardened fort.. obiously.. But he can sneak his way in if he can overcome the obstacles (meaning he has the patience and skill to hide himself from many prying eyes and unfriendly envirovment inside a castle/fort) and sabotage the gate machanism so that the reinforcement pouring out of the castle gate will have something like "3 minute delay" coming in and out of that castle/fort.
For other classes sakes, a stealther would have so much more hard time if not impossible to one shot one kill a mage who already cast some protection spell such as "diamond skin" and in his alert prime time. Same goes it would meant a sure death if a stealther trying to kill well armored warrior without a speck of wound on his body. (It would be an act of stupidity trying to face against battle hardened, plate armored, axe wielding, short tempered orc warrior with your kitchen knives and leather armor right?)
Well thats my 2cp. But if Mythic dont agree with me, so let it be. At least i already gave the fruit of my thoughts for free and hoped for the best. What you all think?
Comments
Proud Member of Mongbat
Is it because you like being able to go AFK somewhere in a battleground, or simply that you want to pick your fights at your terms?
My 2cp.
Obiously, you will likely getting yourself killed if you "hide" and afk. Since it will reveal your arse within seconds when someone from the other faction looked at your direction from 5 feet away.
Even now in these modern times you have snipers (equivalent of archers in ancient times) and recons (scouts in ancient times). Besides, i did not say something like "i wantz stealth so i can stabz and kill your azz phat lewt! Bang! you suxxor!". What i was saying is skill "hiding" could add a lot on strategy. If you read what i said above, even when the stealther IM someone that would decrease his "concealment value" immediately (if someone IM him, that would give the same effect). Just as stealth bombers have to go into "silent mode" when hes running bombing mission. Just as ARMY recon guys will turn off their radios when they inside enemy territory.
Please dont just read the tittle and flare up in anger just because you think i am against your beloved game. On the contrary, since i CARE about this game being better.. i open my mouth about something that i think could better the game. I wont do so if i dont CARE about this game.
If this game was based on modern times, they'd be making charecters with guns instead of swords.
Also, a snipers role isn't to make a fight fair or balanced, it's to kill instantly without ever being detected.
So that comparison is just dumb when talking about a game where all sides have to be balanced.
WAR doesn't need stealth...dont need it ending up like DAoC where the game is balanced around 5 different things; large scale rvr, group rvr, solo visible rvr, solo stealth rvr, group stealth rvr.
Yes, i never saying something about someone able to stand in the middle of the road without getting noticed. So i am very much against that part. Just as i said sets of eyes able to strip "concealment value" from a stealther real fast, that itself will force stealthers to play smart, constantly crounch moving from one to another location, etc.
When someone claim it was "stupid" on my part to compare archer with snipers.. I think you, sir.. must bear that tittle. Archers able to hurt someone with their longbows, for example, from 250-300 yards and able to pierce plate armors. When all other fighters on his time have to close in around arms reach to actually do something. Same as in these modern days, most people engage their targets between 0-250 yards with their M4 Carbines or AK47. While snipers with their 0.50 Barrets able to pierce engine blocks, T-40 russian tanks armor and shoot someone from well over a mile.
Tell me, was my comparison not correct?
Well, points 1-9 sound like a very interesting way of implementing a more balanced stealth class; however, they also sound like they would produce a ton of lag and bugs.
*
The concept of stealth has always left me confused. I've even played many stealth classes myself as an exploration of this concept. But the question always remains, "Why do i want to turn invisable?" When you think about the question honestly and simply, you are left with one and only one answer: "To gain an advantage." The answer has always left me without a conclusion and sets up the rhetorical question: "Can there be Balance when One class type has an advantage over everyone else?"
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No, you would not be correct at all. Archers didn't use a single arrow to take out a captain. Archers worked in massed units to overwhelm enemies defenses with large amount of piercing capabilities to to the sheer loss of momentum the arrow looses over the course of its arch. To best cause harm with most potency, solo archers need to be within 20-40 yards of the target, this allows for minimal loss of force, but at the cost of being extremely close to the prey.
That is why bow and arrow hunters would laugh at you if you told them to take down a deer from 250-300 yards. Even modern crossbows are based around 60-150 meters for maximum capabilities due to the loss of force pushing the bolt.
All the while, a bullet has a much greater punching power, and thus can be fired from a much larger distance, and due to the lighter weight in general compared to an arrow or bolt, the initial blast tends to carry the shot further, and the type of bullet denotes which targets are going to be chosen.
Another difference between archer units and snipers, Archers tended to be large static units that released as many shots as possible to weaken foes before the melee began, most generals did not put faith in arrows and bolts winning wars for them(there were exceptions, but general rule of thumb during that timeframe was that arrows were there to wound and weaken the foe, while the melee was there to push the final thrust). Snipers on the other hand tend to work solo, and after a shot, they move to a different location as to not be located by the muzzle flare off the end of the rifle(There are times when this is the case, but in most situations snipers don't remain in the same locations for more then a couple shots at most). Snipers pick a target, take a shot or two then move, if they continue to take shots from a single locations, scouts and other soldiers begin to zero in on snipers locations and move to counter him.
You're still wrong, and you still bear your self-assigned title.
Besides all the other holes people have already put in your flawed argument, no medieval archer could snipe a single target from the maximum range of their bow, it's just impossible.
Apperently all you want is to be able to kill people from long range, then stealth up and run off....exactly the reason stealth shouldn't be in this game.
Just to throw a rather large spanner in the works.
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay did indeed have rules for concealment and stealth:
Concealment: Rural
Concealment: Urban
Silent Move Rural
Silent Move Urban
Disguise
These rules used factors such as environment, time of day, player's skill, monster's skill, background noise, distractions, camoflage and of course the games master's discretion. There were a ton of factors used to work out the chances of detection while "stealthed" in WFRP; factors that I'm not sure would work well in an MMO. Of course, the above skills were tailored for Theif type professions, who had other rules such as Scale Sheer Surface, Sixth Sense, Night Vision, Set Trap, Spot Traps, Prepare Poisons, Shadowing, and Secret Languages - All the best hallmarks of Theifs and Assassins.
I believe the decision to not include stealth as part of WAR rests entirely with Mythic. And I completely agree with that decision, because of the type of game WAR will be. I'd love to see the full online implementation of old WFRP rules in a game, but WAR isn't going to be it.
1) thanks to the OP for a nice laugh, the idea of a sneaky guy getting malus to concealment for receiving /tell gave me this nice mental image of the stealthing guy magic "something" suddenly doing the nokia tune and saying aloud "you have ..1 .. new message" and the thief cursing in turkish as the guards around come to beat his ass
2) true, the warhammer fantasy roleplay has rules for stealth, but no stealther are part of the regular armies beside Dark elves and skaven. you might have noticed ALL the classes chosen for WAR are part of the army lists from WHFB, I believe it is not coincidence. (ok, i'm not sure about squig herders though)
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Looks like you going to have to make your own stealth.
That means use the environment. Hide in bushes, behind trees, use hills, buidlings and other structures. Stealth as it should be - player innovation. Not simply *poof* your gone
I dont mind 'inviso' in games.
I just think several games , back in 1998-2002 took the AD&D ideas for "Hiding in SHadows" and "Invisibility" to an extreme that doesnt even resemble what they really are, leaving us with many game companies following suit and pissin off the masses. eventually.
"Stealth" , imo, is something for a Sci-Fi/Planetside genre. Stealth is something , to me, that is powered or artificially implemented to render you totally 'unseen' ,technologically.
"Hiding in Shadows" or "Concealment" , as laid forth in all the D&D and AD&D rulesets for many many years (the tabletop games these morpg are supposedly based on, heh..based..ya right)...., is just that...Hiding...and is very effective but does NOT render someone fully invisible but enables a player to get in close or lay-in-wait for a passerby...hoping the unwary traveller doesnt suspect a thing....note i say: hopes.<-----balanced, imo. He can still be 'seen'....kind of.
As the O.P. had indeed said...how the heck can a class 'hide'...or <ahem> 'stealth' if the surroundings are devoid of the flora or fuana to 'conceal' within. A Scout in Daoc hiding in the middle of a desert...frikken funniest stuff evar when you think about it....very corny indeed! mheh.
ANyone remember the SNiper in DeltaForce and his gilly suit? Imagine trying to play a sniper back in the DeltaForce days without the suit. hehe. death came quick. But to me, that makes sense and seems very balanced.
This brings me to the point of "Invisibilty"....which always has been(in the old tabletop rulesets)...simply the ability to render oneself FULLY invisible to everything....magically....but once you take a hostile action...the "SPELL" or SPELL-like enchantment of invisibilty will drop from your character revealing you in full. (ok....for you Advanced D&D players: I am not including "Greater or Improved Inviso" Spell, for the sake of the post
"Invisibilty"..... and "Stealth" seemed to have 'crossed' paths when FPS's and Morpg's collided....and to top if off 'Concealment" and "Hiding in Shadows" was fully disposed of by our beloved 30-40year old AD&D playing dev's....and you all KNOW they still have callous on their hands from all those d20 rolls in college!
"Hiding" and "Concealment" was only implemented correctly, imo...and ONLY present in ONE game i know of. Thief1,Thief2 and Thief3<-------THAT is TRUE "Hiding". To me...that is fun,scary and a challenge. Imagine playing like that...in a online game:)!
I agree with the O.P. to a certain point. There is no reason why ( god i hate using this term now b/c online games have meshed too many things together)...a <ahem> "Stealther-type" can not be implemented in ANY game and still not be a travesty that it has become out of control in todays gaming.
^^ i think i worded that wrong. mheh.
ANyway.....Stealth is Stealth, Concealment and Hiding is Concealment and Hiding...and Invisibilty is Invisibilty
It should never have been tampered with in gaming back in the late80's early 90's.....but it has been and by the time EQ/Daoc and the like came out..it was too late. We ALL know the developers played many many an hour of tabletop dice games and know full-well the difference between all 3. The almighty dollar is more powerful though....who would really play a 'ahem' stealther if you had to actually 'play' one in the traditional sense.....prolly no-one.
I guess , STealth was too luring for new subs....i can see the business aspect of it..but still....you end up with a pile of crap to mull through for no reason and end up pissing off many players in the meantime......add that to the fact that most players pick stealther class in games like daoc to indeed 'choose' and pick their fights , I dont think a person levels up a 'stealther' type just to AFK in a BG, mheh...thats just silly...although its nice to be able to do such:)
Also, In games like Daoc......[this game is the PRIME example of how perverted a game can become with stealth implemented within it, incorrectly.].......stealth has become so bad , that basically,(after ToA) a person that makes a stealther...has basically...and effectively...removed himself from the actual game and now will play Daoc on a much much smaller scale. he will play mainly and exclusively with other stealthers running back and forth over a Bridge killing each other....and each other only.....when this has nothing to do with the actual game then *itch about dying if he gets jumped by more than 1 other opponent.
just silly. This dead stealther wants the ability to be invis...so he can 'jump' someone and get a full advantage over someone else and win...but when someone does it to him....its wrong?..lol
Stealth has helped seperate players in many games that are m-u-l-t-i-p-l-a-y-e-r and it wont get any better, or any less silly.
why?
b/c it is 'done' fully wrong.....until a game comes out that addresses the simple problem of seperating "Concealment/Hiding", "Stealth", and "Invisibility"....we'll still be stuck with 1-2 years of playing a morpg and preoccupied with discovering everything new that by the time players get to realize..."God stealth is lame" or "This game sucks" ..its too late................players that play the class will be pissed off at their class and other players being pissed off at them - when neither of them is at fault.
OP...you make some great points in the first post. Many of your ideas seem to reek of old AD&D style of play...where the games' longevity and the players fun.....are Paramount.
Wonder how AD&D would have turned out back-in-the-day if Gary Gygax and Ed Greenwood..heck even Tracy and Margeret ...were to have charged a monthly fee to play
hehehe
would we have Stealthing SPellJammers!???
yup...mheh,......I hope one game gets it 'right'.....meaning , a Morpg.
Anyone one know of a Morpg..that actually uses "Hiding" and "Invisibilty" or "Concealment" the way the Theif games do?
Well....one that is popular? as i mentioend before...i surmize if there was..the game wouldnt be popular and would not sell, hence why we have the perverted usage of 'hiding/stealth/inviso' nowadays.
if so..please post link to the game website:)!
(sorry for the choppy post...Beer and Breakfast dont mix well)
/hic
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I mean.....beer and breakfast go perfect together
/hic
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naw..Guiness is too strong and full bodied for the suttle flavors of icecream
I suggest Guiness with Liverwurst and Jelly sandwiches.
awes
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do your research Stealth will not be added to this game in any shape or form:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcMRSLP6tKc
Go create your own MMO if you want stealth that is all there is to it lol
Did someone mention the fact that the OP's suggestions would take ridiculous amounts of time, computer power, and energy to produce?
This about how many extra calculations there would be on any given battlefield (because there are always hundreds of little pansy stealthers in any game).
Okay idea, impossible to make it work.
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He said to me, "On your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that going for me, which is nice.
edit- bah nevermind read the entire post now I'm gonna stick wit my original post you (the original poster) did not watch any films where they said no invisible classes especially not Assassin I cant even tell from your post if you're familiar with the IP or watch the Developer interviews.
Thinking about this more as the thread develops. We know a few things..
1) Total vanishing will not be in the game. Devs have stated that plainly as soon as the question is uttered.
2) There are some skills of concealment in Warhammer as the OP has stated
3) Players do like a "stealth" profession, would make sense to try to offer soemthing.
How can a design team come up with a way to offer stealth or concealment to players without unbalancing the game? What if a concealment character had unique stances like lay down and crawl? Maybe when they go into these stances their name overhead fades?
Another stance could allow a better positioning with hiding behind rocks, trees, etc.
Allow for crawling movement, prone attacks, climb a tree, etc.
The point being, give the stealth lovers a bone, but don't wreak havoc with the whole vanishing in thin air stuff. It can provide situational advantages but advantages that require player thought and strategy.
Fact is, Mythic said "No Stealth" so that's that. I think we should start looking at what we "do have" and stop dreaming about what we wish they "would have" put in, since Stealth isn't going to be in the game.
Note: If stealth all of a sudden pops up then I was wrong, and I probably won't be playing the game.
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I live to fight, and fight to live.