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Why do you think WoW's PvP sucks?
vajuras
Member Posts: 2,860
Noticed a lot of people say they do not like WoW's PvP just wanted to grab some data here. Is it due to rogues stunlock + backstab + vanish? Battlegrounds ruined world pvp? No impact? All of these things? Why do you think WoW pvp sucked or do you think its good?
Me personally I hated how a rogue could just vanish into thin air and even after we called in Warlocks, etc we still couldn't find them. I could handle them just fine with my PvP talent tree spec. I liked the Battlegrounds but what burned me out was the loot whoring from raids - I hated raiding (maybe burning crusade resolved this). plus, at the time, honor system was a huge grind but I saw they fixed that in burning.
anyway this isn't a troll just interested in figuring out what people hated bout WoW and how can the new MMOs improve?
Comments
WoW pvp sucks because it is very predictable. There are not enough moves and counter moves to make the fights complex. If hunter does move A I know to do move B. If it is countered with move C, I may be screwed but I may also have a counter to the counter.
That might be confusing. My point is that WoW pvp is like this. If your fighting someone who sucks he may not fight you like his class should, but if your fighting someone good who knows there class, that fight will be near identical to every other fight with a person in that same class who knows it well.
Another thing that sucks in WoW PvP is that everyone has only gear on their mind in that game. PvP in WoW for many has nothing to do with the fun of pvping. That is why BGs have become so dominant. The game being based around gear is a whole other problem but it does reflect on to pvp.
There are a few more things I will mention later.
And I PvP for the fun of it! It's easy for me to lose both my saturday and sunday doing exclusively warsong gulch. I'm not grinding honor, I just love CTF games.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
playing: darkfall
waiting: earthrise
WOW BG's when they were first introduced had that terrible honor ranking system which meant everyone's activities were focused on extracting the most honor in the least time. The Pvp became unimportant really. I recall that people would yell at you for defending in AV, or just pvp killing instead of trying to capture the flags in WG. AB was one of the better ones, except I played on alliance and we seemed to be totally unable to accomplish anything there....so people would immediately start dropping within minutes of arrival and we'd get 5 capped and lose the match almost instantly.
I know TBC changed the honor system, so I don't know if people still try to get through the fights as quickly, but truthfully, theres no real objective to the battles so I'm not sure how much it would have helped. The arena system sounds more interesting...but still, the fights are all in the same place....in Dark age even when most Pvp was in Emain, you could battle at mile gates, in front of portal keeps, out at one of the center keeps or in the open. With the New Frontier expansion the battles got shifted to towers and many other places (almost too many other places)
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List of SOE lies
About the combat system regarding to the distance and error messages well thoose are in alot of games, Lineage 2 has it own "range" flaw to some degree where you aint able to stab sometimes because people are trying to move away from you, you use the mana for the stab but nothing happens even tho its a 90% chance the stab is gonna land because they turn the back to you.
List of SOE lies
I quit for several reasons but a main one was that they made PvP stale and boring, and even Arena wasn't exciting. They built the game to appeal more and more to hardcore players rather than casual players, which was a promise they wouldn't do.
Oh well, the first year was fun, the second year I was burnt out, but just didnt have it in me to quit, and I tell you, I don't regret it.
Now it may be that some people here would prefer a different sort of game entirely, perhaps one which centers around factional PvP (lineage, DaoC), or high risk PvP (EvE). That's fine. They are good games too, but the way I see it they are in a different genre to WoW with different design goals. Just because you want something else from a game doesn't mean that WoW is bad.
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So, instead of one map per type it would have been 5 or 6.
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
edit: typo
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battlegrounds are basically just counter strike or gears of war style play. an MMO needs a death penalty to be considered persistant. So I guess wow pvp is lame because it does not factor into the persistant world design.
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if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it.
Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro
if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end
Battlegrounds are hardly healthy PvP.
Try Halaa, my good friend.
I don't find that the PvP in WoW sucks, what I think sucks are the people out there that feel that to have a good time they have to be able to steal something from someone else ie: Looting the vanquished of items. There is a fundamental flaw in the character of an individual that feels the need to deprive something from someone else just to have fun. If you're in the park and knock out a passerby and then take his wallet what does that make you? To put the same kind of activity into a game setting is wrong thinking and caters to the opponents of online gaming.
I find it appalling that other games are even considering the ability to loot items from other characters, this is simply theft. Personally I would never play a game that condones this type of activity and I think a vast majority of the gaming community wouldn't as well which is why you will never see it in WoW.
FINALLY A TOPIC TO WHERE I CAN PUT ALL MY WOW PVP HATE.
lets get things started at the appearance. to me pvp in wow just looks like a bunch of idiots runnin and jumpin around swinging their weapons at random times. it is unrealistc and stupid in my opinion. people run around each other jumpin like rabbits doesnt look like a cool fightin system. plus by the time you swing your weapon your not even close to your target which makes no sense.
there is no stradegy or tactics you use in wow pvp. well i guess people in the same guild usin teamspeak or somthin uses them i guess but im talkin most of the time. every time i try to pump up my teammates or try to get everyone on the same page they all get pissed off at me. one guy told me to die of cancer. now how are you suppose to work together as a team if you get annoyed of people who try help you and want to win? whats really suprisin is that this was on a pvp server. this makes no sense since you think that people on a pvp server likes to pvp otherwise they would be another server.
the battles are pretty much decided when they started. if one group has these twinks people call them 9 times out of 10 they will win. if one group has alot of people who are usin teamspeak they probably will win. if one group has all high lvls and the other have lower ones the ones with the high lvls will probably win. now why even bother playin if you know you dont even stand a chance? where is the fun in that where you know whos going to win at the start?
now i have made some suggestions to this game and put them into a topic i created in the suggestion part of the wow forum on this site. its called suggestions to wow or somthin like that. i think that if they actually do these suggestions the wow pvp will actually be fun. and fun pvp makes a mmo good.
Lineage 2 has millions of players if im not mistaken, EvE is popular, EQ2, Starport, etc
It's referred to as risk vs reward. In these types of games, they are rewarding players for taking on a 'risk'. For instance, in persistant games where you own assets (like a colony or something), other players can attempt to break your defenses and take control of the terriority. It costs them money if they fail- which is only fair because they are costing you money when they blow up your turrets, etc. Thus, the defender gets rewarded with spoils or the attacker gets rewarded if he succeeds. Without consequences death doesnt have much meaning. personally I don't like timesinks like Debt but other consequences can be fun in the right context. Don't get me wrong not saying we need harsh consequences to have fun but I am saying risk vs reward has its place in games that are built for it
Public BGs do not matter. Back in the day, you could roll WSG all day long with a group of 10 people. If you wanted to get honor quickly, you could do it that way. If you were a casual gamer, you could still pvp alone or with a few friends, and still have a decent time.
I'm going to focus on the arena system since that obviously is being focused on by blizzard with their tournaments and such.
There are classes that are absolutely and completely overpowering in the arena system. A druid that can take someone completely out of the game with cyclone spam, bear charge, bash and rinsing and repeating this endlessly in a 2v2, is completely ridiculous. THis is just one example. How about two rogues in 2v2 ? You sap a player, focus on the other one, keeping them completely stun-locked since there are two rogues there. Blind the other guy that was previously sapped. Continue locking the other player out, and then the second rogue blinds that guy who was previously sapped and blinded again. BUT O MAN THE BLIND WILL ONLY LAST A MAX OF WHAT 6 or 8 seconds this time. I forget because I haven't played in a bit. Deminishing returns saved the day there. Wait? No they didn't. The game is just completely unbalanced. People should not be able to be taken completely out of the game. If they are stunned, that is one thing. If they are poly'd that's another. But someone should not be taken out of the game by repeated forms of mass crowd control. It's just pointless.
Before you flame me, I know that there are various ways to break out of these types of crowd control, but you will get put right back into it. As a holy/disc priest, or a disc/holy priest, if you are counterspelled in a 2v2 you are basically worthless for the next 8 seconds (with the new patch). You can run up and fear as long as the opposing players are not UD or have a fearward (which is easily countered with a dispel spam) or have deathwish up or their pvp trinket or w/e other way of breaking fear. The fear could also be dispelled. You can lend some type of hand in damage in 2v2, but half the time, you need to heal because your partner is going to die or you are. Either way, you become very close to useless. Now , the wise blizzard devs decided the previous lock os schools of magic through counterspell was far too long since it was set at 10 seconds, so they lowered it to 8. However, they reduced the cooldown on counterspell by 6 seconds. I mean.... they basically just buffed the ability.... mages gained a +4 seconds on locking out someone's spells. Some of you may be thinking 8 seconds isn't that long, but I've seen many people die in 3-4 or close to being one shot.
The repeated nerfs to classes that need to be buffed is another issue. The warrior was drastically nerfed right before TBC. The nerf was understandable, since fury warriors were able to out dps anyone on a raid besides a mage that was lucky on the rolling ignites from other mages. In either case, it took multiple players to get those high numbers and they worked as a team to get them. That was nerf'd and it needed to be because of the amazing damage it did. Warriors however were capable of dishing out tons of damage. The nerf drastically destroyed their rage generation. There have been repeated nerfs, in the recent patches that keep killing the warriors ability to damage. My question is, where is the nerf to the ice mages, who could icelance icebolt combo with shatter and do enormous amounts of dmg. Where is the nerf for the shaman who can buff his entire group with an amazing ability, heal very well, and blast you for 4.6k a second later with a nature based attack. The ranged spell interrupt is nifty too. Along with being able to fire off another high dmg spell immediately after based on a talent. Obviously that shaman was elementalist, but the paladin faces the same problems as the priest above. A dps-adin can do some dmg, greatly increased since TBC, but they still face the same problem as the priest. They always shined as defenisve healers. If they get counter-spelled or stunlocked, their partner is dead, or they are. Mass dispel knocks down their capabilties to be what they always have been for a very long time.
WORLD PVP WAS NOT KILLED BY THE BATTLEGROUNDS. WORLD PVP WAS KILLED WHEN THEY DECIDED THAT SOMEONE WOULD ONLY BE WORTH AROUND 15 HONOR. THEY KILLED IT WHEN THEY REDID THE HONOR SYSTEM FOR CASUAL PLAYERS.
These are just some of the problems with WoW PVP. I wonder to myself, do the people that make these balance changes play the game, or do they just read the forums of all the cry babies that say my mage doesn't do enough damage!
I'm not a noob, i've been playing since closed beta of WoW. I've had almost a 60 of every class, and I've put a ton of time into this game. I've had 4 lvl 70's, and I've been through 75% of the end game raiding content they have available now. Clearing through kara and gruul's when it was still difficult. Clearing past Tidewalker in SS and lost interest. I also lvl'd to 70 shortly after the game came out - 4 and a half days after the expansion was released.
There are many things wrong with this game, and it's kind of pathetic.
The bigest problem I had with PvP in WoW is the end game PvP. I actually loved twinkgrounds 19 and 29 BGs because they were the only ones that were truly balenced because their were so many twinks, everyone had comparable gear. What I hated was the Itemization of the end game BGs If you weren't a raider you were screwed period, that was just the way it was. Yeah skill can keep you in the fight but if your in PvP blues, and you run into a raider your in trouble. BC didn't really "fix it" as much as pop on a new coat of paint. Can't wait for Fury, AoC, and WAR to see how they approach it.
As for the WoW pvp, I like it...but I wish it was more like DAOC pvp...but I don't find WoW PvP bad at all. So far its really good.
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WoW is balanced around PvE raiding. For instance, they recently nerfed the coefficient for +dmg on frostbolt and fireball. The reason is that those two spells do too much damage in raids. In a typical raid you stand still chain casting those spells. Of course, in PvP standing still and casting spells with such long casting times is hard to do. Your supposed to be rewarded for taking that risk with a high damage spell. So PvE balance trumps PvP balance.
That's just a small example. There are plenty of posts on the wow forums that show certain classes are just plain better at the arena then others (statistically speaking looking at top teams). Also, all top teams have nearly the exact same classes.
2) You Gotta PvE to PvP
In order to stay ahead in PvP you need to PvE raid for gear. This got lessened a little bit in the expo, but with the recent buffs to raid gear and the lack of healer PvP gear I bet the gap returns by Hyjal.
3) Emphasis on CC
I don't mind roots and snares nearly as much as I dislike CC that makes you lose control of your character. Getting DPSed 100% to 0% while feared and being unable to react is annoying.
4) Nothing fresh, one new BG in like a year
5) No siege or housing or other "meaningful" pvp
Class B is the warrior. As arms he can hit fairly hard. The highest my MS ever hit for was around 3.6k. They repeatedly nerf the ability of this class to do dmg when others are far superior.
Class C: Everything else.
Class B can kill Class A, I'm not talking about stupid 1v1's where the paladin will outlast the warrior, or the priest will dot the warrior and start to mc him, if he interrupts it, he heals himself.
Class C can own the others.
Now I know it is possible for a warrior to combat the other classes and win, and same for the priest and pally. This is a generalization.
The warrior can do a great amount of dmg.... but can be crowd controlled repeatedly and endlessly making him useless. Even with a dispel spam on him, it can be futile, because you ultimately have to care for yourself as well. The warrior will be cc'd.
PVE is a joke. The first 25 man encounter was ridiculously scaled. Even though the execution of the pull is great, when your tank can be killed with in 2 hits that come literally abck to back with in 2 seconds, the content is questionable. Our tank was as best geared as he could be before going in there, lacking only the t4 helm because it never fell. I'm not saying we did not get through, but i'm saying a game has poor mechanics when a tank can be 2 shot at such a level in the game. You have to hope his, I believe it is called arcing smash did not hit at the same time his regular auto attacks did.