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raiding
ronan32
Member Posts: 1,418
i played wow for two years and never once have i done a raid...it just doesnt interest me to raid the same dungeon 10 times to get a piece of armour or take instructions from brat guild leaders who take all the loot...i was just wondering are there any bright sparks at blizzard that might add content to the game that isnt raiding.....every new major update they have added raids..isnt there enough of them already?...why not add something else to the game so that players are not forced to raid till their eyes bleed....whats the next expansion going to have..lvl 80 and a new raid instance.....its getting a bit boring to say the least.
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Sure, they throw the casual players a bone, such as PvP arenas or tokens for Heroics...but the end game raid is the ultimate game play in WOW..and I wouldn't expect that to change much.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I believe they did with BC. They tested it out with AQ20 and ZG and realized it was successful. So when they released BC, they got rid of 40 man raids and added 25 and 10 man raids.
They are not looking at it as Raiding vs Non-raiding. They have to put time sinks in the game or they will lose thier subscribers. Thier goal is to get as many people as possible to buy into the time sink that the game is centered around, and thats raiding. So BC added more raids, and made it easier for the casual player to get into one.
Also, a hint for you...Guild leaders donot take all the loot. If they do, they wont be a guild leader for long.
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Several posts/threads on the European WoW forum claims that betwen 1 and 3% of the players raids frequently, and that less than 1% can be considered hardcore.
I have absolutely no idea wheater this is true or not. But I do know several WoW players, and none of them raids.
I was doing some raids pre-TBC and I really hated it. Not because of the raid as content, but because of the players. Whenever a newbie raider joined, everything that went wrong was always her/his/their fault, because the selfproclaimed allmighty gods of raiding simply wasn't able to do any mistakes... I've been, more than once, blaimed for bad pulls when I had nothing to do with it, and the creativity of the "hardcores" in putting the blame on others, was really impressive..
I understand people want free loot and all, but come on they added in new crafting recipes that compare to some loot. You can't get the mats and have someone make it? I mean really is it that hard to go out and do something? Hell, just go play a fps since everyone is equal in those. Wait SKILL plays a factor. Owell guess all hope is lost.
I understand people want free loot and all, but come on they added in new crafting recipes that compare to some loot. You can't get the mats and have someone make it? I mean really is it that hard to go out and do something? Hell, just go play a fps since everyone is equal in those. Wait SKILL plays a factor. Owell guess all hope is lost. i dunno what your point is but i play a game to have fun...i have a full time job i dont want another job especially in a game....i dunno what you mean by is it that hard to go out and do something, i dont like crafting so why would i do it?
...pvp requires skill when your in greens fighting players in blues and purples, trust me....its not the fact either if raiding is hard or easy...i dont raid because i dont want to be in an instance for 4 or 5 hours and then wonder where my day went.....i dont want free loot i just want to be able to get items in fun and challenging ways thats not raiding....
what do you mean by people like me? what a normal sane person who thinks raiding for 1% chance of getting a drop in an instance is not fun..please tell me what is in the expansion for a person that does like raiding..am i mistaken or have they added another raid instance recently..yes they have..the black temple.....isnt there enough raids already?
It is funny how little considerations they give on the long term hurting of their franchises and name as a company. Raiding is a short-term to medium-term solution, in the long road it is disastrous as EQ clearly displays with the state of the customers toward the company, SoE should be the most popular MMO company with EQ and a few other titles...and they are not even 3rd.
Blizzard is hurting their fanbase with this raiding, permanently. It took them decades to build this reputation that in less then 5 years of WoWification is eroded to a fraction of what it was.
Raiding kills grouping. Raiding kills a franchise.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
It is funny how little considerations they give on the long term hurting of their franchises and name as a company. Raiding is a short-term to medium-term solution, in the long road it is disastrous as EQ clearly displays with the state of the customers toward the company, SoE should be the most popular MMO company with EQ and a few other titles...and they are not even 3rd.
Blizzard is hurting their fanbase with this raiding, permanently. It took them decades to build this reputation that in less then 5 years of WoWification is eroded to a fraction of what it was.
Raiding kills grouping. Raiding kills a franchise.
*rolls eyes*
Raiding reduced the potential of EQ? Raiding is going ruin Warcraft? Raiding kills grouping? Do I get the impression that you don't like raiding? That's about the only true thing that can come out of your post.
I used to be a very hardcore raider in EQ, and in WoW, but now I have responsibilities and I can't raid as much as I used to. However, I still group very well in both games. And even though I wouldn't want to raid casually in EQ1, I can - and many guilds do. I still raid casually in WoW and I enjoy it immensely. Sure, I'm not the best geared - people who play more get more stuff - but that's true with any MMO - whether it be soloing, grouping or raiding.
Even though WoW basically copied the raid format of EQ, raiding lends itself incredibly well to the Warcraft franchise. The Warcraft RTS games were all about collecting resources, building an army, and sending them off to fight. That's exactly the kind of thing you can do in WoW. Whether it be instance raiding or battlegrounds. Raiding isn't going to harm the Warcraft franchise, it enriches it. What else could you expect from a RPG game based on the Warcraft universe?
Your rant reminds me of the anti-raid sentiment shown by many players in EQ. perhaps you are still bitter about the path EQ chose? Many people still enjoy EQ - one of the longest running MMOs out there, still developing expansion packs. I think you'll find there's a very viable group-orientated game called Everquest 2 which focuses on groups rather than raids. You have a good choice.
Raiding isn't evil, many, many people like raiding. And you don't have to raid in WoW. But just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's killing the game. World of Warcraft made already kingly developers into gods, very rich gods, and expanded the fanbase even further than ever before.
From day 1, we were told, by Blizzard that raiding would be a massive part of the game. We were even told that 1-60 was just the beginning, leading up to raiding. This is probably due to Furor and co, but I think after looking at WoWs success, defying belief that it would be short-lived, that perhaps raiding in a game isn't such a disastrous idea after all.
Your post was very dramatic but the reality is somewhat different.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
Recant, you remind me of religious fanatics...
They may be gods in your eyes, but I think most of the players are able to enjoy a game without changing religious beliefs
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
Will there ever a succesful Warcraft 4?
I mean...with Blood Elves being Paladins...with outer-space Draenei who have High Tech weapons.... with 25 Units killing a Semi-God who travelled through space and Destroyed whole Worlds...
WoW IMO killed the Warcraft IP for further Games. WoW is basically a Dead End, and every Expansion will make it worse...
Warhammer was, is and always will be the real War...
And yeah, Blizzard DID become strange with WoW...suddenly all stuff you download from them has to go through the painfully weird and slow Blizzard Downloader (Starcraft 2 Vids...in a Downloader with the WoW Logo...yeah right Blizzard...)...
I used to say: "Oh, a new Blizzard game. It's great. I don't know it, but I know it's great, because it's from Blizzard"...
But Post-WoW... I don't even care for Starcraft 2 currently...
Blizzard is almost dead for me, let's hope they recover from their WoWification
Later these ppl usually leaving and joining to another guilds. U got some garbage. Only person important in guild is raid leader .
GM, officers, class leaders its joke. What job they got ? Make homepage ? Some tokens 4 all system possible could b workin a lot
better. But its still grinding
Well personally I don't have a problem with raiding per se.
The problem with BC raiding is the huge time commitment to even get to some of the instances. Not as if you can just walk in to most of them.
I have a neighbor who is in a very high end raiding guild, they finished Naxx, which very few guilds came make claim to. They are doing serpentspire right now. He says it is like Naxx on steroids. Hardest instance, by a large margin, they have encountered yet. First boss is harder than any Naxx fight. And guess what that is a prereq for the Black Temple. Heavens knows how hard that is. Hence, unless very hard core, the rest need not try.
The mistake Blizzard made, was not adding all the raid content, it was restricting it to a select few. That is what will come back to haunt them. Let's face it, the black temple is something probably less than 2% of the playerbase will ever get to see.
I am in a raid guild myself, but we are more casual raiders, don't have the time to commit to be serious. We already know that there is a lot of content we will just never get to. Rather disappointing to say the least. While we were not that successful in Naxx at least we got to go in and experience it.
So yeah, Blizzard goofed big time with BC. Now we will have to sit back and see if they correct it. Personally if they fired Tigole today, the game and everything else would be far better off, the guy is so out of touch with the playerbase it is beyond imagining.
Even if WoW is a dead end - there is only so far you can go with any franchise no matter how succesful - there's still Diablo and Starcraft to milk. And a new IP wouldn't be such a crazy idea either.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
If D&D or Warhammer keep producing only High Quality Games, they could very well go on forever (not to forget they are much older than Warcraft already)...
But one badly designed game, one Story twist that's really out of place, and you can cripple an IP forever.
I agree that a lot of the raiding content is experienced by only a portion of the playerbase. Pre BC I'd say around half of the players could say they raided all the way through MC. Less than a quarter could say that for BWL and so on and so on. Naxx was probably experienced by maybe 5% of the player base.
BC threw some bones to the non-raiders, but to be honest its the same old story. Is this wrong? Maybe from a non-raiders point of view, but saying Blizz has to fix something or else the game is done for is just a joke. What the hell does Blizz care about people complaining on internet forums and asking for change? They are have been massivly successfuly with both WoW and the BC expac. Why should they fix anything? Millions are still forking it over each month and something needs fixing?
From a gamer's perspective I completely understand, but from Blizzard's point of view I don't see why they would want to change things to much.
-Senior Blizzard Dev
WoW has a great mechanism for drawing people in. It is very noob friendly, the first 10-20 levels are easy and a blast. It gets people, well, hooked. It's designed that way. It has 8.5 mil subscribers because the first 15min, and first 59 (69) levels are designed in a way that appealed to the mass market. Once someone has already played for hundreds of hours necessary to reach max level they have time invested into the game, a network of social relationships. This keeps them in the game even after content starts to become boring (raiding). I think it is a fallicy to believe that people stay in WoW because they are thrilled with the raiding model. Most people I know just have friends they like to hang out with.
WoW is not run by the same design team that originally came up with most of the concepts in the early game. Most of those people left. Today, WoW is heavily under the influence of lead designer Tigole.
Who is Tigole? Tigole is an old guild leader from EQ. He was "hardcore". He thought having a 40+ hour a week raid schedule was the coolest thing. He despised any other form of gameplay, he hated hybrid classes, he crashed servers if he was annoyed about something.
Where does the phrase "Raid of Die" come from? Well, it is right at the top of Tigole's old guild website.
Now, I enjoyed MC and BWL a bit, but raiding is rather annoying, there is no way around it. Sadly, I don't think Blizzard will acknowledge raiding is a bad model until subscriptions start to go down. Lack of any real competition has made them complacent.
The problem is deeper than raiding as the only focus of WoW.
The biggest problems are trying to combine PvP and PvE and totally using gear as the way to advance.
Gear-centric games (ie no alternate advancement as in EQ or the deeds in LotRO) results in a player base of loot-whores.
The problem of combining PvE and PvP is that no player can get the really powerful abilities that can save a raid if things begin to go wrong because it would make that class too powerful for PvP. Once the raid has a small thing go wrong, it wipes...resulting in players being more concerned with following orders and doing nothing wrong than players having fun and seeing what they can do to dramatically help the encounter. You can't give classes "real" snares or roots or heals or mezzes or temporary invulnerbility or logging to rez or anything to enable players to be the hero and save the day.
I understand people want free loot and all, but come on they added in new crafting recipes that compare to some loot. You can't get the mats and have someone make it? I mean really is it that hard to go out and do something? Hell, just go play a fps since everyone is equal in those. Wait SKILL plays a factor. Owell guess all hope is lost.
Ronan already answered you for the most part. But gear isnt the problem, having some fun at end game is. Sure, a low % of people who have time for raiding do enjoy it. But for the most part, the best part of WOW is the journey to the top. Once you are there everything turns into a grind fest, most being very unfun or tedious. Do I still play? Yeah I still play because the game overall is very well done and there is a lack of creative and well done mmo's out there to choose from. Whatever happened to fun at engame? Add something new, besides grind faction X into the ground till you are exalted for a piece of gear. Run instance X 300 times till you get a few pieces of gear. Rinse , repeat move on to next expansion ?