There's this "new" game that came out quite a long time ago. I don't know if you missed the E-Mail, but this game is so awesome. I think it has like 4 billion subscribers. It's called Life. You can go fishing, driving, boating swimming, etc. Oh and the Crafting and Combat system is the best around, takes some time to skill up but it's well worth it! Plus you can sell your crafted items on places like E-Bay or Craigslist and make some loot and you won't have to worry about getting sued, unless of course you infringe on someone's patent or idea, but hey, that's Life.
Tho i honestly don't see why they couldn't sue the snot out of gold sellers for selling gold. Its Blizzards property, their servers , their game. Theres a ton of idiotic and stupid lawsuits that go thru the court system and win all the time. If OJ can win his case, I don't see why the heck Blizzard couldn't build a dream team and win against gold sellers, and pave the way for other smaller companys to follow suit.
Well, if they really had a legal leg to stand on, I'm sure they would sue gold sellers for selling WOW gold and power-leveling services.
Or...would they? Perhaps not me thinks.
Remember, gold sellers (well, the people who farm the gold) pay lots of subscription fees, and each time they get banned they have to buy new licenses to start over. (bumps up those sales figures you know). Also, keep in mind...who do gold sellers actually sell to? Well, cheating dirtbags of course, but keep in mind...those cheaters all pay subscription fees. In fact, since they are willing to invest substantial real money into their WOW hobby, there's a very good chance that they aren't going to cancel said subscription any time soon. Heck, there's a very good chance those same cheaters actually pay for more than one subscription per month....
So where's Blizzard's real incentive to stop the gold trade? Sure, they have to pay lip-service towards appearing to care, so that people who detest the practice don't assume that they actually might condone it. But in the end, they are very de-motivated to actually prevent gold trading.
You may notice, they've made it so the best gear has to be earned via intensive in game raiding by the player or lots of in game PvP sessions, again by the players themselves. Sure, you can hire people to level you in these areas, but few have the means or desire to try to do so. So that effectively leaves gold for buying frills, like potions/materials for raiding, low level BOE gear for alts that are leveling up (and still paying sub fees) mounts which have little real effect in the gameplay, and other non consequential items.
No, I don't think Blizzard or most other game companies are really worried about shutting down the gold trade completely....
Now, in game spam is a different story, its annoying a major portion of the player base, and they are forced to deal with it. No one will ever say..boy I'm sure glad I got spammed today...but many people will continue to buy WOW gold from the sellers.
Yeah good points , I see what your getting at and it makes alot of sense. The thing that gets me tho is if the EULA has any legal weight to it what so ever. Then I don't see why they wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on. The EULA seems more like a scare tactic than anything tho. Probably all it was really ment to be. However if a EULA is looked at by the courts as a legal binding agreement or can be accepted as a legal binding agreement. If its not or isn't, They should take the steps needed to make it a legal binding agreement between consumer and provider.
Gold sellers are useing Blizzards "Servers / server processes" to conduct a business and make a profit of which Blizzard see no compensation for. Other than the origional agreement thats only pay to play for recreation, not to conduct a profitable business. So with all that said. I don't see why they couldn't start by standing here or some place similar. People pay to use Blizzards servers for recreation. Not for profit. And if the EULA even hints at this then it should be a fairly win-able case. Then just basically prove that the activity that is not what they are currently paying for is disrupting game play of others, decreasing server performance , and adding more wear and tear to Blizzards hardware that they have not been compensated for. And if that alone could be winable. The compensation for server wear and tear would be big enough to knock any goldselling company back to the Stoneage.
I know I am no legal attorney or anything. And very well could be talking out my ass. I might not be hitting the nail on the head but I am willing to bet that I am not to far off from the right idea.
Its not like Blizzard doesn;t really have the finacial means to support a team of lawyers for a long legal process. But as you said it all boils down to simply , if in fact Blizzard or any company for that matter wants to go after these guys or not. Or just use them as you mentioned.
Courts tend to deal with physicality. All this data resides on servers owned by blizzard.
If any of the data was stored on the personal computer of the user, then there might be some question, but it isn't.
Hence the spammers have no legal defense whatsoever. It really does not matter if the Eula is valid or not, the spammers are breaking the law using blizzard to spam.
Courts tend to deal with physicality. All this data resides on servers owned by blizzard. If any of the data was stored on the personal computer of the user, then there might be some question, but it isn't. Hence the spammers have no legal defense whatsoever. It really does not matter if the Eula is valid or not, the spammers are breaking the law using blizzard to spam.
Well this started with my orgional post in this topic in reguards to going after the sellers for the sellign of Gold.
Then it was brought to my attention/ I realized it was just for spamming. I thought they were going after the selling of "Gold" not spam earlier today when i first saw the thread. So in reguards to sueing the sellers for "Selling gold" is what he/she replyed to me about which then i just made the post before yours in reguards to theirs. if that confused yeah just look a page or 2 back for my origional post in this topic and you'll get it.
Well the spamming is a bit annoying, but there's nothing wrong with selling things. Its really no different than the largest guilds furnishing things for lower level members.
Actually I applaud the gold farmer's entrepreneurial spirit. But then I'm an individualist (libertarian) and not a socialist, so I think forced grouping to get better stuff is actually worse than buying gold.
Well the spamming is a bit annoying, but there's nothing wrong with selling things. Its really no different than the largest guilds furnishing things for lower level members. Actually I applaud the gold farmer's entrepreneurial spirit. But then I'm an individualist (libertarian) and not a socialist, so I think forced grouping to get better stuff is actually worse than buying gold.
I'd argue that you're just a lazy guy with a bunch of spare cash. Why buy gold when it is so easy and quick to make some yourself? The people who e-bay their characters and buy gold are in general treated with same respect as the people who buy the fanciest yacht in the marina but can not sail.
MMOs for me are all about personal accomplishments and achievements, not about my gear, rank or the guild I'm in. I only have a limited time to play, which is exactly why I detest both the gold farmers and their customers. The people who buy gold in general, are the people who spend over twenty hours of their life in-game weekly. I find this equation a bit twisted. Seriously, why do people feel that they have "the right" to the same amount of gold and level of gear as the hardcore gamers, when they play much less weekly? I see it this way, I don't play much, so I focus on having a character that is very respectable in comparison to the amount of hours I put in. After all, it feels so much better slaughtering an epic-geared team in the arena or completing a hard heroic instance when you know that it was your skill and commitment as a gamer, not your real life money, that made the difference.
About the "entrepreneurial spirit". The "entrepreneurs" behind the the gold farming syndicates quite often have links to organized crime, and are frequently the sole benefactors of the whole organization, some of which can number hundreds of underpaid child laborers living in substandard conditions. I have to admit, however, that I much prefer these people are farming gold and power-leveling characters and not running a phishing scam.
All I can say is at least they are trying. I would get 3 and 4 spams from this one company a night before the patch. Personally I am happy as long as I am not bothered with it when I play.
About <censored> time Blizzard! Nice to see them finally drop a pair and try to DO something about this. The emails, whispers and general chat ads were getting ridiculously numerous.
I myself hate both spamming and cheating. However I am against spamming cause that actually hurts my gameplay. Cheating is other's business I guess. If they are happy to waste their money, hey its THEIR money. At the end of the day they are richer in wow and I am richer in real life :P
To wannabe or not to wannabe? Hey I know the answer and it is not 42!
But the question is: Is it legal to sell and buy gold? I myself hate both spamming and cheating. However I am against spamming cause that actually hurts my gameplay. Cheating is other's business I guess. If they are happy to waste their money, hey its THEIR money. At the end of the day they are richer in wow and I am richer in real life :P
The legality remains in question, since there have been few (if any) lawsuits fought over it. It is certainly against the EULA, but those have been generally shown to be not enforceable from a legal standpoint. (Doesn't mean they can't ban you if they chose)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
PR stunt, we all know the majority of gold farmers are in sweat shops in asia and the US federal government has no jurisdiction over the activities within those countries.
But the question is: Is it legal to sell and buy gold? I myself hate both spamming and cheating. However I am against spamming cause that actually hurts my gameplay. Cheating is other's business I guess. If they are happy to waste their money, hey its THEIR money. At the end of the day they are richer in wow and I am richer in real life :P
The legality remains in question, since there have been few (if any) lawsuits fought over it. It is certainly against the EULA, but those have been generally shown to be not enforceable from a legal standpoint. (Doesn't mean they can't ban you if they chose)
The legality has never really went all the way through the legal system. For those that remember, Ebay used to sell EQ1 accounts quite often several years ago. Then SOE slapped with a lawsuit but they "settled" out of court. Mythic Entertainment also went to court over buying/selling items and accounts in DAoC, that too was settled out of court.
Basically what it boils down to is when you pay the sub, the company is leasing you the code. Any levels you gain, items you acquire or skillups achieved are still part of the company's code, so still not yours ... you're just leasing it. Think about it, if you lease a car you can't sell the radio inside it can you?
My Option: They are not going to crap to these people; they did this just to appease the masses (the people that complain). You watch these people will still sell gold and Blizzard will do nothing about it.
Thats because their response is too light, they should come down on these cretins and make their lives pure f'ing hell on earth. It would only be fitting to drive the asshats at peons4hire to commit suicide, anything less is more than those blood sucking maggots desreve.
The number of replies to this topic shows just how much of an issue this topic is with all gamers. In truth the gold sellers are a nessecary evil for some players. I personally have never, nor would I ever, buy gold or characters or items online, I feel that part of the fun( i use the word fun losely) in the game is achieving the goals for yourself. Some players do not have the time to dedicate to farming for mats and gold, hours on end, to make them eligble for end game raiding and content they need to stay competive and prepared for. WoW is the best MMORPG while you lvl up in my opinion, once lvl cap is reached the game becomes redundant enough with out farming materials for 20 hours a weeks.
I have never used a gold selling service but I don't blame those who do. Blame the game design for making the need for such services in the first place. 5000g for a epic flying mount............Would the demand for gold selling services be as popular if epic flying training (and other items/skills) were only availiable by questing instead? Blizzard created the World of Warcraft. Blizzard also created the enviorment that selling gold in RL is profitable. Blizzard makes you sign a statement saying they own everything in the game including "your" character. That being the case they also own the blame for making the need for gold selling/buying since it is an ingame issue.
The way i see it is if gold buying is neccesary for some people to even play the game then those people eed to just quit playing WoW. The whole point of the game is to go out kill what you can, get the best stuff, do a shit load of quests and earn your own money. There is no need for gold sellers all they do is spam you and disrupt your game play. If they wouldnt spam me and just existed online as gold sellers for WoW there wouldnt be a lawsuit.
Blizzard has announced on their forums that they will be taking legal action against Peons4hire, a gold selling organization well known to many World of Warcraft players for their obnoxious spamming and in-game advertising.
As many of you know, the latest content patch, along with many great new content additions, contains technical counter-measures designed to combat in-game gold spamming. Our efforts to reduce in-game abuse and create a fun, safe environment for everyone are never-ending. With that said, we felt that it was important to share with the community just how serious we are in our efforts to combat this type of abuse. Blizzard has filed a federal lawsuit against the operators of Peons4hire, a popular gold-selling organization which many of you have no doubt seen advertised. As part of the lawsuit, the operators of Peons4hire have been asked to immediately cease all in-game spamming efforts by all entities and websites under their control. If this organization refuses to act accordingly, further legal action will be taken. We'll be sure to keep you posted on the progress of this topic.
Who cares there are bigger and better games out there where you don't have to put up with this sort of activity.
Raven
Actually what you meant was smaller, hence no reason for anyone to spam selling gold . Any large game has problems tryign to combat farmers and gold seling. Lineage 2 and WOW have major problems with both .
The disheartening thing to me is how casually people talk about cheating.
Since it is a violation to the rules to buy gold, you are cheating. No partial grey issue here, cheating in a game when it affects others is a pretty dispicable deed. This is not your fps where the first thing you do when you are stuck is go look the cheat codes on the web. This is a game you play with others, hence anything you do affects their play too.
If you bought gold or anything else in this game you cheated. If that does not bother your conscience, you are in definite need of a morals check.
Originally posted by Szark Blizzard has announced on their forums that they will be taking legal action against Peons4hire, a gold selling organization well known to many World of Warcraft players for their obnoxious spamming and in-game advertising.
Finding this here is rather amusing coming from a company that supports gold seller websites by posting their ad banners on site.
Comments
There's this "new" game that came out quite a long time ago. I don't know if you missed the E-Mail, but this game is so awesome. I think it has like 4 billion subscribers. It's called Life. You can go fishing, driving, boating swimming, etc. Oh and the Crafting and Combat system is the best around, takes some time to skill up but it's well worth it! Plus you can sell your crafted items on places like E-Bay or Craigslist and make some loot and you won't have to worry about getting sued, unless of course you infringe on someone's patent or idea, but hey, that's Life.
Life, your in the Real world now.
LOL
Or...would they? Perhaps not me thinks.
Remember, gold sellers (well, the people who farm the gold) pay lots of subscription fees, and each time they get banned they have to buy new licenses to start over. (bumps up those sales figures you know). Also, keep in mind...who do gold sellers actually sell to? Well, cheating dirtbags of course, but keep in mind...those cheaters all pay subscription fees. In fact, since they are willing to invest substantial real money into their WOW hobby, there's a very good chance that they aren't going to cancel said subscription any time soon. Heck, there's a very good chance those same cheaters actually pay for more than one subscription per month....
So where's Blizzard's real incentive to stop the gold trade? Sure, they have to pay lip-service towards appearing to care, so that people who detest the practice don't assume that they actually might condone it. But in the end, they are very de-motivated to actually prevent gold trading.
You may notice, they've made it so the best gear has to be earned via intensive in game raiding by the player or lots of in game PvP sessions, again by the players themselves. Sure, you can hire people to level you in these areas, but few have the means or desire to try to do so. So that effectively leaves gold for buying frills, like potions/materials for raiding, low level BOE gear for alts that are leveling up (and still paying sub fees) mounts which have little real effect in the gameplay, and other non consequential items.
No, I don't think Blizzard or most other game companies are really worried about shutting down the gold trade completely....
Now, in game spam is a different story, its annoying a major portion of the player base, and they are forced to deal with it. No one will ever say..boy I'm sure glad I got spammed today...but many people will continue to buy WOW gold from the sellers.
Yeah good points , I see what your getting at and it makes alot of sense. The thing that gets me tho is if the EULA has any legal weight to it what so ever. Then I don't see why they wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on. The EULA seems more like a scare tactic than anything tho. Probably all it was really ment to be. However if a EULA is looked at by the courts as a legal binding agreement or can be accepted as a legal binding agreement. If its not or isn't, They should take the steps needed to make it a legal binding agreement between consumer and provider.
Gold sellers are useing Blizzards "Servers / server processes" to conduct a business and make a profit of which Blizzard see no compensation for. Other than the origional agreement thats only pay to play for recreation, not to conduct a profitable business. So with all that said. I don't see why they couldn't start by standing here or some place similar. People pay to use Blizzards servers for recreation. Not for profit. And if the EULA even hints at this then it should be a fairly win-able case. Then just basically prove that the activity that is not what they are currently paying for is disrupting game play of others, decreasing server performance , and adding more wear and tear to Blizzards hardware that they have not been compensated for. And if that alone could be winable. The compensation for server wear and tear would be big enough to knock any goldselling company back to the Stoneage.
I know I am no legal attorney or anything. And very well could be talking out my ass. I might not be hitting the nail on the head but I am willing to bet that I am not to far off from the right idea.
Its not like Blizzard doesn;t really have the finacial means to support a team of lawyers for a long legal process. But as you said it all boils down to simply , if in fact Blizzard or any company for that matter wants to go after these guys or not. Or just use them as you mentioned.
Courts tend to deal with physicality. All this data resides on servers owned by blizzard.
If any of the data was stored on the personal computer of the user, then there might be some question, but it isn't.
Hence the spammers have no legal defense whatsoever. It really does not matter if the Eula is valid or not, the spammers are breaking the law using blizzard to spam.
Well this started with my orgional post in this topic in reguards to going after the sellers for the sellign of Gold.
Then it was brought to my attention/ I realized it was just for spamming.
I thought they were going after the selling of "Gold" not spam earlier today when i first saw the thread. So in reguards to sueing the sellers for "Selling gold" is what he/she replyed to me about which then i just made the post before yours in reguards to theirs. 
if that confused yeah just look a page or 2 back for my origional post in this topic and you'll get it. 
Well the spamming is a bit annoying, but there's nothing wrong with selling things. Its really no different than the largest guilds furnishing things for lower level members.
Actually I applaud the gold farmer's entrepreneurial spirit. But then I'm an individualist (libertarian) and not a socialist, so I think forced grouping to get better stuff is actually worse than buying gold.
"Life is too short to play nerfed characters."
MMOs for me are all about personal accomplishments and achievements, not about my gear, rank or the guild I'm in. I only have a limited time to play, which is exactly why I detest both the gold farmers and their customers. The people who buy gold in general, are the people who spend over twenty hours of their life in-game weekly. I find this equation a bit twisted. Seriously, why do people feel that they have "the right" to the same amount of gold and level of gear as the hardcore gamers, when they play much less weekly? I see it this way, I don't play much, so I focus on having a character that is very respectable in comparison to the amount of hours I put in. After all, it feels so much better slaughtering an epic-geared team in the arena or completing a hard heroic instance when you know that it was your skill and commitment as a gamer, not your real life money, that made the difference.
About the "entrepreneurial spirit". The "entrepreneurs" behind the the gold farming syndicates quite often have links to organized crime, and are frequently the sole benefactors of the whole organization, some of which can number hundreds of underpaid child laborers living in substandard conditions. I have to admit, however, that I much prefer these people are farming gold and power-leveling characters and not running a phishing scam.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
And, seriously, some of you are just reading way way to much into this. Sometimes words say exactly what they say and nothing more.
But the question is:
Is it legal to sell and buy gold?
I myself hate both spamming and cheating. However I am against spamming cause that actually hurts my gameplay. Cheating is other's business I guess. If they are happy to waste their money, hey its THEIR money. At the end of the day they are richer in wow and I am richer in real life :P
To wannabe or not to wannabe? Hey I know the answer and it is not 42!
-Naaz.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
PR stunt, we all know the majority of gold farmers are in sweat shops in asia and the US federal government has no jurisdiction over the activities within those countries.
The legality has never really went all the way through the legal system. For those that remember, Ebay used to sell EQ1 accounts quite often several years ago. Then SOE slapped with a lawsuit but they "settled" out of court. Mythic Entertainment also went to court over buying/selling items and accounts in DAoC, that too was settled out of court.
Basically what it boils down to is when you pay the sub, the company is leasing you the code. Any levels you gain, items you acquire or skillups achieved are still part of the company's code, so still not yours ... you're just leasing it. Think about it, if you lease a car you can't sell the radio inside it can you?
www.casualguild.info/forums/viewtopic.php
Scroll about 3/4 of the way down to see what i'm talking about.
u can buy your gold back!
If u get hacked blizzard wont recover your gold savings, so to all you "cheaters fuck off!!!!!! nuuuuubbs!!!!" what would u do if u just lost
8k gold ? THINK gdamit!
Start the flaming process ...
The number of replies to this topic shows just how much of an issue this topic is with all gamers. In truth the gold sellers are a nessecary evil for some players. I personally have never, nor would I ever, buy gold or characters or items online, I feel that part of the fun( i use the word fun losely) in the game is achieving the goals for yourself. Some players do not have the time to dedicate to farming for mats and gold, hours on end, to make them eligble for end game raiding and content they need to stay competive and prepared for. WoW is the best MMORPG while you lvl up in my opinion, once lvl cap is reached the game becomes redundant enough with out farming materials for 20 hours a weeks.
I have never used a gold selling service but I don't blame those who do. Blame the game design for making the need for such services in the first place. 5000g for a epic flying mount............Would the demand for gold selling services be as popular if epic flying training (and other items/skills) were only availiable by questing instead? Blizzard created the World of Warcraft. Blizzard also created the enviorment that selling gold in RL is profitable. Blizzard makes you sign a statement saying they own everything in the game including "your" character. That being the case they also own the blame for making the need for gold selling/buying since it is an ingame issue.
Read the thread on the WoW forums.
Who cares there are bigger and better games out there where you don't have to put up with this sort of activity.Raven
Actually what you meant was smaller, hence no reason for anyone to spam selling gold
The disheartening thing to me is how casually people talk about cheating.
Since it is a violation to the rules to buy gold, you are cheating. No partial grey issue here, cheating in a game when it affects others is a pretty dispicable deed. This is not your fps where the first thing you do when you are stuck is go look the cheat codes on the web. This is a game you play with others, hence anything you do affects their play too.
If you bought gold or anything else in this game you cheated. If that does not bother your conscience, you are in definite need of a morals check.
Finding this here is rather amusing coming from a company that supports gold seller websites by posting their ad banners on site.