Originally posted by Landogarner Originally posted by Lustmord Originally posted by JT
Originally posted by Lustmord And btw, I don't currently play WoW, but I can say it has some of the best PvP Mechanics I've seen. It just needs better PvP Content.
Some of the best PvP Mechanics?????? Apparently you haven't seen much. I don't play WoW any longer myself, in fact I finished the game 3 months after release. I really hoped that WoW's PvP would be good, but it's the worst I've seen so far. It does have a great PvE system, especially if you like raiding. /sigh
I just made a big long post but accidently pressed Back and lost it all.
In a nutshell, I've played them all since UO, Currently playing EQ2.
WoW has the tightest most responsive controls, and best overall combat. I'm not talking battlegrounds or the old honor system.. I'm talking about meeting a equally geared oppenent in the wild and engaging. It's got tons of Attacks, Heals, and CC's in the game, and it's got multiple insta-cast counters for every single one.
90% of the spells in the game require Line of Sight at the the beginning and end of casting, and the game doesn't make you auto-face your target like EQ2/CoH. And there's no Auto-Follow Enemy button for Warriors who can't multi-task like DAoC.
The only thing it needs easy to obtain gear for non-raiders and seige mechanics like Shadowbane/DAoC.
Shadowbane and DAoC have the best PvP Content, but they have terrible mechanics. Slow, Unresponsive, Sluggish Controls makes piss-poor combat, imo.
Exactly! Thank you. I want fast, fps like, pvp where skill matters not having the latest uber weapon. And meaningful and competitive pvp system that I can climb to the top of and look down upon the broken bodies of my enemies.
It's hard to find skilled and dedicated people that share this in WoW.
You make some good points here Lustmore, but I still don't believe it to be the best overall combat system. I definately prefer the pvp out in the "wild" over the boring BG's. I can see them expanding on the already in place BG's, but for open pvp.. I don't see it happening. If that does happen, you might actually see me back in game. The BG's in DAoC are ten times what WoW's BG's are. I played on a PvP server and compared to PvE servers it was dead. Like most here, I believe Blizzard will cater to PvE, Raiding, less PvP crowd. I can't prove the numbers either way, but I'd bet my next paycheck that 85% of players don't care much for a more open PvP.
Landogarner: If your wanting a fast, fps like pvp.. your not going to find that in WoW. First off it's not FPS and very little skill is required. The whole PvP system is based off having the latest uber items. The ranking system is pretty cool, but it's there so you can get even more uber items. You need to check out WW2 online or Planetside.
On Wow about 6 million subscribers prefer pve. Only about 2 million like pvp. So Wow would be making a huge mistake if they made there game primarily PVP. I like PVP but the fact of the matter is most people don't.
well thats just not gonna happen, i wish it did but pvp in wow is boring
its very hard to make changes in pvp now and if they did it would change the game completely hence y they wont do it...
wow has become (especially with the expantion) very pve based, raiding is fun and all but too much is just boring, plus these new raids arnt half as fun as the old ones gg bliz
1. When EQ1 was #1 and other MMO's came out with cool new features, Sony ripped those off in a hot minute. Blizzard will do the same, they will adapt new features and gameplay into their game to meet popular demands.
Dont compare blizzard with SOny.. that insulting the starcraft/warcraft/diablo creators.
2. I read post after post of people sick of raiding, I never read "I love to Raid" posts. Blizzards core audience is in casual PvE and PvP.. Not raiding.
the people complaining are only reprensenting a very few % of the players currently playing WoW.
3. There are more PvP Servers than PvE servers in WoW.
besides the fact that you can creater a char on both factions in a PVE server what is the real difference beteen pve and pvp server ?
4. It wouldn't be hard to implement. The current lands are already well defended, but they would just need to add a new land to fight over.. Perhaps there's a special resource there that both Alliance and Horde need.
So basicly new mand for "pvp".. face it man the game isnt about PvP most of the players ( the ones complaining about WoW pvp me included) want.. and probably will never be.. that would go against the "friendly" WoW is. If they wanted the game tobe more pvp oriented they would jsut have to fix the guards spawn in capitals but then you ll see WAYYYYYYY more complains about that than about how pvp sucks in this game.
I mean, I could be wrong, but signs of the times show that people don't like raiding anymore. People want PvP. People will flock to the PvP games and Blizzard, being smart, will focus on more pvp content to stay on top.
You're wrong those come from the people bored of the game... even though this number will probbaly increase ( that the fate of all games) the true is there is still a lot of people that liek to grind they faction to raid so they can get better item to go raid a harder dungeon so they can get even better gear etc etc etc
And btw, I don't currently play WoW, but I can say it has some of the best PvP Mechanics I've seen. It just needs better PvP Content.
the pvp mechanics arent bad indeed, but there is too many flaws .. personnally i like DAOC way more.
I doubt that any future WoW expansion will focus heavily on PvP. We may see additional PvP elements added to the game, but an entire expansion based on PvP is not likley.
Most WoW gamers do not PvP. The problem with PvP is that your average gamer associates PvP with griefing. That is due in large part to poor implementation of PvP in WoW and in many other MMOs. PvP is a developmental after-thought for a lot of MMOs. What tends to happen is that PvP is added on special "free-for-all" servers with no real game mechanics designed to structure PvP. That leads to griefing on these "free-for-all" servers and that sours the experience for a lot of gamers. Thus the average gamer tends to shy away from PvP.
WoW has made some postive steps in PvP, but far too many of their players simply don't care for PvP. Even on the "PvP servers" I would say only perhaps 25% or less of the player base actually PvPs. Again I blame that on poor implementation of PvP early on in WoW. It was just a big grief fest early on.
I don't see how you arrived at the conclusion that the next expansion won't be PvP centric, because of what TBC brought. If anything they'll alternate their focus between PvE and PvP with each expansion.
I also think you are underestimating the potential to add PvP to WoW - sure, they have failed to capture the 'hardcore "IF I CANT LOOT EVERYTHING ITS NOT PVP" PvPer' demographic, but for casual PvP they are doing pretty well. The arena ladder system is great (if you're 70). We could use more BGs for sure, but Blizzard have hinted at other things.
Aha, so my conclusion, that WoW will stay a PvE Centric game has no reason, while your conclusion, that they alternate, HAS a reason?
There is only 1 Expansion for WoW. And the Original Game. Both were PvE, and Raid Centric. If they'd alternate, the first expansion would've been a PvP Add-On, because then Original Game, PvE, Add-On, PvP, next Add-On PvE and so forth...
But currently there are two products of WoW, Original and Burning Crusade, and both focus HEAVILY on PvE and Raiding Content.
Also, they are NOT doing well for Casual PvP, because it means nothing. It's only for your own Character's advancement.
You can't capture/control towns, you can't unlock special Dungeons by controlling them, you can't help your Side win the War, you can't do ANYTHING than killing your not-really-Enemies (heck, they have a friggin Truce going on...wtf?!).
Or, well the other way around: In Original WoW, Alliance and Horde had a frail Peace-Treaty because of the Legion's assault. In TBC, both armies ALLIED! And fought side by side against the Legion! Soooo, going by pure logic, the next Add-On would smelt Alliance and Horde into one Faction, with Peace between them...that's of course stupid and won't happen...but ah well...
Since every WoW Character in TBC is officially an absolute Super-Hero (since he can, together with 24 of his kind, Kill Illidan, who destroyed whole worlds and travelled through galaxies! Well... must've been pretty weak Worlds, I suppose oO), they might add some Dragonball-Z'esque flying fights or whatnot...
Ah bleh, I don't care anyway, DAoC had, has and will always have better PvP than WoW anyways, and that makes WoW simply boring and uninteresting for me, so I won't bother anymore...
EDIT: Oh and btw: Blizzard hinted at Siege Equipment since Beta, and at Hero Classes since well I dunno, 3 Years or so...and what has happened? Nothing.
you CAN control towns. you missed that part of the expansion did you?
fact is the expansion is much less raid centric than the original AND more pvp centric. the original had no pvp but random ganking.
battlegrounds were added later, not at release. TBC has arenas and conquerable objectives in World pvp, both for outlands and high level azeroth areas.
Raids have been limited to 25 persons and the amount of 5 and 10 men instances has been rised tremendously.
So, if this is where they are going and they go the same way, it would come logic to think they are gonna curtail even more the raid content and increase the small groups, solo pve and the pvp.
You can think otherwise and you might be right but it is clear to me that blizzard followed the people in the expansion. so if the people want more pvp, that is what they will get.
And please, i do not care if DAoC pvp is the best of the world, the pve of that game was sub par at best and had you go trough it to GET to the actual real meaningful pvp (Daoc battlegrounds are almost same as WoW battlegrounds). So let's not compare them yes? there is no need, this thread is about the next wow expansion, not how daoc compare to wow.
thanks.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
My money says that the next WoW expansion will be awesome..
It will be all about PvP.
Why? Because WoW will have to compete with WAR and AoC. Blizzard is smart, and they will adapt to a more PvP Centric game, because that is what the masses are wanting, imo.
In WoW's Lore, the war isn't on atm, just small skirmish's.. But the Next expansion will be the beginning of the war.
You might be right. The TBC already had additional pvp elements beyond what the basic game had and the Dark portal mechanic could spawn a interdimensional resource race of a sort.
Thinking Blizzard does not understand PvP is foolish, they created Starcraft, did they not? and isn't starcraft, like, the most popular PvP game ever, at least on Pcs? yeah, it is.
They do not understand MMo pvp? then how come most of the servers ARE PvP servers? if it is so bad, how come more than 50% of the players actually prefer it over pve?
WoW is the only game with a seasonal Arena championship.
Then again, it is possible they don't, and keep their totally 100% pvp-centric game for their second MMos, prolly Starcraft Galaxies to be released after Starcraft 2 (when the hype of the people is at the peak).
Well, we will know in August.
blizzard north created starcraft. they also created diablo and warcraft.
blizzard north people are no longer in the employ of blizzard.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
My money says that the next WoW expansion will be awesome..
It will be all about PvP.
Why? Because WoW will have to compete with WAR and AoC. Blizzard is smart, and they will adapt to a more PvP Centric game, because that is what the masses are wanting, imo.
In WoW's Lore, the war isn't on atm, just small skirmish's.. But the Next expansion will be the beginning of the war.
You might be right. The TBC already had additional pvp elements beyond what the basic game had and the Dark portal mechanic could spawn a interdimensional resource race of a sort.
Thinking Blizzard does not understand PvP is foolish, they created Starcraft, did they not? and isn't starcraft, like, the most popular PvP game ever, at least on Pcs? yeah, it is.
They do not understand MMo pvp? then how come most of the servers ARE PvP servers? if it is so bad, how come more than 50% of the players actually prefer it over pve?
WoW is the only game with a seasonal Arena championship.
Then again, it is possible they don't, and keep their totally 100% pvp-centric game for their second MMos, prolly Starcraft Galaxies to be released after Starcraft 2 (when the hype of the people is at the peak).
Well, we will know in August.
blizzard north created starcraft. they also created diablo and warcraft.
blizzard north people are no longer in the employ of blizzard.
Blizzard north only worked on the Diablo series. They had nothing to do with Warcraft or Starcraft
you CAN control towns. you missed that part of the expansion did you?
battlegrounds were added later, not at release. TBC has arenas and conquerable objectives in World pvp, both for outlands and high level azeroth areas.
Ahahahah...
Hahahah...
Aaaahhhh, yes...the all famous conquerable Objectives....bwahahaha
(OOoh look, we conquered all objectives, now we do 5% more damage against undead, yeehaw!...too bad the Enemies don't even care, because the Bonus isn't worth it, so it'll stay ours forever, until some bored guy takes 'em all again at 4:00 AM)...
Yeah right, GREAT PvP
And the Arenas and all that...it's just bleh. It's not like you are fighting for your cause, it's fighting for you and you alone... I mean, CTF...oO Helloooooh? Why does the Side who steals one stupid flag suddenly gains control over the Warsong Gulch?
OH RIGHT, they don't at all, since it's a stupid scenario that always resets, so you do it for NOTHING apart from "phat lewtz" for you...
WoW PvP is not like two Armies are facing off, it's like...well I dunno, commercial Boxing...
(EDIT: Before someone mentions it: I AM aware of the fact that WoW never wants Alliance and Horde fighting each other to death, because of the oh so evil Burning Legion...only Problem is the oh so evil Leader of it is stuck in an Instance, waiting to be killed, so there's no freaking threat at all...)
So yes, TBC added Arenas (I dunno how many...was it 3?), and some objectives in some zones of the new world (the capturable objectives of the "Old World" existed pre-TBC)...together with...well I dunno, 12 new Instances?! (4 in the very first Zone ALONE!)...
Then the Patch came...and whoa, just added ANOTHER Instance...yeah, Blizz must really be focussing on PvP
But I won't argue anymore on that topic, if you want to defend the laughable PvP of WoW, do so, my time is more valuable so I won't waste it on arguing about a Raiding MMORPG :-/
Unfortunately with WoW as I found out the best PvP's are also those ppl with the best PvE kit and I mean trinkets, rings, necklaces, capes etc.
As a Warlock in full Tier 2 (Demo specced) and the best BWL and AQ items with the best PvE enchants on them we got as a guild I would own any Warlord lock in PvP kit. I used to come top of every AV, WSG or AB game I played only after getting my +550 SD from heavy PvE raiding.
Now the tables turn as Warriors is high SR gear obtained from PvE raiding heavily resist spells and damage.
This is why WoW won't really be great at PvP, those with no RL who spend 24/7 playing WoW with potions, pots and kit to burn will always win irrespective of skill.
I know this, most good PvP'ers have agreed with me and its why WAR should be WoWs replacement.
WoW will never be PvP centric because it is not design that way. Just look at the battleground, it is just a PvP added-on and it is not very successful. What make you think a PvP re-engineering (crazyly hugh development investment) of the entire WoW would work?
Just a reminder, PvP in WOW is not based on skill, but the amount of time-invested... PvP more in WOW does not make you a better PvP player, PvE more would make you a better PvP player.... sad isn't it?
I hope you are not a gambler cause you would lose BIG on this bet.
I don't think the existing content will turn into pvp, but keep in mind a new expansion brings new area's. there is plenty of room for PVP plans there.
you CAN control towns. you missed that part of the expansion did you?
battlegrounds were added later, not at release. TBC has arenas and conquerable objectives in World pvp, both for outlands and high level azeroth areas.
Ahahahah...
Hahahah...
Aaaahhhh, yes...the all famous conquerable Objectives....bwahahaha
(OOoh look, we conquered all objectives, now we do 5% more damage against undead, yeehaw!...too bad the Enemies don't even care, because the Bonus isn't worth it, so it'll stay ours forever, until some bored guy takes 'em all again at 4:00 AM)...
Yeah right, GREAT PvP
And the Arenas and all that...it's just bleh. It's not like you are fighting for your cause, it's fighting for you and you alone... I mean, CTF...oO Helloooooh? Why does the Side who steals one stupid flag suddenly gains control over the Warsong Gulch?
OH RIGHT, they don't at all, since it's a stupid scenario that always resets, so you do it for NOTHING apart from "phat lewtz" for you...
WoW PvP is not like two Armies are facing off, it's like...well I dunno, commercial Boxing...
(EDIT: Before someone mentions it: I AM aware of the fact that WoW never wants Alliance and Horde fighting each other to death, because of the oh so evil Burning Legion...only Problem is the oh so evil Leader of it is stuck in an Instance, waiting to be killed, so there's no freaking threat at all...)
So yes, TBC added Arenas (I dunno how many...was it 3?), and some objectives in some zones of the new world (the capturable objectives of the "Old World" existed pre-TBC)...together with...well I dunno, 12 new Instances?! (4 in the very first Zone ALONE!)...
Then the Patch came...and whoa, just added ANOTHER Instance...yeah, Blizz must really be focussing on PvP
But I won't argue anymore on that topic, if you want to defend the laughable PvP of WoW, do so, my time is more valuable so I won't waste it on arguing about a Raiding MMORPG :-/
so, once your agument (TBs was mainly a raid expansion) get debunked with logic, you downgrade your debate to mudding what was added?
I do not care and it wasn't a topic of this conversation how good or bad the pvp elements of TBC are. YOU claimed there were none. Well, there are.
YOU claimed TBC is a mainly raid expansion. I showed you it is not. YOU might think the pvp elements are crap, but this DOES NOT REMOVE THE FACT THEY ARE THERE.
the conquerable objectives of old world were added just before the TBC hit and were part of the concerted strategy of the expansion, so I consider them art of it even if technically they are not.
have a nice day.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
The particular genius of WoW, and the appeal to most of its subscribers, is that it is not too "centric" on any facet of its game play. What Blizzard has done better than any other MMORPG company to date is not alienate any of the different archtypes of the modern MMORPG player. There is easily accessable content for the quester, the explorer, the crafter, and the pvper in both soloable and group versions.
If Blizzard was to do a pvp focused exansion, it would seem to violate that concept of inclusiveness and direction that the game has taken in the last 2 years. I do beleive that Blizzard has made an effort to include the pvper since launch, (ie. Battlegrounds and PvP reward gear), and in TBC an even broader PvP experience (Arenas and World PvP), but not so much that it can be called a PvP-centric game.
Theyve obviously tried to increase content for the quester/raider since launch by the introduction of many instances, and in TBC by making raiding content more accessible by increasing the small group (ie. 5-10 man), instances. But still not so much that it can be called a quest-centric game.
In this way, WoW has been able to avoid what dooms many MMORPGS from the start, as being labeled a niche game. Its not a PvP game, its not a quest game, its not a crafting game, but it does all of these pretty well. While it may not do ANY of these well enough to satisfy a hardcore person of that archtype, it does them all well enough to be the dominant force in the industry.
I totally agree that PvP in WoW can be better. ( I would like to see some kind of siege warfare introduced) It would be great to see Blizzard somehow put more emphasis on skill/tatics verse gear. ( I favor a 70/30 skill/gear ratio) But neither do I want Blizz to reduce the focus on developing better quests/raids. (I also really liked the idea of the poster above about faction specific dungeons and gear. Horde only/Alliance only instances.)
Having played MMORPGS for many years, I love PvP and PvP games. WAR looks great, and if it has unique mechanics and tight controls, it looks to be the pvpers dream. But if the questing/exploration/crafting isnt there, it wont dethrone WoW. It may still be a sucess (ie. GuildWars) but its just gonna be a niche PvP game at best.
I think we can pretty much conclude that the OP said what he said purely based on wishful thinking and lack of understanding of the game mechanic. Perhaps next time he should think it through with facts and logics....
Imo for a pvp game u need a couple of fundemantal things: 1st of all class versatility between the different factions which wow does not have right now (horde and alliance classes r almost the same) and making pvp skill based, especially making it so that pve xperience has nothing to do with pvp xperience.
Tbh pvp in wow is 2 gear centric, and if some new maps get pvp content and pvp relies more on skill all the kids will start crying for the nerf bat!
Besides the way pvp is right now its just another grind, maybe they'll just add a couple more BG's but anymore would require them to change the fundemantals of pvp, since pvp eventes like sieges require players to invest time testing dufferent builds and evolving tactis something i dont see the majority of wow players willing to do, and ithink blizzard knows that.
p.s. daoc has great content pvp wise, shadowbane even better since pve on it means almost absolutely nothing try it out if u wanna see what real pvp is like, its free
If Blizzard can add real PvP to WoW without breaking the game, it will be a critical strike to all competition. I somehow doubt they can take a PvE game and change it into PvP all of a sudden. A lot of bored WoW players have abanded it for WAR and AoC. However, Blizzard's next MMO will most likely be the end-all-be-all of MMO's. They've got deep pockets and talented developers. For the time-being, I will continue to look forward to AoC.
yes, the next one would be the most classic one . Terminater of All the MMO'S - TOAM
WoW BADLY needs a new server type that is dedicated to PVP and specifically town raids / world PVP.
What the game needs are changes like 1. limiting town guards or removing them completely. 2. Removing soulbound status from items and adding item drop and player looting in PVP. 3. Change the mechanics of corpse runs so that players respawn at a lifestone type location (spirit healer) instead of running back and respawning at their corpse. 4. Free for all PVP so there are not 2 factions but it's a guild/individual based war.
Make a server with rules changes such as these and you will see how insanely popular they become. Players want to fight vs other guilds on the world server,"own" instances and towns, Not care so much about their gear because they can drop it or loot stuff off other players in PVP. Players want to be able to PVP all night, 24 hours a day 7 days a week and that is exactly what would be going on on a server like this one. The current game server types suck. There are PVE and PVP which are basically exactly the same. With flying mounts there is really no freaking difference between PVP and PVE servers. It sucks.
Enough with the WOW bashers go play the game you want to play hell i have played all of the new mmo's out there and WOW still is the best. Lotro what a joke there is no pvp at all o dam you can spar wow???? vanguard its so buggy nobody wants to play it anymore Eve online i give that credit because its a good game i just not into your only a ship thing and cant every be a person or alien walking around Guild Wars is alright pvp is nice but everyone has really good gear. and thats just some of this why cant we just get along and have nice conversations
Comments
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/sigh
I just made a big long post but accidently pressed Back and lost it all.
In a nutshell, I've played them all since UO, Currently playing EQ2.
WoW has the tightest most responsive controls, and best overall combat.
I'm not talking battlegrounds or the old honor system.. I'm talking about meeting a equally geared oppenent in the wild and engaging.
It's got tons of Attacks, Heals, and CC's in the game, and it's got multiple insta-cast counters for every single one.
90% of the spells in the game require Line of Sight at the the beginning and end of casting, and the game doesn't make you auto-face your target like EQ2/CoH. And there's no Auto-Follow Enemy button for Warriors who can't multi-task like DAoC.
The only thing it needs easy to obtain gear for non-raiders and seige mechanics like Shadowbane/DAoC.
Shadowbane and DAoC have the best PvP Content, but they have terrible mechanics.
Slow, Unresponsive, Sluggish Controls makes piss-poor combat, imo.
Exactly! Thank you. I want fast, fps like, pvp where skill matters not having the latest uber weapon. And meaningful and competitive pvp system that I can climb to the top of and look down upon the broken bodies of my enemies.
It's hard to find skilled and dedicated people that share this in WoW.
You make some good points here Lustmore, but I still don't believe it to be the best overall combat system. I definately prefer the pvp out in the "wild" over the boring BG's. I can see them expanding on the already in place BG's, but for open pvp.. I don't see it happening. If that does happen, you might actually see me back in game. The BG's in DAoC are ten times what WoW's BG's are. I played on a PvP server and compared to PvE servers it was dead. Like most here, I believe Blizzard will cater to PvE, Raiding, less PvP crowd. I can't prove the numbers either way, but I'd bet my next paycheck that 85% of players don't care much for a more open PvP.
Landogarner: If your wanting a fast, fps like pvp.. your not going to find that in WoW. First off it's not FPS and very little skill is required. The whole PvP system is based off having the latest uber items. The ranking system is pretty cool, but it's there so you can get even more uber items. You need to check out WW2 online or Planetside.
its very hard to make changes in pvp now and if they did it would change the game completely hence y they wont do it...
wow has become (especially with the expantion) very pve based, raiding is fun and all but too much is just boring, plus these new raids arnt half as fun as the old ones
I doubt that any future WoW expansion will focus heavily on PvP. We may see additional PvP elements added to the game, but an entire expansion based on PvP is not likley.
Most WoW gamers do not PvP. The problem with PvP is that your average gamer associates PvP with griefing. That is due in large part to poor implementation of PvP in WoW and in many other MMOs. PvP is a developmental after-thought for a lot of MMOs. What tends to happen is that PvP is added on special "free-for-all" servers with no real game mechanics designed to structure PvP. That leads to griefing on these "free-for-all" servers and that sours the experience for a lot of gamers. Thus the average gamer tends to shy away from PvP.
WoW has made some postive steps in PvP, but far too many of their players simply don't care for PvP. Even on the "PvP servers" I would say only perhaps 25% or less of the player base actually PvPs. Again I blame that on poor implementation of PvP early on in WoW. It was just a big grief fest early on.
There is only 1 Expansion for WoW. And the Original Game. Both were PvE, and Raid Centric. If they'd alternate, the first expansion would've been a PvP Add-On, because then Original Game, PvE, Add-On, PvP, next Add-On PvE and so forth...
But currently there are two products of WoW, Original and Burning Crusade, and both focus HEAVILY on PvE and Raiding Content.
Also, they are NOT doing well for Casual PvP, because it means nothing. It's only for your own Character's advancement.
You can't capture/control towns, you can't unlock special Dungeons by controlling them, you can't help your Side win the War, you can't do ANYTHING than killing your not-really-Enemies (heck, they have a friggin Truce going on...wtf?!).
Or, well the other way around: In Original WoW, Alliance and Horde had a frail Peace-Treaty because of the Legion's assault. In TBC, both armies ALLIED! And fought side by side against the Legion! Soooo, going by pure logic, the next Add-On would smelt Alliance and Horde into one Faction, with Peace between them...that's of course stupid and won't happen...but ah well...
Since every WoW Character in TBC is officially an absolute Super-Hero (since he can, together with 24 of his kind, Kill Illidan, who destroyed whole worlds and travelled through galaxies! Well... must've been pretty weak Worlds, I suppose oO), they might add some Dragonball-Z'esque flying fights or whatnot...
Ah bleh, I don't care anyway, DAoC had, has and will always have better PvP than WoW anyways, and that makes WoW simply boring and uninteresting for me, so I won't bother anymore...
EDIT: Oh and btw: Blizzard hinted at Siege Equipment since Beta, and at Hero Classes since well I dunno, 3 Years or so...and what has happened? Nothing.
you CAN control towns. you missed that part of the expansion did you?
fact is the expansion is much less raid centric than the original AND more pvp centric. the original had no pvp but random ganking.
battlegrounds were added later, not at release. TBC has arenas and conquerable objectives in World pvp, both for outlands and high level azeroth areas.
Raids have been limited to 25 persons and the amount of 5 and 10 men instances has been rised tremendously.
So, if this is where they are going and they go the same way, it would come logic to think they are gonna curtail even more the raid content and increase the small groups, solo pve and the pvp.
You can think otherwise and you might be right but it is clear to me that blizzard followed the people in the expansion. so if the people want more pvp, that is what they will get.
And please, i do not care if DAoC pvp is the best of the world, the pve of that game was sub par at best and had you go trough it to GET to the actual real meaningful pvp (Daoc battlegrounds are almost same as WoW battlegrounds). So let's not compare them yes? there is no need, this thread is about the next wow expansion, not how daoc compare to wow.
thanks.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
You might be right. The TBC already had additional pvp elements beyond what the basic game had and the Dark portal mechanic could spawn a interdimensional resource race of a sort.
Thinking Blizzard does not understand PvP is foolish, they created Starcraft, did they not? and isn't starcraft, like, the most popular PvP game ever, at least on Pcs? yeah, it is.
They do not understand MMo pvp? then how come most of the servers ARE PvP servers? if it is so bad, how come more than 50% of the players actually prefer it over pve?
WoW is the only game with a seasonal Arena championship.
Then again, it is possible they don't, and keep their totally 100% pvp-centric game for their second MMos, prolly Starcraft Galaxies to be released after Starcraft 2 (when the hype of the people is at the peak).
Well, we will know in August.
blizzard north created starcraft. they also created diablo and warcraft.
blizzard north people are no longer in the employ of blizzard.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
You might be right. The TBC already had additional pvp elements beyond what the basic game had and the Dark portal mechanic could spawn a interdimensional resource race of a sort.
Thinking Blizzard does not understand PvP is foolish, they created Starcraft, did they not? and isn't starcraft, like, the most popular PvP game ever, at least on Pcs? yeah, it is.
They do not understand MMo pvp? then how come most of the servers ARE PvP servers? if it is so bad, how come more than 50% of the players actually prefer it over pve?
WoW is the only game with a seasonal Arena championship.
Then again, it is possible they don't, and keep their totally 100% pvp-centric game for their second MMos, prolly Starcraft Galaxies to be released after Starcraft 2 (when the hype of the people is at the peak).
Well, we will know in August.
blizzard north created starcraft. they also created diablo and warcraft.
blizzard north people are no longer in the employ of blizzard.
Blizzard north only worked on the Diablo series. They had nothing to do with Warcraft or StarcraftHahahah...
Aaaahhhh, yes...the all famous conquerable Objectives....bwahahaha
(OOoh look, we conquered all objectives, now we do 5% more damage against undead, yeehaw!...too bad the Enemies don't even care, because the Bonus isn't worth it, so it'll stay ours forever, until some bored guy takes 'em all again at 4:00 AM)...
Yeah right, GREAT PvP
And the Arenas and all that...it's just bleh. It's not like you are fighting for your cause, it's fighting for you and you alone... I mean, CTF...oO Helloooooh? Why does the Side who steals one stupid flag suddenly gains control over the Warsong Gulch?
OH RIGHT, they don't at all, since it's a stupid scenario that always resets, so you do it for NOTHING apart from "phat lewtz" for you...
WoW PvP is not like two Armies are facing off, it's like...well I dunno, commercial Boxing...
(EDIT: Before someone mentions it: I AM aware of the fact that WoW never wants Alliance and Horde fighting each other to death, because of the oh so evil Burning Legion...only Problem is the oh so evil Leader of it is stuck in an Instance, waiting to be killed, so there's no freaking threat at all...)
So yes, TBC added Arenas (I dunno how many...was it 3?), and some objectives in some zones of the new world (the capturable objectives of the "Old World" existed pre-TBC)...together with...well I dunno, 12 new Instances?! (4 in the very first Zone ALONE!)...
Then the Patch came...and whoa, just added ANOTHER Instance...yeah, Blizz must really be focussing on PvP
But I won't argue anymore on that topic, if you want to defend the laughable PvP of WoW, do so, my time is more valuable so I won't waste it on arguing about a Raiding MMORPG :-/
As a Warlock in full Tier 2 (Demo specced) and the best BWL and AQ items with the best PvE enchants on them we got as a guild I would own any Warlord lock in PvP kit. I used to come top of every AV, WSG or AB game I played only after getting my +550 SD from heavy PvE raiding.
Now the tables turn as Warriors is high SR gear obtained from PvE raiding heavily resist spells and damage.
This is why WoW won't really be great at PvP, those with no RL who spend 24/7 playing WoW with potions, pots and kit to burn will always win irrespective of skill.
I know this, most good PvP'ers have agreed with me and its why WAR should be WoWs replacement.
Just a reminder, PvP in WOW is not based on skill, but the amount of time-invested... PvP more in WOW does not make you a better PvP player, PvE more would make you a better PvP player.... sad isn't it?
I hope you are not a gambler cause you would lose BIG on this bet.
Hahahah...
Aaaahhhh, yes...the all famous conquerable Objectives....bwahahaha
(OOoh look, we conquered all objectives, now we do 5% more damage against undead, yeehaw!...too bad the Enemies don't even care, because the Bonus isn't worth it, so it'll stay ours forever, until some bored guy takes 'em all again at 4:00 AM)...
Yeah right, GREAT PvP
And the Arenas and all that...it's just bleh. It's not like you are fighting for your cause, it's fighting for you and you alone... I mean, CTF...oO Helloooooh? Why does the Side who steals one stupid flag suddenly gains control over the Warsong Gulch?
OH RIGHT, they don't at all, since it's a stupid scenario that always resets, so you do it for NOTHING apart from "phat lewtz" for you...
WoW PvP is not like two Armies are facing off, it's like...well I dunno, commercial Boxing...
(EDIT: Before someone mentions it: I AM aware of the fact that WoW never wants Alliance and Horde fighting each other to death, because of the oh so evil Burning Legion...only Problem is the oh so evil Leader of it is stuck in an Instance, waiting to be killed, so there's no freaking threat at all...)
So yes, TBC added Arenas (I dunno how many...was it 3?), and some objectives in some zones of the new world (the capturable objectives of the "Old World" existed pre-TBC)...together with...well I dunno, 12 new Instances?! (4 in the very first Zone ALONE!)...
Then the Patch came...and whoa, just added ANOTHER Instance...yeah, Blizz must really be focussing on PvP
But I won't argue anymore on that topic, if you want to defend the laughable PvP of WoW, do so, my time is more valuable so I won't waste it on arguing about a Raiding MMORPG :-/
so, once your agument (TBs was mainly a raid expansion) get debunked with logic, you downgrade your debate to mudding what was added?
I do not care and it wasn't a topic of this conversation how good or bad the pvp elements of TBC are. YOU claimed there were none. Well, there are.
YOU claimed TBC is a mainly raid expansion. I showed you it is not. YOU might think the pvp elements are crap, but this DOES NOT REMOVE THE FACT THEY ARE THERE.
the conquerable objectives of old world were added just before the TBC hit and were part of the concerted strategy of the expansion, so I consider them art of it even if technically they are not.
have a nice day.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
The particular genius of WoW, and the appeal to most of its subscribers, is that it is not too "centric" on any facet of its game play. What Blizzard has done better than any other MMORPG company to date is not alienate any of the different archtypes of the modern MMORPG player. There is easily accessable content for the quester, the explorer, the crafter, and the pvper in both soloable and group versions.
If Blizzard was to do a pvp focused exansion, it would seem to violate that concept of inclusiveness and direction that the game has taken in the last 2 years. I do beleive that Blizzard has made an effort to include the pvper since launch, (ie. Battlegrounds and PvP reward gear), and in TBC an even broader PvP experience (Arenas and World PvP), but not so much that it can be called a PvP-centric game.
Theyve obviously tried to increase content for the quester/raider since launch by the introduction of many instances, and in TBC by making raiding content more accessible by increasing the small group (ie. 5-10 man), instances. But still not so much that it can be called a quest-centric game.
In this way, WoW has been able to avoid what dooms many MMORPGS from the start, as being labeled a niche game. Its not a PvP game, its not a quest game, its not a crafting game, but it does all of these pretty well. While it may not do ANY of these well enough to satisfy a hardcore person of that archtype, it does them all well enough to be the dominant force in the industry.
I totally agree that PvP in WoW can be better. ( I would like to see some kind of siege warfare introduced) It would be great to see Blizzard somehow put more emphasis on skill/tatics verse gear. ( I favor a 70/30 skill/gear ratio) But neither do I want Blizz to reduce the focus on developing better quests/raids. (I also really liked the idea of the poster above about faction specific dungeons and gear. Horde only/Alliance only instances.)
Having played MMORPGS for many years, I love PvP and PvP games. WAR looks great, and if it has unique mechanics and tight controls, it looks to be the pvpers dream. But if the questing/exploration/crafting isnt there, it wont dethrone WoW. It may still be a sucess (ie. GuildWars) but its just gonna be a niche PvP game at best.
Tbh pvp in wow is 2 gear centric, and if some new maps get pvp content and pvp relies more on skill all the kids will start crying for the nerf bat!
Besides the way pvp is right now its just another grind, maybe they'll just add a couple more BG's but anymore would require them to change the fundemantals of pvp, since pvp eventes like sieges require players to invest time testing dufferent builds and evolving tactis something i dont see the majority of wow players willing to do, and ithink blizzard knows that.
p.s. daoc has great content pvp wise, shadowbane even better since pve on it means almost absolutely nothing
What the game needs are changes like 1. limiting town guards or removing them completely. 2. Removing soulbound status from items and adding item drop and player looting in PVP. 3. Change the mechanics of corpse runs so that players respawn at a lifestone type location (spirit healer) instead of running back and respawning at their corpse. 4. Free for all PVP so there are not 2 factions but it's a guild/individual based war.
Make a server with rules changes such as these and you will see how insanely popular they become. Players want to fight vs other guilds on the world server,"own" instances and towns, Not care so much about their gear because they can drop it or loot stuff off other players in PVP. Players want to be able to PVP all night, 24 hours a day 7 days a week and that is exactly what would be going on on a server like this one. The current game server types suck. There are PVE and PVP which are basically exactly the same. With flying mounts there is really no freaking difference between PVP and PVE servers. It sucks.
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Currently playing:wow/war
Retired:,runescape,swg,
everquest2,lotro