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Jeff Anderson on the Endgame
Jackdog
Member UncommonPosts: 6,321
gamernode.com/PC/Previews/2949-We-speak-with-Jeff-Anderson-CEO-of-Turbine-Inc/index.html
Brendon: I know having spoken to a few other publishers and developers there are a few companies who have their MMOs future planned out where they know, "At this point we're going to release an expansion, by this point we'll be working on the sequel, etc." so I was curious, do you guys have something internally where you have a rough guideline with where you want the game to end up or maybe peak, or are you just going along with it and seeing how long you can keep it going?
Jeff: Which one, for Lord of the Rings?
Yeah.
Okay, I'm not going to be judgmental about other people's plans, but I don't think you ever launch a game and begin talking about when it's going to go away. Let me use that as a segue for my next personal issue.
(Laughs) Go right ahead.
(Laughs) Sorry. I also get asked the other question which is "Tell us what the end-game of Lord of the Rings Online is." And I do, right? I tell them you want raids, we got raids. You want pvp, we got pvp. You want collectible armor sets for high end content great, we got that too. You want housing, we're putting that in.
So we got...you want endgame, we got endgame. But my problem with the question, is that why the heck are you asking me about the endgame for an online product? I've been working on Asheron's Call for nearly a decade now, and we've put out 80 updates for the product. It's a constant opportunity to provide episodic content for our players. I don't subscribe to the approach which is, "Hey you know what, we'll put out a game, two years later we'll throw out an expansion pack, and by the way we've just announced we're going to do a new RTS game or whatever it is that we're going to do, so all we'll do in the meantime is pocket your money." We believe that it's almost an obligation of its own to be putting constant content out for the product.
These players are looking for updates to the game because that's what they're subscribing for. Why do you want to go through the same quests for the same race for four or five years? Our approach is -- you know what, I don't understand what the other company's model is where they feel like they can just pocket people's money and be okay with that and not give a lot back to the community, but we're about giving back to the players. They're the people who are looking for and paying for new stuff. The notion of -- and this is just a personal pet peeve -- of going "You know Blizzard's endgame..." Well, what are you talking about? Why is there an end game for an online product? I wish someone could explain that one to me.
I'd love to go on a panel with one of them or something and have that explained, you know what exactly their plan means.
For us, we're totally focused. D&D [Online] today -- whether it's your thing or not your thing Brendon (laughs)--is 60% larger than when we launched it a year ago. Asheron's Call is hugely larger than when we launched it. And you look at what we're doing right now, just the update we're putting out for Evendim is six million square meters of space, or about 1/10 the size of the existing product. Between the Summer Solstice we're putting out, the huge monster play update we're putting out at the end of the summer, the housing and new region we're putting out in October -- it's just, you know, huge. I think...I think that's how it should be in this business. I don't understand why people feel like it's okay to sit back and play other products, you know, and not get updates. Regular significant updates from the publishers.
I think that was the way it used to be, and if other publishers want to just sit back and collect the annuity -- and that's how they refer to their players, as annuities. We don't get annuities, we get players, right?
Well, anyway, that's my pet peeve (laughs).
I miss DAoC
Comments
They have to weather two big releases (AOC and WAR) in the next year, but by the that time
they should have add enough to LOTRO for the subscribers to want to stay.
I think that in a year LOTRO will be considered a completely different game that it is now.
The music system changes that will be put in next week are a nice step in that direction.
LOTRO offers little things like tag, freeze tag, pie eating contests, music, etc. They want
the game to be more than just getting gear or gaining xp.
Not really. They've still got 8 million players. End Game doesn't mean what he is making it out to be. End Game content is the "Latest Content Out" at the time. Just like MC was "End Game" at the time, yet new "End Game" is added. When LoTR puts in these "big" changes, what then? What "big" changes do they have after that? LoTR's story is written. There is nothing "new" that can come from the LoTR story, unlike Warcraft, which can practically add anything. Eventually WoW will have player housing, I am sure, but things take time.
And what's wrong with releasing an RTS? The MOST WANTED RTS SEQUAL of ALL TIME? It was really stupid and ignorant for him to say such a dumb thing. There is probably nothing Blizzard has sold that hasn't beat LoTR in terms of copies sold.
Not really. They've still got 8 million players. End Game doesn't mean what he is making it out to be. End Game content is the "Latest Content Out" at the time. Just like MC was "End Game" at the time, yet new "End Game" is added. When LoTR puts in these "big" changes, what then? What "big" changes do they have after that? LoTR's story is written. There is nothing "new" that can come from the LoTR story, unlike Warcraft, which can practically add anything. Eventually WoW will have player housing, I am sure, but things take time.
And what's wrong with releasing an RTS? The MOST WANTED RTS SEQUAL of ALL TIME? It was really stupid and ignorant for him to say such a dumb thing. There is probably nothing Blizzard has sold that hasn't beat LoTR in terms of copies sold.
While I am sure that WoW has outsold LoTRO by far and will continue to do so you should read the fine print on the next press release where they use the term 8 million accounts. Notice that it will say 8 million accounts created. That includes the one I made 3 years ago and let lapse at the end of the free 30 and all the gold seller accounts and all the free trials etc etc etc. Most estimates of current paying subscribers is about half that amount. That being said WoW will continue to out sell LoTRO simply because WoW is aimed at a much younger audience. Both the lore and the graphics style is geared toward a teen age audience whose computers will not run more advanced graphical games. I would love to see hard figures but I would guess WoW's typical subscriber is around 15 years of age.
believe it or not LoTRO is a MMORPG with a story on the side. Only my main has done any of the epic line of the quests. You can play your character just as in any other MMORPG, the story line is just icing on the cake. Tasty icing to be sure but you can take it or leave it.
I miss DAoC
And a crap housing system in October? Yay!
But the idea of what he talks about is great, that is how it should be.
RIP Orc Choppa
The problem is, people aren't understanding the "end game" philosophy that there "isn't an endgame".
There is a written story that unfolds with additional content and expansions. There is no "ok i'm max lvl the only thing to do is raid". You could raid. Or you could do any number of new quests added. or you can just grab your lute and go to the inn and find a jam partner or you can go and do Monster Play pvp if you'd like.
Point is this is an ongoing game with ongoing content. But so many people are stuck with the idea that there is an "endgame" and that being the highest lvl matters because "that's when you can do the good stuff", when the only thing that matters is a story driven game is the story and the diversions you want to do.
You get these players who are rushing to max level and their is nothing for them to do because all they know is levelling. This is a casual player's game with casual content. One of the few games I've ever played where it's ok to just "be".
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Yes really. In two years, WoW has put out precious little content other than a handful of raids, and only one expansion that increased the total landmass by only 25%, brought nothing new to the table, and not much content other than a bazillion more reps for us to grind over the next year or more before they do anything else. How many expansions and content updates has EQ2 put out in the same time period? LOTRO is barely over a month since release and they're preparing the first content update. That's why he's doing a little Blizz-flaming.
Oh, and WoW doesn't have 8 million players, they have 8 million total accounts created since launch.
QFT! While some may have considered me "hardcore" in WoW (raided a few times weekly, everything except Naxx before I left, while simultaneously very busy in TBC closed beta until TBC launch), to me hardcore is an attitude. LOTRO is a lot of fun, and it's enjoyable to just "be" as you put it, explore the world, participate in whatever you feel like, while adventuring and leveling as well. I never saw the point in rushing through the levels just to get to level cap especially if you're not into raiding or pvp anyway. Rushing through a game that's just been released? That's just stupid, there's obviously going to be very little for you to do, meanwhile you missed most of the game in your mad rush to reach "the end."
Jeff's main point is that we all have a definition of "end game" that has been handed down to us from EQ to WoW to Vanguard. He has a different definition, but will also provide us the traditional end game content as well.
New regions through out the year in free expansions means that unlike WoW, where Instances and PvP were the only new content for (over) two years as people waited for TBC, the LotRO game world will be continually expanding. I also expect they will add quests to existing zones. The game will not be stagnant and will offer continual expansion.
In that context, "end game" content will be something that just holds you over until the next free update.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
I think he's saying people should think about having fun instead of "winning". People focused on endgame are typically focused on winning. Took a while for me to figure this out. I played AD&D then MUDs then MMOs. And I used to play with the attitude of winning. The same could be said of sports. When younger the focus is often on winning when later some of us start to think maybe we should focus on just having fun. I played soccer for my college but I had more fun just playing pickup games of sand volleyball with the fellas from the dorm. And what is fun? Raph Koster's paper on Theory of Fun struck a chord with me and I think it's a worthwhile read for anyone in MMOs, but maybe even anyone in general.
So figure out what is fun for you and see how the MMO can be used to provide that fun. Saying raiding or PvP is too shallow of an answer. New content doesn't need to be endgame content focused on conquering something over again with level n or <put new boss mob name here>.
SWG - Starsider (retired?)
EQ2 - Oasis
LotRO - Vilya
Actually, not to put to fine a point on it but IF you read and believe Blizzards press release and it's Subscriber Definition it does in fact specifically say that when they count to a number such as 8 Million (as it was back in January) they do not count canceled or expired accounts, promotional "free" time and or expired time cards. So it's not accounts created since launch.
When they say 8 Million, they actually mean 8 Million players have accessed the game within 30 days or have at least a paying account.
Link is here: http://www.blizzard.com/press/070111.shtml
And quote is here:
World of Warcraft's Subscriber Definition
"World of Warcraft subscribers include individuals who have paid a subscription fee or have an active prepaid card to play World of Warcraft, as well as those who have purchased the game and are within their free month of access. Internet Game Room players who have accessed the game over the last thirty days are also counted as subscribers. The above definition excludes all players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or cancelled subscriptions, and expired prepaid cards. Subscribers in licensees' territories are defined along the same rules"
Again, that's "IF" you believe them .
Important Information regarding Posting and You
Actually, not to put to fine a point on it but IF you read and believe Blizzards press release and it's Subscriber Definition it does in fact specifically say that when they count to a number such as 8 Million (as it was back in January) they do not count canceled or expired accounts, promotional "free" time and or expired time cards. So it's not accounts created since launch.
When they say 8 Million, they actually mean 8 Million players have accessed the game within 30 days or have at least a paying account.
Link is here: http://www.blizzard.com/press/070111.shtml
And quote is here:
World of Warcraft's Subscriber Definition
"World of Warcraft subscribers include individuals who have paid a subscription fee or have an active prepaid card to play World of Warcraft, as well as those who have purchased the game and are within their free month of access. Internet Game Room players who have accessed the game over the last thirty days are also counted as subscribers. The above definition excludes all players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or cancelled subscriptions, and expired prepaid cards. Subscribers in licensees' territories are defined along the same rules"
Again, that's "IF" you believe them .
Thanks for the info and the link, I stand corrected. I see no reason to doubt the validity of the 8 million number in that case, Blizzard has always been a pretty stand up company as far as I can tell. I may not care for the game but I have never had a problem with the company.I miss DAoC
Good catch. I was in the process of leaving WoW just as that announcement came out so I never bothered to read the fine print. Ya got me, I'll take responsibility for my own mistake.
Basically he is not catering to raiders while making sure peoples who hate raiding with a passion will hate his product (since there is raiding after all)?
So, he just make sure there are as little players interested as possible despite the franchise strong appeal?
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I just like how it's cool for Anderson to be unprofessional, and show his ass in an interview, and the unwashed masses start cheering, yet when McQuaid did the same thing, everyone hissed and booed, and said he was a douchebag for badmouthing Blizzard, and/or Turbine.
I hope you know I wasn't trying to rub anything in or catch you at anything, it's undestandable why people would think differently regarding wow's numbers. There's so much information floating around everywhere, it's hard to know's what's what most of the time.
I have nothing but respect for you guys and your postings, just wanted to make sure the official statement was put out there. Sorry for getting in the middle of the convo everyone.
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Not at all, your post was well-written and I didn't get any impression of flames or anything from you. I was simply owning up to my own misinformation.
McQuaid was going "off-the-cuff" getting on his soap-box, preaching about his "Vision" for months and months, often indicated (either directly or otherwise, from what I read) that Vanguard would be the "WoW Killer" and on and on and on. The guy had dissintery of the fingers. I think alot of people trashed on him because, basically, they got sick of seeing/hearing it - esp. after how it was at launch and all that's happened since.
Anderson, on the other hand, is being frank about an overall business practice, and how he disagrees with the idea of some "end-game" being an absolute goal, in a genre that is supposed be, by design, essentially endless. He uses WoW / Blizzard as an example because, well, like every other reason WoW is cited - it's arguably the most popular game right now and the easiest to relate to, so the most comparisons are drawn to it.
That said... I agree. The idea of an absolute "end-game" really is something that's become more and more prevalent in newer MMOs; something that MMO players have come to accept - sorta like buggy, incomplete launches. It's an end-game because there's so much "down-time" in between major, or at least significant, content updates that the more active players are actually stuck repeating the same things for a time, waiting for something new to come out. Anderson is saying "That's not the way it should be...", that's not the way they approached it all this time with AC1, and that's not the way they're approaching it with LoTRO.
If you look at the older games like Asheron's Call... there's *tons* to do in that game - people are still playing it from launch to this day, and have no desire of leaving. I know for a fact that there are people in Anarchy Online who, after playing the game - since launch - and having leveled at least one toon to 220 - will still tell you there's so much they haven't seen or done yet. Those are both examples of older-school MMOs that didn't focus on an end-game.. they focused on an overall experience.. not only one that started once you hit end-game and go a-raiding 7 nights a week.
As for the overall experience of a MMO.. .they're certainly designed, as was put very well by another poster here, as a place to "be". If I may borrow a cliche'.. they're about the journey.. not the destination.
I know many newer MMO players don't see it this way, coming to them with the typical console mentality of "winning the game" after 2 weeks, and then putting a speed-run demo up online...
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
snip for brevity
True, the way they said it may have differed, and maybe that makes the difference for people. Perhaps I just see it in more black and white terms. Both persons comments where unprofessional, crass, and unnecessary. Anderson had a perfectly valid point, which he could have just as easily made without trying to gain interweb smartass points by zinging Blizzard. Who, for what it's worth, isn't even the biggest offender when it comes to charging for content. SOE by far is the worst of the bunch with EQ/EQ2, SWG, etc. Blizzard actually put out a fairly large amount of content free of charge. It wasn't episodic like Turbines generally is, but still.
The problem is, people aren't understanding the "end game" philosophy that there "isn't an endgame".
There is a written story that unfolds with additional content and expansions. There is no "ok i'm max lvl the only thing to do is raid". You could raid. Or you could do any number of new quests added. or you can just grab your lute and go to the inn and find a jam partner or you can go and do Monster Play pvp if you'd like.
Point is this is an ongoing game with ongoing content. But so many people are stuck with the idea that there is an "endgame" and that being the highest lvl matters because "that's when you can do the good stuff", when the only thing that matters is a story driven game is the story and the diversions you want to do.
You get these players who are rushing to max level and their is nothing for them to do because all they know is levelling. This is a casual player's game with casual content. One of the few games I've ever played where it's ok to just "be".
Their will be people rushing to the max lvl be it in WoW or LOTR. And once majority of the ppl reach max lvl they either grind or pvp in LOTR which is the same as WoW. And what the raid and pvp WoW is having is also for ppl to play to tide it ovr till the next expansion it, which is still the same as LOTR.
What im trying to say is, in regrads to what Jeff have say, he didnt bring anything new to the "end game". He have spoken nothing.
RIP Orc Choppa
It is different from WoW. Apart from a few dungeons and raid zones and tinkering with stuff, WoW didn't offer any real-world content from release to TBC.
LOTRO offers new zones every 2months or so, so people will always have something new to explore and discover. You will always have people which consume content faster than most people and faster than designers will make it.
Theres a difference between new content updates, and expansions. WoW only did the exapansion, but LOTRO will do both.
That's because Vanguard was a fricking trainwreck and within the first few months imploded on itself, the company basically shut down and was absorbed by the publisher who are planning on merging the servers while LotR actually turned out very good, solid, stable and is probably the best MMO title to release in several years.
Just like anything else, the winners can talk smack, the losers are shut out and ridiculed.