Bsherlock, I can totally understand where you are coming from. I play MUD's and play MMO's as well and see where things are missing that would truly make MMORPG a real RPG. One thing also is that I think a lot of people including ianubisi don't understand is that RP isn't all about how you chat in a game. BTW, Ianubusi it isn't a one sided thing. Your arguments remind me of the arguments about decal in AC. It doesn't have anything to do with how one person wants to play a game. It has to do with game features and what is missing in current RPG's however being MMO's at this point.
But outside of the typical conversation here. I don't really care to play on most RP servers in any MMO. I think a lot out there think for some reason are doing exactly what Ianubusi is complaining about and are to me very obnoxious. All this Hail to thee and Greetings and well met isn't what I call RPing. Or pretending you are doing something that you really aren't doing at all in the game. Infact the game doesn't even support what he is doing...Aka, a town drunk. That may be "role playing", but it isn't RPing like we do in PnP or in MUD's. Infact what we do in MUD's can be done in MMO's but a lot has to be changed to support these features. There are some MMO's out there that plan to create true RPG worlds and one of them, believe it or not is is D&D Online. I can't explain right now what it will contain but I believe there are some information about it with a few interviews that shows some of the concepts that are planned. Also there is one other I know of that plans to reward you with non-combat elements which of course is entwinded with RPing and that is Lejendary Adventures (yes it is spelled correctly, it isn't Legendary) that is being created by Gary Gygax which of course is the same Gary Gygax that has contributed majorly to the creation of the original Dungeons & Dragons and co-founder of TSR. I hear from other resources that there are other MMO's on the workbench planning to introduce an emmersive RP element into the MMO genre. I hear UXO, WarHammer and Van Guard are just to name a few that have this incorporated.
As for now all I see that can fit in any MMO game to date is just the small element that most seem to go over board with in chat. Which is unnecessary and seems to give all gamers the wrong impression on what RP is all about. Infact most behavior of RP in todays MP RPG games seems too much gut wrenching and nauseating at the most. RP doesn't mean speaking Medieval as so to speak. The most that we all can do with the elements we have in todays MMO's is to do this. If you want to speak only IC and not OOC the difference then is not how you speak or based on your class, but more as to the world you play in. RP in a typical MMO would consist of talking like we always do, but don't talk about things outside of the world. Don't talk about coordinates to get some where, but rather say one km or mile North of a location that is known. Talk about going to a certain dungeon and and killing the lead creature their for a purpose that is based on why it must die. Not because it gives up a 5+ leather armor that has certain magical abilities and that the drop rate is such and such. Now, there is nothing wrong with taking OOC, just talk that in a tell or if your group is ok with OOC then you just use ooc: How often does it drop? However, in MMO's their isn't enough elements to support or encourage IC. IC is so lacking in MMO's that people get carried away SO BADLY that they start doing what I call Halucinating RPing. That is where most poeple that never have RPed or know RP differently, start to think that RP is for NERDS or that most online RPer's have a lose screw. Most then just say.....OOOOKKKK!!!! Um, I got to go, mom is calling me for dinner...(guy logs out and goes to create a char on the "NORMAL" servers.
Now as for the example of what Bsherlock gave. It is a prime example of what I know that Turbine is planning to incorporate. It is going to be a different beast all together compared to all the other MMO's currently released and future ones at that. NwN tries to incorporate some of this, but I think it would require much more than what the bioware engine can handle, plus just to see some of this work in NWN you would have to have 2 DM's for each played character.
However, bottom line here is....RP is stilll alive and kickin' hard in most MUD's including Dragon Realms and Gemstone IV. Plus all the groups all over the world that play Warhammer and all the other worlds in PnP that is played on the net and at your local Mall. As for what Ianubisi, I can understand his point of view and would say the same thing if all I knew of what RP is, from what is used on the net is just disgusting. Then again I think if Ianubisi saw a lot of what RPing is really he will find it to be a totally different animal or what RPG means. Then of course he, like a lot of others will see what there is out there calling itself RPG doesn't deserve the title...
Dont' worry. We are getting there and within a few years, most of these MMO communities will die out and be replaced with of what I call a more genre specific hmm.... Give it 2006 I say. Like everyday, the world is changing. There will be truimphant screams in one world while other worlds crash in a burning and pocket breaking tyranny.
Originally posted by Rudnoc As for what Ianubisi, I can understand his point of view and would say the same thing if all I knew of what RP is, from what is used on the net is just disgusting. Then again I think if Ianubisi saw a lot of what RPing is really he will find it to be a totally different animal or what RPG means. Then of course he, like a lot of others will see what there is out there calling itself RPG doesn't deserve the title...
I've been playing PnP since 1975, so don't presume to suggest that I don't understand what RPG is.
please, think before you post, stop been an idiot. If YOU want to kill people for no reason and want to be a total idiot, and a so called n00b how abvout you go play an Online FPS? did you think about that? well, is the developers fault for been so stupid on creating PK, and I mean why can't they create areas where you can PK anyone? and is also the players fault for been a Jackass.
Originally posted by knives22 please, think before you post, stop been an idiot. If YOU want to kill people for no reason and want to be a total idiot, and a so called n00b how abvout you go play an Online FPS? did you think about that? well, is the developers fault for been so stupid on creating PK, and I mean why can't they create areas where you can PK anyone? and is also the players fault for been a Jackass.
You've got quite a bit of growing up to do, knives22.
Well, read quite a bit of them Posts (some are pretty darn long and i am kinda tired at the moment heh) but anyway - where is the Roleplay in todays MMORPGS ?
Not in the Game - in ourselves. If the Game doesnt give you enough chances to RP or interact with itself, then its the People you have to seek out. At least thats what my experience is from the time i play Everquest for almost 4 years now (not pointing out with this that i "know" things - just stating how long i play )
If ye like, take a peek at our RP Guilds on Tunare at
you are actually role-playing by creating a character and start to talking to people. Well, and games are entertainment, if that provides entertainment for the people out there, why not? .. but i really think it's impossible for so many players online to follow a storyline. That's almost impossible, imagine you play Final Fantasy 7 online. So you gona have a thousand clouds going after a thousand sephiroths? In FFXI, look, there is a story, but it's all for bullcrap. All you do in the game is what you do in almost every MMORPG, train, get better skills, get higher lvl, get better eqquipment etc..
Originally posted by ianubisi How do you propose you tell a story and make it fun for tens of thousands of people, from all over the world, at varying points in their character's development who are all coming and going and wildly different times of day? What you expect isn't ever going to be available to you in a Massively Multiplayer game. If you want good storytelling/roleplaying then find a good group of people and site down face-to-face and play.
Frist of all the story is what makes the game. Not the looting and pillaging and constant banter of "D00d joo r0xx0rz". RPG is part of the title. Quests and community are a part of the immersion. When MMORPG's came out it was all about immersion and rp and trying to help your fellow guildies and your fellow guildies returning the favor. Not because they had to but because it was part of the game and they wanted to. The whole "face to face and play" thing went out in the 80's.
The reason RP has met with a slow painful death over the past few years is quite simple. The influx of kids who have no home training and no respect for anyone else but themselves destroys the immersion factor as well as the reason to even play the game. Greed and self serving peckerheads continue to turn MMORPG's into MMOG's. Now I'm not saying that kids are all to blame. I'm sure there's a few adults that have logged on with nothing better to do with their time than to ruin someone elses evening. However the majority of the kids I've seen playing these games absolutely love to piss people off. Especially if there isn't any pvp and no consequences.
If RP is what you want then get on a rp server and pray that rp is enforced. I love to rp but in this day and age it's not feasible. Too many clowns running around talking trash about rp'ers and giving everyone hell to make their day miserable. *shrug* I can't count the number of times I've ganked someone after they talked trash because I said thee or nay only to have the come back and give me the tried and true "I'm gonna log my main and pwn joo" or "If this was real life I'd kick your ass".
Add to this that most people think rp'ers are the nerds of the online world. Which isn't the case. We are just people who want the immersion factor that the game is "SUPPOSED" to provide.
Originally posted by Rychean Originally posted by ianubisi How do you propose you tell a story and make it fun for tens of thousands of people, from all over the world, at varying points in their character's development who are all coming and going and wildly different times of day? What you expect isn't ever going to be available to you in a Massively Multiplayer game. If you want good storytelling/roleplaying then find a good group of people and site down face-to-face and play.Frist of all the story is what makes the game. Not the looting and pillaging and constant banter of "D00d joo r0xx0rz". RPG is part of the title. Quests and community are a part of the immersion. When MMORPG's came out it was all about immersion and rp and trying to help your fellow guildies and your fellow guildies returning the favor. Not because they had to but because it was part of the game and they wanted to. The whole "face to face and play" thing went out in the 80's. The reason RP has met with a slow painful death over the past few years is quite simple. The influx of kids who have no home training and no respect for anyone else but themselves destroys the immersion factor as well as the reason to even play the game. Greed and self serving peckerheads continue to turn MMORPG's into MMOG's. Now I'm not saying that kids are all to blame. I'm sure there's a few adults that have logged on with nothing better to do with their time than to ruin someone elses evening. However the majority of the kids I've seen playing these games absolutely love to piss people off. Especially if there isn't any pvp and no consequences. If RP is what you want then get on a rp server and pray that rp is enforced. I love to rp but in this day and age it's not feasible. Too many clowns running around talking trash about rp'ers and giving everyone hell to make their day miserable. *shrug* I can't count the number of times I've ganked someone after they talked trash because I said thee or nay only to have the come back and give me the tried and true "I'm gonna log my main and pwn joo" or "If this was real life I'd kick your ass". Add to this that most people think rp'ers are the nerds of the online world. Which isn't the case. We are just people who want the immersion factor that the game is "SUPPOSED" to provide. Just my thoughts.
You aren't addressing HOW this can be done. How do you expect to be able to tell a compelling story across tens-of-thousands of players in different timezones, at varying points in their character's development?
If you really care about this issue then be proactive and creative in addressing it. Rather than give postmortems on why attempts have failed, provide some examples of how you think it can succeed. Address the issues involved with answers, rather than decrying the faults you perceive.
If one wants rp'ing in a video game, they should never play a MMORPG. They should really only play single player RP games, because in a single player (or 3-6 player) game, you and your group are the heroes of the universe. world, galaxy, etc...etc...etc...
I no longer play MMORPG's because of the fact that I cannot totally be immersed in the gameworld. There are just too many people playing for the wrong reasons (my opinion) in MMORPG's. They either play for uber loot, random pk-ing (griefers), or to chat.
Since I've gone back to my single player rpg's (KOTOR, Morrowind, NWN, Diablo, etc...) I have found that I am enjoying gaming much more than ever.
To sum it up...When you have 100-400k people all playing the same rpg at the same time, there is no way to police all these players into only rp'ing, and therefore the game play suffers...just my opinion...Xaldor
Originally posted by ianubisi How do you propose you tell a story and make it fun for tens of thousands of people, from all over the world, at varying points in their character's development who are all coming and going and wildly different times of day? What you expect isn't ever going to be available to you in a Massively Multiplayer game. If you want good storytelling/roleplaying then find a good group of people and site down face-to-face and play.
Frist of all the story is what makes the game. Not the looting and pillaging and constant banter of "D00d joo r0xx0rz". RPG is part of the title. Quests and community are a part of the immersion. When MMORPG's came out it was all about immersion and rp and trying to help your fellow guildies and your fellow guildies returning the favor. Not because they had to but because it was part of the game and they wanted to. The whole "face to face and play" thing went out in the 80's. The reason RP has met with a slow painful death over the past few years is quite simple. The influx of kids who have no home training and no respect for anyone else but themselves destroys the immersion factor as well as the reason to even play the game. Greed and self serving peckerheads continue to turn MMORPG's into MMOG's. Now I'm not saying that kids are all to blame. I'm sure there's a few adults that have logged on with nothing better to do with their time than to ruin someone elses evening. However the majority of the kids I've seen playing these games absolutely love to piss people off. Especially if there isn't any pvp and no consequences. If RP is what you want then get on a rp server and pray that rp is enforced. I love to rp but in this day and age it's not feasible. Too many clowns running around talking trash about rp'ers and giving everyone hell to make their day miserable. *shrug* I can't count the number of times I've ganked someone after they talked trash because I said thee or nay only to have the come back and give me the tried and true "I'm gonna log my main and pwn joo" or "If this was real life I'd kick your ass". Add to this that most people think rp'ers are the nerds of the online world. Which isn't the case. We are just people who want the immersion factor that the game is "SUPPOSED" to provide. Just my thoughts.
You aren't addressing HOW this can be done. How do you expect to be able to tell a compelling story across tens-of-thousands of players in different timezones, at varying points in their character's development?
If you really care about this issue then be proactive and creative in addressing it. Rather than give postmortems on why attempts have failed, provide some examples of how you think it can succeed. Address the issues involved with answers, rather than decrying the faults you perceive.
In truth there is no way to do that. What your asking or trying to get someone to come up with is impossible. There is still room to use one's friggin imagination for Christ's sake. Character development is about ones own personality and imagination. Or lack thereof. When I first started playing eq I could immerse myself into the world and follow story lines and enjoy myself. It wasn't a grind. It was fun. Quests etc. These days it's a race to see who can get to the highest lvl the fastest.
Not to mention the influx of dis-respectful jerks who destroy everyone's immersion factor without fear of punishment.
Quick way to fix the speed leveling is to have these people do quests in order to advance to a certain lvl. Everyone says they'll play how they want to play because they pay same as everyone else. Guess what? The slogan used to be. "Your in our world now" It should go back to just that. Character development altho a grind at times can be made to follow a certain path and deal with a story line of some such. I know it sounds like communism but without some sort of control over the speed of leveling it's all just ph4t lewt and leet dudez. Don't get me wrong I hate lvl grinds but leveling is part of any mmorpg. Steep level grinds make for bored players and easy lvl grinds make for bored players. So there must be a happy medium.
A solid community and accountability plays a large part in immersion and the rp factor. Way back when there was accountability for ones actions. If one person ninja looted or ks'd or was a prick in general it got around fast. I knew one person that couldn't get groups, guilds or help with anything just because earlier in his characters life he was a big time ks'er and harrasser and he had very little thought of what his actions may lead to. Accountability of ones actions played a huge part in the community and immersion. It made you want to have a good reputation so it made you build your characters personality based on how you wanted to be treated. i.e. you treated everyone how you wanted to be treated which pretty much equals respect. These types of things helped with the RP world in general. There was room to rp when the community was tight and everyone respected everyone elses boundaries.
Unfortunately the things you've asked me to come up with constructive ideas for are just not possible in this day and age. Unless your running your own gaming server and your in charge of character dev and rp rules.
It all boils down to one simple statement. Without Immersion, Community and respect for one another RP is damn near an impossibility. Without the RP it's MMOG. That equation = boring to alot of people and just the opposite to others. Depends on play style I guess.
I will agree that at points Ianubisi can be a little.. *cough* but this is another one of those occasions where I agree with him.
First of all Knives22, your personal attacks are childish, please if oyu want to launch personal attacks get into politics or go to mpogd, we dont need that crap here.
Next on the agenda is the fact MMORPGS and not MUDS Personally, I dont mind some tabletop gaming, I also admit to laughing at the people who do it every night, and live life acting like there character.
With 10,000 people playing its hard to make a story that will catch all there interested, and involved every single one of them.
In a perfect world, that would work, but in a perfect world we wouldnt have slaver, poverty, guns, or flamers. So really, its a losing argument, go play a mud, and enjoy it since thats what you seem to want to play. Ill go back to playing Planetside and blow the crap out of other people while talking to my friends about my day.
PS, Knives, personal attacks are just childish, your argument was good untill you started with the "if you ever went to school" or telling him to grow up and such. Although I will agree, Ianubisi you words were a little hard to swallow sometimes becuase of your attitude (no offence really, its just you have a gift for getting your point across but stepping on a lot of toes)
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
Originally posted by Munki Although I will agree, Ianubisi you words were a little hard to swallow sometimes becuase of your attitude (no offence really, its just you have a gift for getting your point across but stepping on a lot of toes)
I'm gona say something. I don really like to call those games MMORPG. I don't even like to call games "games". Many developers are designing "games" instead of a software that provides entertainment. Games, oh games, games must have this must have that .. blah.. and roleplaying ? Look at the people who wana make online games now. What do they say? " I WANA MAKE A MMORPG " They thing MMORPG as a genre of "online games now". Means that their games must be able to lvl and kill and gain exp and skill. etc, no developers really care about roleplaying. They say, to make the game intresting, it must have quests. Then they create some dumb background story. And the quest has nothing to do with anything, quest are now just tasks for you to do to get rewards. It has no meaning, man come on,tell me what's the point of deliverying some stupid parcel to some stupid king far away?
Other games like EQ have great RP servers. for example on EQ's rp server they only allow one character per account to join. they have also removed the common language to force players to speak their own (no trolls can't talk to humans unless the human has learned the trolls language. What im really saying is all the devs have to do is add a good RP server like this to more games.
----------------------------- Listen Asmodeeus, seven years ago, Ultima Online didn't even have those pathetic "quests" that you refer to or those "professions" of ninja, samurai, necromancer, and paladin. Nor did it have any of the neon crap, or bug mounts. It didn't even have any "combat moves." You turned on attack and jousted with simplistic swings. It was a better game then. if you can't guess why then just uninstall the thing and move along. - Crabby
For me I think it got to the point where I could really identify with my character. I leveled and Elvaan in FFXI for nearly a year and I've just recently retired it. In order to keep in contact with the friends I made on Titan we exchanged email addys and talk on IM's. In my own head I keep referring to myself as my character name (sounds sick, eh?) and I find myself forcing myself to use their real names. If that's not roleplaying I'm not sure what is. Yeah I don't talk in game with "thee" or "thou hast..." but I became really personal with my character. I took the time to make him well rounded and develeoped (about as much as you can in FFXI, blah) and budgeted his money. It was pretty hard to walk away from him and I even chose a nice place to "bury" him for my final log off. I guess it comes down to more "What is your definition of role playing" I consider myself a RPer even though I act my part with modern text and thinking.
The little irony is that many MMO players complain about the grind, yet that is what most of us end up doing. Is that all current MMORPGs offer? I am starting to believe so, or at least that these games are too massive for roleplaying to be possible. Maybe the MMOs fall into a glorified Diablo category, while a true Online RolePlaying Game would be a cross between Guild Wars and NWN. I personally don't think roleplaying will ever be widely accepted or successful in an MMORPG. MMOs are all about the levels and the loot. If they weren't, Ebaying of items wouldn't be as successful as it is and people wouldn't race for the highest level or feel the need to dupe/hack just to get ahead. In EQ people put up with the grind, now we ask for the grind. Until we stop asking, devs are going to keep making the most time-intensive, monthly-fee milking games they can.
feature that in my opinon would help the rp a lot.(a lot of those feature would be hard to implement) -quest:no premade quest( what the pupose on doing things that a lot of people have done before and lot will do after me) . -charatcer avancament: skill based.what you do make your character, you are not bounds to a class , also you should not have to fight monster if you dont want, i mean you could do many other things then fight like being a politican for exemple.skill would not be limited but stas would be limited to your race. -monster: -no spawn(they need to breed) - when they die you can loot what they where no more no less (and if you want you can cut it and take bone meet etc) -World should be huge with a lot of things to see and do - good storyline so that the player can fit themself in it -dynamic world that is shaped by the player (what you do could change the world) -open pvp with big consequence for being a criminal -death: could be rezed if brough to a healer(maybe some other way could be used to) else its permanent.
-Chat: you can only talk with people near enough to hear you.
things like dynamic world would need insane computer for server and reallly high connection speed so with technologie we have now it would be almost imposible to make.There is a game that exist that we cans say is dynamic in is own way since player build the things that are in it. its Second life, every things is on the server you connect to it with a 20 meg client.It work well but you have to wait a while so the things dowload and for this reason for a mmorpg it would need a relly high bandwith to be playable, so for now its not possible but maybe one day lol
many of the other featurs like perma death would not appel to most of the people but in a role play perspective would be needed.(its fun to be a hero but are you ready to die like a hero?)
It was only some idea on many i have and i did not have the time to develop and explain them.
I didn't go through and read everything, but I'll add my small of thought on this. If someone already said anything like this I'm sorry.
I don't feel that you EVER get a good RP feeling out of a mass market game. There are just to many people. Granted you can go about trying to get away from this by forming/join a PURE RP guild but you still won't get it fully. Its hard (for me at least) to RP even with an RP'er when everyone else around me is not. The world needs to be RP.
To get that old Table Top RP feeling back I think the best bet to ever getting it is going to come from smaller games or just go back to table top. I'm going to shamelessly toss in a plug for a game in VERY early development, that I think (and hope) could pull it off, because when I first looked into them and considered joining the team they were (and still are I believe) mainly focused at bring the RP back. The game is called "ONCE: Open Source MMORPG". Google it and take a look.
This is not your eq2/wow/doom3 eye candy game, and probably never will be. Its being made by people on their free time, working for free. Screw it, I'm not going to spew out details though because now I'm wanding off the subject of my post.
But basicly, what I'm trying to get at, I don't feel that any mass market MMO will ever have the RPG that we all crave. Just to many people.
it all depends on your defintion of and rpg. just about anything is an rpg. the sims is an rpg. basically any game where ou assume the identity of someone else is an rpg. if you want to get more in depth than runscape is very much an rpg. but games like WoW are still rpgs even though they are not as hardcore as some other games may be.
Comments
Bsherlock, I can totally understand where you are coming from. I play MUD's and play MMO's as well and see where things are missing that would truly make MMORPG a real RPG. One thing also is that I think a lot of people including ianubisi don't understand is that RP isn't all about how you chat in a game. BTW, Ianubusi it isn't a one sided thing. Your arguments remind me of the arguments about decal in AC. It doesn't have anything to do with how one person wants to play a game. It has to do with game features and what is missing in current RPG's however being MMO's at this point.
But outside of the typical conversation here. I don't really care to play on most RP servers in any MMO. I think a lot out there think for some reason are doing exactly what Ianubusi is complaining about and are to me very obnoxious. All this Hail to thee and Greetings and well met isn't what I call RPing. Or pretending you are doing something that you really aren't doing at all in the game. Infact the game doesn't even support what he is doing...Aka, a town drunk. That may be "role playing", but it isn't RPing like we do in PnP or in MUD's. Infact what we do in MUD's can be done in MMO's but a lot has to be changed to support these features. There are some MMO's out there that plan to create true RPG worlds and one of them, believe it or not is is D&D Online. I can't explain right now what it will contain but I believe there are some information about it with a few interviews that shows some of the concepts that are planned. Also there is one other I know of that plans to reward you with non-combat elements which of course is entwinded with RPing and that is Lejendary Adventures (yes it is spelled correctly, it isn't Legendary) that is being created by Gary Gygax which of course is the same Gary Gygax that has contributed majorly to the creation of the original Dungeons & Dragons and co-founder of TSR. I hear from other resources that there are other MMO's on the workbench planning to introduce an emmersive RP element into the MMO genre. I hear UXO, WarHammer and Van Guard are just to name a few that have this incorporated.
As for now all I see that can fit in any MMO game to date is just the small element that most seem to go over board with in chat. Which is unnecessary and seems to give all gamers the wrong impression on what RP is all about. Infact most behavior of RP in todays MP RPG games seems too much gut wrenching and nauseating at the most. RP doesn't mean speaking Medieval as so to speak. The most that we all can do with the elements we have in todays MMO's is to do this. If you want to speak only IC and not OOC the difference then is not how you speak or based on your class, but more as to the world you play in. RP in a typical MMO would consist of talking like we always do, but don't talk about things outside of the world. Don't talk about coordinates to get some where, but rather say one km or mile North of a location that is known. Talk about going to a certain dungeon and and killing the lead creature their for a purpose that is based on why it must die. Not because it gives up a 5+ leather armor that has certain magical abilities and that the drop rate is such and such. Now, there is nothing wrong with taking OOC, just talk that in a tell or if your group is ok with OOC then you just use ooc: How often does it drop? However, in MMO's their isn't enough elements to support or encourage IC. IC is so lacking in MMO's that people get carried away SO BADLY that they start doing what I call Halucinating RPing. That is where most poeple that never have RPed or know RP differently, start to think that RP is for NERDS or that most online RPer's have a lose screw. Most then just say.....OOOOKKKK!!!! Um, I got to go, mom is calling me for dinner...(guy logs out and goes to create a char on the "NORMAL" servers.
Now as for the example of what Bsherlock gave. It is a prime example of what I know that Turbine is planning to incorporate. It is going to be a different beast all together compared to all the other MMO's currently released and future ones at that. NwN tries to incorporate some of this, but I think it would require much more than what the bioware engine can handle, plus just to see some of this work in NWN you would have to have 2 DM's for each played character.
However, bottom line here is....RP is stilll alive and kickin' hard in most MUD's including Dragon Realms and Gemstone IV. Plus all the groups all over the world that play Warhammer and all the other worlds in PnP that is played on the net and at your local Mall. As for what Ianubisi, I can understand his point of view and would say the same thing if all I knew of what RP is, from what is used on the net is just disgusting. Then again I think if Ianubisi saw a lot of what RPing is really he will find it to be a totally different animal or what RPG means. Then of course he, like a lot of others will see what there is out there calling itself RPG doesn't deserve the title...
Dont' worry. We are getting there and within a few years, most of these MMO communities will die out and be replaced with of what I call a more genre specific
hmm.... Give it 2006 I say. Like everyday, the world is changing. There will be truimphant screams in one world while other worlds crash in a burning and pocket breaking tyranny.
I've been playing PnP since 1975, so don't presume to suggest that I don't understand what RPG is.
Again, it's the hubris of the righteous.
please, think before you post, stop been an idiot. If YOU want to kill people for no reason and want to be a total idiot, and a so called n00b how abvout you go play an Online FPS? did you think about that? well, is the developers fault for been so stupid on creating PK, and I mean why can't they create areas where you can PK anyone? and is also the players fault for been a Jackass.
You've got quite a bit of growing up to do, knives22.
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A small bat
screamed out in fright
"Turn on the dark!
I'm afraid of the light"
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A small bat
screamed out in fright
"Turn on the dark!
I'm afraid of the light"
Hello yall !
Well, read quite a bit of them Posts (some are pretty darn long and i am kinda tired at the moment heh) but anyway - where is the Roleplay in todays MMORPGS ?
Not in the Game - in ourselves. If the Game doesnt give you enough chances to RP or interact with itself, then its the People you have to seek out. At least thats what my experience is from the time i play Everquest for almost 4 years now (not pointing out with this that i "know" things - just stating how long i play
)
If ye like, take a peek at our RP Guilds on Tunare at
http://p085.ezboard.com/bwindriders
And read through the FAQs and the like. I find it a good way how to handle things, but well, thats just my 2 cp
Nice try, guys. Have fun flaming.
Frist of all the story is what makes the game. Not the looting and pillaging and constant banter of "D00d joo r0xx0rz". RPG is part of the title. Quests and community are a part of the immersion. When MMORPG's came out it was all about immersion and rp and trying to help your fellow guildies and your fellow guildies returning the favor. Not because they had to but because it was part of the game and they wanted to. The whole "face to face and play" thing went out in the 80's.
The reason RP has met with a slow painful death over the past few years is quite simple. The influx of kids who have no home training and no respect for anyone else but themselves destroys the immersion factor as well as the reason to even play the game. Greed and self serving peckerheads continue to turn MMORPG's into MMOG's. Now I'm not saying that kids are all to blame. I'm sure there's a few adults that have logged on with nothing better to do with their time than to ruin someone elses evening. However the majority of the kids I've seen playing these games absolutely love to piss people off. Especially if there isn't any pvp and no consequences.
If RP is what you want then get on a rp server and pray that rp is enforced. I love to rp but in this day and age it's not feasible. Too many clowns running around talking trash about rp'ers and giving everyone hell to make their day miserable. *shrug* I can't count the number of times I've ganked someone after they talked trash because I said thee or nay only to have the come back and give me the tried and true "I'm gonna log my main and pwn joo" or "If this was real life I'd kick your ass".
Add to this that most people think rp'ers are the nerds of the online world. Which isn't the case. We are just people who want the immersion factor that the game is "SUPPOSED" to provide.
Just my thoughts.
You aren't addressing HOW this can be done. How do you expect to be able to tell a compelling story across tens-of-thousands of players in different timezones, at varying points in their character's development?
If you really care about this issue then be proactive and creative in addressing it. Rather than give postmortems on why attempts have failed, provide some examples of how you think it can succeed. Address the issues involved with answers, rather than decrying the faults you perceive.
If one wants rp'ing in a video game, they should never play a MMORPG. They should really only play single player RP games, because in a single player (or 3-6 player) game, you and your group are the heroes of the universe. world, galaxy, etc...etc...etc...
I no longer play MMORPG's because of the fact that I cannot totally be immersed in the gameworld. There are just too many people playing for the wrong reasons (my opinion) in MMORPG's. They either play for uber loot, random pk-ing (griefers), or to chat.
Since I've gone back to my single player rpg's (KOTOR, Morrowind, NWN, Diablo, etc...) I have found that I am enjoying gaming much more than ever.
To sum it up...When you have 100-400k people all playing the same rpg at the same time, there is no way to police all these players into only rp'ing, and therefore the game play suffers...just my opinion...Xaldor
You aren't addressing HOW this can be done. How do you expect to be able to tell a compelling story across tens-of-thousands of players in different timezones, at varying points in their character's development?
If you really care about this issue then be proactive and creative in addressing it. Rather than give postmortems on why attempts have failed, provide some examples of how you think it can succeed. Address the issues involved with answers, rather than decrying the faults you perceive.
In truth there is no way to do that. What your asking or trying to get someone to come up with is impossible. There is still room to use one's friggin imagination for Christ's sake. Character development is about ones own personality and imagination. Or lack thereof. When I first started playing eq I could immerse myself into the world and follow story lines and enjoy myself. It wasn't a grind. It was fun. Quests etc. These days it's a race to see who can get to the highest lvl the fastest.
Not to mention the influx of dis-respectful jerks who destroy everyone's immersion factor without fear of punishment.
Quick way to fix the speed leveling is to have these people do quests in order to advance to a certain lvl. Everyone says they'll play how they want to play because they pay same as everyone else. Guess what? The slogan used to be. "Your in our world now" It should go back to just that. Character development altho a grind at times can be made to follow a certain path and deal with a story line of some such. I know it sounds like communism but without some sort of control over the speed of leveling it's all just ph4t lewt and leet dudez. Don't get me wrong I hate lvl grinds but leveling is part of any mmorpg. Steep level grinds make for bored players and easy lvl grinds make for bored players. So there must be a happy medium.
A solid community and accountability plays a large part in immersion and the rp factor. Way back when there was accountability for ones actions. If one person ninja looted or ks'd or was a prick in general it got around fast. I knew one person that couldn't get groups, guilds or help with anything just because earlier in his characters life he was a big time ks'er and harrasser and he had very little thought of what his actions may lead to. Accountability of ones actions played a huge part in the community and immersion. It made you want to have a good reputation so it made you build your characters personality based on how you wanted to be treated. i.e. you treated everyone how you wanted to be treated which pretty much equals respect. These types of things helped with the RP world in general. There was room to rp when the community was tight and everyone respected everyone elses boundaries.
Unfortunately the things you've asked me to come up with constructive ideas for are just not possible in this day and age. Unless your running your own gaming server and your in charge of character dev and rp rules.
It all boils down to one simple statement. Without Immersion, Community and respect for one another RP is damn near an impossibility. Without the RP it's MMOG. That equation = boring to alot of people and just the opposite to others. Depends on play style I guess.
I will agree that at points Ianubisi can be a little.. *cough*
but this is another one of those occasions where I agree with him.
First of all Knives22, your personal attacks are childish, please if oyu want to launch personal attacks get into politics or go to mpogd, we dont need that crap here.
Next on the agenda is the fact MMORPGS and not MUDS
Personally, I dont mind some tabletop gaming, I also admit to laughing at the people who do it every night, and live life acting like there character.
With 10,000 people playing its hard to make a story that will catch all there interested, and involved every single one of them.
In a perfect world, that would work, but in a perfect world we wouldnt have slaver, poverty, guns, or flamers.
So really, its a losing argument, go play a mud, and enjoy it since thats what you seem to want to play. Ill go back to playing Planetside and blow the crap out of other people while talking to my friends about my day.
PS, Knives, personal attacks are just childish, your argument was good untill you started with the "if you ever went to school" or telling him to grow up and such.
Although I will agree, Ianubisi you words were a little hard to swallow sometimes becuase of your attitude (no offence really, its just you have a gift for getting your point across but stepping on a lot of toes)
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
No offense taken.
I'm gona say something. I don really like to call those games MMORPG. I don't even like to call games "games". Many developers are designing "games" instead of a software that provides entertainment. Games, oh games, games must have this must have that .. blah.. and roleplaying ? Look at the people who wana make online games now. What do they say? " I WANA MAKE A MMORPG " They thing MMORPG as a genre of "online games now". Means that their games must be able to lvl and kill and gain exp and skill. etc, no developers really care about roleplaying. They say, to make the game intresting, it must have quests. Then they create some dumb background story. And the quest has nothing to do with anything, quest are now just tasks for you to do to get rewards. It has no meaning, man come on,tell me what's the point of deliverying some stupid parcel to some stupid king far away?
Darkages is the only RP required game I know of.
Other games like EQ have great RP servers. for example on EQ's rp server they only allow one character per account to join. they have also removed the common language to force players to speak their own (no trolls can't talk to humans unless the human has learned the trolls language. What im really saying is all the devs have to do is add a good RP server like this to more games.
-Selek
-Selek
you want rpg?
check out dark Halo at www.silverhalo.ca
there's even a whole forum dedicated to rp out of and in the game!
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Listen Asmodeeus, seven years ago, Ultima Online didn't even have those pathetic "quests" that you refer to or those "professions" of ninja, samurai, necromancer, and paladin. Nor did it have any of the neon crap, or bug mounts. It didn't even have any "combat moves." You turned on attack and jousted with simplistic swings. It was a better game then. if you can't guess why then just uninstall the thing and move along. - Crabby
For me I think it got to the point where I could really identify with my character. I leveled and Elvaan in FFXI for nearly a year and I've just recently retired it. In order to keep in contact with the friends I made on Titan we exchanged email addys and talk on IM's. In my own head I keep referring to myself as my character name (sounds sick, eh?) and I find myself forcing myself to use their real names. If that's not roleplaying I'm not sure what is. Yeah I don't talk in game with "thee" or "thou hast..." but I became really personal with my character. I took the time to make him well rounded and develeoped (about as much as you can in FFXI, blah) and budgeted his money. It was pretty hard to walk away from him and I even chose a nice place to "bury" him for my final log off. I guess it comes down to more "What is your definition of role playing" I consider myself a RPer even though I act my part with modern text and thinking.
feature that in my opinon would help the rp a lot.(a lot of those feature would be hard to implement)
-quest:no premade quest( what the pupose on doing things that a lot of people have done before and lot will do after me) .
-charatcer avancament: skill based.what you do make your character, you are not bounds to a class , also you should not have to fight monster if you dont want, i mean you could do many other things then fight like being a politican for exemple.skill would not be limited but stas would be limited to your race.
-monster: -no spawn(they need to breed)
- when they die you can loot what they where no more no less (and if you want you can cut it and take bone meet etc)
-World should be huge with a lot of things to see and do
- good storyline so that the player can fit themself in it
-dynamic world that is shaped by the player (what you do could change the world)
-open pvp with big consequence for being a criminal
-death: could be rezed if brough to a healer(maybe some other way could be used to) else its permanent.
-Chat: you can only talk with people near enough to hear you.
things like dynamic world would need insane computer for server and reallly high connection speed
so with technologie we have now it would be almost imposible to make.There is a game that exist that we cans say is dynamic in is own way since player build the things that are in it. its Second life, every things is on the server you connect to it with a 20 meg client.It work well but you have to wait a while so the things dowload and for this reason for a mmorpg it would need a relly high bandwith to be playable, so for now its not possible but maybe one day lol
many of the other featurs like perma death would not appel to most of the people but in a role play perspective would be needed.(its fun to be a hero but are you ready to die like a hero?)
It was only some idea on many i have and i did not have the time to develop and explain them.
I didn't go through and read everything, but I'll add my small of thought on this. If someone already said anything like this I'm sorry.
I don't feel that you EVER get a good RP feeling out of a mass market game. There are just to many people. Granted you can go about trying to get away from this by forming/join a PURE RP guild but you still won't get it fully. Its hard (for me at least) to RP even with an RP'er when everyone else around me is not. The world needs to be RP.
To get that old Table Top RP feeling back I think the best bet to ever getting it is going to come from smaller games or just go back to table top. I'm going to shamelessly toss in a plug for a game in VERY early development, that I think (and hope) could pull it off, because when I first looked into them and considered joining the team they were (and still are I believe) mainly focused at bring the RP back. The game is called "ONCE: Open Source MMORPG". Google it and take a look.
This is not your eq2/wow/doom3 eye candy game, and probably never will be. Its being made by people on their free time, working for free. Screw it, I'm not going to spew out details though because now I'm wanding off the subject of my post.
But basicly, what I'm trying to get at, I don't feel that any mass market MMO will ever have the RPG that we all crave. Just to many people.
Goddam mad dog gnaws wang! Goddam mad dog!