If you have never played Gemstone3/DragonRealms or any of the other 4 games they develop then don't disrespect Simutronics commitment to gaming. Trust me when I say "Gemstone4" complexity and gameplay is 100 times far better than Newb games like WorldOfWarcraft. The only game's that came close to GS4/DR was EQ and AsheronCall.
Because the gameplay and charachter complexity is easier to establish in a MUD it will require even more effort to replicate it for an MMORPG game. If Hero's Journey is even half as complex as GS4/DR MUD game was then this MMORPG will blow all the other games outa the water!!!
Look at all the chump MMORPG games coming out in 2007, 'pirates of the carribean', 'LOTR', etc.... NONE OF THESE games will have an impact to the MMORPG genre. When HJ comes out, it'll become the next EQ that everyone's been waiting for! So if it comes out in 2008, its worth the wait.
i dont think people are waiting for another eq, that type of mmorpg is so old and boring, its time for something new.
If you have never played Gemstone3/DragonRealms or any of the other 4 games they develop then don't disrespect Simutronics commitment to gaming. Trust me when I say "Gemstone4" complexity and gameplay is 100 times far better than Newb games like WorldOfWarcraft. The only game's that came close to GS4/DR was EQ and AsheronCall.
Because the gameplay and charachter complexity is easier to establish in a MUD it will require even more effort to replicate it for an MMORPG game. If Hero's Journey is even half as complex as GS4/DR MUD game was then this MMORPG will blow all the other games outa the water!!!
Look at all the chump MMORPG games coming out in 2007, 'pirates of the carribean', 'LOTR', etc.... NONE OF THESE games will have an impact to the MMORPG genre. When HJ comes out, it'll become the next EQ that everyone's been waiting for! So if it comes out in 2008, its worth the wait.
i dont think people are waiting for another eq, that type of mmorpg is so old and boring, its time for something new.
Ah I dont think thats what he meant. He means it will re-define the genre as EQ did back in the day.
I read the title to this thread and thought "Ah flame wars begin" but it hasnt been that bad, really. All I can say that in high school I played many many many many hours on DragonRealms...I shudder to think about it (along with the $300 AOL bill). But I still find myself coming back once and a while to start playing but its difficult, because for some reason I killed off my main Paladin character whom I spent so long developing.... (I had FINALLY gotten to unincumbered while wearing a full suit of heavy plate)
I had thought the slow development was a great part of gameplay and challenging but now that I have a career and a life, I dont have the time that I used to play DR though its a great game. And to be honest when I was playing there were very little updates to the game. There were invasions to the Crossing and stuff like that, but not much content updates. It never bothered me because there was so much to do. But it doesnt surprise me that this game has been so long in development. Simutronics has been notorious for delayed projects. But the good thing, I think, is that they always seem to produce a good product, and the customer base has always been a mature one...Well, for the most part.
As a long time player of Simutronics games I was hoping they would break the cycle of current MMORPGs but with games like Darkfall and AoC coming out Im already starting to see this happen. I wonder how HJ will fit into the crowd? Who am I kidding I'll probably play it anyways. A 3D Elanthia? How could I not explore that.
Notice all the devs do when they come in is defend themselves? They're worse than policians. Come in, tell us everything is fine, and go right back out again. Why not just admit that Simu has an incredibly bad habit of giving false hopes. These false hopes make your customer base get frustrated and leave. You simply can't pull this same shit when you have an MMO, or you won't make any money off of it. When you promice something, you need to STICK TO IT. There is no 'unless', no 'but', no 'if', no quantifer after that statment guys. It's just fact. If you don't your customer base will stop trusting you, feel just as hurt and betrayed as I do being a long-time Simu fan. You will still have fans, but fans don't pay the bills. I really enjoy your work, but you guys are your own worst enemy.
We're not defending just ourselves, but something we're working very hard and lovingly on. Please read that carefully. This is something we all love doing, and it's not easy to listen and take insults constantly. We understand you're all frustrated, but other than work really hard, there's nothing we can do.
If you really want interaction with us, you're better off going to the official forums or the Hero's Hall forums. It's a lot more active there.
Notice all the devs do when they come in is defend themselves? They're worse than policians. Come in, tell us everything is fine, and go right back out again. Why not just admit that Simu has an incredibly bad habit of giving false hopes. These false hopes make your customer base get frustrated and leave. You simply can't pull this same shit when you have an MMO, or you won't make any money off of it. When you promice something, you need to STICK TO IT. There is no 'unless', no 'but', no 'if', no quantifer after that statment guys. It's just fact. If you don't your customer base will stop trusting you, feel just as hurt and betrayed as I do being a long-time Simu fan. You will still have fans, but fans don't pay the bills. I really enjoy your work, but you guys are your own worst enemy.
We're not defending just ourselves, but something we're working very hard and lovingly on. Please read that carefully. This is something we all love doing, and it's not easy to listen and take insults constantly. We understand you're all frustrated, but other than work really hard, there's nothing we can do.
If you really want interaction with us, you're better off going to the official forums or the Hero's Hall forums. It's a lot more active there.
I would but you never got around to making a halfway readable format, not that you gave a timetable, but you still raised our hopes saying you have purchased the software for the new forums. It's just another example of keeping your public in a constant and steady state of hope, building toward the inevatibility of frustrated let-down.
When it takes me 15 minutes of looking in back logs to find the OP's argument, something is very broken. When I used to read it every day or when the conversation lasts for only 10-15 posts it's a fine system. It's just when it goes back for 200 posts and I'd like to know what you all are talking about that I get screwed up.
I really don't like berating you guys. I really don't. I played your games for a good long time. But i just got frustrated. Remeber that movie, Liar Liar? The kid just didn't trust his father anymore because he'd say they'd go out and play and get let down. My wife never believes we're going somewhere until it actually happens because her father would tell them they are going to disneyland on Friday and never go. These things don't happen from one or two instances of lies. This happens after building up a gradual mistrust of somebody.
I just don't believe Simu when it comes to timetables. and I haven't gotten a decent responce about it yet. Not once. Not even a shrug and a smile. If these policies don't change, this game will flatline faster than Cruman #4 in Captian Kirk's away team. And that's a fact, Jack. I just get so frustrated when I see a company with so much potential, so many great ideas, and such imagination be completely discredited (fairly) because of such a nasty reputation about something as stupid and sticking to your promices.
The Lady gave you some good advice if you are truly looking for information on this game. If however, you are simply ere to vent... Have at it. PinTBC
I suppose one of my goals is to vent my frustration, sure. But i think my main object is to simply wake them up to the mistakes they are making. They are a very small company (bigger with a new office now that they're raking in the big bucks with the HJ Engine), and they are making a lot of mistakes.
I am a firm believer in learning from past experiences. But Simu hasn't ever learned followthrough. They can come up with a million amazing ideas, but they simply don't get implemented. They fall by the wayside. This shows a lack of conviction at best and a poorly organized and managed company at worst.
What I am trying to convey is that there is no way to lose your customers faster than to continually disappoint and discourage them.
Originally posted by Valendros Originally posted by PinTBC The Lady gave you some good advice if you are truly looking for information on this game. If however, you are simply ere to vent... Have at it. PinTBC
I suppose one of my goals is to vent my frustration, sure. But i think my main object is to simply wake them up to the mistakes they are making. They are a very small company (bigger with a new office now that they're raking in the big bucks with the HJ Engine), and they are making a lot of mistakes. I am a firm believer in learning from past experiences. But Simu hasn't ever learned followthrough. They can come up with a million amazing ideas, but they simply don't get implemented. They fall by the wayside. This shows a lack of conviction at best and a poorly organized and managed company at worst. What I am trying to convey is that there is no way to lose your customers faster than to continually disappoint and discourage them.
Current players tell you things have changed in the past year, yet you ignore this fact. You Sir, have an axe to grind. Period!
Current players tell you things have changed in the past year, yet you ignore this fact. You Sir, have an axe to grind. Period!
Maybe I do. I read the GS forums periodically and I know what's been promiced and what has happened.
You can't say things have changed when all the promices they gave 2+ years ago still have yet to come true. Savants, Monks, Guild Skills for all other professions... The new questing system was a giant leap in the correct direction, but how can you plant the seed of knowledge in somebody about A B C and D, then 2 years later deliver on E, something you never told them was coming, and expect them to be grateful you never delivered, let alone updated us about A-D.
Don't make me anticipate something then do something completely different... I won't appreciate that, and neither will their new MMO players. It takes a while to earn back my trust, and it will not be coming back for a good long time.
Bottom line: Tell players about changes when they're almost DONE, not 24 hours after you cooked up minor details in a staff meeting. Anticipation and consistant letdown is a strong force that hurts your player base.
Originally posted by Valendros Originally posted by jgankum
Current players tell you things have changed in the past year, yet you ignore this fact. You Sir, have an axe to grind. Period!
Maybe I do. I read the GS forums periodically and I know what's been promiced and what has happened. You can't say things have changed when all the promices they gave 2+ years ago still have yet to come true. Savants, Monks, Guild Skills for all other professions... The new questing system was a giant leap in the correct direction, but how can you plant the seed of knowledge in somebody about A B C and D, then 2 years later deliver on E, something you never told them was coming, and expect them to be grateful you never delivered, let alone updated us about A-D. Don't make me anticipate something then do something completely different... I won't appreciate that, and neither will their new MMO players. It takes a while to earn back my trust, and it will not be coming back for a good long time. Bottom line: Tell players about changes when they're almost DONE, not 24 hours after you cooked up minor details in a staff meeting. Anticipation and consistant letdown is a strong force that hurts your player base.
First: There is no maybe about it.
Second: I don't think you understand the difference between setting goals and making promises.
Bottom Line: Go to business school and take some marketing classes. You don't hide what your doing unless you need to keep it from your competitors. "Anticipation and consistant letdown is a strong force that hurts ...." yet we still keep trying to date the boy/girl. The point I am making here is that, most of us still stick with things long after being let down. I'm not saying it's right, but it is the way humans behave. Just read the WoW forums. The same idiots have been claiming they are going to quit for two years.
It's really tempting to break into a Simu rant. Not to hit Simu GMs over the head any more than they have been - I did my share of that on the Simu boards in my day and here in another post - but just to reinforce in detail how some of the players on this board defending Simu now are coming from way out in left field.
That aside, let's just remember that DR, GS, AoH... all of these games were crappy at release. They were not just slightly crappy. Simu's text game release model would make Anarchy Online look like a wunderkind. I'm sure that won't happen (if HJ ever comes out), but saying that Simu knows what they were doing because of what they did with their text games is not in any way relevant. Hopefully.
It's really tempting to break into a Simu rant. Not to hit Simu GMs over the head any more than they have been - I did my share of that on the Simu boards in my day and here in another post - but just to reinforce in detail how some of the players on this board defending Simu now are coming from way out in left field. That aside, let's just remember that DR, GS, AoH... all of these games were crappy at release. They were not just slightly crappy. Simu's text game release model would make Anarchy Online look like a wunderkind. I'm sure that won't happen (if HJ ever comes out), but saying that Simu knows what they were doing because of what they did with their text games is not in any way relevant. Hopefully.
Just for the record, I pulled very few punches on the Simu boards and it ended up costing me more than I wish it had.
Simu releases have not been crappy. Their GS3 release was done incredibly quickly as they lost the iron crown license, and while it ended up having some problems Cyper did an incredible job setting up what turned out to be one of the longest lasting and best text based games on the market.
I was one of the orignal beta testers of Dragon realms and while the game was not for me, there were very few bugs, and the game was interesting as hell. Yes it changed as more and more people experienced it, but that just shows a willingness to adapt.
I left for a bit around the GS4 release, but I can say that the designers did a hell of a job changing the fundamentals of an existing game, and doing so in a way that they seemed to lose very few players.
I don't recognize the name Fennris, but my name was PinTBC on their boards. What was yours? I will most likely recognize it if you were active on the boards.
I also played GS3 using the characters Misdy Meanor, Arma Geddon, Ughsplat Kobold-Squisher and GMed under the name of Bhamma
<< Simu releases have not been crappy. Their GS3 release was done incredibly quickly as they lost the iron crown license, and while it ended up having some problems Cyper did an incredible job setting up what turned out to be one of the longest lasting and best text based games on the market. >>
GS, at release, had tons of problems that are less and less overlooked in today's market. Balance issues, bugs, small game world, overly simple mechanics, numerous crashes, etc.. I'm not saying that GS isn't successful at what it is but at release it was crappy (the best that was out there at the time, commercially, but still crap even compared to Anarchy Online at release).
Dragonrealms had bugs, exploits and weaknesses aplenty. It's easy to forget, I know - I was having fun with it at the time and the bugs and weaknesses didn't matter much to me initially. The game is much better in every way now - but the current game only vaguely resembles what was released 10 years ago.
Those two game releases were forgiveable - there was very little competition at the time and most others hadn't even tried to do what Simu was essentially pioneering.
The real stinker was AoH/HX - that came after UO/EQ/AC/others, but it was still a small, simple MUD with lots of flaws. I think the developers of the game were sentimental about DR's glory days, forgetting or not realiziing that the glory of DR and GS were that they were a new form of entertainment for many and had the first, largest community of online role players in the world at the time. The limitations of those games, at release, had nothing to do with their success and should not have been repeated.
The idea of getting the foot in the door with a bare bones program/world and building on it slowly over the years (all the while exaggerating about or promising imminent cool things) is not going to fly anymore. I'm guessing that Simu understands that but that's just a guess. GS, DR and AoH do not prove that Simu knows how to RELEASE a great game. The state of the product at release time seems to be very important nowadays.
I have to agree with the OP here. Having played Dragonrealms for an extended period, I have to say that this was very enjoyable and the Game system was complex and thouroughly enjoyable . I just hope this can be translated to 3D for all our sakes.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
We started as a group in a Kesmai game called Multi-Player Battletech. That game was an adaptation of the PC based mechwarrior game, and many of us still believe that had Kesmai not dropped the ball, the game would still be enjoyed today.
The Clans started as a group of high end players of that game who decided that it was more fun to act as a small unit which was more powerful than most f the House (country) militaries. The game didn't really have a roleplaying component, but a large group of players co-opted the Genie message boards and kind of created a very interesting setup.
Many of us still play different on line games together and I'd pretty much consider any of them my brothers.
Fennris,
Did you post who you were on their message boards? If I can't remember you, I'm pretty sure Krakii or Macfarlan might be able to?
By the way, one of the biggest reasons that I tend to stick up a bit for Simutronics is that I have never encountered a company that was willing to listen to their player base and look at ways to try to implement their suggestions as well as Simutronics did. Even though I disagreed with some of the things they did, I would not fault them for listening and trying to make things right.
If you have never played Gemstone3/DragonRealms or any of the other 4 games they develop then don't disrespect Simutronics commitment to gaming. Trust me when I say "Gemstone4" complexity and gameplay is 100 times far better than Newb games like WorldOfWarcraft. The only game's that came close to GS4/DR was EQ and AsheronCall.
Because the gameplay and charachter complexity is easier to establish in a MUD it will require even more effort to replicate it for an MMORPG game. If Hero's Journey is even half as complex as GS4/DR MUD game was then this MMORPG will blow all the other games outa the water!!!
Look at all the chump MMORPG games coming out in 2007, 'pirates of the carribean', 'LOTR', etc.... NONE OF THESE games will have an impact to the MMORPG genre. When HJ comes out, it'll become the next EQ that everyone's been waiting for! So if it comes out in 2008, its worth the wait.
I've played all of their games and have been totally blown away by the graphics.
Heck, if anyone has an axe to grind, it's me. And, players similar to me.
Heck, 750 has been dangled if front of GS sorcerers oh, gee, since the early to mid 1990s?
Seriously.
But you know, I'm older now. And I look at supposed successes like WoW, which I only needed play for an hour or so before I realized how it pales in comparison to the depth of play in DR or GS, and I realize that to this point no graphical MMORPG comes close to these two, old, "classic" games.
There are some other MUDs that have incredible depth like GS/DR, but they've never developed enough of a player base to be compelling to me. Inferno comes to mind.
GS/DR have both a solid player base and depth. Currently, at the time of this posting, early Sunday evening, they show about 600/700 people online, respectively. Those are huge numbers for an MUD (although their numbers used to top 1000 each). While I haven't played them in years, I'll bet part of that decline is because many of the kids playing moved on once EQ and the like came out.
Good for them. DR/GS are probably better RP'd now than they were years ago, before the age of EQ.
Suimutronics has made a zillion mistakes. It's going to happen when the vast majority of your staff is volunteer. I would some of those mistakes, like the continual dangling of the 750 carrot, really are practically unforgiveable.
Fraudulent, even. (at least emotionally, I feel that it's fraudulent)
But you know, so what? Overall, their MUDs are better than any others (particularly when you consider the amount of depth with the large player base). And my hunch is both games are better than ALL of the games in the left hand column over there.
Seriously.
That's something to be truly proud of. I work for a company that is the best of the business. We're innovators, pioneers, and on a daily, hourly basis we're doing what no one had done previously, and NO ONE manages to do what we do on the scale we do. And, we're owned by Berkshire-Htathaway ;-). We like that.
I know what it feels like to be part of something truly special. It does give me a sense of pride, a sense of investment. I know how Simu's employees must feel.
These days, now that I'm older, I suppose that matters more than anything else. Knowing that I know how they feel, I forgive them their transgressions and look to the future.
Cemm, TBC stands for 'The Bloody Clans' We started as a group in a Kesmai game called Multi-Player Battletech. That game was an adaptation of the PC based mechwarrior game, and many of us still believe that had Kesmai not dropped the ball, the game would still be enjoyed today. The Clans started as a group of high end players of that game who decided that it was more fun to act as a small unit which was more powerful than most f the House (country) militaries. The game didn't really have a roleplaying component, but a large group of players co-opted the Genie message boards and kind of created a very interesting setup. Many of us still play different on line games together and I'd pretty much consider any of them my brothers.
Fennris, Did you post who you were on their message boards? If I can't remember you, I'm pretty sure Krakii or Macfarlan might be able to?
By the way, one of the biggest reasons that I tend to stick up a bit for Simutronics is that I have never encountered a company that was willing to listen to their player base and look at ways to try to implement their suggestions as well as Simutronics did. Even though I disagreed with some of the things they did, I would not fault them for listening and trying to make things right. Pin
Thanks Pin, I knew it'd sound familiar when I heard it and I recall many of the tales of the early adventures of the Clanners in GS as well. I only briefly played Battletech (was more of an Air Warrior fan at the time), but definitely recall Jim remembering back to the bad old days of you all gaming it up over there.
Your sign off is one that is very familiar to me from all the years of reading and posting on the Simu forums too. Yours were always posts I made sure to pause and read. Hope you're having fun out there where ever you've all ended up!
If you have never played Gemstone3/DragonRealms or any of the other 4 games they develop then don't disrespect Simutronics commitment to gaming. Trust me when I say "Gemstone4" complexity and gameplay is 100 times far better than Newb games like WorldOfWarcraft. The only game's that came close to GS4/DR was EQ and AsheronCall.
Because the gameplay and charachter complexity is easier to establish in a MUD it will require even more effort to replicate it for an MMORPG game. If Hero's Journey is even half as complex as GS4/DR MUD game was then this MMORPG will blow all the other games outa the water!!!
Look at all the chump MMORPG games coming out in 2007, 'pirates of the carribean', 'LOTR', etc.... NONE OF THESE games will have an impact to the MMORPG genre. When HJ comes out, it'll become the next EQ that everyone's been waiting for! So if it comes out in 2008, its worth the wait.
If its like all the other simutronic's games then the problem will not be the game so much as the people who run the game. For one, only the top developers/staff have an actual job at simutronics and gets paid. The rest of the people working on development of the game or in customer service are volunteers. This also means that the majority of the people that work on HJ will have real jobs that intefere with their volunteer job working for Simutronics. This doesnt sound too bad until projects are constantly delayed or altogether forgotten when the volunteer worker has too many real life obligations. Simutronics always promises or announces new systems and/or big releases but only a tenth of what they say may actually make it into the game and become actual content while the rest will remain either untouched or swept under the carpet of obscurity never to see the light of day.
Heroes Journey has been in development since 1999 and still hasnt come close to beta. If you are expecting an MMO with the atmosphere of a true RPG similar to GS4 or DragonRealms, I think you should wait a few years after HJ's release for the platinum server that will cost you around 50$ a month, that is if HJ is still around. But then again, if Simutronics can get people to pay 50$ a month for a MUD, maybe they can get blood from a stone.
Hand crafted with care on a resonable budget, by a company who are still Indie enough to care $50 is absolutely peanuts for a decent game with a real life to it.
They already have more content and an environments that will beat the current offerings to trash, I will judge the game on what I know of Simutronics and what I have seen first hand of the Hero Engine...
I think you are wrong.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Heck, if anyone has an axe to grind, it's me. And, players similar to me.
Heck, 750 has been dangled if front of GS sorcerers oh, gee, since the early to mid 1990s?
Seriously.
But you know, I'm older now. And I look at supposed successes like WoW, which I only needed play for an hour or so before I realized how it pales in comparison to the depth of play in DR or GS, and I realize that to this point no graphical MMORPG comes close to these two, old, "classic" games.
There are some other MUDs that have incredible depth like GS/DR, but they've never developed enough of a player base to be compelling to me. Inferno comes to mind.
GS/DR have both a solid player base and depth. Currently, at the time of this posting, early Sunday evening, they show about 600/700 people online, respectively. Those are huge numbers for an MUD (although their numbers used to top 1000 each). While I haven't played them in years, I'll bet part of that decline is because many of the kids playing moved on once EQ and the like came out.
Good for them. DR/GS are probably better RP'd now than they were years ago, before the age of EQ.
Suimutronics has made a zillion mistakes. It's going to happen when the vast majority of your staff is volunteer. I would some of those mistakes, like the continual dangling of the 750 carrot, really are practically unforgiveable.
Fraudulent, even. (at least emotionally, I feel that it's fraudulent)
But you know, so what? Overall, their MUDs are better than any others (particularly when you consider the amount of depth with the large player base). And my hunch is both games are better than ALL of the games in the left hand column over there.
Seriously.
That's something to be truly proud of. I work for a company that is the best of the business. We're innovators, pioneers, and on a daily, hourly basis we're doing what no one had done previously, and NO ONE manages to do what we do on the scale we do. And, we're owned by Berkshire-Htathaway ;-). We like that.
I know what it feels like to be part of something truly special. It does give me a sense of pride, a sense of investment. I know how Simu's employees must feel.
These days, now that I'm older, I suppose that matters more than anything else. Knowing that I know how they feel, I forgive them their transgressions and look to the future.
They're trying.
Thanks for reading.
~Vivix
Very well said I salute you
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I'm not sure if the mistakes are necessairly a problem because the staff is volunteer or because of a general lack of orginzation.
The games sure are enormously more complex than any other game I've ever played, but I think main reason it feels like that is because it is just so disorganized. It FEELS thrown together. It FEELS like a patchwork quilt. Patchwork quilts are very intricate, very complex, and very worthwhile, but I think todays gamer demands a certain level of organization and unity to your product.
Finish what you start, bring it out in a large sweeping update. Do what GS4 was SUPPOSED to do. If you want organization, finish the guild system. Finish the spell system. Finish all the current systems and get them orgainized. THEN you can work on new and updated things.
Comments
Ah I dont think thats what he meant. He means it will re-define the genre as EQ did back in the day.
I read the title to this thread and thought "Ah flame wars begin" but it hasnt been that bad, really. All I can say that in high school I played many many many many hours on DragonRealms...I shudder to think about it (along with the $300 AOL bill). But I still find myself coming back once and a while to start playing but its difficult, because for some reason I killed off my main Paladin character whom I spent so long developing.... (I had FINALLY gotten to unincumbered while wearing a full suit of heavy plate)
I had thought the slow development was a great part of gameplay and challenging but now that I have a career and a life, I dont have the time that I used to play DR though its a great game. And to be honest when I was playing there were very little updates to the game. There were invasions to the Crossing and stuff like that, but not much content updates. It never bothered me because there was so much to do. But it doesnt surprise me that this game has been so long in development. Simutronics has been notorious for delayed projects. But the good thing, I think, is that they always seem to produce a good product, and the customer base has always been a mature one...Well, for the most part.
As a long time player of Simutronics games I was hoping they would break the cycle of current MMORPGs but with games like Darkfall and AoC coming out Im already starting to see this happen. I wonder how HJ will fit into the crowd? Who am I kidding I'll probably play it anyways. A 3D Elanthia? How could I not explore that.
Rogun
If you really want interaction with us, you're better off going to the official forums or the Hero's Hall forums. It's a lot more active there.
If you really want interaction with us, you're better off going to the official forums or the Hero's Hall forums. It's a lot more active there.
I would but you never got around to making a halfway readable format, not that you gave a timetable, but you still raised our hopes saying you have purchased the software for the new forums. It's just another example of keeping your public in a constant and steady state of hope, building toward the inevatibility of frustrated let-down.
When it takes me 15 minutes of looking in back logs to find the OP's argument, something is very broken. When I used to read it every day or when the conversation lasts for only 10-15 posts it's a fine system. It's just when it goes back for 200 posts and I'd like to know what you all are talking about that I get screwed up.
I really don't like berating you guys. I really don't. I played your games for a good long time. But i just got frustrated. Remeber that movie, Liar Liar? The kid just didn't trust his father anymore because he'd say they'd go out and play and get let down. My wife never believes we're going somewhere until it actually happens because her father would tell them they are going to disneyland on Friday and never go. These things don't happen from one or two instances of lies. This happens after building up a gradual mistrust of somebody.
I just don't believe Simu when it comes to timetables. and I haven't gotten a decent responce about it yet. Not once. Not even a shrug and a smile. If these policies don't change, this game will flatline faster than Cruman #4 in Captian Kirk's away team. And that's a fact, Jack. I just get so frustrated when I see a company with so much potential, so many great ideas, and such imagination be completely discredited (fairly) because of such a nasty reputation about something as stupid and sticking to your promices.
""When it takes me 15 minutes of looking in back logs to find the OP's argument, something is very broken.""
Yup. User error.
Nothing you have said is unique to Simutronics. It's smiply the nature of the software industry.
The Lady gave you some good advice if you are truly looking for information on this game.
If however, you are simply ere to vent...
Have at it.
PinTBC
I suppose one of my goals is to vent my frustration, sure. But i think my main object is to simply wake them up to the mistakes they are making. They are a very small company (bigger with a new office now that they're raking in the big bucks with the HJ Engine), and they are making a lot of mistakes.
I am a firm believer in learning from past experiences. But Simu hasn't ever learned followthrough. They can come up with a million amazing ideas, but they simply don't get implemented. They fall by the wayside. This shows a lack of conviction at best and a poorly organized and managed company at worst.
What I am trying to convey is that there is no way to lose your customers faster than to continually disappoint and discourage them.
I am a firm believer in learning from past experiences. But Simu hasn't ever learned followthrough. They can come up with a million amazing ideas, but they simply don't get implemented. They fall by the wayside. This shows a lack of conviction at best and a poorly organized and managed company at worst.
What I am trying to convey is that there is no way to lose your customers faster than to continually disappoint and discourage them.
Current players tell you things have changed in the past year, yet you ignore this fact. You Sir, have an axe to grind. Period!
Maybe I do. I read the GS forums periodically and I know what's been promiced and what has happened.
You can't say things have changed when all the promices they gave 2+ years ago still have yet to come true. Savants, Monks, Guild Skills for all other professions... The new questing system was a giant leap in the correct direction, but how can you plant the seed of knowledge in somebody about A B C and D, then 2 years later deliver on E, something you never told them was coming, and expect them to be grateful you never delivered, let alone updated us about A-D.
Don't make me anticipate something then do something completely different... I won't appreciate that, and neither will their new MMO players. It takes a while to earn back my trust, and it will not be coming back for a good long time.
Bottom line: Tell players about changes when they're almost DONE, not 24 hours after you cooked up minor details in a staff meeting. Anticipation and consistant letdown is a strong force that hurts your player base.
You can't say things have changed when all the promices they gave 2+ years ago still have yet to come true. Savants, Monks, Guild Skills for all other professions... The new questing system was a giant leap in the correct direction, but how can you plant the seed of knowledge in somebody about A B C and D, then 2 years later deliver on E, something you never told them was coming, and expect them to be grateful you never delivered, let alone updated us about A-D.
Don't make me anticipate something then do something completely different... I won't appreciate that, and neither will their new MMO players. It takes a while to earn back my trust, and it will not be coming back for a good long time.
Bottom line: Tell players about changes when they're almost DONE, not 24 hours after you cooked up minor details in a staff meeting. Anticipation and consistant letdown is a strong force that hurts your player base.
First: There is no maybe about it.
Second: I don't think you understand the difference between setting goals and making promises.
Bottom Line: Go to business school and take some marketing classes. You don't hide what your doing unless you need to keep it from your competitors. "Anticipation and consistant letdown is a strong force that hurts ...." yet we still keep trying to date the boy/girl. The point I am making here is that, most of us still stick with things long after being let down. I'm not saying it's right, but it is the way humans behave. Just read the WoW forums. The same idiots have been claiming they are going to quit for two years.
It's really tempting to break into a Simu rant. Not to hit Simu GMs over the head any more than they have been - I did my share of that on the Simu boards in my day and here in another post - but just to reinforce in detail how some of the players on this board defending Simu now are coming from way out in left field.
That aside, let's just remember that DR, GS, AoH... all of these games were crappy at release. They were not just slightly crappy. Simu's text game release model would make Anarchy Online look like a wunderkind. I'm sure that won't happen (if HJ ever comes out), but saying that Simu knows what they were doing because of what they did with their text games is not in any way relevant. Hopefully.
Just for the record, I pulled very few punches on the Simu boards and it ended up costing me more than I wish it had.
Simu releases have not been crappy. Their GS3 release was done incredibly quickly as they lost the iron crown license, and while it ended up having some problems Cyper did an incredible job setting up what turned out to be one of the longest lasting and best text based games on the market.
I was one of the orignal beta testers of Dragon realms and while the game was not for me, there were very few bugs, and the game was interesting as hell. Yes it changed as more and more people experienced it, but that just shows a willingness to adapt.
I left for a bit around the GS4 release, but I can say that the designers did a hell of a job changing the fundamentals of an existing game, and doing so in a way that they seemed to lose very few players.
I don't recognize the name Fennris, but my name was PinTBC on their boards. What was yours? I will most likely recognize it if you were active on the boards.
I also played GS3 using the characters Misdy Meanor, Arma Geddon, Ughsplat Kobold-Squisher and GMed under the name of Bhamma
So, who were you?
PinTBC
Then it's rather substantial. I will look forward to seeing it when it gets released.
Simu-Solomon,
It's simpler to just say, 'No'. I'll be expecting copyright residuals for those two remarks.
Ophion
Just say, 'NO!'
<< Simu releases have not been crappy. Their GS3 release was done incredibly quickly as they lost the iron crown license, and while it ended up having some problems Cyper did an incredible job setting up what turned out to be one of the longest lasting and best text based games on the market. >>
GS, at release, had tons of problems that are less and less overlooked in today's market. Balance issues, bugs, small game world, overly simple mechanics, numerous crashes, etc.. I'm not saying that GS isn't successful at what it is but at release it was crappy (the best that was out there at the time, commercially, but still crap even compared to Anarchy Online at release).
Dragonrealms had bugs, exploits and weaknesses aplenty. It's easy to forget, I know - I was having fun with it at the time and the bugs and weaknesses didn't matter much to me initially. The game is much better in every way now - but the current game only vaguely resembles what was released 10 years ago.
Those two game releases were forgiveable - there was very little competition at the time and most others hadn't even tried to do what Simu was essentially pioneering.
The real stinker was AoH/HX - that came after UO/EQ/AC/others, but it was still a small, simple MUD with lots of flaws. I think the developers of the game were sentimental about DR's glory days, forgetting or not realiziing that the glory of DR and GS were that they were a new form of entertainment for many and had the first, largest community of online role players in the world at the time. The limitations of those games, at release, had nothing to do with their success and should not have been repeated.
The idea of getting the foot in the door with a bare bones program/world and building on it slowly over the years (all the while exaggerating about or promising imminent cool things) is not going to fly anymore. I'm guessing that Simu understands that but that's just a guess. GS, DR and AoH do not prove that Simu knows how to RELEASE a great game. The state of the product at release time seems to be very important nowadays.
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Cemm,
TBC stands for 'The Bloody Clans'
We started as a group in a Kesmai game called Multi-Player Battletech. That game was an adaptation of the PC based mechwarrior game, and many of us still believe that had Kesmai not dropped the ball, the game would still be enjoyed today.
The Clans started as a group of high end players of that game who decided that it was more fun to act as a small unit which was more powerful than most f the House (country) militaries. The game didn't really have a roleplaying component, but a large group of players co-opted the Genie message boards and kind of created a very interesting setup.
Many of us still play different on line games together and I'd pretty much consider any of them my brothers.
Fennris,
Did you post who you were on their message boards? If I can't remember you, I'm pretty sure Krakii or Macfarlan might be able to?
By the way, one of the biggest reasons that I tend to stick up a bit for Simutronics is that I have never encountered a company that was willing to listen to their player base and look at ways to try to implement their suggestions as well as Simutronics did. Even though I disagreed with some of the things they did, I would not fault them for listening and trying to make things right.
Pin
Heck, if anyone has an axe to grind, it's me. And, players similar to me.
Heck, 750 has been dangled if front of GS sorcerers oh, gee, since the early to mid 1990s?
Seriously.
But you know, I'm older now. And I look at supposed successes like WoW, which I only needed play for an hour or so before I realized how it pales in comparison to the depth of play in DR or GS, and I realize that to this point no graphical MMORPG comes close to these two, old, "classic" games.
There are some other MUDs that have incredible depth like GS/DR, but they've never developed enough of a player base to be compelling to me. Inferno comes to mind.
GS/DR have both a solid player base and depth. Currently, at the time of this posting, early Sunday evening, they show about 600/700 people online, respectively. Those are huge numbers for an MUD (although their numbers used to top 1000 each). While I haven't played them in years, I'll bet part of that decline is because many of the kids playing moved on once EQ and the like came out.
Good for them. DR/GS are probably better RP'd now than they were years ago, before the age of EQ.
Suimutronics has made a zillion mistakes. It's going to happen when the vast majority of your staff is volunteer. I would some of those mistakes, like the continual dangling of the 750 carrot, really are practically unforgiveable.
Fraudulent, even. (at least emotionally, I feel that it's fraudulent)
But you know, so what? Overall, their MUDs are better than any others (particularly when you consider the amount of depth with the large player base). And my hunch is both games are better than ALL of the games in the left hand column over there.
Seriously.
That's something to be truly proud of. I work for a company that is the best of the business. We're innovators, pioneers, and on a daily, hourly basis we're doing what no one had done previously, and NO ONE manages to do what we do on the scale we do. And, we're owned by Berkshire-Htathaway ;-). We like that.
I know what it feels like to be part of something truly special. It does give me a sense of pride, a sense of investment. I know how Simu's employees must feel.
These days, now that I'm older, I suppose that matters more than anything else. Knowing that I know how they feel, I forgive them their transgressions and look to the future.
They're trying.
Thanks for reading.
~Vivix
The Singularity is Near ...
Your sign off is one that is very familiar to me from all the years of reading and posting on the Simu forums too. Yours were always posts I made sure to pause and read. Hope you're having fun out there where ever you've all ended up!
If its like all the other simutronic's games then the problem will not be the game so much as the people who run the game. For one, only the top developers/staff have an actual job at simutronics and gets paid. The rest of the people working on development of the game or in customer service are volunteers. This also means that the majority of the people that work on HJ will have real jobs that intefere with their volunteer job working for Simutronics. This doesnt sound too bad until projects are constantly delayed or altogether forgotten when the volunteer worker has too many real life obligations. Simutronics always promises or announces new systems and/or big releases but only a tenth of what they say may actually make it into the game and become actual content while the rest will remain either untouched or swept under the carpet of obscurity never to see the light of day.
Heroes Journey has been in development since 1999 and still hasnt come close to beta. If you are expecting an MMO with the atmosphere of a true RPG similar to GS4 or DragonRealms, I think you should wait a few years after HJ's release for the platinum server that will cost you around 50$ a month, that is if HJ is still around. But then again, if Simutronics can get people to pay 50$ a month for a MUD, maybe they can get blood from a stone.
Hand crafted with care on a resonable budget, by a company who are still Indie enough to care $50 is absolutely peanuts for a decent game with a real life to it.They already have more content and an environments that will beat the current offerings to trash, I will judge the game on what I know of Simutronics and what I have seen first hand of the Hero Engine...
I think you are wrong.
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Very well said I salute you
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I'm not sure if the mistakes are necessairly a problem because the staff is volunteer or because of a general lack of orginzation.
The games sure are enormously more complex than any other game I've ever played, but I think main reason it feels like that is because it is just so disorganized. It FEELS thrown together. It FEELS like a patchwork quilt. Patchwork quilts are very intricate, very complex, and very worthwhile, but I think todays gamer demands a certain level of organization and unity to your product.
Finish what you start, bring it out in a large sweeping update. Do what GS4 was SUPPOSED to do. If you want organization, finish the guild system. Finish the spell system. Finish all the current systems and get them orgainized. THEN you can work on new and updated things.