Where did the initial $30 million investment come from?

Samuraisword · June 2007

I have yet to see any information about this. Is this public record in any of Sgil's filings? How would I go about looking it up?

I wonder if the original investors have recouped their monies? Did SOE have to pay them back? Do they still hold an interest in Vanguard?

raoul · June 2007

I believe it was microsoft...

krenalor · June 2007

I would like to know also, I have some swampland that might be worth quite a bit more then VSoH is.......maybe they will invest, afterall I played EQ1.....and I have a "Vision" too!

projous · June 2007

Originally posted by raoul

I believe it was microsoft...

yup, sigil was with massivesoft in the being, trying to find a source to link :P

edit
http://www.f13.net/?itemid=561

and we leave this issue alone, there have been enough threads about sigil, microsoft and SoE involement in vanguard

Zalera · June 2007

I wouldn't be suprised if SoE was the reason why the company went bankrupt in the first place seeing how they told the company to release the game before it was actually ready. Be kinda funny if SoE gave them the investment then took the game over. Money never left their hands. lol

hbosman · June 2007

Microsoft wasn't the only investor. Brad himself invested money and so did some others which aren't known. At some point they bought Microsoft shares in Sigil and became a 'free' company but they had to find a new publisher which they found in SOE.

Reklaw · June 2007

Originally posted by krenalor

I would like to know also, I have some swampland that might be worth quite a bit more then VSoH is.......maybe they will invest, afterall I played EQ1.....and I have a "Vision" too!

Research bro is all you can do. I think there are millions and millions of people with "Visions" but just a few are able to either work that vision into reality and some might bring pieces of that vision into reality. But fact remains if one indeed has such a vision like you say you have it should be absolutely unneeded to ask such a question as then you already have done tons of research (months/years ect) and you already could figure out where investments come from or how they could be generated.

And its funny to think this small to pretent because someone has played "a" game that your vision could be worth something LOL( i know you where just kidding. Not saying your idea might not be a fantastic idea. But lets face fact most idea's are either already thought of therefor making lots and lots of idea's not work or tech isn't ready for some things people would want/like in a game. Other thing is and that is truly shown at the Vanguard forums and that allot of people think about the "me" game instead of future terms or mass-appeal (yes you can have mass- appeal even with niche games, WoW has shown it, still its a niche game like i said before else we would have 5+billion mmo gamers and 14/15 mil. other type of game gamers)

Maybe sites like these could shed a light onto what is needed for your "Vision"

http://www.devmaster.net/ , http://www.gamedev.net/ , http://www.westwood.edu/ , http://www.gamesinvestor.com/

Porfat · June 2007

Venture Capital. Some pissed off investors out there.

Enigma · June 2007

Originally posted by Zalera

I wouldn't be suprised if SoE was the reason why the company went bankrupt in the first place

Yup and former President Clinton shared a Egg McMuffin with an Alien in his White House back in 1994.

You may wanna read some of Brad's interviews before making a public statement like that

Orphes · June 2007

Originally posted by Enigma

Originally posted by Zalera

I wouldn't be suprised if SoE was the reason why the company went bankrupt in the first place

Yup and former President Clinton shared a Egg McMuffin with an Alien in his White House back in 1994.

You may wanna read some of Brad's interviews before making a public statement like that

The spin span b(r)adly ?

Lidane · June 2007

Originally posted by Porfat

Venture Capital. Some pissed off investors out there.

Not really. SOE probably paid them back when they bought out Sigil. I couldn't imagine Sony-- or anyone else, for that matter-- buying another company and not clearing that company's debts so they wouldn't have to deal with them later. From a business perspective, it just makes sense, since they'd have total ownership, free and clear.

M1sf1t · June 2007

Originally posted by Lidane
Originally posted by Porfat
Venture Capital. Some pissed off investors out there.
Not really. SOE probably paid them back when they bought out Sigil. I couldn't imagine Sony-- or anyone else, for that matter-- buying another company and not clearing that company's debts so they wouldn't have to deal with them later. From a business perspective, it just makes sense, since they'd have total ownership, free and clear.

According to Brad they sold around 2 million boxes. At 40+ dollars a pop that would be enough to cover the investors but not enough to ensure the continued development and maintenance of a MMO with 14 servers and a staff of 100 code and art monkeys.

I am sure though that Microsoft must of contributed their share into this project back when Brad was passing off measly staged tech demos off as development progress of VG.

M1sf1t · June 2007

Originally posted by Zalera
I wouldn't be suprised if SoE was the reason why the company went bankrupt in the first place seeing how they told the company to release the game before it was actually ready. Be kinda funny if SoE gave them the investment then took the game over. Money never left their hands. lol

More unsubstantiated fairy tales from the tinfoil hat wearing SOE haters. Back it up with facts or shut the help up. I am tired of all you people with your "SOE was behind the Roswell cover and thus lead to Brad and Sigil's demise" assumptions.

Lidane · June 2007

Originally posted by M1sf1t

According to Brad they sold around 2 million boxes. At 40+ dollars a pop that would be enough to cover the investors but not enough to ensure the continued development and maintenance of a MMO with 14 servers and a staff of 100 code and art monkeys.
I am sure though that Microsoft must of contributed their share into this project back when Brad was passing off measly staged tech demos off as development progress of VG.

I'm pretty sure you're adding an extra zero that shouldn't be there. Everything I've read, even from Brad, points to only around 200,000 boxes sold. There's no way they sold anywhere close to 2 million copies of this game. If they had, they'd probably be in better shape and wouldn't be merging down to 4 servers.

Sales of only 200,000 boxes would mean that they were still heavily in debt after Vanguard went live. Mostly, this was due to paying Microsoft off in order to buy back their game, along with the expenses and overhead of providing for a staff of 100+. Any funding they received after leaving MS would have come from venture capitalists, and other interested parties, and they would have wanted to be paid off when SOE moved to buy Sigil outright.

M1sf1t · June 2007

Originally posted by Lidane
Originally posted by M1sf1t

According to Brad they sold around 2 million boxes. At 40+ dollars a pop that would be enough to cover the investors but not enough to ensure the continued development and maintenance of a MMO with 14 servers and a staff of 100 code and art monkeys.
I am sure though that Microsoft must of contributed their share into this project back when Brad was passing off measly staged tech demos off as development progress of VG.

I'm pretty sure you're adding an extra zero that shouldn't be there. Everything I've read, even from Brad, points to only around 200,000 boxes sold. There's no way they sold anywhere close to 2 million copies of this game. If they had, they'd probably be in better shape and wouldn't be merging down to 4 servers.
Sales of only 200,000 boxes would mean that they were still heavily in debt after Vanguard went live. Mostly, this was due to paying Microsoft off in order to buy back their game, along with the expenses and overhead of providing for a staff of 100+. Any funding they received after leaving MS would have come from venture capitalists, and other interested parties, and they would have wanted to be paid off when SOE moved to buy Sigil outright.

You're right. Where I got 2 million mix with 200,000 I don't know. Yet I am sure Microsoft contributed to the finical development of VG before they dropped Sigil.

Hengist · June 2007

Originally posted by M1sf1t

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by M1sf1t

According to Brad they sold around 2 million boxes. At 40+ dollars a pop that would be enough to cover the investors but not enough to ensure the continued development and maintenance of a MMO with 14 servers and a staff of 100 code and art monkeys.

I am sure though that Microsoft must of contributed their share into this project back when Brad was passing off measly staged tech demos off as development progress of VG.

I'm pretty sure you're adding an extra zero that shouldn't be there. Everything I've read, even from Brad, points to only around 200,000 boxes sold. There's no way they sold anywhere close to 2 million copies of this game. If they had, they'd probably be in better shape and wouldn't be merging down to 4 servers.

Sales of only 200,000 boxes would mean that they were still heavily in debt after Vanguard went live. Mostly, this was due to paying Microsoft off in order to buy back their game, along with the expenses and overhead of providing for a staff of 100+. Any funding they received after leaving MS would have come from venture capitalists, and other interested parties, and they would have wanted to be paid off when SOE moved to buy Sigil outright.

You're right. Where I got 2 million mix with 200,000 I don't know. Yet I am sure Microsoft contributed to the finical development of VG before they dropped Sigil.

Also, figure that they got MAYBE $12-$20 in profit from the boxes that were sold. Need to factor in the hands that it goes thru before it gets to the store. The company that presses the CD's, prints manual and boxes, middle man, and final distributor all take their cut.

Paragus1 · June 2007

I think the 30 Million probably came from someone who should have thought out the concept a little more. Lets make a big budget game that appeals to a small niche crowd! How in God's name did anyone think they would be able to recoup such a large investment from such a small target audience?

Stridar · June 2007

Originally posted by Paragus1

I think the 30 Million probably came from someone who should have thought out the concept a little more. Lets make a big budget game that appeals to a small niche crowd! How in God's name did anyone think they would be able to recoup such a large investment from such a small target audience?

To make money, you have to spend money. They looked at how much Blizzard spent on Dev. cost of WoW, they thought they had a wow killer or atleast competitor. Blizzard spent more money and at the time the number of people playing MMO's was much smaller then it is or when Sigil started up to make Vanguard, and Blizzard has made that back 10 fold.

I was in early alpha for Vanguard(first 200 or so able to play it) and even played grouped with Brad quite a few times. To be honest he was pretty cool, but oblivious to what was going on in the Dev process I thought. We'd ask about so and so and he'd say it's being worked on by so and so and should be done by next week, next month, next patch day...etc. It never got done. They had one person that was lead on the main contenent at the time, telling others that so and so was done(none of it was), he was finally fired, even though he was one of the first 5 people on the Sigil team. The didn't broadcast this, but his name and picture dissapeared off the employess list one day and he never showed back up in game. I knew then that Vanguard, while being a great concept was going to fail, due to the smugness of the guys making it. I gave tons of feedback, along with the people that I was talking to and playing with every day. none of it ever got changed or looked at. It didn't fit the vision, regardless that the vision didn't fit with a working game.

Kyleran · June 2007

Originally posted by Paragus1

I think the 30 Million probably came from someone who should have thought out the concept a little more. Lets make a big budget game that appeals to a small niche crowd! How in God's name did anyone think they would be able to recoup such a large investment from such a small target audience?

But that's not how it was presented to the investors. It was probably sold to them on the basis that Brad and team had developed one of the most successful MMORPG games of its day (EQ 1) and all that was needed for the team to make a bigger hit was a larger budget to fund the greater vision.

They were not savy gamers, (neither was Brad) so they really did not understand how much different today's gaming market is from the one EQ launched into back in 1999. I'm sure Brad really thought his vision was a viable strategy, and perhaps if the game had been polished on release it would have a decent size market (because the game does appeal to a certain segment of the market)

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Where did the initial $30 million investment come from?

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Where did the initial $30 million investment come from?

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV