Elite developers changing from Windows to OS X... Interesting

gpett · June 2007

Very interesting... could the future of PC gaming be on a Mac OS?

Now that OS X can run on non proprietary hardware (Intel, AMD, ect), could we see a change of loyalty among the elite developers of the PC gaming industry? Looks like the respected developers might finally be reaching the boiling point with all of the hoops they have to jump through to get their software out on Microsoft Windows.

John Carmack has announced id softwares change of development to OS X machines instead of Windows boxes. Seems EA might go in that direction too.

This is rather huge. The reason people do not really use Mac OS is because Microsoft has always had more software developers developing for Windows as compared to Mac OS. Could times be changing?

P.S. Yes I realize we needed Windows and Microsoft to have the PCs that we have today. But, I also see that Microsoft has no intent on making affordable thin client OSs. Microsoft now wants to charge you as much as possible for stuff you do not really want or need. So, another alternative to Windows for a gamer is a good thing.

Edit: Ooops my bad OS X doesn't run on all hardware. Wich Mac OS am I thinking of that can now run on intel boxes?

b0rderline99 · June 2007

i think that it would be great if they switched

OSX is in a lot of ways a much more stable and well build system than windows

the only reason i got windows for my newest computer is that almost all gaming is on windows only

Rollotamasi · June 2007

OS X will never be a real contender in the games market until Apple drops their hardware prices. Thats really all there is to it.

gpett · June 2007

Cant you install OS X on any machine now?

Edit: Ah, I was wrong.. nah you need mac hardware. =( bummer

M1sf1t · June 2007

Originally posted by gpett
Very interesting... could the future of PC gaming be on a Mac OS?
Now that OS X can run on non proprietary hardware (Intel, AMD, ect), could we see a change of loyalty among the elite developers of the PC gaming industry? Looks like the respected developers might finally be reaching the boiling point with all of the hoops they have to jump through to get their software out on Microsoft Windows.
John Carmack has announced id softwares change of development to OS X machines instead of Windows boxes. Seems EA might go in that direction too.
This is rather huge. The reason people do not really use Mac OS is because Microsoft has always had more software developers developing for Windows as compared to Mac OS. Could times be changing?

P.S. Yes I realize we needed Windows and Microsoft to have the PCs that we have today. But, I also see that Microsoft has no intent on making affordable thin client OSs. Microsoft now wants to charge you as much as possible for stuff you do not really want or need. So, another alternative to Windows for a gamer is a good thing.

1.) OS-X only runs on a few limited Intel platforms and chipsets and that is a with a unsupported hacked version. It does not come close to being able to run on AMD platforms and all it's chipsets let alone non-Intel chipsets for Intel CPUs.

2.) PC gaming will always be on a Windows platform. Sorry that is where the vast bulk of players are using today.

3.) OSX will never ever be completely ported over to the "PC" platform because that would mean direct competition with Microsoft and supporting tons and I mean tons of non-Apple hardware. This will never happen.

Apple is and will always remain a niche market because this is how they make their money. Apple is a hardware company first and foremost. Software is just a means to an end to push more Apple only hardware.

gpett · June 2007

Agreed. I will not switch over until their OS can be installed on any intel hardware I choose.

Wich Mac OS is it that can be installed on regular intel hardware? I thought there was one.

ikra · June 2007

until apple stops macs from running only on proprietary hardware then i am sure they have a big probability of being a contender with microsoft

CleffyII · June 2007

It doesn't matter if they switch. Any game built for the OSX has to use Open GL which Windows supports. The main reason developers don't use OpenGL is because its less costly to use DirectX on the target system. However, if they did build OpenGL only the software would be supported across 3 OS; but the actual benefit of it isn't that much considering how little of consumers use OSX and how many Linux users also use Windows.

Jimmy_Scythe · June 2007

And now it's time for a message from the Mac hater....

Ciredric · June 2007

Your hypothesis is rather weak.

I have nothing against Mac's, but let's look at some facts.

One, a pc with microsoft's OS on it is almost half what a Mac costs. Pretty significant fact.

Two, Mac's in general don't have high end graphics cards in them, they are not the best game machines.

Three, game companies are fully aware of this and the PC is their primary computer because of the overwhelming number of PC's out in the marketplace compared to Mac's. What apple has what a 12% market share at best?

Id might be also programming for the Mac, but they are most certainly NOT stopping development for the PC, that would be beyond foolhardy to eliminate almost 90% of their market.

M1sf1t · June 2007

Originally posted by CleffyII
It doesn't matter if they switch. Any game built for the OSX has to use Open GL which Windows supports. The main reason developers don't use OpenGL is because its less costly to use DirectX on the target system. However, if they did build OpenGL only the software would be supported across 3 OS; but the actual benefit of it isn't that much considering how little of consumers use OSX and how many Linux users also use Windows.

I have to disagree in one respect. Cost is not the reason why some people only develop in DirectX. The main reason stems from the ease of use of the DirectX API which ties into the Windows OS and allows programmers access to other parts of hardware without having to switch API's. You must realize that DirectX is not just a graphic API but it also has some very well supported audio and input API functions built into it and supported on Windows.

OpenGL can visually bring everything DirectX does and more (Hollywood movies with CGI effects are exclusively rendered using strictly OpenGL on huge Linux rendering cluster farms ) but OpenGL is nothing more then a graphic API.

The audio and input API's for OpenGL games are separate from the graphic API of OpenGL. In some areas this can be a double edged sword in that OpenGL is very much a cross platform API but it requires a separate audio and input API to bring the total package together and that can be messy if you are dealing in open and non-open platforms like Windows, OSX and Linux.

API's like SDL (Simple DirectMedia Layer) are an attempt to bring DirectX like integration to OpenGl and allow for ease of access to other parts of a OS via one single open API package across multiple platform. Of course DirectX is still the king on the Windows platform because DirectX is naturally an exclusive native Windows API controlled by Microsoft and has the benefits of tying itself knee deep into the Windows OS in ways other API's might never be allowed to do so if at all.

BattleFelon · June 2007

Microsoft is leading the charge in terms of bridging the gap between Xbox and PC gamers with cross-platform play. It's already being done with FPSes like Halo 2 and Shadowrun, and MMOGs can't be that far behind. If Microsoft can indeed pull it off, then I can't see a mass exodus away from Windows. Devs will be too busy creating games that can interact across both platforms.

http://66.129.68.246/team/archive/2007/03/14/542900.aspx

I could possibly see Sony trying to exclusively hook up with Apple because of the Playstation versus Xbox rivalry. But surely EA does way too much business with Microsoft (if you look at PCs AND Xbox sales) to make a similar move.

But all talk of software aside, does Apple offer high end gaming rigs? It just seems performancewise PCs are still way ahead of Macs when it comes to running the latest generation of games. Some of this of course could be only because Apple has yet to really decide to enter the gaming market in true force.

elvenangel · June 2007

Originally posted by CleffyII

It doesn't matter if they switch. Any game built for the OSX has to use Open GL which Windows supports. The main reason developers don't use OpenGL is because its less costly to use DirectX on the target system. However, if they did build OpenGL only the software would be supported across 3 OS; but the actual benefit of it isn't that much considering how little of consumers use OSX and how many Linux users also use Windows.

Uhh... OpenGL is free and non platform specific. Most go with Direct X because of alot of the built in features like Direct Sound, etc etc instead of having to use multiple API's.

I have a hard time seeing games suddenly going over to Mac's since alot of them love using Nvidia & shaders (and from my knowledge Mac's don't support shaders, but i could be wrong im not sure mac's are to pricey to buy) and the last I looked Nvidia's a pc only peice of hardware. Mac's are great and all but they're really not designed for games. They're designed for media content and creation.

paulscott · June 2007

mac is worse than mircrosoft from the Proprietary stand point... not only is it just an OS but it's also a system let's see you build a mac system from scratch at home.

the only reasons devs will make anything for mac is for a 5% boost to sales and income.

M1sf1t · June 2007

Originally posted by BattleFelon
Microsoft is leading the charge in terms of bridging the gap between Xbox and PC gamers with cross-platform play. It's already being done with FPSes like Halo 2 and Shadowrun, and MMOGs can't be that far behind. If Microsoft can indeed pull it off, then I can't see a mass exodus away from Windows. Devs will be too busy creating games that can interact across both platforms.
http://66.129.68.246/team/archive/2007/03/14/542900.aspx
I could possibly see Sony trying to exclusively hook up with Apple because of the Playstation versus Xbox rivalry. But surely EA does way too much business with Microsoft (if you look at PCs AND Xbox sales) to make a similar move.
But all talk of software aside, does Apple offer high end gaming rigs? It just seems performancewise PCs are still way ahead of Macs when it comes to running the latest generation of games. Some of this of course could be only because Apple has yet to really decide to enter the gaming market in true force.

Muwahahahaaaa Windows and XBOX cross platform. Sorry that made me laugh. XBOX essentially is a PC running Windows. As for Sony hooking up with the Apple I don't ever see it happening. Even though all Sony PS2 and PS3 games are done in OpenGL I don't think Sony will ever see Apple as a viable alternative to it's presence on the PC via their SOE division.

M1sf1t · June 2007

Originally posted by elvenangel
Originally posted by CleffyII
It doesn't matter if they switch. Any game built for the OSX has to use Open GL which Windows supports. The main reason developers don't use OpenGL is because its less costly to use DirectX on the target system. However, if they did build OpenGL only the software would be supported across 3 OS; but the actual benefit of it isn't that much considering how little of consumers use OSX and how many Linux users also use Windows.

Uhh... OpenGL is free and non platform specific. Most go with Direct X because of alot of the built in features like Direct Sound, etc etc instead of having to use multiple API's.
I have a hard time seeing games suddenly going over to Mac's since alot of them love using Nvidia & shaders (and from my knowledge Mac's don't support shaders, but i could be wrong im not sure mac's are to pricey to buy) and the last I looked Nvidia's a pc only peice of hardware. Mac's are great and all but they're really not designed for games. They're designed for media content and creation.

Macs do use Nvidia and ATI cards. In fact the latest demo from ID software was using a Nvidia card I believe since John Carmack only really likes to program in OpenGL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvuTtrkVtns

I don't know if the Mac that John is using to do his presentation has a yet to be released 8800 Nvidia GPU in it or not. Apple's store only lists the 7800 I think or is it 7600 as a avialable Nvidia GPU.

treysmooth · June 2007

Yeah MAC's have no support for the 8000 series atm. PC Gamer contacted them about this but they had no time table to when a 8800 would work with the current Mac's. I love my MAC... for video, sound, and website design but gaming, no thanks. I build my gaming machine and always have and I don't see them allowing me to build a OSX compatible system so until then the Mac remains a work tool.

Peace

XXen · June 2007

hmm. btw, Mac OS X does run on the most proprietarian systems, take a look at the developer edition of it..

The normal does just run on Mac machines as they have a hardware DRM that prevents Mac OS X to boot from other platforms.

Sometime ago some gave a good reason why apple does it the way they do... If they would sell OS X freely they had to support alot

more of platforms, so driver horror similar to windows and propably a company like Dell would purchase a lot of licenses and build

OS X machines which would result in a drop of Apples Hardware Sells...

So any reason why they should use something else ... anyway, since most games now need to get crossplatform i think some developers will switch to something more compatible then directX

BattleFelon · June 2007

Originally posted by M1sf1t

Originally posted by BattleFelon

Microsoft is leading the charge in terms of bridging the gap between Xbox and PC gamers with cross-platform play. It's already being done with FPSes like Halo 2 and Shadowrun, and MMOGs can't be that far behind. If Microsoft can indeed pull it off, then I can't see a mass exodus away from Windows. Devs will be too busy creating games that can interact across both platforms.

http://66.129.68.246/team/archive/2007/03/14/542900.aspx

I could possibly see Sony trying to exclusively hook up with Apple because of the Playstation versus Xbox rivalry. But surely EA does way too much business with Microsoft (if you look at PCs AND Xbox sales) to make a similar move.

But all talk of software aside, does Apple offer high end gaming rigs? It just seems performancewise PCs are still way ahead of Macs when it comes to running the latest generation of games. Some of this of course could be only because Apple has yet to really decide to enter the gaming market in true force.

Muwahahahaaaa Windows and XBOX cross platform. Sorry that made me laugh. XBOX essentially is a PC running Windows. As for Sony hooking up with the Apple I don't ever see it happening. Even though all Sony PS2 and PS3 games are done in OpenGL I don't think Sony will ever see Apple as a viable alternative to it's presence on the PC via their SOE division.

Well of course Xbox is a Windows platform but that doesn't mean Microsoft will actually succeed in providing an online service that both console and PC gamers will want to regularly use. Things get even dicier if Microsoft wants to PC gamers to accept a subscription based model for extra features like voice hosting, player matching, etc. I'm not sure people will want to fork over $15/ month to Blizzard or Sony and an additional $10/month to Microsoft so that they can do raids with their console buddies. But that's a topic for another time - my only point is that I agree with you that opportunities for making Windows compatible games are likely to only keep expanding. I think the original press release only spoke to devs being willing to reach out more to Mac users, not any mass exodus away from Windows.

Zorvan · June 2007

Originally posted by Ciredric

What apple has what a 12% market share at best?

Less than 7% at last count.

jellojuice · June 2007

Originally posted by Zorvan

Originally posted by Ciredric

What apple has what a 12% market share at best?

Less than 7% at last count. Numbers are misleading......Dell is no. #1 at 26%. There really is no 500 pound gorilla computer manufacturer dominating the market.

Zorvan · June 2007

Originally posted by jellojuice

Originally posted by Zorvan

Originally posted by Ciredric

What apple has what a 12% market share at best?

Less than 7% at last count.Numbers are misleading......Dell is no. #1 at 26%. There really is no 500 pound gorilla computer manufacturer dominating the market.

Read the thread. See if you get it this time.

Edit: Here's a hint:

OPERATING SYSTEMS

Conley · June 2007

Probably been said many times before in this thread (to lazy to read). OSX will never replace windows as a games platform until Apple disconnects their OS from their limited hardware specs.

By the way I remember Steve Jobs himself had indicated a while back in an interview that they where not interested in apple to become a games platform.

severius · June 2007

Many many moons ago, probably before a lot of the people that frequent these forums were even born, apple was the computer of choice for gaming. Well mostly, there was a battle between commodore and apple back in the day. IBM PC's and compatibles were pretty much for business only. Eventually there was a switch though because apple had one major failing. If you wanted to upgrade any part you had to go through apple.

If Jobs and company have finally gone away from that flawed model then it can only be a boon to us gamers. With competition comes growth. Does ID's decision to develop for macs signal the doom for the pc? Hardly. The XBOX 360 and the WII probably pose more of a threat to pc gaming than the mac.

One thing I have noticed over the years is that one company begins to take a comfortable lead and they get sloppy. Then they start to lose their market share. Then they will either step up or disappear.

Royspi · June 2007

Highly unlikely. But if someday it happens I'll be using a Mac along with the other gamers.

Heh, anyone remember Marathon? I used to play that for hours on my Power Mac. and kid pix, lol... good times.

Dekron · June 2007

I am looking to get one of the new Macs that run OS X and Windows (without emulator).

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