Most of you people complain beause for you MMO is nmostly endgame, raiding and PVP. Hey its MMORPG I can't blame you if you are bored, you loose most of the fun!
To wannabe or not to wannabe? Hey I know the answer and it is not 42!
Originally posted by Perception Lets take a look at your arguments, shall we?
Your first post, you make several claims about WoW and its population. This is the logical fallacy of Presupposition. The claims you make are certainly not mutually agreed upon or generally accepted as fact.
Wrong. The post I was responding to made the assumptions about population equaling quality, I made no appeal to WoWs population.
Originally posted by Perception In your second post, you claim that because a food connoisseur rates something as better, that it is. This is the logical fallacy of Appealing to Misleading Authority. A food connoisseur has no more credentials to judge food than any other human being on the planet, since taste (in this case, its literal sense) is most certainly subjective.
Wrong again. I made no claims regarding the ability to ascertain absolute quality, in fact I stressed seeking the opinions of people with like minds. I left it entirely up to the reader to decide if the most popular food chain has the best food and sicne no one tried to argue the point that the most popular food chain sells the best food so the point was indeed accepted.
Originally posted by Perception
Also in your second post, you try to make the claim that something being described as best, due to its popularity, is a logical fallacy. This is incorrect. The logical fallacy of Popularity, is that an idea is right because it is popular. Those two concepts are profoundly different. A product being the most popular because it is the best is most certainly a logical assumption.
Wrong again. There is no fundamental difference. Popularity tells you nothing because it can have multiple causes, therefore you cant attribute it to a specific cause simply by pointing to the popularity.
In this case, although quality can be a factor in popularity, so is marketing, piecing, name recognition, availability, habit, heard mentality, and many other factors. It is impossible to conclude which, if any of these is dominant simply by measuring the popularity.
Originally posted by Perception
What you don't seem to understand, is that you can't try to show show flaws in another persons argument if your own arguments are based solely on your own interpretation of logic, with rules that only apply to you.
Unlike you I used real rules of logic applied correctly. This is why I successfully argued my point while you failed.
i personally don't think any other game will kill wow. Personally i think the only one that can really damage wow is blizzard themselves if they don't deliver enough interesting new things especially things that are fun for the casual players these will stop playing or move to another game. Personally i think they are heading that way too long allready and it will hurt them if they continue it.
If they keep basing their new content on such things like faction grinds, forced raiding and other ideas that are no fun for most casual players they will be the ones that killed the game themself.
I can hardly say much about the future, nor can I speak on behalf of all gamers, but I know for fact that WoW's expansion might've cured me of my mmo addiction. It's a shame, too. I'm a jaded, sordid MMO vet, and I really liked WoW. I had fun with BC for about three and a half months before I hit the raiding/grouping treadmill, and dropped the game soon after. All of my local RL buddies (5 in total) dropped off soon thereafter for similar reasons.
A typical day for us pre-70 was full of capricious randomness. Go to this zone, do quests W X Y while passively looking for a group for quest Z. Kill random players we passed by. Help out friendly non-n00b players. Group up when we were all online to take on an instance. At 70, that changed into actively look for group for instance X, or Y, or Z, and often entailed hanging around a capital city just for the chat channel (especially if you lacked a competent enough guild to do nightly [or hourly] runs for loot). We wouldn't be able to all group up so much because we needed a specific 5 man set to conquer certain instances.
For a PvPer there is simply no choice in this. The prospective PvPer needs an arena team for the best gear. This means being competitive on the arena ladder by attaining the best possible gear from instances to survive encounters in raids, with the purpose of attaining, yes, more gear. Best part of it is that if you didn't have the gear, you'd be two-shotted by the people who do have the gear.
Skill, which used to set players apart in the pre-raid era of WoW (arguably even until AQ40), used to make up for the difference in loot. A good player had nominal challenge from taking on an over-geared foe, and I took much delight squashing T2 players with my craptacular PvP set of blues and greens.
-- xpaladin
[MMOz] AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
The Facts are there simply there isnt enough content out there to keep any MMO alive forever. Each and every MMO from UO to WoW and beyond will inevitably fall by the wayside while another game that has tighter graphics smoother game play and above all NEW CONTENT will take its place and the chain will repeat. Will the MMO of your choice ever fully die, probably not for a few years after that initial subscription loss that can be called a crash. The only thing that really kills an MMO is time and Technology, as time goes on games get better more advanced graphics wise and combat engines and the whole nine yards. Each major title will have its hay day then fall its the way it goes.
Every MMO will die but the only cause is time. (certain variables will aid in how quick time will have its way)
Will the number of subcribers fall? No doubt. With the release of next gen MMORPGs such as Age of Conan lots of people will leave WoW. But Im sure Blizzard going to have millions of subs for several more years due to expansions and different game tweaks. So WoW will remain successful and very profitable till at least 2012
I haven't seen you prove me wrong in any way or form, so how about you stop making these garbage post and actually come up with something thats worth reading instead of this garbage "No, no no! its not true because I say so!".[/quote]
It is actually pretty futile to argue with you as you ignore points when you see fit, you only listen to what you want to hear. But I am interested, do you concede that the best Xbox360 game is Oblivion? Afterall, it has the highest reviews and player-ratings.
it seems like WoW did everything right to attract new people to the mmo scene and people that have already been there.. they took an already extremely popular rts game and turned it into a low req, extremely newbie friendly world. I agree with those who said that WoW is successful because of the first time MMO players that started there, however, i think it was a marketing decision to make WoW appear attractive to those who have never played an MMO. I have asked several people, including myself, what was the most fun they had on an MMO to an exception of a few it has always been there first MMO.
As far as the downfall of WoW, I think at this point, their subscriber number could decrease just as fast as it increased. All it will take is another MMO. I dont think Darkfall or AoC will ever do it. I think it needs to be a game that everyone can play. There arent people who can buy new computers everytime one of these next gen MMO's come out. Therefore, all of those people will probably be staying in WoW.
No, there won't be a downfall of WoW and No, WAR and AoC will not reach 1 million subscribers. There is too much competition.
<mod edit>
I wonder why you want to see WOW's downfall? This is, afterall, a game that I am sure many people would continue to enjoy playing ... so why do you want it to fail and stop their enjoyment, unless you horribly selfish?
None of us can guarantee the numbers of any games that are slated to comeout and wildly guessing like you do Zech only underlines your naivity. Its possible that these games will do well, and I am sure they will ... but to throw numbers around like you undermines any valid point you could make ... nice try though.
Will the number of subcribers fall? No doubt. With the release of next gen MMORPGs such as Age of Conan lots of people will leave WoW. But Im sure Blizzard going to have millions of subs for several more years due to expansions and different game tweaks. So WoW will remain successful and very profitable till at least 2012
THANK YOU, why is there even an arguement. I hope everyone that posts on this forum have more experience then just one game because then your view of MMOs is so narrow that you shouldn't be allowed to speak on topics such as this because you have no knowledge of trends and the world outside of your MMO. History is doomed to repeat itself, in our life times we will see many an MMO rise and fall.
Every MMO will die but the only cause is time. (certain variables will aid in how quick time will have its way)
Unlike you I used real rules of logic applied correctly. This is why I successfully argued my point while you failed.
Ah, falling back upon the tried and true, "nuh uh, you are" argument. Hope that works out for ya.
You seem to have missed the point I was poking fun at your rather hilarious lecture on getting the logic right. It amuses me to no end when people fail to spot a simple rewording of their own comments.
Just a note, when LOTRO was relesed Blizzard said they lost 2milion people world-wide, but a 3 million people join/rejoined at the same time, wow will not die out totaly (saddly) but i think its safe to say once 2008 is over WoW's glory days will be up or at least numbered
I agree this discussion is somewhat pointless. Regardless of any new game that comes out, WoW is not going anywhere for a long time. UO and EQ are STILL up for christ's sake. EQ2 has been out for a few years and is getting a fourth expansion. Even niche games like EVE are still going pretty strong. Besides, no matter what all the haters say. SWG has the best gameplay, graphics, and overall experience. LONG LIVE THE NGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No, there won't be a downfall of WoW and No, WAR and AoC will not reach 1 million subscribers. There is too much competition.
<mod edit>
Yes Zech, I'm sure that those two games (of which one of them only works on high end computers) that both try to run on a franchise that is not even nearly as popular among pc gamers as Warcraft, that are made by companies who's previous games combined don't even make half a million subscribers while at the same time directly competing with each other and other games such as Aion, Lotro, Tabula Rasa and ofcourse WoW can now easily get 1 million subscribers. I'm sure the fact that I take a good look at the market instead of getting carried away by blind hate such as yourself has nothing to do with it.
No, it must be because I'm a WoW (A game I don't even play, but that aside) fanboi.
Interesting fact:
No other western MMORPG aside from Blizzards World of Warcraft has ever made it to even half a million subscribers. Even Everquest peaked at 400~450k subscribers (although some claim that EQ had 500k subscribers, but from what I read, its peak was 400k)
I think it would be a good idea if you stop acting like its completely normal for a game to reach 1 million subscribers.
You seem to have missed the point I was poking fun at your rather hilarious lecture on getting the logic right. It amuses me to no end when people fail to spot a simple rewording of their own comments.
Just a note, when LOTRO was relesed Blizzard said they lost 2milion people world-wide, but a 3 million people join/rejoined at the same time, wow will not die out totaly (saddly) but i think its safe to say once 2008 is over WoW's glory days will be up or at least numbered
Care to post a link to where Blizzard said they lost 2 million when LOTRO released? I think you just made it up.
Just a note, when LOTRO was relesed Blizzard said they lost 2milion people world-wide, but a 3 million people join/rejoined at the same time, wow will not die out totaly (saddly) but i think its safe to say once 2008 is over WoW's glory days will be up or at least numbered
Could you post a link to where Blizzard "said they lost 2milion people world-wide"?
I haven't seen you prove me wrong in any way or form, so how about you stop making these garbage post and actually come up with something thats worth reading instead of this garbage "No, no no! its not true because I say so!".[/quote]
It is actually pretty futile to argue with you as you ignore points when you see fit, you only listen to what you want to hear. But I am interested, do you concede that the best Xbox360 game is Oblivion? Afterall, it has the highest reviews and player-ratings.
Depends.
If we look at gamespot under "They say", both games have an exact score of 9,4 and the difference on gamerankings is 0,3. Both are two very succesfull games, now THATS where I can say, it depends on your taste.
But not when there is a playerbase difference of 7,5 million and rating difference of 1 points or more.
Saying "Best is subjective" is just plain wrong. Thats like say ET for the atari 2600 is of the same quality as games like Oblivion and Gears of War because hey, it all depends on opinion.
ive been playing WoW since the release and a bit before. and over the time ive been playing. the main go in the game always seems to be to get better gear. GEAR gear gear. (epics, items, loots, if u want to get technical) but with the BC expansion all ive seen is a mass graphic dube of all items previously used. this has turned me off. yes the stats are better but i want a new look too. not the same old tier 1 look alike stuff with a new color i see every day in the toilet after i take a ****. but too be honest i dont see blizz getting off there lasy asses and hiring some people to come up with some new ideas so. ill probably end up moving on to something better. lotr or warhammer or any other mmorpg that can hold my interest.
If we look at gamespot under "They say", both games have an exact score of 9,4 and the difference on gamerankings is 0,3. Both are two very succesfull games, now THATS where I can say, it depends on your taste.
Uh huh, twisting it when it seems fit.
But not when there is a playerbase difference of 7,5 million and rating difference of 1 points or more.
Ok thats interesting thinking. You say every game which has gained a lot of sales and also has a higher review rating by 1 point or more is a better game than any other game which hasn't. Zelda outselling a rival rpg who simply got 1 ranking point lower by a considerable amount makes Zelda the best rpg? Even though they could be two different rpgs.
Saying "Best is subjective" is just plain wrong. Thats like say ET for the atari 2600 is of the same quality as games like Oblivion and Gears of War because hey, it all depends on opinion.
So the question "what is the best RTS?" isn't subjective? I do see in part where you're coming from. You see games magazines that will come up with bold headlines and bold statements to grasp the reader's attention. They may say "Oblivion, best rpg ever" and readers lap it up because its want they want to read. Yet, we're being told by game reviewers who have a subjective view what is the best rpg ever. Will hardcore rpg appreciatives and fans agree? Maybe not.
A car reviewer may cite a certain sports car as the best sports car. Will someone who is a hardcore sports car fan, who drives sports car day in, day out agree with that? Maybe, maybe not. He will likely be able to tell you the advantages and disadvantages of each car hes driven. He may also have a subjective view as to what he views as the best.
..Is it possible Blizzard is aware that they are coming under attack? Well i don't know from what i hear they are too confident in their product to really care..After all if you owned something that had 8million some odd players logging in every week you'd think the same..But boy are they in for a surprise.
Is Blizzard planning a counter-attack? Somebody with more info than me might know,but i sure do not.I hear of an expansion but who knows if this is true i think it will be some what hard..And what are they doing with this expansion and will it release in time to stop the inevitable wave of MMO's that will potentially put the nail in the coffin.Although the nail will NEVER go completely into the coffin because of the World-Wide player base Asia etc. that doesn't care about WAR or AOC. well post you're opinions and vote in the poll
You are very close to the true "source" of the "problem". Here is what itall, all, comes down to:
1. WoW cost roughly 30 million to make. In order for them to have recouped their investment, they needed 100,000 players to play. As you know, WoW has how many players?
2. With that in mind, Blizzard litterally is making too much money out of their initial investment. Not only have they re-couped their investment, they are making such true profit, that it boggles their own imagination. So, from a purly buisness POV, Blizzard could care less if other mmorpgs take players from WoW. They could care less if WoW went from 8 million playres down to 5,000 players. They have already made their money. No matter what happens in the future to WoW, it's a 100% win situation for Blizzard.
They do not need to be "too confident in their product". Their product has already re-couped all investment, and has already turned in an insane amount of true profit for them. They do not need to plan any "counter-attacks" because there is nothing for the competition to attack. There is no "coffin" for WoW, there will NEVER be a coffin for WoW. If WoW was shut down next week, it would be zero loss of money for Blizzard. Blizzard has ALREADY won years ago. When WoW eclipsed the 1 million player mark.
Comments
To wannabe or not to wannabe? Hey I know the answer and it is not 42!
Wrong. The post I was responding to made the assumptions about population equaling quality, I made no appeal to WoWs population.
Wrong again. I made no claims regarding the ability to ascertain absolute quality, in fact I stressed seeking the opinions of people with like minds. I left it entirely up to the reader to decide if the most popular food chain has the best food and sicne no one tried to argue the point that the most popular food chain sells the best food so the point was indeed accepted.
Wrong again. There is no fundamental difference. Popularity tells you nothing because it can have multiple causes, therefore you cant attribute it to a specific cause simply by pointing to the popularity.
In this case, although quality can be a factor in popularity, so is marketing, piecing, name recognition, availability, habit, heard mentality, and many other factors. It is impossible to conclude which, if any of these is dominant simply by measuring the popularity.
Unlike you I used real rules of logic applied correctly. This is why I successfully argued my point while you failed.
The new games coming out will be little speed bumps to WoW.
WoW will be the big dog for a long time to come.....
If they keep basing their new content on such things like faction grinds, forced raiding and other ideas that are no fun for most casual players they will be the ones that killed the game themself.
A typical day for us pre-70 was full of capricious randomness. Go to this zone, do quests W X Y while passively looking for a group for quest Z. Kill random players we passed by. Help out friendly non-n00b players. Group up when we were all online to take on an instance. At 70, that changed into actively look for group for instance X, or Y, or Z, and often entailed hanging around a capital city just for the chat channel (especially if you lacked a competent enough guild to do nightly [or hourly] runs for loot). We wouldn't be able to all group up so much because we needed a specific 5 man set to conquer certain instances.
For a PvPer there is simply no choice in this. The prospective PvPer needs an arena team for the best gear. This means being competitive on the arena ladder by attaining the best possible gear from instances to survive encounters in raids, with the purpose of attaining, yes, more gear. Best part of it is that if you didn't have the gear, you'd be two-shotted by the people who do have the gear.
Skill, which used to set players apart in the pre-raid era of WoW (arguably even until AQ40), used to make up for the difference in loot. A good player had nominal challenge from taking on an over-geared foe, and I took much delight squashing T2 players with my craptacular PvP set of blues and greens.
-- xpaladin
[MMOz]
AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
Every MMO will die but the only cause is time. (certain variables will aid in how quick time will have its way)
I haven't seen you prove me wrong in any way or form, so how about you stop making these garbage post and actually come up with something thats worth reading instead of this garbage "No, no no! its not true because I say so!".[/quote]
It is actually pretty futile to argue with you as you ignore points when you see fit, you only listen to what you want to hear. But I am interested, do you concede that the best Xbox360 game is Oblivion? Afterall, it has the highest reviews and player-ratings.
who cares about subscribers numbers in wow
u have ur server with 4k ppl...
the same will be with war and aoc
aoc will need fusion powered computer to play.....forget about big pvp battles without lag
wars grafics are better for no lag^^
it seems like WoW did everything right to attract new people to the mmo scene and people that have already been there.. they took an already extremely popular rts game and turned it into a low req, extremely newbie friendly world. I agree with those who said that WoW is successful because of the first time MMO players that started there, however, i think it was a marketing decision to make WoW appear attractive to those who have never played an MMO. I have asked several people, including myself, what was the most fun they had on an MMO to an exception of a few it has always been there first MMO.
As far as the downfall of WoW, I think at this point, their subscriber number could decrease just as fast as it increased. All it will take is another MMO. I dont think Darkfall or AoC will ever do it. I think it needs to be a game that everyone can play. There arent people who can buy new computers everytime one of these next gen MMO's come out. Therefore, all of those people will probably be staying in WoW.
I wonder why you want to see WOW's downfall? This is, afterall, a game that I am sure many people would continue to enjoy playing ... so why do you want it to fail and stop their enjoyment, unless you horribly selfish?
None of us can guarantee the numbers of any games that are slated to comeout and wildly guessing like you do Zech only underlines your naivity. Its possible that these games will do well, and I am sure they will ... but to throw numbers around like you undermines any valid point you could make ... nice try though.
Every MMO will die but the only cause is time. (certain variables will aid in how quick time will have its way)
Unlike you I used real rules of logic applied correctly. This is why I successfully argued my point while you failed.
Ah, falling back upon the tried and true, "nuh uh, you are" argument. Hope that works out for ya.Perception is Reality.
Unlike you I used real rules of logic applied correctly. This is why I successfully argued my point while you failed.
Ah, falling back upon the tried and true, "nuh uh, you are" argument. Hope that works out for ya.Yes Zech, I'm sure that those two games (of which one of them only works on high end computers) that both try to run on a franchise that is not even nearly as popular among pc gamers as Warcraft, that are made by companies who's previous games combined don't even make half a million subscribers while at the same time directly competing with each other and other games such as Aion, Lotro, Tabula Rasa and ofcourse WoW can now easily get 1 million subscribers. I'm sure the fact that I take a good look at the market instead of getting carried away by blind hate such as yourself has nothing to do with it.
No, it must be because I'm a WoW (A game I don't even play, but that aside) fanboi.
Interesting fact:
No other western MMORPG aside from Blizzards World of Warcraft has ever made it to even half a million subscribers. Even Everquest peaked at 400~450k subscribers (although some claim that EQ had 500k subscribers, but from what I read, its peak was 400k)
I think it would be a good idea if you stop acting like its completely normal for a game to reach 1 million subscribers.
Perception is Reality.
Perception is Reality.
Could you post a link to where Blizzard "said they lost 2milion people world-wide"?
If we look at gamespot under "They say", both games have an exact score of 9,4 and the difference on gamerankings is 0,3. Both are two very succesfull games, now THATS where I can say, it depends on your taste.
But not when there is a playerbase difference of 7,5 million and rating difference of 1 points or more.
Saying "Best is subjective" is just plain wrong. Thats like say ET for the atari 2600 is of the same quality as games like Oblivion and Gears of War because hey, it all depends on opinion.
ive been playing WoW since the release and a bit before. and over the time ive been playing. the main go in the game always seems to be to get better gear. GEAR gear gear. (epics, items, loots, if u want to get technical) but with the BC expansion all ive seen is a mass graphic dube of all items previously used. this has turned me off. yes the stats are better but i want a new look too. not the same old tier 1 look alike stuff with a new color i see every day in the toilet after i take a ****. but too be honest i dont see blizz getting off there lasy asses and hiring some people to come up with some new ideas so. ill probably end up moving on to something better. lotr or warhammer or any other mmorpg that can hold my interest.
So the question "what is the best RTS?" isn't subjective? I do see in part where you're coming from. You see games magazines that will come up with bold headlines and bold statements to grasp the reader's attention. They may say "Oblivion, best rpg ever" and readers lap it up because its want they want to read. Yet, we're being told by game reviewers who have a subjective view what is the best rpg ever. Will hardcore rpg appreciatives and fans agree? Maybe not.
A car reviewer may cite a certain sports car as the best sports car. Will someone who is a hardcore sports car fan, who drives sports car day in, day out agree with that? Maybe, maybe not. He will likely be able to tell you the advantages and disadvantages of each car hes driven. He may also have a subjective view as to what he views as the best.
You are very close to the true "source" of the "problem". Here is what itall, all, comes down to:
1. WoW cost roughly 30 million to make. In order for them to have recouped their investment, they needed 100,000 players to play. As you know, WoW has how many players?
2. With that in mind, Blizzard litterally is making too much money out of their initial investment. Not only have they re-couped their investment, they are making such true profit, that it boggles their own imagination. So, from a purly buisness POV, Blizzard could care less if other mmorpgs take players from WoW. They could care less if WoW went from 8 million playres down to 5,000 players. They have already made their money. No matter what happens in the future to WoW, it's a 100% win situation for Blizzard.
They do not need to be "too confident in their product". Their product has already re-couped all investment, and has already turned in an insane amount of true profit for them. They do not need to plan any "counter-attacks" because there is nothing for the competition to attack. There is no "coffin" for WoW, there will NEVER be a coffin for WoW. If WoW was shut down next week, it would be zero loss of money for Blizzard. Blizzard has ALREADY won years ago. When WoW eclipsed the 1 million player mark.