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NDAs are stupid, really they are and they are killing your game.
Gooney
Member Posts: 194
Why do companies actually bother with NDAs?
They are all doing the same thing anyway, surely it cant possibly matter if you call them Health points, Hit points or ...what does Turbine call health...Aura points or some such stupid thing; scratch that who cares. Is anyone, any where, actually doing something so singularily special that it merits all this corporate secrecy? Who doesnt know that Tabula Rasa wont be FPS style? Or that Huxley will, or that the Agency looks cool but its SOE so will probably be stupid, or that Pirates of the Burning Sea will be almost impossible to pull off (face it the Caribbean isnt large enough for 0.0 space...sorry).
The point is that all games are being made within a budget, a certain amount of time for a certain amount of features. Even if they really did have something ground breaking no one else would be able to copy it because they are already assdeep into their own production scheduals. Even if they did manage to find out and implement an innovation, they would do it with the knowledge that it was something thier consumer base would actually want.
Besides, we all have made up our minds by the time open beta launches and NDA drops as to whether or not a game will sink or swim. Just look at all of the releases since EQ2 and Wow. Without exception, every game has performed almost exactly as people had guessed as soon as NDA was lifted. In fact, if you discount fanboy noise, a company could actually use that information to its advantage. If they reacted early enough to it they could probably dial in on to what people actually want.
Think of it as a Web 2.0 idea tranlated to MMOs. Lets call it MMO 2.0.
Just think how DDO would have went if they actually had gone out with thier idea when they still had the chance to make changes. Of course youd still have the problem of some companies failing to see the light even when everyone is telling them they are barking up the wrong tree. I dont know how this could be implemented but Im sure clever people could figure it out.
It is in a companies interest to create a product that their customer base wants. How can they possibly know if their customers dont know what they are doing. Of course, it could be argued that people dont really know what they want, and I'll agree to that, although Im damn certain though that customers know what they dont want. Just look at AC2 and how that completely tanked, I gotta wonder what Turbine was thinking, it almost felt like they were going after the seseme street crowd, same with EQ2 when it launched. One of those games disappeared, the other listened to the customers and improved thier game.
So, do I want a total destruction of NDAs? On a philosophical level probably, but on a realistic level I do understand that some things should probably be kept quite, but theres a lot that can be divulged without giving away the milk for free.
Its all about making better games.
Serving your customers better so that you can create enthusiastic fans.
Becoming more profitable.
Breaking the terrible stagnation in MMOs.
-Gooney
They are all doing the same thing anyway, surely it cant possibly matter if you call them Health points, Hit points or ...what does Turbine call health...Aura points or some such stupid thing; scratch that who cares. Is anyone, any where, actually doing something so singularily special that it merits all this corporate secrecy? Who doesnt know that Tabula Rasa wont be FPS style? Or that Huxley will, or that the Agency looks cool but its SOE so will probably be stupid, or that Pirates of the Burning Sea will be almost impossible to pull off (face it the Caribbean isnt large enough for 0.0 space...sorry).
The point is that all games are being made within a budget, a certain amount of time for a certain amount of features. Even if they really did have something ground breaking no one else would be able to copy it because they are already assdeep into their own production scheduals. Even if they did manage to find out and implement an innovation, they would do it with the knowledge that it was something thier consumer base would actually want.
Besides, we all have made up our minds by the time open beta launches and NDA drops as to whether or not a game will sink or swim. Just look at all of the releases since EQ2 and Wow. Without exception, every game has performed almost exactly as people had guessed as soon as NDA was lifted. In fact, if you discount fanboy noise, a company could actually use that information to its advantage. If they reacted early enough to it they could probably dial in on to what people actually want.
Think of it as a Web 2.0 idea tranlated to MMOs. Lets call it MMO 2.0.
Just think how DDO would have went if they actually had gone out with thier idea when they still had the chance to make changes. Of course youd still have the problem of some companies failing to see the light even when everyone is telling them they are barking up the wrong tree. I dont know how this could be implemented but Im sure clever people could figure it out.
It is in a companies interest to create a product that their customer base wants. How can they possibly know if their customers dont know what they are doing. Of course, it could be argued that people dont really know what they want, and I'll agree to that, although Im damn certain though that customers know what they dont want. Just look at AC2 and how that completely tanked, I gotta wonder what Turbine was thinking, it almost felt like they were going after the seseme street crowd, same with EQ2 when it launched. One of those games disappeared, the other listened to the customers and improved thier game.
So, do I want a total destruction of NDAs? On a philosophical level probably, but on a realistic level I do understand that some things should probably be kept quite, but theres a lot that can be divulged without giving away the milk for free.
Its all about making better games.
Serving your customers better so that you can create enthusiastic fans.
Becoming more profitable.
Breaking the terrible stagnation in MMOs.
-Gooney
Comments
good post, you make a good argument
it has always seemed funny to me that companies would have an NDA, mostly because if you really are proud of how your game turned out i would think that you would want to promote it through any means nessesary.
your post sounds more like you have a personal issue with a game that you need to verify and communicate to the devs about. one thing you gotta remember here is if YOU personally like the fps-mmo style of game and it's design is more typical rpg-mmo style, no amount of screaming and voicing your opinion about it will change the intended play mechanics of a game in beta, so you can drop those notions.
the thing that makes it really muddied with a beta crowd is that you're testing THEIR game, as their design, if YOU personally don't like the mechanics of the game and want it to be another type of style, then look for a game that's built around that style, don't look to change their game to suit YOUR wants. plain and simple.
____________________________
TheCore
-Gooney
C
Remember, most beta testers are not trained software professionals, they really don't understand the development process (and games are a bit different ) so while one tester might run into an issue and understand that he needs to work with the Dev's to resolve it, another might run right to a forum like this one and voice their displeasure.
Also, many games change their mechanics greatly from the time the beta first comes out until release, WOW made significant changes to Pallys, Mages and other classes as they learned what worked and what didn't.
NDA's allow companies to control the flow of information about a product. Sure, in some cases it helps them disguise a dud....but in others it helps reign in hysteria until the game is more polished and closer to its final form.
There's a lot of reasons why many games fail, and having an NDA (or not) probably isn't a major contributor to it.
Better to blame a lack of research on customer requirements up front than after the fact.....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I disagree with the OP.
It's not all about secrets. Bad press, regardless of how accurate or inaccurate it is, travels much farther and lingers much longer than good press does. Alpha and even early beta builds are always in rough shape so the purpose of an NDA is to keep the kneejerk reactionists and those people who need to feel special trying to break news from potentially wrecking a multi-million dollar investment with cries of "DOOM!!!!11!!" when it isn't justified early on. Yes, I wrote "early on" -- NDA eventually drops before release and the critics can all come pouring in and your decision can then be made whether you'll buy the game or not; at least then you'll have information based on the nearly final product to act upon.
Beta testing last for more then a year for the "AAA" titles. The game will have a lot of changes over that time, you will get people claiming doom and gloom that have no clue because they are not part of the beta.
One possible reason is that many times games that are in beta are in an unfinished state. They may have features that have not been implemented yet or graphics that have not had that final touch up. Companies might be afraid that these missing pieces would garner negative responses from the gaming community even though these pieces were intended to be in place before launch.
edit: yeah, what they ^ said!
But there's a sincere difference between PublicNDA and Company-NDA. Company NDAs make perfect sense, the BetaTester NDAs are defunct, people who play Betas now and days not only never keep to the NDA, but often share their account with their friends.
It's lots of which-hunting that requires too many resources that could be spent more wisely elsewhere.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
Gooney, While in theory these are good points sadly I must tell you from experience.
By the time a title reaches Beta stage it's usually too late for wholesale changes for finacial reasons. In fact for better or worse most fundamental changes to MMO's happen post release like SWG, CoX, EQII. The results of those changes have been mixed at best.
Usually you're core base has been established by the time you reach beta stages. It's usually a matter playability & execution that decides how many new fans you draw in. In other words you usually sink or swim by the time beta arrives.
Truthfully, how often have you actually been pleasently surprised enough to change you're opinion about a title you had no intrest in?
Truth is unless you've an established IP, you're using an original vision plus legacy & focus group data as a meter. As we've seen in the past even that doesn't assure you'll make it.
Dutchess Zarraa Voltayre
Reborn/Zero Sum/Ancient Legacy/Jagged Legion/Feared/Nuke & Pave.
To have a hit game now you have to just about reach WoW levels, or at the very least EQ2 levels. In order to even come close to that you have to have a rock solid track record, there are very very few companies with that kind of pedigree. I can only think of one right now, 2 if you include Koesters new project, but I suspect that Aria wont really appeal to MMORPG.COM fans.
IF on the other hand you dont have a WoW level game on your hands you have absolutly nothing to loose by being free with the info. Someone who actually did have a hit wouldnt copy you anyway, they have a hit right.
Its all about timing. Just because you dont have an NDA doesnt mean that you have to let all of your info out, it just means that what info that is available people can discuss. Through an open dialog new ideas can be examined, things that looked good on paper can be reconsidered, evaluated and discussed, if something isnt working the dev team should know.
Just look at Vanguard as the perfect example. Sure some of the team probably had a pretty good idea what was going to happen when that turkey launched but it is obvious that the decision makers were completely in the dark.
There is some validity to the argument about releasing info then having to deal with fans and constant questions, that can actually work to your advantage though. By coming in early with quality customer service and community managment you can build positive feelings towards your title.
Games these days are made or broke by the buzz. If you release something that tanks its discussed on dozens of gamesites, podcasts, and even webcomics. No game can survive a bad launch now. Some people will remember Anarchy Onlines completey pooched launch, they were able to recover, but now there is simply too much buzz. Witness Dark and Light, that game was completely destroyed by the fans and unrelenting media. Would an open NDA have solved that, probably, it probably would have prevented them from launching a game that was so obviously unprepared, same with Vanguard. Even though both companies in question simply did not have the funding to continue development, both built up so much bad will that neither will ever be thought of kindly again. They even managed to rub off some of thier muck on their partners.
Im not foolish enough to believe that any multinational will ever give up on NDAs, but I do hope that they would become more transparent.
-Gooney
While to the common person the NDA seems foolish, retarded even there's a reason. One most won't like of course. Its to control press spin on the game before launch and to prevent game spoilers; some people actually like to learn about the game world's history, world, and quests on their own. Its also to protect themselves from theft, making it easier for them to go after resource theives. The NDA can and sometimes does cover more grounds then just releasing game information. It also helps protect them from information leaks that could lead to games that are releasing in their time frame from 'stealing' and using their idea first, nature of the beast in a heavily competetive field.
I'll go deeper into what I think on beta tester NDA's this is in no way a fact just my own personal observation.
Beta testers already get forums, gm features, and more to communicate with Dev's to get their point out there, there's little need for this feedback to reach the public ear before the game is released. If beta testers are generally happy with a game's state they easily stay with in the confines of the NDA so as not to 'spoil' the game for players who are not in the beta. BUT if you look at Vanguard the game was so awful alot of non fanboi beta testers spoke out publically regardless of the NDA and it helped warn alot of potentional customers, so there are warning signals for potentional buyers. (not all beta testers go on to buy a game they test, its unfair to speculate that beta testers are the core players, alot of core players never even got into beta)
There's little need for people not involved in the beta to have access to deeper information on the game in my opinion because then all they can do is heavily critizice something they've never actually played which causes unfair negative press and alot of readers can't tell the difference between who actually played and who's just making bad spin without knowledge. Unfair & unwarrented buzz (lies & speculation without knowledge of what its really like) can kill a game worse than a bad launch..
I personally would find little reason to play a game if everything about the game was available on the internet before it launches, it just takes the fun out of a game. But when a game gets such heavy negatives from beta testers during the NDA phase of its beta cycle I'm smart enough to hold off on buying the game at launch, some are not and then they feel heavily cheated despite public outcry.
Beta testers aren't the only ones under NDA, so its not unfair.
The developers, programmers, and anyone associated with the project are under an NDA as well, one of which if they break could result in their firing and even blacklisting by other companies. This is more to keep their technology, resources, and more from being leaked and illegally used for other products. Such as when an employee or hacker (can't remember which he was labled) released the source code to the Half Life 2 (it was either this engine or some other really big one) engine. It was a huge uproar because suddenly these people's hard work was out there for use against the copyright that was on the engine.
Customers are listened too, but developers can't give us everything and have everything work within a reseasonable time constraint.
No company assumes their customers don't know what they want, but they certaintly don't attempt to cater to every single customers tastes. When games get initially pitched its an idea a design team came up with with little thought to a broad audience, or even what sort of programming mechanics are art need to go into it, just simply what they think would be cool. If the game is approved it goes into deeper thinking & design processes. Eventually these processes lead to looking at how to implement the mechanics and often they look at currently released games, and yes they even look at game forums such as this to see what customers are thinking, since games unreleased yet are under NDA they can't possibly lift ideas from that game.
Developers & design teams are most often gamers first so they do have a really good idea what people like. Going into the game industry as a programmer or a designer takes alot of dedication and love for games; otherwise the stressful life in the industry isn't worth it.
NDA's are necessary in my opinion, but it'll never stop real negative press from its testers.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
I posted a while back about devs being to secretive as well and I got responses saying that the devs probably didn't want their game to get "over-hyped" for fear of disappointment upon release.
My feeling is that if they don't have enough confidence in their product to discuss mechanics etc. then they probably shouldn't be making it in the first place.
You make many good points, but I don't think they do it so they won't be copied. They want to be in charge of their own marketing. And given how negative MMO players are these days, letting people talk about it is just asking people to bash you no matter how good the game is.
not completely related to nda and beta but just some of thier secrecy.
My blog:
NDA for beta testers is a formal way of informing game sites, such as this, that any testers sharing their opinion about 'beta' in their forums/mags is a big nono. I don't think they are really meant against testers (since they are not real NDA's anyway), just press.
So, what game are you so eager to hear about? You're trolling the Tabula Rasa forums and expousing not just skepticism (which can be natural) but outright pessimism based on a few trailers without much to back it up. You may counter that without an NDA you could be more open-minded but really it's a glass half-full/half-empty situation entirely based on your outlook. The general public has been afforded some previews to generate buzz -- when they're feeling very confident they've squashed enough bugs, they'll lift the NDA, open up beta and eventually go-live. Have some patience.
Why I don't get is why so many of these posts get deleted when someone breaks an NDA. Who gives a flying leap if they are doing so?
Not as if the board is responsible for what someone posts.
I test software for a living. After playing the Vanguard beta for a couple days it was extremely obvious that to anyone that it had serious issues that were not going be fixed in the near future. I felt horrid that I could not tell anyone. I still feel bad about everyone that had to waste purchasing the game to find that out.
I beta tested Lotro too, pretty solid game, but I got bored fast.
I am beta testing a couple now, and unfortunately have nothing good to say about either. Just have to wait for the NDA to be lifted to give all the fanboys the bad news.
I dont read the ndas, since they are just common sense written down, but i suppose you need that in writting, otherwise they can come up with legal loopholes etc to get away with making money off your game
An NDA or Non Disclosure Agreement is vital for a company whether it is innovative or not. If innovative the obviousness of innovative features being protected gives reason to an NDA. If the game is not innovative the NDA is there to, in theory, protect the company from negative press.
There are other reasons to have an NDA.
- Burying Threads Since 1979 -
An NDA or Non Disclosure Agreement is vital for a company whether it is innovative or not. If innovative the obviousness of innovative features being protected gives reason to an NDA. If the game is not innovative the NDA is there to, in theory, protect the company from negative press.
There are other reasons to have an NDA.
Ahh i miss-read ; /
This is exactly why they should let some players have at their game way before most companies do. If more companies would expose their actual design ideas to the players BEFORE they invest millions of dollars in perfecting those (flawed) mechanics we would have less flops being released and more good games.
C
This is exactly why they should let some players have at their game way before most companies do. If more companies would expose their actual design ideas to the players BEFORE they invest millions of dollars in perfecting those (flawed) mechanics we would have less flops being released and more good games.
C
Just because you aren't invited doesn't mean the developers aren't letting players have access to the game in alpha and early beta....you just don't get to hear about it because of NDA ( ' :
Lets make this perfectly clear. You do not have to defend the companies. Thats not the issue.
The issue is, are NDAs good for gaming and gamers or bad for gaming and gamers?
We, all of us here are gamers of some sort, it is from our point of view that we need to examine this.
I get the feeling that many people defending a particular game or developer (fanboys) are doing it out of some sense of priviledge or something I dunno. Say you raise a legitimate issue about a game a dev or a dev house you are immediatly set upon by frothing gangs of fanboys. I understand this, and I dont really mind it, I do find it amusing that people wrap so much of themselves up into a game or title that is by default nothing but vaporware. A title that no one even knows anything about because of multiple layers of secerecy and NDAs. Thats just stupid. But, its the internet and people are free to act like idiots if they so choose.
A short note about Beta Testing.
I generally stay far away from them, Ive done a few but I dont enjoy working during my play time. Betas are a SERVICE that gamers perform for a game company. I say this again, Beta testing is NOT a privilege, it is a service. You are getting "paid" as a beta tester by receiving early access to a game, the game companies know that that is something that a segment of the gaming population values so enleu of payment they allow player beta testing, also they get to sidestep employment laws and still receive an assload of testing which they normally have to pay for, its a quantity for quality proposition. It is calculated, planned for, and data generated is used for thier work, you are as a beta tester working for free.
-Gooney