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I'm beginning to question the motives of the developers.

What do the publishers want in a game today? Do they want money or do they want a game that you can really get yourself into. Do they want you to experience the most you can out of a game or don't they care about their reputation as a developer. I know that there are many games out there that are crap games that developers make just to earn some cash. With rising monthly fees and rising product prices, who can't help to question their motives. There are also some games that may have been made for their content. Like Ultima Online. UO was created as a follow up from the Ultima series. I think it was created for the content. Not the cash. But some games like EQ, although it is mighty popular, it has like 500 expansions.What do you think?

-Sir Sven

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Comments

  • TaskyZZTaskyZZ Member Posts: 1,476

    They are in it for the money first and foremost of course. Without the money, there can't be a game.

    The desire for money, drives them to make a product that the consumer will buy. So, one is the cause of the other. So, in the end, the consumer gets the product they want because the developer is trying to get the money from the consumer.


  • ianubisiianubisi Member Posts: 4,201

    Businesses do business to make profits. That's how they pay their employees, who work at these businesses to pay their rent and feed their families.

    If you do not like this, then don't buy these games. Instead, support developers who do not work for profits.

  • VITAMADNESSVITAMADNESS Member Posts: 132

    I believe you are putting 2 groups of very different people under the same category. Publishers and developers are hardly ever the same people anymore and are rarely on the same page.

    Developers (Let's say these are the actually programmers), probably care a ton about the content, quality, and everything little thing that goes into these games. Most of these people put a ton of hard work into creating these game and I believe they more then anyone really want to  put out a product that they can be proud of. Are they all going to put out a "WoW" or "EQ2", no, they don't all work for huge developers with tons of experience, talent, and backing. But what they do usually all have is drive, their personal talents (which they put on the line a lot), and really probably want people to enjoy their games.

    Publishers on the other hand care about the games in that they succeed enough to worry about bottom lines. The don't put their heart and sole into creating the games and are not as into the game as they are into making a dollar. They are usually the ones that drive games to being released too early and just don't care as much about the product as the developers. How could they, they are usually not involved day/night for years on end with just a single product. Most publishers handle numerous games and are more interested in getting them mass produced, distributed and sold on given timelines.

    Anyway, that is how I see it.

    Beta'd: Neocron, Planetside, ShadowBane, Horizons, City of Heros, Saga of Ryzom, Lineage II

    Played: EQ, Shadowbane, DAoC, SWG, Anarchy Online, Asherson's Call 2. Earth and Beyond

    Playing: City of Heros, EQ

    Beta'd: Neocron, Planetside, ShadowBane, Horizons, City of Heros, Saga of Ryzom, Lineage II, WoW Stress Test

    Played: EQ, Shadowbane, DAoC, SWG, Anarchy Online, Asherson's Call 2. Earth and Beyond, City of Heros, EQ

    Playing: WAITING FOR WOW and EQ 2

  • JAttractiveJAttractive Member Posts: 149

    What's their to question?

    If you haven't accepted by now that large* businesses exist to make a profit then I don't know what to tell you. That is the nature of a large business, whether it makes computer games or hamburgers.

    So what's the problem here?  The thing is as consumers we have some powerful, indirect control of these businesses. If you don't like how a game is run don't buy it. The market is clearly there for this sort of game and businesses will do their best to try and corner it. Believe me, if they could create the ideal game and while turning a large profit they would. Why wouldn't they? The problem is what they are limited by technology, revenue, expenses etc. Even if the technology was there though for instance they aren't going to lose money to do it or even break even. Especially not when so many MMORPGs are a gamble that are cancelled or money-losers. Who would take that risk out of the goodness of their heart?

    Just keep supporting the good games and let the bad ones die away and things will start to look up. MMORPGs are such a new market though and their have really only been a handful of successful ones to learn from that combined with the length of time it takes to create them it will still be years and years before we start getting anything close to what most of us *really* want.

    *note: I admit some small businesses are run as hobbies where profits are a secondary concern. These exist in the MMORPG market as well and as you can see by the production values they give (ie. 2d graphics etc.) most of us would consider it a waste of our time to even play them let alone support them monetarily... Face it, only the prospects of turning a large profit will drive a company to create the games we want.

  • Sir-SvenSir-Sven Member Posts: 773
    Sorry if I confused you, I didn't mean that companies make the games for money, thats obvious. I thought you would assume that. I meant that the developers are making games only for the cash. With no desire to help the consumer or make them have a great experience. That is what a developing team should base their goals on. To help the consumer and try to make them have the best experience possible.

    -Sir Sven

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  • GruntyGrunty Member EpicPosts: 8,657


    "...To help the consumer and try to make them have the best experience possible."


    No. 1. Your decisions, your actions, your words, your emotions are your own. No one can /make/ you do anything you are not (on some level, conscious or unconscious) willing to do.

    No 2. The customer is /not/ always right.

    --
    "It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
    Thomas Jefferson

    "I used to think the worst thing in life was to be all alone.  It's not.  The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel all alone."  Robin Williams
  • OrccOrcc Member Posts: 3,043
    I think the developers always try to create a good and fun game, but the publishers can screw them ove massively. The perfect example (for those who have been folloing it) would be UXO. The devs wanted to go and create something fun and innovative then the big money hungry conglomerate EA, which cares ONLY about money and not about people who play their games, goes and shuts down Origins, one of the greatest classic gaming companies ever, and move them to their internal offices to save themselves money. They dont care about their games, they care about stuffing their pockets.

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  • m0j0m0j0 Member Posts: 38
    Who cares.... Duh there gunna be in it for the money but in the same way they will attempt to put out the best game possible to out-due the other games getting people to buy theres... it's a pretty simple question... YES they ARE in it for the money.

    image
    Played: Everquest, Ultima Online, Runescape, Lineage 2
    Awaiting: EQ2, WoW (yes both...i'm not taking sides just yet )
    Playing: None!! :( Need a good Free one (not RS)

    image
    Played: Everquest, Ultima Online, Runescape, Lineage 2
    Awaiting: EQ2, WoW (yes both...i'm not taking sides just yet )
    Playing: None!! :( Need a good Free one (not RS)
    Hush little baby, don't say a word, and nevermind that noise you heard... It's just the beast under your bed, in your closet.. in your head! - Metallica - Enter Sandman

  • p00kap00ka Member Posts: 167



    Originally posted by Sir-Sven 
    (snip)

     Like Ultima Online. UO was created as a follow up from the Ultima series. I think it was created for the content. Not the cash. But some games like EQ, although it is mighty popular, it has like 500 expansions.  What do you think?


    -Sir Sven



    I'm not sure what you're getting at here.  First you say that one game was created for the content, then you say another game (although popular) also has lots of content?

    Everquest (while hated by many) is in fact the king of the US MMORPG market.  I would wager that no MMORPG developer has sought funding without mention of EQ's subscription numbers in their business plan or their pitch to a publisher.  Yet, so many people bash it on it's content - why, because the developer wants to sell you expansions to keep the content fresh?

    NEWS FLASH:  They don't make their money on the expansion sales.  They make all the profit on the subscriptions.

    The $50 you pay the day an expansion is released helps to reiumburse the company for the R&D costs of the expansion - and little more.  Once they have sold a satisfactory amount of boxes, the price drops to lure "casual" gamers.  While some people have indeed paid in excess of $200 or $300 for EQ expansions, the vast majority of "new" players are paying far less.  Case in point?  http://www.ebgames.com/ebx/product/244105.asp

    Now...  I just don't see how expansions (which add more content to the game) can be seen as greedy.  Yes, it brings in more revenue - but it's not like they don't put thousands of man hours into developing the content.  To be honest, I'd rather see other companies do what SoE has done with EQ (in terms of the expansions) - that is, if WoW and EQ2 even last 6 years...

    -pooka


     

  • MagmaMayhemMagmaMayhem Member Posts: 47
    There is this term in economics called "profit motive". Look it up. image 

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    No right-minded fool forsakes truth for falsehood

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    No right-minded fool forsakes truth for falsehood

  • p00kap00ka Member Posts: 167



    Originally posted by MagmaMayhem
    There is this term in economics called "profit motive". Look it up. image 

    ---------------------------------------------
    No right-minded fool forsakes truth for falsehood



    There's another one called "supply and demand."  When it's in balance, everyone's happy.  There's no doubt that they hope to turn a profit - the original question was whether they are getting too greedy.  My point is - if everyone is happy consuming the content, what is wrong with the developer making some money satisfying their market?

    If you want to play something where the developer isn't motivated by profit, try a FREE game.

    -pooka

  • OracleP4OracleP4 Member Posts: 495
    There's nothing wrong with developers making a profit.

    -------------------
    "Do I come to your workplace and tell you how to kill civilians? No, so don't tell me how to do my job" - Sam Fischer.

    --OracleP4

    -------------------
    "Do I come to your workplace and tell you how to kill civilians? No, so don't tell me how to do my job" - Sam Fischer.

    --OracleP4

    Like: DAoC, WOW, GW, DnL
    Dislike: SoR, EQ, EQ2, SWG, KO, AC2, CoH
    Don't Care About: Most Everything Else

  • ImsneakyImsneaky Member Posts: 138



    Originally posted by Sir-Sven
    I know that there are many games out there that are crap games that developers make just to earn some cash. With rising monthly fees and rising product prices, who can't help to question their motives. There are also some games that may have been made for their content. Like Ultima Online. UO was created as a follow up from the Ultima series. I think it was created for the content. Not the cash.

    -Sir Sven



    I play WWIIOL and I love it.  It has all I need, cheaters controlled and elimintated, PvP, persistant battlefield, realistic weapons, awesome foilage, constant improvements.

    And yet CRS does not raise the prices and do not charge for expansions.  By far WWIIOL is a great deal for me.  It costs about what HBO costs me and I use it 100 times more often than HBO!

     




    Originally posted by Sir-Sven 
    But some games like EQ, although it is mighty popular, it has like 500 expansions.What do you think?

    -Sir Sven




    Like I said, WWIIOL does not charge extra for anything and the cost is very reasonable IMHO.

    I feel sorry for guys who feel burned by the game a while back because it is quickly becoming what we all wanted.

    Brigade Deployment is right around the corner and this is going to change the game into what every war gamer dreams about.

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  • TaskyZZTaskyZZ Member Posts: 1,476


    Originally posted by Imsneaky
    Brigade Deployment is right around the corner and this is going to change the game into what every war gamer dreams about.

    Please explain this "Brigade Deployment". I played WWIIOL a while back and quit because it was such a pain to get to comabt from the Forward Firepoint spawn points.

    Is this "Brigade Deployment" going to solve that problem?


  • ImsneakyImsneaky Member Posts: 138



    Originally posted by TaskyZZ




    Originally posted by Imsneaky


    Brigade Deployment is right around the corner and this is going to change the game into what every war gamer dreams about.


    Please explain this "Brigade Deployment". I played WWIIOL a while back and quit because it was such a pain to get to comabt from the Forward Firepoint spawn points.

    Is this "Brigade Deployment" going to solve that problem?



    Solve the problem?   Yes, and then some.

    One of the best things about WWIIOL compared to many shooters is that if you kill something it disappears from the spawn list, for 3 hours that is.  With Brigade Deployment the unit disappears forever.  Realistic supply lines will now be set up in the first phase and this will be controlled by the high command players.

    The second phase will be visual supply.  You will be able to interdict those supply lines because trucks and trains will be used to deliver the equipment to the front.  If you kill it before it gets there, well, it affects the front in a very real way.

    The Deployment side of Brigade Deployment has to main features.

    #1 the High Command players determine before the start of a map where the equipment gets distributed to and how much gets put there.  To simplify you could have all tanks in one city and all the infantry in the next city.  I doubt they ever line it up like that but it illustrates the point.  Equipment killed by the enemy is gone for ever and has to be resupplied.  This will no longer have to be done through players driving it forward, it will be done by the High Command players moving the stuff through supply channels.  Eventually, as stated above, this will be visual.  Trains, Convoys, Shipping and Airlifts wil be the main ways this is done.

    #2 The player signs up for a Brigade and his persona is locked to that Brigade.  He goes where that brigade goes.  The Brigade moves as an Army.  The cool thing is that if you are in town X when you log off but while you are sleeping the Brigade captures towns Y and Z, when you log back on you are in town Z.

    If the Enemy is making big pushes in town A,B,C and R,S,T and the High Command wants your Brigade to move north to help in the fighting, your brigade has to move there realisticly.  This will be done in two ways.  Either you drive there or the HC can move the Brigade there like they move supply and your persona will not be available until the HC plants them at a particualr city.

    If this is the case you would have to move to your Air Force persona or your Naval persona and use that one while your Army persona is being transported to the battle.

    This basically means that you will always be involved in a battle or a realitic manoeuver.

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  • TaskyZZTaskyZZ Member Posts: 1,476

    Have to admit, that sounds pretty cool. I might have to come back to that game...

    Lets see if I get the free time. Usually don't have much during the summer. So much to do with my kids when the weather is nice outside.


  • ImsneakyImsneaky Member Posts: 138

    Have you heard about all the other cool stuff that has happened to the game recently?

    The Rats put these cool trees into the game that rival stuff like Operation Flasshpoint or Ghost Recon trees and foilage.  The trees actually move and sway.  The best part is all thos "Hard Forests" are gone.   All of the forests are "enterable" so you can move tanks and infantry directly though them to your objective.  Remember how you had to go around a forest before and wish you could go through it?  Well now you can.  They are very cool.

    Buildings.  Not sure if you were around for the addition of the Depot buildings or not but they are cool.  They have 3 floors and a 4th if you count the roof that you can go up on.  They are 3D so no more Western Movie set buildings.  Well actually some of those are around but the RATS are startign to work on the replacements for those.  The Infantry Barracks have been replaced now and are 2 stories and 3D.

    Submarines are on the way and in fact I saw screenshots of them recently.  Paratroopers are on the way, Germany gets them first as per history.  Bailing is on the way which means that pilots and tank crews will be able to bail out of destroyed equipment to try to get a "Rescued" or "RTB" instead of "KIA" or "MIA".

    Infantry have realistic hand signals for Stop, take cover, move out, double time, etc and these are on hot keys.  The infantry now consists of Riflemaen, SMGs, LMGs, Sappers, Grenadiers, and Commanders.  Medics, Mortarmen and Snipers are not far off.  Engineers are something I've heard rumours about too and rumour has it they will be able to do a variety of things, like repair armor in the field, lay mine fields, block roads in towns/ make tank traps, etc...

    The Navy also has Freighters which we have had alot of fun with doing amphibious assaults.  Best to have some Destroyers along for protection though.  Air cover is very good to have too.  Bombs on a freighter are not good!! image Lot's of dead infantry and tanks.

     

    Lots of cool stuff.

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  • TaskyZZTaskyZZ Member Posts: 1,476

    Yeah, I read about some of this stuff too. I will pobably give it another shot after the summer. The moving trees thing is a huge bonus, for sure. As it was in the past, if you just layed still, any movement you saw was a person or a vehicle, made it easy to spot people. Now, with moving trees, I am sure you can get away with sneaking up on positions a lot easier.


  • ImsneakyImsneaky Member Posts: 138

    About two weeks ago I lead a BKB mission to take down a Hot FB and I got my guys 16 members of BKB) to within feet of the spawns before we started firing.  We killed everything moving and then blew up the FB.

    Coordinated an armor rush and bomb drop for insurance too.  It was simply awesome!

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  • GejianGejian Member Posts: 35

    I think most developers start out wanting a great game, but ultimately the publishers turn it into something else. Point in case. If you ever read the original "bible" for the creation of Earth and Beyond, you would see what a grand game it might have been if the full scope of the "bible" was utilized. However, Electronic Arts, looking to have a finished game and one that is generating revenue pushed to make changes that ultimately doomed EnB. The Sectors where not even half the size of the original sectors and the storyline was so chopped up that most players did not even know what was going on.

    So, I do not question the developers. I question weather the publishers want a good game or money. I think all publishers care about is the bottom line. Until that changes, we will get more and more EQ clones.

    Thats my story and Im sticking to it.image

  • Blood_HawkBlood_Hawk Member Posts: 86

    I agree with Gejian.  The problem I see with most MMORPGs today, is that most of them show great potential but never follow up.  I'm tired of these games generating a big hype and then not living up to it.  Right now everyone is talking about EQ2, but IMHO I seriously doubt EQ2 will live up to the EQ legacy.  The screenshots look nice and the graphics are significantly better than any MMORPG out there right now, but I'd be willing to bet that's all EQ2 is gonna be charging you for.  They'll just be charging you for a game with nice graphics, a wannabe storyline, the EQ name, and nothing else.

    When I look at an MMORPG I think of all the components necessary to make it a great game worth spending my time and money playing.  I used to find it funny how they'd ask you which component you found most important in an MMORPG.  I used to think, "ALL OF THEM!".  I mean that's like asking which one is the public going to be the most satisfied with and which ones can we sacrafice for a quicker release.  It's also poor buisness.  If the publishers rush it to release to make a little money quicker, they're screwing themselves in the long run.  It would be far more beneficial to take some time to produce a product that will maintain a large audience (and growing) for a long period of time.  It's common buisness sense to be thinking about money made in the long run, as oposed to the here and the now.

    All the games now have one or two of the most important components needed to make for a great game.  They should be taking the time to include them all. 

    1. Good Community
    2. Good Graphics
    3. Good Gameplay
    4. Good Storyline
    5. Chalenging Gameplay (NO LEVEL TREDMILL)
    6. Good PVP System
    7. Rules System Preventing Noob Griefing (Depending on the Type of Game)
    8. Good 24 hour support (Several GMs on hand per server to assist players)
    9. ENFORCED POLICY (No Fear in Banning Players Breaking Policy They Agreed To)

    (The order has no importance because they are all EQUALLY IMPORTANT, and if I'm forgetting any important components please feel free to add on)

    But untill these publishers get a little more buisness sense and hold off on "pulling the trigger" too fast on these games, I'll still be waiting for a game to come along that will include all those things not neglecting any area.

  • ImsneakyImsneaky Member Posts: 138



    Originally posted by Blood_Hawk

    When I look at an MMORPG I think of all the components necessary to make it a great game worth spending my time and money playing.  I used to find it funny how they'd ask you which component you found most important in an MMORPG.  I used to think, "ALL OF THEM!".All the games now have one or two of the most important components needed to make for a great game.  They should be taking the time to include them all. 

    Good Community
    Good Graphics
    Good Gameplay
    Good Storyline
    Chalenging Gameplay (NO LEVEL TREDMILL)
    Good PVP System
    Rules System Preventing Noob Griefing (Depending on the Type of Game)
    Good 24 hour support (Several GMs on hand per server to assist players)
    ENFORCED POLICY (No Fear in Banning Players Breaking Policy They Agreed To)
    But untill these publishers get a little more buisness sense and hold off on "pulling the trigger" too fast on these games, I'll still be waiting for a game to come along that will include all those things not neglecting any area.



    1. Good Community image(WWIIOL HAS)
    2. Good Graphics image(WWIIOL HAS AND GETTING BETTER)
    3. Good Gameplay image(WWIIOL = Great)
    4. Good Storyline image(WWIIOL HAS REAL HISTORY)
    5. Challenging Gameplay (NO LEVEL TREDMILL)(WWIIOL HAS GREAT GAMEPLAY)
    6. Good PVP System image(WWIIOL HAS GREAT PVP)
    7. Rules System Preventing Noob Griefing (Depending on the Type of Game)image (WWIIOL HAS NOOB TRAINING AND GAME DOES NOT REALLY DISCRIMINATE AGAINST NOOBS, I GET KILLED BY THEM ALOT.  TOUGHEST THING FOR NOOBS IS GAME IS VERY BIG SO HARD TO LEARN, GOOD THING IS AMNY PEOPLE GO OUT OF THEIR WAY TO TRAIN NOOBS. WE LOVE OUR PRIVATES!image)
    8. Good 24 hour support image(Several GMs on hand per server to assist players) (WWIIOL HAS THIS THROUGH VOLUNTEER TRAINERS AND HIGH COMMAND PLAYERS)
    9. ENFORCED POLICY image(No Fear in Banning Players Breaking Policy They Agreed To) (WWIIOL DEFINITELY HAS THIS, BECOME A PROBELM IN THE GAME AND YOU ARE GONE!  CHEAT ONCE AND YOU ARE GONE!)

     

    Well I guess 8 out of 9 isn't too bad.  Too bad too many people don't know how far the game has come.  Too bad too many people feel burned from 3 years ago and have no idea just how good the game is now.

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  • TaskyZZTaskyZZ Member Posts: 1,476


    Originally posted by Imsneaky

    [*]Good Storyline (WWIIOL HAS NONE)

    Arguably one of the most important story lines in the history of the civilized world!!! :)


  • ImsneakyImsneaky Member Posts: 138

    LOL well yeah it has a very very historical setting and basis for being, I guess I was thinking more of a game like Morrowind.  But in terms of that I was thinking about the single player story lines.

    I guess you are right.

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  • TheFooTheFoo Member UncommonPosts: 44

    Wow, a WWIIOL Fanboi. weeee

    What do they want? Simple. Money. which is why there is no originality.

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