EQ2 issues

rrguima · June 2004

Like many I'm following the info and discussions concerning WoW and EQ2. Like some I am expecting more of EQ2 because the graphics and Races/Classes selection. I believe graphics can make a huge difference in how immersive a MMORPG can be and from I've seen EQ2 graphics will be incredible while WoW will be more cartoonish which some people like. I do not. The intention of this is not to make a WoW vs EQ2 thread.

I like the race selection of EQ2 as well, yes I even like the Iksar, I do not believe everything out of Tolkiens scope is wrong, Dragonlance saga for instance has draconians (which are Lizardmen). Heck even my favorite Fantasy saga is not LOTR but "a song of ice and fire" by George Martin, even though I understand LOTR started it all (and its darn good too:).

I've got a couple of problems with whatever I'm hearing concerning EQ2:

1. IMO one of the reasons of how immersive EQ is (besides its graphics - not just the quality but its style) cultural differences of different cities and races. Now they are putting all the races together in the same 2 towns... It feels like a step back. I remember first time I've played EQ, a high elf mage hunting just outside of crushbone and suddenly I see a troll. Man what a sight, of course he was safely far away from the elf guards.

2. I've read they want to disallow kiting ! I believe thats the main reason EQs PvE is superior to others. For you have so many options and ways to kill a mob.

3. Item decay. I understand it is done to better control the economy in-game but it doesn't work very well. You work so hard, for a drop or to buy an item and then it decays. Some ppl say its the way RL is thus its the way it should be in game. I don't agree, timing in RL is very different than in a MMORPG. Also you are paying for that. What you've worked for, either an item or experience, should not just go poof.

I'd appreciate other opinions on the subject(s).

Thank you.

rrguima · June 2004

well according to this:

http://home.rochester.rr.com/mirkwood/

Item decay wont be too bad in EQ2.

Instancing on the other hand sounds like removing the MM from MMORPG, even if just a little.

Crestguard · June 2004

1. IMO one of the reasons of how immersive EQ is (besides its graphics - not just the quality but its style) cultural differences of different cities and races. Now they are putting all the races together in the same 2 towns... It feels like a step back.
The starting cities have districts, I think there are 6 in each. And two or three races share each district. Each of these areas has a flavor of home allowing for people to feel that there is a distinction from each area. Also, there will be some of the remaining cities, but they are not open for starting points. There is no reason why you cant return to your roots.
2. I've read they want to disallow kiting ! I believe thats the main reason EQs PvE is superior to others. For you have so many options and ways to kill a mob.
There will be many ways to defeat mobs in EQ2, but kiting won't be one of them. Some people felt kiting was a sort of exploit of the game. While anyone who tells you it isn't, is most likely using it. Regardless, this doesn't mean you won't be able to solo, you will just have to figure out another strategy in which to do it. The team has said that they want strategy to be a more important aspect of the fighting, and that means it will be a little bit more complicated than snare + dot + run away.
3. Item decay. I understand it is done to better control the economy in-game but it doesn't work very well. You work so hard, for a drop or to buy an item and then it decays. Some ppl say its the way RL is thus its the way it should be in game. I don't agree, timing in RL is very different than in a MMORPG. Also you are paying for that. What you've worked for, either an item or experience, should not just go poof.
Items decay, but do not dissapear or break. The idea right now is that when you die your items that you are wearing decay 4%, meaning if you die 25 times they will be useless. You can repair them however, but the idea for now is that you can only do that a set amount of times before it becomes too expensive. (You will see how many times you can repair an item before the price jumps). While this forces people to constantly repair or upgrade to better gear, a very important money sink, the team has said that higher end items will not decay at all. Also, the team has said if some classes (like fighters) have to spend more money on repairing items they might make the decay less for them, or more for other classes. They are still tooling around with it, and this is one of the most flexible aspects of the game that is sure to change during beta.

Avandol · June 2004

Originally posted by rrguima
Like many I'm following the info and discussions concerning WoW and EQ2. Like some I am expecting more of EQ2 because the graphics and Races/Classes selection. I believe graphics can make a huge difference in how immersive a MMORPG can be and from I've seen EQ2 graphics will be incredible while WoW will be more cartoonish which some people like. I do not. The intention of this is not to make a WoW vs EQ2 thread.

--> Warcraft always had their "own" style. EQ is still alot more "cartoonish" as you call it, than most other MMORPGs at the moment, they have their own fantasy style. You are right in your point, its pretty much personal preference, though I must say that I am a fan of both.

I like the race selection of EQ2 as well, yes I even like the Iksar, I do not believe everything out of Tolkiens scope is wrong, Dragonlance saga for instance has draconians (which are Lizardmen). Heck even my favorite Fantasy saga is not LOTR but "a song of ice and fire" by George Martin, even though I understand LOTR started it all (and its darn good too:).

--> LOTR didnt really "start" the fantasy genre . Fantasy and science fiction have been an integral part of human literature for millenia. LOTR started what we today call the high fantasy genre though, so you've got a point.

I've got a couple of problems with whatever I'm hearing concerning EQ2:

1. IMO one of the reasons of how immersive EQ is (besides its graphics - not just the quality but its style) cultural differences of different cities and races. Now they are putting all the races together in the same 2 towns... It feels like a step back. I remember first time I've played EQ, a high elf mage hunting just outside of crushbone and suddenly I see a troll. Man what a sight, of course he was safely far away from the elf guards.

--> It was a time of fresh beginnings, the dawn of an era when we walked Norrath for the first time. You cannot ever get that feeling back

This is Norrath rising from the ashes, its something not totally new with a background no other MMORPG can deliver. I would wait and see. I don't think its a step back. While it certainly added to the flair of the game that feeling has long since subsided in EQ. If you walk around in GFay now you are prone to see people using the wildest array of equipment imaginable, trolls and viler creatures are a common sight.

Still, people keep playing the game, so it cannot be a big aspect. IMHO EQ gains its customer base by the ongoing quest of becoming better equipped or more powerful ... I'll just get this drop x, then I'll go to bed, I'll just finish this raid, then I'll do x in RL, I'll just get this level, hun, then I'll come to bed - sound familiar ?

2. I've read they want to disallow kiting ! I believe thats the main reason EQs PvE is superior to others. For you have so many options and ways to kill a mob.

--> Kiting is one tactic amongst many, you can use it in many other MMORPGs too. And I pretty much agree with the prior poster about it being a kind of exploit. I used it alot btw, but I dont see it as a good way to combat in a PC Game, reducing risk pretty much to zero.

And if you've kited in the planes of power yet, you will see that kiting hasnt by far the position it had in the first three years of EQ. IMHO its overrted

3. Item decay. I understand it is done to better control the economy in-game but it doesn't work very well. You work so hard, for a drop or to buy an item and then it decays. Some ppl say its the way RL is thus its the way it should be in game. I don't agree, timing in RL is very different than in a MMORPG. Also you are paying for that. What you've worked for, either an item or experience, should not just go poof.

--> I feel like you do about item decay, if it is used as in M 59 , e.g. . One cannot compare it to RL, if you dont implement a super complex item usage system. Just for starters : If you handle items in RL carefully you'll be able to use them till you are an old fart and then some. I myself have some silver cutlery inherited which is some hundred years old and a prayer book from 1726 in my shelves.

The silver still looks very good and I use it daily. The book is in good shape and readable any time.

The way they described the decay process sounds very good though. It will prevent money hoarding as in EQ, at the very least it will delay the point of price decay.

Between the three of us we had several 100K's of pp's in EQ and we didnt belong to the really rich of the server. Looking to the fact that a casual player probably never sees more than 5K and teh very STRNAGE way people set prices in MMORPGs I , for one, am not unhappy about item decay in EQ2. IF it works like they intended it. ( Uh oh - working as intended haha )

I'd appreciate other opinions on the subject(s).

Thank you.

Hope my comments dont go down the wrong way, text is such a feeble way to communicate a current matter, especially if emotions are included.

Avandol Sulrissil
The Ugly

Coldmeat · June 2004

I spent the majority of my time in EQ as a Druid. As such, I wasn't very usefull in groups after level 39 or so. I understand that's been improved since then with Druids/Shaman getting a minor version of CHeal, and so on. Basically, the easiest way for me to level was soloing, which came in two flavors. root and dot, or kite. I chose kiting. It beat the hell out of sitting on my ass doing nothing for 2 hours begging for someone with an empty slot to take me in their group, which invariably meant I was the only healer, and my best heal at the time was not worth a damn.

While I remember there was always alot of bitching about Druids kiting, I always thought it was pretty funny. 1 I never trained anyone while kiting, 2 If any of these people let me in their group, I wouldn't have been kiting ::::12:: .

I don't think kiting as an exploit. Just using the tools I was given in an effective manner. Now had I been using some pathing bug to stay away from the mob, then yeah. I'd say the AE groups that started with SoL, or Bard's mass kiting mobs in the planes would be closer to exploiting, and even then I'd be hesitant to label it as such. Not in the true spirit of the game, perhaps, but it's the devs that provided these powers to the classes. If they had a problem with people kiting, or taking out whole zones in AE groups, then they could have tweaked ensnare to wear off quicker, etc. IIRC they did change a couple zones where people were AoEing in SoL, but that just moved them all to other zones like Sebilis, and that was the last I heard of it from the devs.

I finally got to see some movies of EQ2 being played off Gamespy. The graphics where nice, and there didn't seem to be much, if any choppiness. However, there were only 3 players on screen, and only a few mobs in the one showcasing the combat. The actual combat looked about the same as EQ visually. There was one nice thing I noticed, though. They added an HP bar above the characters just below their name, and damage numbers float up from the characters heads as well. Makes playing a healer a bit easier, as I don't have to divide my attention between the action and the group window as much.

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They panic, so just hold them down
I could live like this
I'm closing in; hate all around
I could be like this
Hearing them, them in my head
How could they be so sweet... sweet?

khalysta · June 2004

In regards to the kiting they are building special solo based content so you really won't need to kit in that respect. Combat is also totally different now. You have super fast power regen in around a minute to regen from 0 power so mage kiters would hardly have any downtime. The other aspect of combat is that the mobs are much much lower hit points now and more in line with the players hit points. So again that would only aid kiting. So with all these changes they really had to do away with it or else the ae classes would never group with the other classes.

Acaeus · June 2004

This is the original poster, rrguima....

Crestguar and Avandol I hear you and agree concerning item decay I now belive its going to be done right on eq2. Agree that the districts will make some sense even though I believe they will not reproduce the same feeling the original EQ had before the portals were introuced. Thus to me this one is still a step back, not a huge one though. I bet it was much easier for the devs to create districts instead of entire towns in diferent areas.

I agree with Coldmeat, kiting was never an exploit. It was a valid and legit way to use the powers available to you.

Besides, Kiting was FUN ! Khalysta, my point was never about how difficult or easy it was to kill a mob. But how much fun it was to use kiting. Kiting involved so many variables, like other mobs in the zone, other players, landscape, etc. My main was a troll shaman, most of the time I'd use root and rot, but I could try and take some difficult mobs sometimes using kiting. It was not easy for me(Shm dont have slow only SOW), nor safe, but a lot of fun. Mana pool would be depleted at the end of fight, but it was my choice.

I mean it was much better than doing the same thing over and over again, without options. Kiting was just a little unpredictable, for the one doing the kiting and the others in the zone as well.

I think instead of getting rid of it, they should fix it. Make AE spells cost a lot of mana, or do the same with the druid slow. There are many ways to balance the game. The simplistic one is to remove something that made the game unique.

BTW, DAOC does not allow kiting and DAOC has a very boring PvE. It makes up for it with a very interesting RvR though.

Gnarled · June 2004

Kiting was a tolerated exploit, obviously the designers never intended druids to run in circles like idiots being chased by several mobs with no chance of being hit. IMO it ruins immersion and any sense of RP, I'm glad they are taking it out. One thing AC2 was good at (and there wasn't much) was disallowing gameplay exploits like kiting and perching.

"I can tell you with no ego, this is my finest sword. If, on your journey, you should encounter God. . .
. . . God will be cut."
- Quentin Tarantino, Kill Bill

Bobiin · June 2004

EQ2 is gonna be the best. they have every little thing planned out, i was reading the dev logs, it sounds amazing

--Nyture, Arc Convoker of fironia vie server (EQ) --Retired--

Explorer 66%
Socializer 60%
Killer 53%
Achiever 20%

brostyn · June 2004

I'm not sure if kiting was intended or it evolved into an acceptable strategy. Certainly, though, the root and shoot method was intended which is very close to kiting. I've been disappointed by every new MMORPG that was suppose to "change everything", starting with Shadowbane, then AC2, Horizons CoH. I am not getting my hopes up on EQ2, or WoW or Guild Wars.

rosswatko · June 2004

im ok without the kiting being taking out but i really hate decay..... it made me pissed in SWG

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o-('.'o-)

Dont test me, they cant arrest me! 0o

Acaeus · June 2004

brostyn, I couldn't agree more.

Like kiting or not it was something different than the regular VERY simple combat sistem implemented by ALL MMORPGs.

Also, swarm kiting and kiting are different things. Swarm kiting could be controlled just upping the mana cost of the AE spells.

I'm just concerned that they will make the combat system, thus the game itself much simpler than the original EQ. In EQ, Warriors for instance were almost broken compared to casters and hybrids. I'm sure Warriors will be fine in EQ2, I just hope that the more complex classes don't get simplified in the name of game balance.

OK, maybe I am expecting too much...

Crestguard · June 2004

Originally posted by Acaeus

I'm just concerned that they will make the combat system, thus the game itself much simpler than the original EQ. In EQ, Warriors for instance were almost broken compared to casters and hybrids. I'm sure Warriors will be fine in EQ2, I just hope that the more complex classes don't get simplified in the name of game balance.

OK, maybe I am expecting too much...

The battles we have seen are just tests, and of the videos just show short, non-complex fighting. I think that casters will actually be more complex than they were in EQ1. The spells that they have released already seem to be a lot more complex than the old ones. Since now you have a set amount of concentration you can't simply have a buff for every stat or bonus, otherwise you'd barely be able to buff one person. So now there are spells that do a number of things in one, forcing you to use different spells at different times and actually plan which to use, instead of just throwing them on every person in the group. Also, as the game now has 7 different resistances, that could lead to 7 different spell types, and by really adjusting the NPC's resistances to fit certain ways you can make them have weaknesses and strengths so that you don't automatically use your latest high powered DD or bolt, but have to adjust to use the one that would work best in the situation. This could also lead to have you have to find different versions of spells which would be for different elements, and then need to level them up through sagecraft and whatnot. Thats just speculation though.

raptorfalcon · June 2004

quote:

"Items decay, but do not dissapear or break. The idea right now is that when you die your items that you are wearing decay 4%, meaning if you die 25 times they will be useless. You can repair them however, but the idea for now is that you can only do that a set amount of times before it becomes too expensive. (You will see how many times you can repair an item before the price jumps)."

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As far as I know they do not work like this anymore. Items now have infinite cheap repairs.

Chris Cao:"Every time a player dies, all of his equipped items take wear and he loses part of his spirit (in the form of a corpse-like shard). Items can be repaired indefinitely for a price, but spirit..."(Gamespy interview about Gameplay).

grgrgr cant find Moorgard's quote.. but I know I saw it somewhere. If someone finds it pease post.

Also, even though races will be grouped in the same city they start at different places, and like someone else said.. even though some cities are not available as starting cities doesnt mean they do not exist.. EQ2 is all about rediscoverying the world..

Crestguard · June 2004

You can repair as many times as you want, but I doubt there is the infinite cheap repair, I remember reading that along with the stats on the weapons is how many more times it would be worth repairing the weapon before it becomes so worn that it's just too difficult (or for our case, expensive) to do it. And that was from a interview from a week or two ago, I'll look for a link.

raptorfalcon · June 2004

OK here is what I found..

http://radio.ogaming.com/data/1151~May27Transcript.php

This interview was recorded live from Online Gaming Radio on Thursday May 27th

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Berek-Halfhand: I believe in the past it was stated that certain level items would become non-decayable upon death. Could you elaborate on this a little big more. Is it high end feature only, or are there measures in place where you can flag certain items to no have a decay rate?

Moorgard: When I talked about that, that was really in place when our idea was that items could only be repaired a certain number of times before it became impractical to repair them and we kind of abandoned that idea because it was unfun and too databasie. It just wasn't playing out that well. Now items take damage when you die a relatively small percentage of damage, but the idea of item repair is mostly as a moneysink. It costs more as you get a higher level, as you get the rarer items, it will cost more to repair, but that's just to keep them money coming out of the economy. That's not a matter of trying to make it a penalty for players having to keep paying that. It's more a recycling of money type of thing.
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From other sources I got that item decay is currently 4% and from this post I conclude that The higher level the item, the more it will always cost to repair it.. but that price DOES NOT CHANGE.. meaning you can repair it as many times as you want with the only thing changing price being the level of the item. So.. for ex. crappy sword 1$ to repair... super high lvl sword 1000$ to repair.. no matter how many times you do it..

If someone else finds a more recent quote or can clear the matter better please post.

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