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General: MMOWTF: From Sandbox to Linear and back
Stradden
Managing EditorMember CommonPosts: 6,696
Weekly MMORPG.com columnist Dan Fortier talks about getting a balanced diet of both freeform sandbox-style games and linear progression games.
This week's topic was inspired by a gamer associate of mine and his trek between games with two vastly different play styles: Eve Online and World of Warcraft. It brought to mind all the times I was completely fixated on a game, yet still found myself wanting to play something completely different from time to time to break out of the mould and experience something completely different. Just like having something sweet after you've just eaten a bunch of pretzels makes it taste even better, playing a game with a polar opposite play style, can give you a better appreciation for a game which you've become bored with.
Even the most hardcore among us need a release valve of sorts to avoid getting burnt out. In this case, my friend (We'll call him Harold), was a major player in a rather large Alliance in Eve for over two years. His experience with other MMOs was limited since he was not interested in playing a game with grind and tedious time-sinks. Several others in the circle of people we all know play WoW across a wide variety of servers and we all share our different stories in all the different games we play. Harold decided that he should branch out and try something different while keeping his account on cruise control. He is enjoying his MMO vacation in Azaroth as we speak for a few key reasons:
Read the whole article here.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Comments
I know we have plenty of people with the imagination and skills to assemble this into such a site feature.
I played Eve and Daoc for a while sometimes at the same time on different computers, whats the beef?
'Sandbox to Linear', when are we going to have a sandbox mmoRPG, we have done the swords and sorcery bit to death now, the linear progression.
When can we chop down or plant forests? When can we build structures, not premade buildings, but atually design buildings based on physics rules ? When can we atually MINE ore and CREATE cave networks? It would be so nice to leave a persistant mark on a games server, they are marketed as 'persistant' worlds, but nothing a player can do remains when he logs out (no I am not counting housing zones or auctions) so the persistance to my mind is just marketing drivel.
As it stands the majority of MMOs are kiddies playgrounds (and I have been playing them for 6years+), you login, have your fun and log out, changing nothing log term in the game world.... and we pay for the chance to do nothing!
I want to invest my time, create and shape worlds in a game setting that affects players even when I am logged off, EVE-online does this with the player owned stations (but the death penalty and skill system is bad), why can't we see it in a MMORPG? AoC, WAR, its just more of the same, and us older gamers are getting bored of the devs, lack of imagination and milking already done genres for more $$$. A little original imagination in some game design would be nice
Bring on the mmoRPG sandboxes 
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Indeed nice articel
And this line in particulair: Even the most hardcore among us need a release valve of sorts to avoid getting burnt out., which obviously not everyone is able to do this( see lots and lots of forum sections all over the internet, not just here only
that have sections or are dicated to mmorpg)
And thats is what i feel is going wrong, to many peole expect the same sort of gamestyle in all the games they play as they seem to be unable to judge a game by itself or on its own. (again look at all forum sections of all games if you ned proof of this)
So again Nice Articel
"When you put a game into its true context of a fun hobby instead of another rabid obsession to a narrow viewpoint, you can begin to spread your roots a little deeper. "
How true. If we could all just hold on to this truth, it would be much, much easier to get along.
UO-EQ1-SWG-DAOC-WOW-EQ2-WAR-GW2-RIFT
1. Being a dragon in Horizons allows you to build a lair somewhere in the world. You dig it yourself and design it yourself. It isn't really a housing zone since you can do it anywhere.
2. There is always 10six, or as it's now known, Project Visitor. Very persistent, as your various plots of land can be attacked and taken at anytime, even when you're offline.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Visitor
3. There's A Tale In The Desert, which is COMPLETELY open besides a storyline that resets every so often. I haven't played it much but I'm sure someone has and can explain it more thoroughly. I just know to make planks of wood for a fence around some land I wanted, I had to chop down a tree, which fell afterwards, then chop it into pieces, then use another tool to make them into planks.
4. Blockland? Sure it's legos, but building a structure from nothing is still enjoyable.
I'll give Project Visitor a look, ive never heard of that!
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SWG was (kinda still is) a sandbox type game, and really allot of the concepts in that game are light years ahead of the challenges most people are willing to put up with in an MMO. I mean, who would want to mess with finding a place to put a house down at so they can store some of their extra stuff? Just give them a 200-400 slot inventory enhancement and be done with it right?
“OMG that city next to me expanded and now I’m part of it and I have to pay Taxes?”
“Hell I guess I’ll run for mayor there and take it over than now that I’m a resident.”
Well maybe someday people will want more in MMORPG games. It's just the natural progression of things. It may take a while though. Sometimes its fun I guess to pick up a game and mindlessly hack and slash and not have to worry about whether your harvester is full, or whether your house has enough maintenance, at the same time 40 Storm troopers are dropping down on you in the middle of nowhere. But I like adventure and challenge and at one time (2 years ago) SWG provided the right amount of that. Going from a game such as Diablo 2, to SWG was like going from Black and white to High Def over night.
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
I'll tell you why, and it's the simplest reason of all -- because that requires a fully destructible environment. Give a certain subset of players the opportunity to destroy the world and they will devote all their time and energy to doing exactly that. The ultimate grief "LAWL i k1LL3d ur w0rld n00bz!" Yes, it would happen.
I'm all in favor of sandbox elements, but there has to be limits. I'd be happy with semi-destructible environments (earth/rock/etc.) that perhaps would fix itself (respawn the original asset) over a long period (several hours minimum, a few days preferably) while the server could maintain the "natural order of things" so if we destroy forests, the trees with gradually regrow themselves. Perhaps we might have a slight hand in the outcome where over a large period of time the forest is using a different landmass than originally, or it's smaller or larger than the original. And the animals' behavior patterns would shift to match as they follow their forest.
For me personally, I'd be all over a AAA title that was skills-based (character skills) not level/gear based that had both sandbox elements, and the so-called "linear" quest lines we see in the majority of titles these days. Give me the choice whether to go off and do my own thing (which I do anyway even in the "linear" games) or to check my quest log and be "led around by the nose."
I'll tell you why, and it's the simplest reason of all -- because that requires a fully destructible environment. Give a certain subset of players the opportunity to destroy the world and they will devote all their time and energy to doing exactly that. The ultimate grief "LAWL i k1LL3d ur w0rld n00bz!" Yes, it would happen.
Yes, the land would get hollowed out, even destroyed over time, and people would want to destroy it (greifers), so, some kind of maintance would be needed to upkeep the terrian morph, as skill points to morph the land etc, I'm sure there is a mechinism that would work, maybe an ebay type rating system, to moderate the land...?
I'm all in favor of sandbox elements, but there has to be limits. I'd be happy with semi-destructible environments (earth/rock/etc.) that perhaps would fix itself (respawn the original asset) over a long period (several hours minimum, a few days preferably) while the server could maintain the "natural order of things" so if we destroy forests, the trees with gradually regrow themselves.
Yes! though it would be fun finding an old cave/mine full of an ex-players loot, all mossed over two years after he left the game - I think Dark and Light needed to happen, the concept for this was there, sadly the developers had issues.
Perhaps we might have a slight hand in the outcome where over a large period of time the forest is using a different landmass than originally, or it's smaller or larger than the original. And the animals' behavior patterns would shift to match as they follow their forest.#
Yup, a fully morphable enviroment and eco-system, it would probably need an AI or community collective to run it though, I wish we was here technology-wise, thugh I am pretty sure if there is any real planet left, our kids will be playing this type of mmorpg world (and I'll be crafting at the age of 100 in RL too
)
For me personally, I'd be all over a AAA title that was skills-based (character skills) not level/gear based that had both sandbox elements, and the so-called "linear" quest lines we see in the majority of titles these days. Give me the choice whether to go off and do my own thing (which I do anyway even in the "linear" games) or to check my quest log and be "led around by the nose."Both skills and gear has it's place, there is a 'old mmorpg syndrome' though that makes items n gear far to uber after a couple of years, the devs need to think ahead about that to stop it happening or old content never gets revisited by new players. Skill based (not eve-type lo) is the best way, take WoW for example, the skills are severly limited when compared to Doac's 'specing'.
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I hate being a member of the spelling/grammar police, but it's a serious problem on this website and it degrades the image of professionalism and reputability. If you guys need a proofreader, send me an email; I'll gladly do it for nothing.
Way to go buddy
I played both EVE and WoW. EvE is one of the most innovative games out there.
EvE character development could take very long because you only learn 1 skill at time, but you can learn all the skills. In EVE, you can only control your ship movement by clicking where to go, and you can not move it like FPS games. Also, you only see your ship all the time, not the character body.
In EvE, if you want to earn money faster, you need to be in a large alliance that controls large area of 0.0 security systems. If you can get into those alliances, you will see the fun side of EVE. I quitted the game because my corp can’t get into big alliance, and “employees” ( the corp members ) keep on leaving, so it gets inactive eventually, and I was trying other MMOs like WoW, then I quitted it finally.
WoW is different game from EvE. It has simply learning curve, and the game basic is very easy to learn, so it’s easy to pick up for entry level gamers ( specially kids ). Blizzard really made WoW for everyone, so that’s why they have so high subscription rates. However, the game is quite sample and flat, to me, and more important why I quitted WoW is the class not balance, physic engine sucks ( range class can shoot you behind edge of walls, small hill, and some trees ), and gear dependent ( rather than skill dependent which has been the issue of recent year MMORPGs ).
I'll tell you why, and it's the simplest reason of all -- because that requires a fully destructible environment. Give a certain subset of players the opportunity to destroy the world and they will devote all their time and energy to doing exactly that. The ultimate grief "LAWL i k1LL3d ur w0rld n00bz!" Yes, it would happen.
I'm all in favor of sandbox elements, but there has to be limits. I'd be happy with semi-destructible environments (earth/rock/etc.) that perhaps would fix itself (respawn the original asset) over a long period (several hours minimum, a few days preferably) while the server could maintain the "natural order of things" so if we destroy forests, the trees with gradually regrow themselves. Perhaps we might have a slight hand in the outcome where over a large period of time the forest is using a different landmass than originally, or it's smaller or larger than the original. And the animals' behavior patterns would shift to match as they follow their forest.
For me personally, I'd be all over a AAA title that was skills-based (character skills) not level/gear based that had both sandbox elements, and the so-called "linear" quest lines we see in the majority of titles these days. Give me the choice whether to go off and do my own thing (which I do anyway even in the "linear" games) or to check my quest log and be "led around by the nose."
good ideas here. that is something I didnt fully consider oyu have a good, strong creative mind there
I think EVE abuses the Sci-Fi concept a little too much in order to create an intheior product. I mean, look at combat. I'll admit, most MMOs don't have that great of a combate system but in EVE you get three choices, you can move closer, you can move farther away, or you can stay in place. Then you get some guy trying to defend the game "But you have to stay in optimial range for your weapons!" BLAH BLAH BLAH! Foward, Back, Stay. Lame. I'd really like to see something where you actually have to point your ship and it's guns at the other ship. Maybe make the target box kind of big so that it's not so clicky or FPS. And maybe let people steer their own ships, explore the 360 degrees that space gives you. But I think the biggest slap in the face in EVE of all is that hardly any of the planets are explorable. I mean, can you name one sucsessful Sci-Fi book, show, movie or anything at all where 95% of it is just "Wee! I'm flying through space! Look at me going from one planet to another, breifly stoping, and then going back again!"?
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wurm online allows ya to do that. its made by a small team and the graphics not the best thus its not really known. but it allows exactly that, chopping down trees and building houses.
2nd: sandbox mmo "games" are better defined by world simulators. It's like comparing Ace Combat (an arcade airplane game) with il2-sturmovik (a hardcore simulator, almost real phisics, etc). The concept "fun" is also different, like in some hobbies you're not having "fun" all the time, just think in modelism.
good read!
but what about the person who plays linear games and wants to try a sand box style game? Its hard to find! We need more sandbox games
*prays darkfall isnt vapor*
What we do need to get away from is this kind of system. I'm not saying that its a bad system in itself, but I don't want every game to be like this.
I do agree that sometimes a change of pace is needed. Sometimes I get rather sick of the traditional fantasty type games and want to do something different. I did try EVE, but I found it lacking compared to ol' Earth & Beyond. Now, I'm not saying EVE sucks just I preferred E&B over it. EVE had very nice eye candy I'd have to say though.
My "alternate" MMOG has always been City of Heroes/Villains. It's a game you can jump into for 15-20mins and accomplish something if you just need a quick fix or don't have a lot of time. Being a superhero-theme game it surely is different from the hack & grind of WoW, EQ2 or such.
I love Sandbox style games a lot. I like to be able to make my mark on the world, and become an active part of an in-game economy. Nothing gives you the freedom to personalize your game experience like a sandbox style game. As a working adult I just can't seem to get into the linear level based games. I have tried many City of Heros/Villians, Silkroad, and Lord of the Rings to name a few. In the end they all seem to be rather similar. Yeah so in one your wearing tights and in another your wearing armor, but your still doing the same crap go hear kill this deliver this to so and so. How is that rewarding? How do you differentiate yourself from others? I know kids and teenagers all pride themselves on sameness and being part of the group, but lets face it by the time you hit 30 that gets old.
In the begining of online gaming we were blessed with at least a decent amount of sandbox style games. Ultima Online, and SWG Pre-Cu, and to a lesser degree post CU, but it seems like these games are a dying breed. Now that computer gaming has gone mainstream developers are writing games to the least common denominator in order to reap the largest profit.
Perhaps one day when the current group of kids and teens join the ranks of adulthood there will once again be a large enough percentage of the market that wants the control that sandbox style offers. Until then I guess I better get use to playing EVE forever if I want some freedom. I know there are others out there I tried Roma Victor, but while that game had an amazing amount of freedom it was too much like being at work. First and foremost a game needs to be fun. I don't want to play Eve forever after two years I am starting to get tired of it. I guess there is only one place left for me, and other like me to go out of the market...........
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It would be very hard to find a game that always gives what a player wants from day to day. It would be impossible to make a game that could please all players all the time. So depending on what you want, having more than one game is the best bet for different cravings. Yeah, good example in the article.
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This is kinda sums up why the haters need to stay out of the Vanguard/DDO etc etc forums. Each to their own.
Ummm.....
The entire Star Trek Franchise,short of DS9, for one.