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Villains or just dark heroes?

Deathstrike2Deathstrike2 Member UncommonPosts: 1,777
in City of Villains

Even from the beginning, CoV just doesn't feel all that villainous.  The main groups that you fight for most of the game are other villain groups.  With very few exceptions, the missions just seem like a rehashed hero missions.  Why is CoV so goodie goodie?

 

Comments

  • zmrzzmrz Member Posts: 10
    Thats true but i personaly got that Villain fealing when killing heroes in PVP zones
  • mudkip9001mudkip9001 Member Posts: 37
    yes vandalizing cities, beating up police officers and robbing banks hardly seems villainous
  • tkemorytkemory Member Posts: 11
    I actually agree with the OP, I have to be careful with my costume design otherwise I end up deleting what looks too much like a Hero costume.



    I also joked in a team the other day about the bystanders when you do for example a bank job.  They run around but you can't do anything to them.
  • AnofalyeAnofalye Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 7,433

    I feel villainous while playing.

     

    Of course, there are some story arc where you are actually more a dark hero, but these are minority and...they can be explained.

     

    Random murder is not villainous, it is dumb.  A villain will protect the orphan and the widow, might team rape them, but eh, we have a rating of less then 18-, so you have to read between the lines.  But killing the orphan or the widow makes no sense.  A Villain is extremely selfish, not some random mass murderer.  A Villains want the control for himself, hurting and even killing innocent isn't problematic, but the villain won't kill innocents for the pleasure of killing them...he might hurt them a little for his self pleasure however.

     

    There is no point in ruling a desert.  You needs you peons alive and protected...the price of protection is...

     

    A mass murderer should be alone, in some desert.  A villain would hunt down someone who is killing his peons, not to protect his peons, to protect his social domination.  This also explain why a villain often torture the hero up to the point the hero manages to escape...killing the hero is for the weaker villains, the stronger one they want pleasure from dominating overpowered fools.

    - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren

  • tkemorytkemory Member Posts: 11
    Man we have to agree to disagree.  Most Villains could care less about the general public and would gladly sacrifice them as the end to a mean.



    It's rare that villains show compassion in lore, with the exception of villains that are always teetering on the edge (ex. Darth Vader).



    So I guess I am not getting your reference.



    I did a mission last night where I was kidnapping construction workers, only it looked like to me I was rescuing them.  They were surrounded by clockwork, I killed the clockwork the construction workers followed me to the exit.



    A villain would never save construction workers for any reason.



    Also most villains don't really care for their own kind if they aren't immediately beneficial to them.  Example X-Men 3 Movie where Magneto tosses aside his right-hand woman the minute she loses her powers.



    Sorry just don't see it, and I agree still with the original poster they need to make it feel more villainous!
  • VaedurVaedur Member Posts: 430
    Originally posted by tkemory

    Man we have to agree to disagree.  Most Villains could care less about the general public and would gladly sacrifice them as the end to a mean.



    It's rare that villains show compassion in lore, with the exception of villains that are always teetering on the edge (ex. Darth Vader).



    That's Darth Vaedur to you punk!! opps.. sorry..



    *DUCKS INCOMING FLAME*
  • Deathstrike2Deathstrike2 Member UncommonPosts: 1,777
    Originally posted by Anofalye


    Random murder is not villainous, it is dumb.  A villain will protect the orphan and the widow, might team rape them, but eh, we have a rating of less then 18-, so you have to read between the lines.  But killing the orphan or the widow makes no sense.  A Villain is extremely selfish, not some random mass murderer.  A Villains want the control for himself, hurting and even killing innocent isn't problematic, but the villain won't kill innocents for the pleasure of killing them...he might hurt them a little for his self pleasure however.
    This sounds very nice, but tell it to Carnage, Sin Eater, Dark Phoenix, or Joker.  There's a lot more to being a supervillain than beating up cops, robbing banks, and acting as an errand boy for your contacts. 
  • BigDaddyTeeBigDaddyTee Member Posts: 10
    I also agree with the OP.  I mean, villains aren't just people who commit bank robberies.  Hell those really aren't villains, they're just petty criminals.  A villain is someone that a Hero feels compelled to stop.  Luthor was a villain.  His plots didn't go after money or cops or the like.  His end all goal was power and the destruction of his foil, Superman.  I mean really, other than just being a good guy, what makes a hero want to stop a bank robbery?  Because it's wrong, right?



    What makes a hero want to stop a villain?  Because if he doesn't, people are going to die.  Now by the same token a personal enemy would be difficult to do.  Mostly because of the mission-based structure of CoX. 



    But staying on-topic, City of Villains does seem a lot less like villainry than it feels like petty criminalism...



    But City of Petty Criminals probably wouldn't have sold as well...

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  • ChessackChessack Member Posts: 978
    I agree with the OP. In fact a few of the better posters from the COH forums have their own private forum run by one of them, and I was on that for a long time, and our #1 complaint was that our villains felt like heroes rather than villains. Too many of the missions involve doing things like rescuing kidnap villains... You are more "Arachnos enforcers" than you are a real villain. A few missions aren't like this but too many are having you more or less be well within the law of the villain island area. Perhaps the problem is that they put us on an island were being bad was perfectly legal, as it were -- which makes you not feel like a villain so much.



    Bank robberies, Mayhem missions, and a few of the others were great. But those were not as frequent as saving kidnap victims, disarming bombs, etc. Sure the person doing the kidnapping might be the supposed good guys, like Longbow agents, but even those good guys were sort of "made up" for COV, and weren't really around much in COH -- so it's not like we were even fighting the guys we had been seeing all along on the hero side.



    It would not have taken too much to change this. For example, what if I rescue a kidnap victim for my contact, but instead of letting her go, I kidnap her myself and hold her for ransom. Now *I* have to hold the base I just invaded, against other agents or something, coming from that betrayed contact to get her back and take me out. Also, it might close off that contact's thread, but open a new one (his enemy's). Options like this would have let us feel really villainous. Instead, we end up helping out one villain very altruistically...



    In fact I think that is the problem. Too often my villain had to pretty much be an altruist, and to me that is what heroes do, not villains.



    C
  • AdminPiggieAdminPiggie Member Posts: 2
    Originally posted by Deathstrike2

    Originally posted by Anofalye


    Random murder is not villainous, it is dumb.  A villain will protect the orphan and the widow, might team rape them, but eh, we have a rating of less then 18-, so you have to read between the lines.  But killing the orphan or the widow makes no sense.  A Villain is extremely selfish, not some random mass murderer.  A Villains want the control for himself, hurting and even killing innocent isn't problematic, but the villain won't kill innocents for the pleasure of killing them...he might hurt them a little for his self pleasure however.
    This sounds very nice, but tell it to Carnage, Sin Eater, Dark Phoenix, or Joker.  There's a lot more to being a supervillain than beating up cops, robbing banks, and acting as an errand boy for your contacts.  Awww yeah, if I were to play this I would so want to be like Carnage or Venom. I haven't played this game but heard good things and bad things so I came here to the forums. From the sound of it, this seems more like the bad guy good guy super people that kids think about, not really marvel type. I mean if the rating of the game was directed towards a more mature audience, I would be with you guys saying this isn't right. This is only my opinion seeing as I haven't played, I'm not trying to put anyone elses thoughts down.

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  • RemianenRemianen Member UncommonPosts: 38
    Originally posted by Deathstrike2

    Originally posted by Anofalye


    Random murder is not villainous, it is dumb.  A villain will protect the orphan and the widow, might team rape them, but eh, we have a rating of less then 18-, so you have to read between the lines.  But killing the orphan or the widow makes no sense.  A Villain is extremely selfish, not some random mass murderer.  A Villains want the control for himself, hurting and even killing innocent isn't problematic, but the villain won't kill innocents for the pleasure of killing them...he might hurt them a little for his self pleasure however.
    This sounds very nice, but tell it to Carnage, Sin Eater, Dark Phoenix, or Joker.  There's a lot more to being a supervillain than beating up cops, robbing banks, and acting as an errand boy for your contacts. 

    You forgot Magneto. Sigh, everyone always forgets Magneto.



    But seriously, who's the villain? The person robbing the 7-Eleven or the person about to release a massive EM Pulse across the planet? My villains will probably never see 50 (and it's not just because Patron pools blow chunks compared to ancillary pools) because there are relatively few story arcs or missions that require them to be villainous, in my eyes. Poisoning the water supply is villainous. "Kidnapping" a housewife is not. Also, maybe this is a cultural difference, but serial killers in the US are most definitely villains. DC Sniper? Ted Kacszinski (the Unabomber), Richard Ramirez (the Night Stalker), Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, David Berkowitz, Charles freakin' Manson. These people aren't villains?!? How 'bout Sheik Abdel Rahman? I'm sure Saddam wasn't much of a villain, after gassing thousands of people.



    I'm not saying you HAVE to be a murderer to be a villain. Like, I think Kenneth Lay would qualify as a villain and he didn't kill anyone, physically. Financially is a different story. Whenever these discussions crop up on other forums, I usually call the game "City of Anti-Heroes" since that's what it feels like. Instead of being government sanctioned, you're vigilantes and every now and then, you do something "bad" (poison the water supply, rob a bank or casino, sell hostages to a charnel house, vandalize some small part of the city, etc). It's just really bland to me.
  • AmarsirAmarsir Member UncommonPosts: 703

    I think the real problem with feeling villainous is that you have to play reactively, whereas villians are usually proactive. There's no real way to let players invent their own scheme, which is what villains do. The best you can do is help a high-level villain with their plan, or foil a rivals. That feels more like being a henchman or anti-hero.

    Still, there are some evil things you do. Like the contact who sends you out to murder his son.

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  • Sev-38Sev-38 Member Posts: 9
    Originally posted by Deathstrike2


    Even from the beginning, CoV just doesn't feel all that villainous.  The main groups that you fight for most of the game are other villain groups.  With very few exceptions, the missions just seem like a rehashed hero missions.  Why is CoV so goodie goodie?
     
    Its true that COV doesn't really giv us anything that COH dont hav already



    With COV, we get the GOOD Vs. EVIL feeling I think.

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  • AZAlex86AZAlex86 Member UncommonPosts: 158
    I like the Villains landscape a bit more personally, but other than that, no it does not offer anything different...



    Mastermind is fun...



    It does feel like you're just running around as a corrupt villain (aka Hero)

    You fight ALL of the same people as in CoH, fight CORRUPT cops, and occasionally destroy a bank vault. That's about it for being a villain. I'm afraid they'd have to add the ability to beat up innocent pedestrians to make it a bit better, but I doubt they'd ever do that.
  • AceRoccolaAceRoccola Member UncommonPosts: 14
    Originally posted by Amarsir


    I think the real problem with feeling villainous is that you have to play reactively, whereas villians are usually proactive. There's no real way to let players invent their own scheme, which is what villains do. The best you can do is help a high-level villain with their plan, or foil a rivals. That feels more like being a henchman or anti-hero.
    Still, there are some evil things you do. Like the contact who sends you out to murder his son.
    Exactly. It would be great if we had the ability to be "true villains" but it isn't really feasible in the context of this mmorpg.



    For what it is, I think the game is done well. It would have been wonderful if it was something much more, but it doesn't stop me from playing and enjoying the game.

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  • AdythielAdythiel Member Posts: 726
    Here is my question to you. What level have you gotten up to? When you start out, you are nothing more than a lowly criminal. You have to work your way up in reputation before you are considered an arch villain. I won't post any spoilers, but the Westin Phipps Story arc and missions lines are very villainous. I do wish there were more along those lines. Really though, until you get to the post 30 game, you aren't much more than just a stronger version of a criminal. After you get to level 30, you see a whole bunch of heroes sent to stop you.

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  • AtmaDarkwolfAtmaDarkwolf Member UncommonPosts: 353

    On the topic of what a villian is and what a villain is not, is not that simple to explain.

     

    One man's villain is another man's hero.

     

    Saddam hussain may be seen in our western world as a villainous, evil POS, buf there's people who see him as a hero. (even a maytar)

     

    Now back to comic book villains: Luthor maybe against superman, but he became president, and was teh BEST presidant the wold has ever seen. He did so much 'good' for the world, that everyone can oversee his plans to kill superman/

     

    Magneto did deverything  he thought was right, and in many eyes, he was a saviior, he saved mutants by the thousands, and striked back against humans who sought to use, abuse, kill, etc mutants. He was, therefore, a hero in many mutants eyes.

     

    Venon: This guys identical to spiderman, except he wants to kill him. Read a bit, you will see he went out of his way to save and protect those who had no one to go to. He is labled a 'villain' because he wants to kill spiderman.. bit whup.

     

    Doctor Doom. This guy has his own country, and they see him as the protector, guardian, etc of thier country. His people, while they live in a facist enviorment, are all well fed, schooled, no one is hungry, and laws are fair for all. He's a villan though, because the FF say so.

     

    Even thantos, the right hand of death itself, has a background which would make him a hero in many eyes.

     

     

    Look at any story, and you'll see more than just the 1 side.

     

    Hero's on the other hand can be as evil as you can imagine: Wolvierne, who is a do-gooder, murderd, raped, tortured, etc his share of INNOCENT people. He is NOT a hero if you look at his past. Hell he would kill his best friend just to sleep with that friends woman.

     

    Do some reaserch, you'll see that there is no stark 'White' and 'black' -- it's all grey and shades of grey.

  • KordeshKordesh Member Posts: 1,715

    I think we're looking a little too deeply into this villain thing. We're talking super villain. We're talking comic book like maniacal plots. Trying to make a real life comparison just doesn't make sense. You've got rival villains to pound, which fits. You've got superheros to pound, which is fine. You've got meddling outsiders to pound, this also works. The only thing that really could be improved upon with the whole villainy and such would be to let us smack around pedestrians/bystanders for fun.

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  • White-Eyes2White-Eyes2 Member Posts: 6

    Sephiroth was a villain people. End of story.

    Stephan Moffett

  • laleblaleb Member Posts: 215

    A villian does whats best for him in the long run. Why kill construction workers when he can kidnap them and make them work for him? Endentured servatude anyone? Why kill the "innocents in the bank" When they can tell everyone of the horror you truely are and make it easier to commit other crimes because ppl will talk about you.

  • DownMonkeyDownMonkey Member CommonPosts: 159
    Originally posted by Anofalye

    I feel villainous while playing.
     
    Of course, there are some story arc where you are actually more a dark hero, but these are minority and...they can be explained.
     
    Random murder is not villainous, it is dumb.  A villain will protect the orphan and the widow, might team rape them, but eh, we have a rating of less then 18-, so you have to read between the lines.  But killing the orphan or the widow makes no sense.  A Villain is extremely selfish, not some random mass murderer.  A Villains want the control for himself, hurting and even killing innocent isn't problematic, but the villain won't kill innocents for the pleasure of killing them...he might hurt them a little for his self pleasure however.
     
    There is no point in ruling a desert.  You needs you peons alive and protected...the price of protection is...
     
    A mass murderer should be alone, in some desert.  A villain would hunt down someone who is killing his peons, not to protect his peons, to protect his social domination.  This also explain why a villain often torture the hero up to the point the hero manages to escape...killing the hero is for the weaker villains, the stronger one they want pleasure from dominating overpowered fools.


    Hmm I don't think you read very many comics, Carnage, the Joker, Sabertooth. The list goes on.

    image

  • mrversemrverse Member Posts: 119

    cov aint villains.. there more like  alternate heroes living in factory/sewer/warehouse infested levels

     

     

    villains can kill civilians.. civilians shouldnt be immortal.. but then again play nc doesnt have the balls to make civilians killable...

     

    tis why they made them hittable..  but immortal.. hence why their more annoying then ever since you keep targeting them instead of the enemies shooting at you

  • darkedone02darkedone02 Member UncommonPosts: 581

    I for one become more of a villian then a hero, I got the same "dominate the whole world" and created a Dark Demonknight type person (Broadsword + Dark Aura Magic + Fly), I make my character look like a Dark Knight (I wish I can make the one off of Mighty Pthylon show), and do the regular stuff. Rob Banks, Kill the clans that hates us (Snakes, Thorns, and so forth). We steal there goods, rob banks, Assassinate, and other stuff. the game however need to be a little more villianous. I like to control nuclear weapons, own a empire, do drivebys on civilians, and so forth. We need more content in this game... more "Darkness" and "Light".

    image

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