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Dear Korean Developers: No More Point and Click
ColdSun
Member Posts: 210
This is not a bash on any particular game, but I have been trying many of the free-to-play import MMOs (like Flyff and others) and what is this obsession with point and click for character movement? I would likely play these games a lot more but for that awkward control system they put in there.
IMHO, you won't be successful here in the states unless you adopt the standard movement system you find in many of the pay-to-play games like WoW, Dark Age of Camelot, City of Heroes, and others. Not that many of you care about being successful here, but my guess is that this rule would count internationally as well.
How many of my fellow gamers know of any import MMOs that aren't point and click? Is there something I haven't tried?
ColdSun
Comments
You can't expect pay quality for free games..
I dunno, I have been playing LAST CHAOS and so far it's kept me entertained.
I don't hate point in click but I don't love it either. My biggest thing is that it is generally easier to program wasd movement. With wasd movement you don't have to worry much about pathing. Personally I would go with the easiest to program. Games like Flyff do it right though it is a free game that has both point and click and wasd movement. Like I said though I don't mind point and click the general gameplay is more important then the movement system.
Anime art Community
Final Fantasy 7
I would agree with you but anyone who has played these games know they are not really free. Most of them are item shops and you can't really compete unless you buy items. Seriously though, how is offering a control system your customers prefer a "pay quality" feature? The quality of some of these free games can be seen easily by logging in and playing.
Flyff? Excellent interface. Decent graphics if you like that cartoonish stuff.
Rappelz - great animations and character models.
Tantra Online - Awesome character design and models, much thinking involved in creation of UI
Some of these games are very well done for being free-to-play. I'm just saying they need to take the next step if they are serious about attracting customers for their item stores.
Edit: Thank you, Cybeldia12, I did not know that Flyff offered both movement types. That warrants further examination for sure. I also agree with you that gameplay is most important and some of these free MMOs are getting very close to pay-quality gameplay now. This is my only reason for briging it up. I would like to see more of them offer WASD movement.
ColdSun
Yea, Last Chaos is a pretty good point and click game it is like a free version of Lineage 2. I am currently part of the AO Street team there. I really like most of the players.
Anime art Community
Final Fantasy 7
Maybe they make point and click movement 'cuz asian gamers prefer it that way?
And that's fine but if they are trying to market it in America and other regions, they might want to support something other than point-and-click.
I haven't tried Last Chaos yet. Is it anything like Tantra Online or Rappelz?
ColdSun
Korean MMO developers are gonna have to target us. Korea is to obsessed with Starcraft right now. I swear it is like their national religion.
Oh, and by the way OP city of heroes is Korean.
Anime art Community
Final Fantasy 7
I agree, I think it’s completely ridiculous.
In Dungeon Runners you can do both.
Also, do something about your botters and get rid of the artist who draws your characters. Do you all use the same guy? They all look the same.
lol
Anime art Community
Final Fantasy 7
With string after string of I'm bored, there is nothing new about this game, and same old same old I am surprised that you would put a string up requesting an entire NATION to conform to the U.S. standard just because you personally don't like it.
Then again, I have heard people complaining about AOC's proposed UI as well as SWG's revamped one.
So tell me? What is it that you REALLY want? Do you want something good or do you just want something that doesn't require you to think to win?
Sword of the New World would be a nightmare to play in the advanced style (using your three players seperately) using WASD. Point and click games generally feature faster action, more awareness of what is going on, and better pathing all the way around, the exact things that people complain about in WASD games. Then again, those exact things are what make WASD a more immersive and skillful way of playing. It's all a matter of choice. I think that both styles have their place and that anyone who doesn't like one or the other shouldn't play that game with the features they don't like instead of expecting everyone else to conform to their own personal idea of what's cool and what isn't.
Korean MMOs are made with point-and-click movement because korean players prefer it that way. Most of them play MMOs in internet cafes and they want to be able to smoke while they're playing the game.
Cigarette in one hand, point-and-click movement in the other.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
To Jesad:
Oh come on. Let's not make this into a NATIONAL or INTERNATIONAL debate. Look past your hate for us Americans and see that I am just another customer asking for a FEATURE in the game that I enjoy to use. Sword of the New World did not appeal to me because I don't want to control a whole party. If that's your cup of tea and the game is better without WASD that's wonderful.
I have nothing but respect for some of the talent I have seen displayed by the developers of free MMOs. I'll tell you what though, if you want to fight over politics I think you chose the wrong web site.
Oh and one last thing, your insults are unwarranted. I like my games hard or I wouldn't even attempt to level up in a free MMO grindfest. Get over yourself. Your thinly vieled insult implying that I am too stupid to "think" to use the control method you prefer is funny at best. In reality, a WASD movement system takes far more "thinking" than pointing to a spot on the ground in a game and watching your character make his way to that spot like some robot on a waypoint system.
ColdSun
hmm.. lets see.
Control & camera movement with only one hand, having an entire hand free for keyboard shortcuts such as skills & chatting
Or
Having 2 hands required just to move around and control the camera, making it far more difficult to reach all the keys on the keyboard.
yeah, I think I'll go with Point & click movement.
Now keyboard/WASD movement are important in MMO's that use some sort of twitch combat,but the fact of the matter is that most MMO's don't have twitch based combat, and Imo, It makes WASD a bit pointless. Its not a shooter.
That's the process of localization. Korean gaming culture and North American gaming culture are so wildly different that it's not much of a surprise games don't perform well if they're not localized. The FPS is dominant in NorthAm, so games have to support the WASD structure. It's been burned into the culture. The RTS was dominant in Korea, so games there generally favor point and click. Similarly, games are much more PvP oriented in Korea, whereas games are much more solo oriented in the 'states.
Devs have no choice but to localize or risk alienating a potential user base.
-- xpaladin
[MMOz]
AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
I have no problem activating other keys using WASD. They are all right there next to my finger. Takes a little more thinking I guess, which totally verifies my point. It is also a more natural and fluid method of controlling a character. Then again, this is just my opinion, which differs from yours - but makes neither of them fact. The only fact is that there is no logical reason NOT to offer both control systems in games so people can play the way they find more comfortable.
ColdSun
First off, I didn't make it a NATIONAL thing, you did. QUOTE "Dear KOREAN developers" UNQUOTE.
The statement implies that you are talking about Koreans from KOREA. As you did not say "Dear Korean American Developers" or simply "Dear Developers" you meant to speicfy that you were speaking of Korean developers from Korea which is a nation.
Secondly, Where in the world did the idea come from that a customer gets to REQUEST anything about a product? Suggest? Sure. But REQUEST? Who do you think you are to make requests of people who already have the weight of creating games that will be entertaining to thousands of people from different backgrounds and with differing levels of skill?
Where I come from a guy makes a product, people check it out, and if it sucks they don't play it. This is where terms like "back to the drawing board" and names like "7up" come from. Trial and error based on the developers ability to create something that the consumer will like and appreciate. Taking the advice of one consumer over another concerning major aspects of a product such as interface is probably the worst thing in the world any developer could do to kill their products long term shelf-life. I submit then that you sir are one of the people who would, if he could have it his way, have us all using handlebars to control automobiles because you personally learned to use handlebars first and don't see the need or understand the reasoning behind the infinately safer steering wheel. The same person who after handlebars are implemented and have caused you physical damage will run right out and buy a car with a steering wheel leaving the company that listened to and acted on your "request" out in the cold to die for being stupid enough to listen to you in the first place.
Third, I am not arguing politics I am arguing gaming. Take a minute, look in any string you want about any new release you want, and you will find strings and strings of posts concerning the death of MMO's because of the percieved "same old same old". So then I say that if Korean developers can offer something different, even if it is not your specific cup of tea, let them do their work and leave them alone. At least they are bring something to the table other than more complaints and less solutions.
Finally, my insults are obviously warranted because they, as thinly vieled as they are, they were obviously enough to allow you to expose yourself as yet another one of those people who use terms like "grindfest" and "free MMO" to attempt to differentiate those games from the far more superior "PAY TO GRIND" titles you support in your agenda. You then sir, are the same kind of person who promotes the costly thoroughbred pet over the stray mutt as being the better friend to man. You promote the costly SUV over the fuel efficient compact car as a better means of transportation for the single driver. You think that thing made up of the same ingredients in pretty much the same configuration can differentiate themselves from other things of the same like simply because you had to PAY MORE to aquire one over the other. Now tell me that you don't have an agenda. Just try and tell anyone here that lie.
In closing I will address your final statement. The one about WASD taking more thought. I contend that in a community where the percieved best and brightest players aren't even at the keys (via botting and such) a game with a point and click UI is no different than a game with WASD UI other than maybe it is harder (or easier, I have no idea really) for a non-Korean programmer to program a bot to play it for you.
What is a quest journal if not a waypoint system? What is the difference between downloading your funny maps and running from point of interest to point of interest and having the program do it for you? Oh wait, I get it now, it's because you actually have to LOOK AT THE SCREEN? Get real! You say you like your games hard but I submit that a truly HARD game would send you off crying like a little girl. The fact that you even thought it was important enough to come here and post the original post that you did indicates that you can't handle rules that differ from what you think think they should be.
I'm not the one you want to try and talk smack to, maybe you should go out and check EBAY and see if they are selling someone that can help you LOL.
Gamers play games because they are fun. If the game is fun we will pick up a joystick, controller, steering wheel, WASD, point and click, or whatever the game requires, learn it, and play the game. Conformity, Ease of play, a true gamer does not seek these things.
I thought I was responding to someone who really just didn't know what they were asking for. After your completely misleading response however that has accused me of everything from hating my own countrymen to trying to turn it into an international debate I am more prone to think that you have an agenda and that I in some way got in between you and what you are trying to promote, for that I apologize, kinda.
That's the process of localization. Korean gaming culture and North American gaming culture are so wildly different that it's not much of a surprise games don't perform well if they're not localized. The FPS is dominant in NorthAm, so games have to support the WASD structure. It's been burned into the culture. The RTS was dominant in Korea, so games there generally favor point and click. Similarly, games are much more PvP oriented in Korea, whereas games are much more solo oriented in the 'states.
Devs have no choice but to localize or risk alienating a potential user base.
Excellent point. I can't even get my kids to try any of these MMOs (they are teens) because they are point and click. They just won't consider it.
ColdSun
Dekaron a korean game is being put into english, game is called 2moons, it has WASD and point n click.f2p
What so hard about WASD, 97% of korean games have no WASD
Every PC game that has ever come out of China/Japan/Korea/Taiwan/w/e, has always been a piece of shit. They all have the same shitty character style and the even worse "grind grind grind grind" gameplay. They should really consider stop making games for PC, and just stay with Nintendo and Playstation.
Don't bother mentioning Final Fantasy, because that's the most overhyped piece of crap I've ever encountered.
O'rly.
First off, I didn't make it a NATIONAL thing, you did. QUOTE "Dear KOREAN developers" UNQUOTE.
The statement implies that you are talking about Koreans from KOREA. As you did not say "Dear Korean American Developers" or simply "Dear Developers" you meant to speicfy that you were speaking of Korean developers from Korea which is a nation.
Secondly, Where in the world did the idea come from that a customer gets to REQUEST anything about a product? Suggest? Sure. But REQUEST? Who do you think you are to make requests of people who already have the weight of creating games that will be entertaining to thousands of people from different backgrounds and with differing levels of skill?
Where I come from a guy makes a product, people check it out, and if it sucks they don't play it. This is where terms like "back to the drawing board" and names like "7up" come from. Trial and error based on the developers ability to create something that the consumer will like and appreciate. Taking the advice of one consumer over another concerning major aspects of a product such as interface is probably the worst thing in the world any developer could do to kill their products long term shelf-life. I submit then that you sir are one of the people who would, if he could have it his way, have us all using handlebars to control automobiles because you personally learned to use handlebars first and don't see the need or understand the reasoning behind the infinately safer steering wheel. The same person who after handlebars are implemented and have caused you physical damage will run right out and buy a car with a steering wheel leaving the company that listened to and acted on your "request" out in the cold to die for being stupid enough to listen to you in the first place.
Third, I am not arguing politics I am arguing gaming. Take a minute, look in any string you want about any new release you want, and you will find strings and strings of posts concerning the death of MMO's because of the percieved "same old same old". So then I say that if Korean developers can offer something different, even if it is not your specific cup of tea, let them do their work and leave them alone. At least they are bring something to the table other than more complaints and less solutions.
Finally, my insults are obviously warranted because they, as thinly vieled as they are, they were obviously enough to allow you to expose yourself as yet another one of those people who use terms like "grindfest" and "free MMO" to attempt to differentiate those games from the far more superior "PAY TO GRIND" titles you support in your agenda. You then sir, are the same kind of person who promotes the costly thoroughbred pet over the stray mutt as being the better friend to man. You promote the costly SUV over the fuel efficient compact car as a better means of transportation for the single driver. You think that thing made up of the same ingredients in pretty much the same configuration can differentiate themselves from other things of the same like simply because you had to PAY MORE to aquire one over the other. Now tell me that you don't have an agenda. Just try and tell anyone here that lie.
In closing I will address your final statement. The one about WASD taking more thought. I contend that in a community where the percieved best and brightest players aren't even at the keys (via botting and such) a game with a point and click UI is no different than a game with WASD UI other than maybe it is harder (or easier, I have no idea really) for a non-Korean programmer to program a bot to play it for you.
What is a quest journal if not a waypoint system? What is the difference between downloading your funny maps and running from point of interest to point of interest and having the program do it for you? Oh wait, I get it now, it's because you actually have to LOOK AT THE SCREEN? Get real! You say you like your games hard but I submit that a truly HARD game would send you off crying like a little girl. The fact that you even thought it was important enough to come here and post the original post that you did indicates that you can't handle rules that differ from what you think think they should be.
I'm not the one you want to try and talk smack to, maybe you should go out and check EBAY and see if they are selling someone that can help you LOL.
Gamers play games because they are fun. If the game is fun we will pick up a joystick, controller, steering wheel, WASD, point and click, or whatever the game requires, learn it, and play the game. Conformity, Ease of play, a true gamer does not seek these things.
I thought I was responding to someone who really just didn't know what they were asking for. After your completely misleading response however that has accused me of everything from hating my own countrymen to trying to turn it into an international debate I am more prone to think that you have an agenda and that I in some way got in between you and what you are trying to promote, for that I apologize, kinda.
Oh I get it, you are one of those people who like to debate for the sake of debate. I see many ignorant assumptions on your part and still no facts to back it up.
Where to begin. Let's start with your singling out my string subject line. "Korean" was simply aimed at the known developers of most of these free to play games. It is YOU who has taken this as an insult to them for whatever reason and placed words and actions on me that are untrue. If you bothered to read, I made it clear that I thought they were very talented programmers. I don't care what country you are from - you are a bigot for implying things about me from what kind of car I drive to what kind of game I might enjoy. You first post basically called me stupid because I like a different control method than you and am asking these developers to think about adding it.
The silly introspection you bothered to type out in the huge paragraph simply makes me laugh. So by two posts on a message board you have pegged me personally as a wasteful, stupid, SUV driving, eBay shopping, and gas-wasting human being. Dude, you crack me up. You know nothing about me, what kind of car I drive or even the whole point of this post except you look like an absolute bigot for typing in all that meaningless crap and insulting me. Oh I forgot to mention I am not a true gamer... I have a secret agenda to bash the free to play games... *cues twilight zone music*
The only agenda I had for this post was nicely requesting a feature be added to these free games that I ENJOY. Because they offer something the evil other games you seem to hate for whatever reason (too easy for your suprior intellect yes?) don't have right now.
As far as talking smack to you, I can say whatever I want - its a free country and if you reside here you should know that. You have already expressed your ignorant and crazy assumptions about me. Keep going though - I find it amusing.
ColdSun
First off, I didn't make it a NATIONAL thing, you did. QUOTE "Dear KOREAN developers" UNQUOTE.
The statement implies that you are talking about Koreans from KOREA. As you did not say "Dear Korean American Developers" or simply "Dear Developers" you meant to speicfy that you were speaking of Korean developers from Korea which is a nation.
Secondly, Where in the world did the idea come from that a customer gets to REQUEST anything about a product? Suggest? Sure. But REQUEST? Who do you think you are to make requests of people who already have the weight of creating games that will be entertaining to thousands of people from different backgrounds and with differing levels of skill?
Where I come from a guy makes a product, people check it out, and if it sucks they don't play it. This is where terms like "back to the drawing board" and names like "7up" come from. Trial and error based on the developers ability to create something that the consumer will like and appreciate. Taking the advice of one consumer over another concerning major aspects of a product such as interface is probably the worst thing in the world any developer could do to kill their products long term shelf-life. I submit then that you sir are one of the people who would, if he could have it his way, have us all using handlebars to control automobiles because you personally learned to use handlebars first and don't see the need or understand the reasoning behind the infinately safer steering wheel. The same person who after handlebars are implemented and have caused you physical damage will run right out and buy a car with a steering wheel leaving the company that listened to and acted on your "request" out in the cold to die for being stupid enough to listen to you in the first place.
Third, I am not arguing politics I am arguing gaming. Take a minute, look in any string you want about any new release you want, and you will find strings and strings of posts concerning the death of MMO's because of the percieved "same old same old". So then I say that if Korean developers can offer something different, even if it is not your specific cup of tea, let them do their work and leave them alone. At least they are bring something to the table other than more complaints and less solutions.
Finally, my insults are obviously warranted because they, as thinly vieled as they are, they were obviously enough to allow you to expose yourself as yet another one of those people who use terms like "grindfest" and "free MMO" to attempt to differentiate those games from the far more superior "PAY TO GRIND" titles you support in your agenda. You then sir, are the same kind of person who promotes the costly thoroughbred pet over the stray mutt as being the better friend to man. You promote the costly SUV over the fuel efficient compact car as a better means of transportation for the single driver. You think that thing made up of the same ingredients in pretty much the same configuration can differentiate themselves from other things of the same like simply because you had to PAY MORE to aquire one over the other. Now tell me that you don't have an agenda. Just try and tell anyone here that lie.
In closing I will address your final statement. The one about WASD taking more thought. I contend that in a community where the percieved best and brightest players aren't even at the keys (via botting and such) a game with a point and click UI is no different than a game with WASD UI other than maybe it is harder (or easier, I have no idea really) for a non-Korean programmer to program a bot to play it for you.
What is a quest journal if not a waypoint system? What is the difference between downloading your funny maps and running from point of interest to point of interest and having the program do it for you? Oh wait, I get it now, it's because you actually have to LOOK AT THE SCREEN? Get real! You say you like your games hard but I submit that a truly HARD game would send you off crying like a little girl. The fact that you even thought it was important enough to come here and post the original post that you did indicates that you can't handle rules that differ from what you think think they should be.
I'm not the one you want to try and talk smack to, maybe you should go out and check EBAY and see if they are selling someone that can help you LOL.
Gamers play games because they are fun. If the game is fun we will pick up a joystick, controller, steering wheel, WASD, point and click, or whatever the game requires, learn it, and play the game. Conformity, Ease of play, a true gamer does not seek these things.
I thought I was responding to someone who really just didn't know what they were asking for. After your completely misleading response however that has accused me of everything from hating my own countrymen to trying to turn it into an international debate I am more prone to think that you have an agenda and that I in some way got in between you and what you are trying to promote, for that I apologize, kinda.
Oh I get it, you are one of those people who like to debate for the sake of debate. I see many ignorant assumptions on your part and still no facts to back it up.
Where to begin. Let's start with your singling out my string subject line. "Korean" was simply aimed at the known developers of most of these free to play games. It is YOU who has taken this as an insult to them for whatever reason and placed words and actions on me that are untrue. If you bothered to read, I made it clear that I thought they were very talented programmers. I don't care what country you are from - you are a bigot for implying things about me from what kind of car I drive to what kind of game I might enjoy. You first post basically called me stupid because I like a different control method than you and am asking these developers to think about adding it.
The silly introspection you bothered to type out in the huge paragraph simply makes me laugh. So by two posts on a message board you have pegged me personally as a wasteful, stupid, SUV driving, eBay shopping, and gas-wasting. Dude, you crack me up. You know nothing about me, what kind of car I drive or even the whole point of this post except you look like an absolute bigot for typing in all that meaningless crap and insulting me. Oh I forgot to mention I am not a true gamer. I have a secret agenda to bash the free to play games. *cues twilight zone music*
The only agenda I had for this post was nicely requesting a feature be added to these free games that I ENJOY. Because they offer something the evil other games you seem to hate for whatever reason (too easy for your suprior intellect yes?).
As far as talking smack to you, I can say whatever I want - its a free country and if you reside here you should know that. You have already expressed your ignorant and crazy assumptions about me. Keep going though - I find it amusing.
I said all that I said in that post so that I would not have to come back here over and over again to play your dismissal game. Dismiss what I said all you want. It's there for anyone who reads this string to see, I am not ashamed of anything I said and whoever reads it can decide on their own what to think about you AND me.
Peace, I'm off to better topics.
Good - because you ruined any decent conversation in this one by your blathering and insulting. So sorry I responded to call you on your personal attacks. Well, no I'm not. *goes back to listening to the twilight zone music* THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE ITS ALL A CONSPIRACY. LOL.
ColdSun
Maybe... it's... because... they like it better! Why is it so hard to expect that everyone doesn't like what you like!?! Damn you America with your ways of belief that everyone has to be the same as you.
I know I am going to get flamed for this but it's true. Asians prefer games with point and click. Americans prefer WASD. Why must you harass them and insist that they make both point and click and WASD? Why should they? Should games that we as North Americans make games that are going to be played in the eastern hemisphere point and click with Asian graphics! No! So why should they? Everyone has their own styles.
Everyone here doesn't see any need to COMPLETELY revamp WoW for Asia do they when Blizzard sets it up out there do they? The people who play WoW like the graphics the way they are. Why should we make the graphics into Asian graphicish so they can like it? Asians like their graphics. We like out graphics. If we aren't going to change our games for them why should they change their games for us?
Majority is clearly the eastern hemisphere. They are a waaaay bigger market. It doesn't even make sense for them to make games we like because they are choosing the smaller market. Why if they have a 100 million person market make a game for a 10 million person market? it doesn't even make sense financially.
Grind? Another big one. And, believe it or not... They... Like... it! They look at our games and think they are rediculous! Now I don't agree with this that grind is good but they like it better! So why shouldn't they make their games with grind? They just don't like our game systems.
Why is it so hard to accept O America that not everyone is like you? The American mindset is so messed up that way that everyone has to be like them. It causes them to go to wars and "help out the needy". They son't want your help! But I digress... That has nothing to do with the subject.
Proud to be Canadian.