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Unique Items in MMORPG's, they future...
sacase
Member UncommonPosts: 22
I posted part of the statement below in another response, but it made me think what is the future of MMORPGs and Unique Items. To me a Unique Item should not be something everyone has a chance to get. It should be the lucky few that get them. I am not a fan of instanced dungeons that seem to be the flavor of the month with the new MMORPGs coming out.
I perosnally am not too impressed with the next generation of "carebear" games coming out. WoW with its enforced rest period so Powergamers don't get too far ahead of the casual players. EQ2 with its instanced dungeon so no one has to camp for anything. I personally view camping as a good thing. The reason I say this is because it truly makes unique items unique. This lack of having something truly unique makes games unappealing to me. SWG nothing unique( I haven't played since 2 months after release so that may have changed), Linage II nothing unique. Now with EQ2 with instanced dungeons (which many MMORPGs) seem to be going to nothing will be unique. Anyone can spawn the boss when they get to him and don't have to worry about anyone else being there. Nothign will be unique anymore. Just get the people together and go spawn bosses till your heart is content. here is a good example. In AO there are some mobs that are on a 18 hour spawn cycle. AO has been out for 3 years. So when you work the math, items from those 18 hour spawns only had the OPPERTUNITY to drop 1460 times. So there are less than 1460 of these items in the game. Now you take away some of those for times an items didn't drop, take away some for people who quit the game and I would be willing to bet that there is less than 1000 of those items ingame. AO's player base is well of 10k people and over 200000 toons on RK 1. So with that said around .005 of all toons in AO have said items. Now that to me is unique.
What does everyone else feel about unique Items?
Comments
I can only surmise you were never a player of EverQuest, since you don't seem to mention it and that game is the King of camp. It puts AO's unique items to shame.
But that issue aside, I think you're in the minority here. Those of us who grew up with EverQuest and lived with the JBoots quest know what "unique" items mean. Some people do love this kind of gaming, because the total dedication they put into getting that item really does show by that person having a very special item that few have. By the same token, many people endured being KSed for said items, and the conflicts that arise daily over camp competition, training, and other tactics to gain advantage often brought out the worst in people. People complained vehemently about this, over and over and over. Spend some time reading archived posts about EverQuest and you'll see it is one of the most talked about issues in that game.
The latest generation of MMOGs seems to have taken that conversation to heart, though maybe many of them have overreacted. Personally, I love the way AO is balanced right now between Missions and Shadowlands static content. It's purely a matter of picking your poison.
Your right I never really played EQ too much so I can't talk intelligently about it. I started EQ 3 months before AO came out and then I did a complete switch. I think I had a level 19 DE Necromancer or something like that, it was so long ago.
I do agree with you, that there needs to be a way to prevent KSing, training and other methods of griefing people who are camping stuff. I just dont' think instanced dungeons are the solution.
I would have to agree with you there. Unique items give you the sense you are working for something. Then, after you find it, the fun of showing it off in the nearest town is great.
One thing I have to disagree with you on is how Lineage II has no unique items. Some items are drop only, not to mention you can find weapons and armor from monsters (0.0034528% chance for a monster in Cruma Tower to drop Crystalized Ice Bow). So I would say Lineage II has some unique items... though the game is still terrible.
Waiting for Guild Wars XD
Instanced dungeons aren't the problem when you're lookin at unique items. There is no reason whatsoever that the developer couldn't make some items be 1 in 200,000 in an instanced dungeon. They simply choose not to do this.
I propose a different solution to the "Oooh, lets camp for 36 hours for this monster to appear." approach.
When a new account (Read: Account, not character.) is created. A unique item is given to the primary player of that account. This item would be generated randomly with such fields:
Level requirement: The first attribute generated, depending on the value, a different table would be used for the other attributes. This would make the item power based on the level Requirement.
Type: Is it a weapon? Armor? Cape? Accessory? Or maybe something all together different, like a special pet. Maybe a universal cupon that automatically gets the player 5% off at all merchants.
Attributes: The attributes of the weapon would be generated and would generally be above average for regular magical items of that type yet chances of getting one exponentially above average would be harder to get.
Special ability: The special ability would be generated based on the level requirement. Could be almost anything.
This way everyone gets atleast one unique item upon starting the game and they can decide what to do with it? Save it until they can use it, maybe sell it and make starting off that much easier. The market wouldn't become saturated because there are so many attributes to randomly generate and so many item types, as well as so many levels in the game that there could be entire sets of items per level.
BS, this isn't little league where everyone should get the same chance at the same stuff. This is a game, where more effort should have more reward. If you're willing to try and kill a minotaur 10,000 times just to get one item you should get the rewards of such. The exact thinking of the above poster is what's ruining individuality in games now. You do not deserve to have everything that I do, and you will never have the same chance to get the same stuff. Just as someone that tries harder than me should have what they earned from it. EQ was a great example of this and their economy, while a bit bloated, is great because of it. There are very few of some items in the game because they are TRULY rare. In nearly every other MMOG everything either comes from crafting or everyone can easily get everything, what's the point then? There really isn't one.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
the problem with this situation is this. Games that have unique items and people complain don't probably do and we just haven't found them or they are so high level to use them and gain them is NUTZ. For instance to your AO example. That is true. AO did a nice job with boss mosters on an 18 hour spawn. Now, if you take that example into the FFXI realm you will notice it too.. BUT this time it's not by the same kind o player. FFXI players are rude and selfish and have no respect to others. The world is very small in compariison and because of this one player will sit there waiting for it to spawn just sto sell it for an insane amount of money.
What they need to do to solve this problem is this. "UNIQUE ITEMS CANNOT BE SOLD OR TRADED!" Which i believe is how they did it in EQ and AO. Now FFXI is one where you can sell and trade them.. To elliminate this problem if they implimented one unique per account not sellable nor tradeable.. then people would be more apt to giving respect over groups trying to gain items and people wouldn't complain about price.
Other games need to pick this up.
AO is in my opinion the best well rounded MMORPG to date! They have had their share of problems but the current game is better than any other on the market right now (OPINION NO FLAMES)
unique items should be just that. Unique. RARE items should be from boss monsters that spawn very frequently which is what they do in AO. also have some mobs that drop UNIQUE items to just their mob that aren't that SUPER GREAT but might have great effects to the mob you got it from if used against them.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
Sorry Cirin, I didn't understand your counter-argument becuase you were too busy not making one.
Let me address areas where you could have turned this into an intellegent debate and in the process persuaded people to your point of view:
" BS, this isn't little league where everyone should get the same chance at the same stuff"
Okay..... I'm not sure how my idea relates to little league. Please ellaborate on this.
"This is a game, where more effort should have more reward. If you're willing to try and kill a minotaur 10,000 times just to get one item you should get the rewards of such."
First, be more spacific: "This is a game..." What is a game? Are you talking about MMORPG's? CounterStrike? Mom and pa's bread factory? What?
Second: I don't understand the parrallels between killing a minotaur and my idea.
Oh curse my inability to understand nonsense!
"The exact thinking of the above poster is what's ruining individuality in games now."
How?
"You do not deserve to have everything that I do, and you will never have the same chance to get the same stuff."
Why?
"Just as someone that tries harder than me should have what they earned from it."
Try is a relitive word. Everyone usually tries their best and some people's best is better then other peoples. Reguardless I have no idea what this has to do with killing Minotaurs, camping spawns, or unique items.
" EQ was a great example of this and their economy, while a bit bloated, is great because of it. There are very few of some items in the game because they are TRULY rare."
How does this make the EQ economy great?
"In nearly every other MMOG everything either comes from crafting or everyone can easily get everything, what's the point then? There really isn't one."
How can everyone get everything easily? How is crafting easier then killing minotaurs? How is there no point?
Now, when you fill in the miriad of loopholes in this counter-argument.... no, I take that back. In this paragraph, it will become a counter-argument that I can respond to accordingly.
First of all, "unique" means one of a kind. If two people have an item, it is not unique. However, the modern vernacular has watered the word down to be a synonym to rare or unusual. Given that, it sounds as if we are talking about rare items here. Now I'll remove my Azure Helm of Pedantic Didacticism and address the issue at hand
.
There is a trend in MMORPGs that the newer titles are leaning toward a greater equality, almost to a fault. Rare items are becoming exactly that: rare. Now it seems that powerful items are being made easier to get. I don't particularly like this.
Ianubisi mentioned Journeymans Boots. When I got my Jboots, I considered it a huge accomplishment. Jboots were Lore items (non-tradeable), so anyone who had them had earned them. They were very useful in getting around, but it was as much a status item as anything else. They were so desired that people would camp the Ancient Cyclops for days. Yes, it was tedious and killstealing was an unfortunate aspect of the quest, but most people who finally got them would tell you that it was worth the effort.
In today's games where just about everyone of a certain level can obtain a powerful item, the thrill is gone. DAoC is my current game, and there are no items like Jboots at all. Hell, the dragons drop 50 respec stones! I don't like that. There needs to be at least a few rare items. The closest thing I can think of is the artifact items, but they're not hard to get - not like Jboots or the Molten Cloak.
I am not a fan of instanced dungeons either. I think a zone should be for everyone. If each group gets their own dungeon, then each group gets their own set of mobs and their own high level mob and their own set of loot at the end. It is easy to imagine 5 groups killing 5 separate Nagafens simultaneously in an instanced world. If there are a limited number of mobs to fight, then the spoils are that much rarer and that much sweeter.
I like rare drops, but I don't see there being much opportunity to find them in current and/or future titles. Games are either instancing and giving everybody their turn or are trying to bolster the crafting side by making drops worthless compared to player made items. Publishers have forgotten the status symbol part of the game. Half the fun of hanging around the EC tunnel was looking at everybody's new cool armor or weapons. I think those days are gone.
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There are 10 types of people in this world...those who understand binary, and those who don't.
MMORPG.com Staff
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Old timer.
Maybe I'm just an arse, but I don't measure a gamer by status items so much as calliber of character. So I guess that's why I have a hard time seeing the glitter in status items.
I thing games are taking a more real world turn with the elimination of status items. To use a simple analogy: We both go into a grocery store, now if one of us camps the dairy isle for 3 days and the other just buys some milk. We both end up getting the same milk and getting on with our lives. I don't think games should be an exercise in boredom (Ala camping spawns for 48 hours strieght, also I don't see how this is hard, it just means drinking lots of jolt cola.)
Again though, I don't measure others or my gaming experiance/character by the amount of status items in ones inventory, so maybe that makes me some sort of MMORPG dissenter.
As for the companies view, they have no use for unique items or an individual players status. Why should they? Pandering to community icons dosn't make them more money. Pandering to everyone does. My 20 bucks a month is just the same as the guy who holds the unique status item. Therefore that's where my idea comes from. Instead of giving one guy a unique item and shutting out the rest of their subscriber base. Give everyone a unique item and they're still unique! Yes yes, I know "But Razage, that idea means that I can't camp my spawn for 5 days and garner a flock of sheep." I didn't say players would like it, especially those who lead uber guilds etc... however companies would eat it up and so would the afformentioned "Flock of sheep."
However again, maybe I'm just some sort of dissenter but I don't understand the appeal of status items. Personally if I had one, I'd sell it for a whole ton of cash, so maybe they do have a use! hehehehehe.
You're not an arse, you're likely just not high on the "achiever" scale in the Bartle quotient.
One of the other posters said it best, you're not an achiever. You're probably a socializer. I don't mean that in a negative way, just a completely different way of playing. Personally, I'm AKES. Ironically enough the S is <10%<insert your random insulting comment> (don't remember the exact numbers).
Now I'm sure your inane rambling and tearing apart of posts somehow makes you think that you either made a point or proved me wrong, unfortunately you really only showed your inability to grasp the simple concepts which I presented. Don't feel bad, it's very common for trolls to really have nothing intelligent to say and just try to tear things apart piece by piece without taking in the whole idea. Yes, yes, bad me for sinking to your level, anyways.
You make a statement about people trying their best and the word "try". Well, I guess for you trying doesn't equate to succeeding. I pity you, I really do. Please stop "trying" to impose your laughable excuse for morales and self-worth on the rest of the world. Judged by your caliber of character, give me a break, most people online are either losers that are hiding behind an ideal or asses that really just don't care much about another person.
""To use a simple analogy: We both go into a grocery store, now if one of us camps the dairy isle for 3 days and the other just buys some milk. We both end up getting the same milk and getting on with our lives. I don't think games should be an exercise in boredom (Ala camping spawns for 48 hours strieght, also I don't see how this is hard, it just means drinking lots of jolt cola.)""
Gee, yes lets try to compare a game to real life. Ok, here's a simple analogy:
We both go to school, but instead of you going all the way through you drop out and decide to pursue a career at Burger King, you do well, becoming the general manager in record time while I'm still going to school to be a lawyer. Years go by and you keep making your $30k/yr. while I spend more time *grinding* away at school. I finish and start out making $43k/yr and rising.
Yes, both doing the same thing, but one person sticks with it for much longer waiting for the greater prize.
I'm all done, flame away as you've nothing better to do with your pitiful existence.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
The difference is that there's plenty of milk to go around. In EQ, no one camps the cracked wooden staff (which drops off a gazillion low level mobs). It's supply and demand. Let's talk real world. You and I both want an autographed copy of Bill Clinton's new book. I go get in line at 6am at the bookstore where he's appearing at noon. You show up at 11:30 to find 300 people waiting. We won't get the same thing. Waiting in line for an autograph is not my idea of fun and I certainly wouldn't do it for most things, but if I really want the book, it's worth a few hours wait. The analogy holds for rare items.
(BTW, I chose Clinton's book because it's in the news now. IRL, I wouldn't give a squirt of piss for anything from that duplicitous, skirtchasing publicity hound.)
Not at all, but it does not mean that there isn't a large contingent of MMORPG players who DO place a premium on "status items."
If everyone gets a unique item, then no one gets a unique item. It becomes ho hum, everybody has one. Yours may be a shade different from mine, but it's still the same thing. Neither of us truly earned it, so it's no big thing.
Let's say we implement this egalitarian "everybody gets one" policy. If your rare is any better than mine, I'll be chapped, especially since I had no choice in the matter. The same holds true if you get yours at level 35 and I have to wait until 42. My 20 bucks is just as good as yours, so shouldn't I get an equal item? The only option is to give everyone effectively the same item, which then makes it nothing. It's a birthright. People will just hit the mark and collect their goods. There's so much more to say about this than space permits.
Nobody likes camping, but if the payoff is good, they may justify that the camping was worth the effort. I can guarantee you that any player who chooses to camp a spawn in hopes of getting a rare drop will be thrilled if it drops the first time. The idea that people would be upset if they didn't get to camp is wrongheaded.
Achievement is a large part of the appeal of MMORPGs for most people. If everybody was guaranteed rare equipment, then a huge amount of achievement is gone.
And a lot of people do that. It's called farming, but that's another topic.
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There are 10 types of people in this world...those who understand binary, and those who don't.
MMORPG.com Staff
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Old timer.
Okay, Cirnin, since "Tearing apart posts." just got more flames then necessary and pushed the debate back into the stone age. (Notice the use of quotes there since I was just isolating the points I wanted to respond to, not tearing anything apart, but that's a matter of perspective I guess.) As a sidenote here, you started flaming, not me.
Lets try a different approach....
I'm not out to prove a point or prove you wrong. I want to get you to ellaborate your point! Is that so hard? These are SIMPLE CONCEPTS as you said right? Well if they're so simple, elaborate on them instead of being an arse. Thank you.
Hah, impose a set of morals or self-worth? Nope, wrong again! I was just saying how I feel about the situation. Sorry if it offends you, nothing I can do about that I'm afraid.
Nice stero type there by the way. However the sad thing about stereo types is that they're a generalization and generalizations are never correct in any context refering to human groups/organizations. That's okay though, we live in a modern day fantasy land where anyone can say anything without needing facts or proof. Why for example my next door neighbor killed five donkey's and buried them in the flower beds outside of my building. I don't need to prove anything so I'll just call the police and have him hauled off. The moral of the story: Don't try to make up statistics without having proof to back them up.
Admittedly after some re-thinking the "Everyone gets a unique item." idea is stupid. Oh well, I come up with lots of stupid ideas, everyone does. However the idea was that everyone is able to get a unique item. I don't recall saying anything about it being fair, did I? Some will get better ones then others, more like a lottory. Many folks don't like lottories because they can't control them. Well we can't control how we're born either or every man would have washboard ab's and every women a size D cup. I think it would add some variety as opposed to the "Everyone is created equal." stuff. In the end if you really didn't like your draw, you could always cancel and create a new account.
As for the school anology, a very good point. It dosn't just have to be you and me though. That could be anybody. Anybody can throw in 50 grand to some school, stick with it, and become a lawyer and make the big bucks (Atleast within the confines of a simple anology and not going into complicated details of flooded markets and such.) Without the confines of RL complications, everyone in the game world can do anything. Achievement is usually based on how much time a person can put into the game and the RL complications will serve as a barrier for that and that's generally how it works in games today.
In a PK environment most of the folks have found away around this, they simply grab the "top dog" positions and ensure everyone else is kept at a lower level by controlling their advancement as best they can. EVE Online has a good example of this with the 0.0 space cartels.
In a non-PK environment the best that can be done is to force people to camp for 72 hours strieght. Even then it's not really a challange, it's just so boring most people will choose not to do it.
I suppose I value money more then any rare item or unique item. (Ingame money that is.) Prestiege is nice, but easily devalues. The gold atleast has a constant value. That's my feeling on that anyways.
So yeah, I don't think any of this post had anything to do with what we were talking about.
I'm all done though so feel free to flame away if you can't do anything else with your pitiful existance (See! Notice how I used a simular insult as my closing line! Pretty good huh? Thanks for playing along.)
I like the idea of truly unique items, quests, and mobs.
It adds alot more to the RP value of a game. Take EQ, for example. On all the server, Nagafen has been killed by everyone and their mother. It's not a big deal, and most likely no one will care that you killed it. Now the Sleeper? I imagine you remember who, and when that event happened on your server.
Unique content doesn't even have to be anything special, it could be a regular sword +1, just with a particle effect added, or a unique texture. Or a unique title. You get the idea.
As usual, people want everything handed to them on a silver platter without having to lift a finger to do it. And god forbid someone that put in the time, and effort get something that they didn't, so the devs kowtow to the MMO welfare crowd, and suddenly everyone looks the same, etc. etc. At this point I'd like to offer my service to all the dev teams out there. For a modest fee, I will tell these lazy parasites where they can stick their $15, and then I will beat the meaning of TANSTAAFL through their thick skulls. I might even do it for free, simply for the entertainment value.
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They panic, so... just hold them down
I could live like this
I'm closing in; hate all around
I could be like this
Hearing them; them in my head
How can they be so sweet... sweet?