"Send Nvidia an email asking why they haven't provided any support for VG like they have for several other games."
Why would they waste the effort for such a small game? Having a card supported for a big game like WoW, yes, that makes sense. But for small potatoes like VG? That's not worth their effort for a game with 30k subs and dropping.........
That's just silly. So if you spend the money on a console and you buy a game that doesn't work on that console you woudln't expect the company that made the console to fix it so you could play the game you baught? I'm sure you wouldn't.
Also, it's up to the GPU manufacturer to esure that the hardware they expect us to buy works properly for every PC game. Would you pay $200+ to MS for an operating system that doesn't work properly on every game? (well that was pretty redundant because people already are).
I find it funny that there are people that will critisize a game company for releasing an unfinished game, but seem to find it ok that gfx card companies and the largest OS developer in the world does the exact same thing with thier products.
But isn't that what you're saying?
"IF you spend money on a console (8800 card) and buy a game(Vanguard) that doesn't work on that Console(again 8800) you wouldn't expect the company that made the console to fix it so you could play the game you bought? I'm sure you wouldn't."
Your words on this one. Are you trying to say that the Vid card manufacturer is the game and Vanguard is the console? From a price point issue, that 8800 costs as much as a console and VG costs as much as, well, a game. While many people here believe the VG devs or SOE should work on compatability issues you are telling them that Nvidia should do it and then saying that it "is just silly". I'm sure Nvidia is working on their drivers but, as stated, compatability for VG is probably a low priority for them. Vanguard, on the other hand, should be making compatability with 8800s on their side a high priority if they want to keep those who own those cards as paying subs. I doubt we are going to see posts stating "My 8800 won't play VG right so i'm getting rid of it" any time soon.
As for M$ and Gpu manufacturers and people having problems and paying for them.... if they work with 90% of the hundreds of thousands of games/hardware/software that is out there in the world they did a pretty good job. VG only has to work with what? 7 or 8 windows versions (if you count em all which they don't support ) mac and linux. And basically 2 GPU manufacturers and 2 processor manufacturers which may have a few different hardware architecture tweaks.
Yeah, keep saying Nvidia dropped the ball, say it enough and someone will believe it.
"Send Nvidia an email asking why they haven't provided any support for VG like they have for several other games."
Why would they waste the effort for such a small game? Having a card supported for a big game like WoW, yes, that makes sense. But for small potatoes like VG? That's not worth their effort for a game with 30k subs and dropping.........
That's just silly. So if you spend the money on a console and you buy a game that doesn't work on that console you woudln't expect the company that made the console to fix it so you could play the game you baught? I'm sure you wouldn't.
Also, it's up to the GPU manufacturer to esure that the hardware they expect us to buy works properly for every PC game. Would you pay $200+ to MS for an operating system that doesn't work properly on every game? (well that was pretty redundant because people already are).
I find it funny that there are people that will critisize a game company for releasing an unfinished game, but seem to find it ok that gfx card companies and the largest OS developer in the world does the exact same thing with thier products.
But isn't that what you're saying?
"IF you spend money on a console (8800 card) and buy a game(Vanguard) that doesn't work on that Console(again 8800) you wouldn't expect the company that made the console to fix it so you could play the game you bought? I'm sure you wouldn't."
Your words on this one. Are you trying to say that the Vid card manufacturer is the game and Vanguard is the console? From a price point issue, that 8800 costs as much as a console and VG costs as much as, well, a game. While many people here believe the VG devs or SOE should work on compatability issues you are telling them that Nvidia should do it and then saying that it "is just silly". I'm sure Nvidia is working on their drivers but, as stated, compatability for VG is probably a low priority for them. Vanguard, on the other hand, should be making compatability with 8800s on their side a high priority if they want to keep those who own those cards as paying subs. I doubt we are going to see posts stating "My 8800 won't play VG right so i'm getting rid of it" any time soon.
As for M$ and Gpu manufacturers and people having problems and paying for them.... if they work with 90% of the hundreds of thousands of games/hardware/software that is out there in the world they did a pretty good job. VG only has to work with what? 7 or 8 windows versions (if you count em all which they don't support ) mac and linux. And basically 2 GPU manufacturers and 2 processor manufacturers which may have a few different hardware architecture tweaks.
Yeah, keep saying Nvidia dropped the ball, say it enough and someone will believe it.
I'm going to post it again because maybe it wasn't seen or read. The following is the disclaimer that goes with the latest 8k series drivers. Now if Nvidia IS TELLING YOU that there is a problem with the card, why would you think there isn't. They posted this right were you download the drivers from. And they're not just telling you that the card is a problem, but Vista as well.
YES, VG needs to opttimize, but the brunt of the problem with this line of cards is not thiers, it's Nvidia, and even Nvidia admits it. They even go so far as to make it clear that if the card breaks, that the warranty may not cover it, because they released the drivers "as is" wich means that you agree to use them knowing that it could mess up, and render your card useless.
These NVIDA Windows Vista drivers are under development. This version is not fully optimized for full 3D performance and may not include all available features available on different operating systems. NVIDIA, along with the industry, is continuing to update its Windows Vista drivers to ensure maximum performance on 3D applications and add support for features. These drivers are provided "AS IS." NVIDIA MAKES NO REPRESENTATIONS OR WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND WHATSOVER AS TO MERCHANTABILITY, COMPATABILITY, PERFORMANCE, APPLICATION OR FUNCTION, AND DISCLAIMS ALL SUCH WARRANTIES TO THE FULLEST EXTENT ALLOWED BY LAW.
Edit: as to your question. I was saying that if the gfx isn't working right, and the company that sold you the card said it's not working right, then it's not the games responcibility to make it work. I'm sure SoE, along with countless other companies, would like Nvidia to get it together, because it's a lot easier to optimize software for hardware, when that hardware works the way it's intended. You can not convince me that it's all VG's fault when Nvidia makes it clear it isn't.
BTW: NO ONE is getting the full performance out of this card. NO ONE. Even if it's performing better then any other card you've used. When Nvidia gets things straightend out, this card will work even better. Just like VG, this card series, and the OS it was designed to run on was released unfinished.
Take a look at the Technical Issues forum buddy. Sigil/SOE has admitted to and attempted to resolve 8 series specific issues with their game ever since the cards released during beta. They're still collecting information specifically about 8 series brand of cards and are attempting to specifically address issues with 8 series cards; VANGUARD issues.
Which, of course, implies that SOE is attempting to pinpoint the source of the problem.
They're not just blaming it all on Nvidia and washing their hands of it all. They're actually trying to figure out what the problem is, and are trying to resolve it. That's what a responsible developer does.
My point now is, you're attempting to convince me and everyone else what SOE doesn't even seem to be aware of: that it's Nvidia's fault the 8 series cards aren't functioning properly, not SOE's. Obviously since SOE is attempting to resolve specific issues with Vanguard when it comes to the 8 series cards, it's probably SOE's fault.
If after SOE has resolved all their personal issues with the 8 series cards, they find something else to blame Nvidia about, so be it. Until then though, it's understandable to start the blame game with the people who sold the game.
EXACTLY. Thank you.
It starts with the game client, THEN it progresses to the hardware. It's not the other way around, so trying to blame it all solely on Nvidia, and on the 8 series of cards is both premature and foolish.
The first job of a developer, when faced with compatibility issues like these, is to gather information from users of those particular cards, find out what specifically is causing the issues, and try to fix it. If it's the game client, and its compatibility, which is typically the first assumption, then the devs can try to fix it on their end.
If, after a bunch of repeated attempts to fix the problem, the hardware itself really IS to blame, then it falls to the manufacturer to try and fix it.
But solely blaming Nvidia now is wrong. SOE is still gathering data as it is, and it may well come out later that something in the game's code is conflicting with the 8 series. Until we know that, it's too soon to just say that it's all the card's fault and no one else's.
These NVIDA Windows Vista drivers are under development. This version is not fully optimized for full 3D performance and may not include all available features available on different operating systems. NVIDIA, along with the industry, is continuing to update its Windows Vista drivers to ensure maximum performance on 3D applications and add support for features. These drivers are provided "AS IS." NVIDIA MAKES NO REPRESENTATIONS OR WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND WHATSOVER AS TO MERCHANTABILITY, COMPATABILITY, PERFORMANCE, APPLICATION OR FUNCTION, AND DISCLAIMS ALL SUCH WARRANTIES TO THE FULLEST EXTENT ALLOWED BY LAW.
You realize, of course, that this is nothing but a standard legal disclaimer and not an actual admission of any direct issues with Vanguard?
That's nothing but legalese to cover their asses so that Joe Q. Public doesn't try to frivolously sue them. It's hardly proof of anything you're arguing in this thread.
Take a look at the Technical Issues forum buddy. Sigil/SOE has admitted to and attempted to resolve 8 series specific issues with their game ever since the cards released during beta. They're still collecting information specifically about 8 series brand of cards and are attempting to specifically address issues with 8 series cards; VANGUARD issues.
Which, of course, implies that SOE is attempting to pinpoint the source of the problem.
They're not just blaming it all on Nvidia and washing their hands of it all. They're actually trying to figure out what the problem is, and are trying to resolve it. That's what a responsible developer does.
My point now is, you're attempting to convince me and everyone else what SOE doesn't even seem to be aware of: that it's Nvidia's fault the 8 series cards aren't functioning properly, not SOE's. Obviously since SOE is attempting to resolve specific issues with Vanguard when it comes to the 8 series cards, it's probably SOE's fault.
If after SOE has resolved all their personal issues with the 8 series cards, they find something else to blame Nvidia about, so be it. Until then though, it's understandable to start the blame game with the people who sold the game.
EXACTLY. Thank you.
It starts with the game client, THEN it progresses to the hardware. It's not the other way around, so trying to blame it all solely on Nvidia, and on the 8 series of cards is both premature and foolish.
The first job of a developer, when faced with compatibility issues like these, is to gather information from users of those particular cards, find out what specifically is causing the issues, and try to fix it. If it's the game client, and its compatibility, which is typically the first assumption, then the devs can try to fix it on their end.
If, after a bunch of repeated attempts to fix the problem, the hardware itself really IS to blame, then it falls to the manufacturer to try and fix it.
But solely blaming Nvidia now is wrong. SOE is still gathering data as it is, and it may well come out later that something in the game's code is conflicting with the 8 series. Until we know that, it's too soon to just say that it's all the card's fault and no one else's.
You trying to put more into what I'm saying then I truelly am.
I am not SOLEY blaming anyone, and in fact have been trying to express to several of you that that is what you are doing when you blame VG for the problems a VERY SPECIFIC card is having.
It's not ust Nvidia, and it's not just VG, but you can't expect VG to fix what Nvidia is responcible for. THE 8K SERIES CARD HAS VARIED PERFORMANCE PROBLEMS ACROSS A VARIETY OF APPLICATIONS.
If you actually read the Patchnotes that Nvidia releases you would see that they are trying to correct this with driver patches that adress SPECIFIC applications. They have already released driver patches that corrected problems it was having with other games. It's not hard to imagine, with the information that Nvidia is, and has provided, that they will continue this untill they have corrected all of the problems with the card. Just like SoE will continue to optimize.
These NVIDA Windows Vista drivers are under development. This version is not fully optimized for full 3D performance and may not include all available features available on different operating systems. NVIDIA, along with the industry, is continuing to update its Windows Vista drivers to ensure maximum performance on 3D applications and add support for features. These drivers are provided "AS IS." NVIDIA MAKES NO REPRESENTATIONS OR WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND WHATSOVER AS TO MERCHANTABILITY, COMPATABILITY, PERFORMANCE, APPLICATION OR FUNCTION, AND DISCLAIMS ALL SUCH WARRANTIES TO THE FULLEST EXTENT ALLOWED BY LAW.
You realize, of course, that this is nothing but a standard legal disclaimer and not an actual admission of any direct issues with Vanguard?
That's nothing but legalese to cover their asses so that Joe Q. Public doesn't try to frivolously sue them. It's hardly proof of anything you're arguing in this thread.
No it's not. Once again you're ignoring information. This disclaimer is not available for the XP version of the drivers, nor is it available for most all of thier other drivers. Nor has a disclaimer like this EVER been standard for Nvidia.
You do realize that the only person providing factual information here is me right. The information I'm giving you comes directly from Nvidia, while the information that some people are trying to give is based off thier own misinformed opinions.
This disclaimer is specific to the drivers for the 8800 and Vista.
Edit: BTW it says it right there that the drivers are under developement, wich means they are incomplete. You complain about VG being released incomplete, but it's ok for the gfx card you spent a few hundred on to not be complete?
You realize, of course, that this is nothing but a standard legal disclaimer and not an actual admission of any direct issues with Vanguard? That's nothing but legalese to cover their asses so that Joe Q. Public doesn't try to frivolously sue them. It's hardly proof of anything you're arguing in this thread.
No it's not.
Sure it is. It's about as standard as a EULA for an MMO, or a TOS for a website.
This disclaimer is not available for the XP version of the drivers, nor is it available for most all of thier other drivers.
Because-- and I know this is hard to comprehend-- Vista is a brand new OS. There are going to be hiccups with any new OS, and all Nvidia is doing with that disclaimer is covering their ass so that some guy who just dropped $2,000+ on a new system with Vista, and a new 8800 GTX doesn't try to sue them if the drivers don't immediately work.
Discliamers like that are a standard business practice. It's still not proof of anything in your argument.
Nor has a disclaimer like this EVER been standard for Nvidia.
I'd guess that they had a similar disclaimer when XP was first released. You just don't want to admit that possibility.
This disclaimer is specific to the drivers for the 8800 and Vista.
Well, duh. Vista IS still brand new, and hasn't been widely adopted yet. Their lawyers probably suggested it so they can stave off any potential lawsuits. It's so standard as to be obvious.
Honestly, you're just reaching with this. You really are.
I myself finally quit VG in the last couple of days as well. Just got bored with it. The game is no longer fun for me.
I am now playing WoW of all things. I tired it for about an hour when it was first release and wasn't impressed, was playing eq2 at the time. I having fun in a mmo again. I'm only planning on being here till aoc comes out but until then I'm enjoying the game.
You realize, of course, that this is nothing but a standard legal disclaimer and not an actual admission of any direct issues with Vanguard?
That's nothing but legalese to cover their asses so that Joe Q. Public doesn't try to frivolously sue them. It's hardly proof of anything you're arguing in this thread.
No it's not.
Sure it is. It's about as standard as a EULA for an MMO, or a TOS for a website.
This disclaimer is not available for the XP version of the drivers, nor is it available for most all of thier other drivers.
Because-- and I know this is hard to comprehend-- Vista is a brand new OS. There are going to be hiccups with any new OS, and all Nvidia is doing with that disclaimer is covering their ass so that some guy who just dropped $2,000+ on a new system with Vista, and a new 8800 GTX doesn't try to sue them if the drivers don't immediately work.
Discliamers like that are a standard business practice. It's still not proof of anything in your argument.
What have I been trying to do in my last half dozen posts? EXPLAIN THIS TO YOU!
Nor has a disclaimer like this EVER been standard for Nvidia.
I'd guess that they had a similar disclaimer when XP was first released. You just don't want to admit that possibility.
Dunno, but you can take a look at thier normal legal disclaimer below.
This disclaimer is specific to the drivers for the 8800 and Vista.
Well, duh. Vista IS still brand new, and hasn't been widely adopted yet. Their lawyers probably suggested it so they can stave off any potential lawsuits. It's so standard as to be obvious.
Again, what have I been trying to explain here. Vista and the gfx card series built around this OS are BRAND NEW and not optimized. Why are you telling me it's obvious? I've been trying to get this point across the entire time!
THEY WEREN'T READY FOR RELEASE!
Honestly, you're just reaching with this. You really are.'
I'm only reaching as far Nvidia's own website guy. The information I'm giving isn't coming from my head, it's coming directly from Nvidia's website. You're not arguing with me, you're agruing with the company that made the card. I'm only providing the information you insist on discrediting.
Below is the "standard" disclaimer that Nvidia releases. You are still giving out incorrect information. The highlighted part is the important part, and you'll notice that no where in there does it say that the drivers are still "under developement" becauset this driver release was complete.
You are partially correct yes. They do speak legalese, and it's normal for them to make clear that they are not always responcible for malfunctioning hardware.
BTW. You have officiall resorted to agreeing with me in a disagreing manner.
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Below is the "standard" disclaimer that Nvidia releases.
Nope. Sorry. Those are the Release Notes. They're not the same as the standard disclaimer that Nvidia has when you download drivers from their site. Try again.
Go to their site and try and download the 8 series drivers for XP. Then look at Section 6 of the license agreement you click on to confirm the download. It's a standard disclaimer that says the software is as is, and there is no warranty.
Guess what? It's the SAME license agreement whether you download XP or Vista drivers.
I've finally nailed what you're blathering on about. You're using the disclaimer for the BETA drivers and are trying to pretend that Nvidia is doing something different because the 8 series of cards are somehow faulty.
Beta drivers are, of course, still in development. So there are added risks to downloading them than there would be for standard drivers. Hence the added disclaimer about the drivers being in development, because they are.
Nice try at blaming Nvidia for everything wrong with Vanguard, but I finally see what you're doing and it won't work.
Below is the "standard" disclaimer that Nvidia releases.
Nope. Sorry. Those are the Release Notes. They're not the same as the standard disclaimer that Nvidia has when you download drivers from their site. Try again.
Go to their site and try and download the 8 series drivers for XP. Then look at Section 6 of the license agreement you click on to confirm the download. It's a standard disclaimer that says the software is as is, and there is no warranty.
Guess what? It's the SAME license agreement whether you download XP or Vista drivers.
I've finally nailed what you're blathering on about. You're using the disclaimer for the BETA drivers and are trying to pretend that Nvidia is doing something different because the 8 series of cards are somehow faulty.
Beta drivers are, of course, still in development. So there are added risks to downloading them than there would be for standard drivers. Hence the added disclaimer about the drivers being in development, because they are.
Nice try at blaming Nvidia for everything wrong with Vanguard, but I finally see what you're doing and it won't work.
Last post then I'm going to my sisters. I can argue with her 5 year old in person, at least then I can pull his fingers out of his ears.
The disclaimer is the same in the release notes as when you download. The release notes are a part of it and it's neccesary to also publish them someplace were they will be read. Not everyone looks at the release notes.
The "under developement" part your simply ignoring.
I never said Nvidia was the problem. I've been saying that they are a PART of the problem. Nvidia has been admitting that the cards are a problem. They even tell you that 3D applications aren't running the way they should.
Why are you agruing against the very information that comes directly from Nvidia? Because you don't dislike Nvidia, just VG, and no matter what anyone tells you, even if it's the guys that make your gfx card, it won't matter. You don't like VG so it's VG's fault.
Do you believe that the 8k series card has no issues? Do you believe that it was released ready?
It is important to note that the problems being reported are almost all related to gaming performance under Vista. Those of us at Ars who are running Vista on NVIDIA rigs have yet to run into any day-to-day performance issues. Still, the early returns are mixed on Vista gaming, with some reviewers reporting decreased performance using Microsoft's newest OS. Given the state of NVIDIA's drivers, those of you GeForce owners who do a lot of gaming would probably be better off waiting for the driver situation to stabilize before taking the plunge into Vista.
There are problems with the 8800 series card no need to dispute that. So there actually are a reason to think that a future driver update from Nvidia can solve alot of problems. Not only for VG, but note that VG actually can be included in some fix from VG.
NVIDIA are working on fixing the problems with the drivers for the card as it is problems with it. Just because VG also has problems with it doe not make a reason to say NVIDIA is not needing to do anything.
And after this there actually have been alot of fixing done from NVIDIAS part, just not maybe all problems are fixed yet.
So history shows that NVIDIA have been working to fix problems with their drivers and card. So What was Urdig saying that made this untrue?
Why are you agruing against the very information that comes directly from Nvidia?
I'm not.
I'm arguing against you trying to pass off the standard Beta driver disclaimer as something that it's not.
Does the 8 series have issues with some games? Sure. But don't try to bullshit people around here by using Nvidia's standard Beta driver disclaimer in place of the license people click on when they download drivers.
Beta means "under development". I'm not ignoring anything. What I'm doing is stopping you from trying to conflate the two different disclaimers, and from suggesting that this means that all of the cards are faulty.
It has nothing to do with Vanguard and everything to do with the fact that you deliberately twisted your sources around to try and make a point. I've just called you on that and you don't like it.
the only games my vista/8800 series rig has problems with are battlefield2142 (go figure) and VG. Hell, I can run doom 3 smooth as a whistle, shadowrun runs fine and so did stalker. I'm about to test WoW out on my new rig and see how that goes. But im pretty confident that will run great.
the only games my vista/8800 series rig has problems with are battlefield2142 (go figure) and VG. Hell, I can run doom 3 smooth as a whistle, shadowrun runs fine and so did stalker. I'm about to test WoW out on my new rig and see how that goes. But im pretty confident that will run great.
Sounds like you have more of a network bandwidth problem than graphics problem. If you only have problems with online games it could be your network setup.
Try running Battlefield 2142 in single player and then online and check out the difference. In general I would uninstall Vista. It is simply not ready for games yet. I would wait 2-3 years to run Vista for games if ever.
Why are you agruing against the very information that comes directly from Nvidia?
I'm not.
I'm arguing against you trying to pass off the standard Beta driver disclaimer as something that it's not.
Does the 8 series have issues with some games? Sure. But don't try to bullshit people around here by using Nvidia's standard Beta driver disclaimer in place of the license people click on when they download drivers.
Beta means "under development". I'm not ignoring anything. What I'm doing is stopping you from trying to conflate the two different disclaimers, and from suggesting that this means that all of the cards are faulty.
It has nothing to do with Vanguard and everything to do with the fact that you deliberately twisted your sources around to try and make a point. I've just called you on that and you don't like it.
So the information coming directly from Nvidias own website is a twisting of the facts?
Weren't you one of the ones that liked to call vanbois blind?
I'll say it again you.
BOTH VG AND THE 8K SERIES DRIVERS NEED TO BE OPTIMIZED. MOST OF THE PROBLEMS PEOPLE ARE HAVING WIITH THE 8K SERIES IS A PART OF WHAT NVIDIA HAS BEEN WORKING ON FOR SOME TIME NOW. IT IS NOT ALL VG'S FAULT. This should be oviouse since the magority of 8k users are having the same problem, and because NVIDIA HAS MADE I AWARE THAT THE 8K SERIES CARDS ARE NOT OPTIMISED FOR 3D APPLICATIONS. That's NVIDIAS WORD not mine!
I don't know how many ways, or how many times I have to keep writing the same thing before you quit making false accusations and spreading misinformation. Basically quit saying I'm saying something I'm not, because it makes you a liar, and it's not fun to have a discussion with someone that perpetually lies to get his OPINION across. It's also not nice when the information I'm giving is FACTUAL coming DIRECTLY from NVIDIA and everything you keep saying is your OPINION, based off or you dislike of the game.
"Send Nvidia an email asking why they haven't provided any support for VG like they have for several other games."
Why would they waste the effort for such a small game? Having a card supported for a big game like WoW, yes, that makes sense. But for small potatoes like VG? That's not worth their effort for a game with 30k subs and dropping.........
That's just silly. So if you spend the money on a console and you buy a game that doesn't work on that console you woudln't expect the company that made the console to fix it so you could play the game you baught? I'm sure you wouldn't. Also, it's up to the GPU manufacturer to esure that the hardware they expect us to buy works properly for every PC game. Would you pay $200+ to MS for an operating system that doesn't work properly on every game? (well that was pretty redundant because people already are). I find it funny that there are people that will critisize a game company for releasing an unfinished game, but seem to find it ok that gfx card companies and the largest OS developer in the world does the exact same thing with thier products.
It really boils down to whether the issue is a chronic, repeatable problem with every (or many) piece(s) of game software you use or if it is an isolated, repeatable occurrence with one piece of game software.
If I own fifteen games for the console in your example and only one exhibits chronic issues, it is not the console. If several games exhibit the same issue, that would indicate a hardware issue.
Conversely, if I own fifteen PC games with similar minimum system requirements and fourteen of them perform exactly as expected but one has repeated issues, it hardly makes fiscal sense to replace a $200 to $500 piece of hardware for a $50 - $65 dollar piece of software, nor does it make sense to blame the hardware for what is clearly a software issue. If several games exhibit the same or similar behaviour, then it is logical to consider that it is a hardware, OS or driver issue.
You have to consider the possibility that the majority of game players have more than one game running on their system and that each of the games they do not comment on performs as expected, except for Vanguard. Thus, the logical assumption is that there is a flaw in that piece of software, rather than the other X number of games the player owns. They aren't coming here to say "All of my games run poorly with my series 8 Nvidia GPU". They are coming here and saying "Vanguard runs poorly".
If all or many of their games ran poorly with their series 8 Nvidia GPU, it stands to reason that they would blame their hardware, OS or drivers rather than the game software.
Specifically, the OP did not mention the issues they were having with all of their other games. Either they are having no issues, or it was just an omission. If they are having no significant issues with any of their other games (even games with comparable minimum or recommended system requirements), it stands to reason the issue is still a software-centric one with Vanguard.
I would be interested to see what other games the OP has installed on their system, whether they are having similar issues with those games or not, and then to make a system requirement comparison. That would more clearly narrow down the issue.
Abbatoir / Abbatoir Cinq Adnihilo Beorn Judge's Edge Somnulus Perfect Black ---------------------- Asheron's Call / Asheron's Call 2 Everquest / Everquest 2 Anarchy Online Shadowbane Dark Age of Camelot Star Wars Galaxies Matrix Online World of Warcraft Guild Wars City of Heroes
So the information coming directly from Nvidias own website is a twisting of the facts?
It is when you're trying to pass off something that applies to their Beta drivers as something that's standard across the board.
And it is when you're trying to pass off their Release Notes as their license agreement, or like all of their other standard disclaimers of warranty.
I don't know how many ways, or how many times I have to keep writing the same thing before you quit making false accusations and spreading misinformation.
It's simple-- stop trying to conflate their various disclaimers into one, and stop trying to use something that applies to their beta drivers as something that applies to all of their standard drivers. Then I won't point out the fact that you're twisting your sources to make your point.
It's also not nice when the information I'm giving is FACTUAL coming DIRECTLY from NVIDIA and everything you keep saying is your OPINION, based off or you dislike of the game.
You're using Nvidia's information by twisting it around, and by conflating various things in order to make a point. That's called spin. There was enough of that around when Brad McQuaid was running the show. It doesn't need to exist anymore for this game.
Again-- it's not about me and this game, but rather stopping you from trying to blur the subject matter. I don't deny that the 8 series of cards has some issues, but you're the one who's been trying to blame all of VG's performance problems on Nvidia alone, not me.
Oh, and BTW-- check my profile. I'm female, not male.
"Send Nvidia an email asking why they haven't provided any support for VG like they have for several other games."
Why would they waste the effort for such a small game? Having a card supported for a big game like WoW, yes, that makes sense. But for small potatoes like VG? That's not worth their effort for a game with 30k subs and dropping.........
That's just silly. So if you spend the money on a console and you buy a game that doesn't work on that console you woudln't expect the company that made the console to fix it so you could play the game you baught? I'm sure you wouldn't.
Also, it's up to the GPU manufacturer to esure that the hardware they expect us to buy works properly for every PC game. Would you pay $200+ to MS for an operating system that doesn't work properly on every game? (well that was pretty redundant because people already are).
I find it funny that there are people that will critisize a game company for releasing an unfinished game, but seem to find it ok that gfx card companies and the largest OS developer in the world does the exact same thing with thier products.
It really boils down to whether the issue is a chronic, repeatable problem with every (or many) piece(s) of game software you use or if it is an isolated, repeatable occurrence with one piece of game software.
If I own fifteen games for the console in your example and only one exhibits chronic issues, it is not the console. If several games exhibit the same issue, that would indicate a hardware issue.
Conversely, if I own fifteen PC games with similar minimum system requirements and fourteen of them perform exactly as expected but one has repeated issues, it hardly makes fiscal sense to replace a $200 to $500 piece of hardware for a $50 - $65 dollar piece of software, nor does it make sense to blame the hardware for what is clearly a software issue. If several games exhibit the same or similar behaviour, then it is logical to consider that it is a hardware, OS or driver issue.
You have to consider the possibility that the majority of game players have more than one game running on their system and that each of the games they do not comment on performs as expected, except for Vanguard. Thus, the logical assumption is that there is a flaw in that piece of software, rather than the other X number of games the player owns. They aren't coming here to say "All of my games run poorly with my series 8 Nvidia GPU". They are coming here and saying "Vanguard runs poorly".
If all or many of their games ran poorly with their series 8 Nvidia GPU, it stands to reason that they would blame their hardware, OS or drivers rather than the game software.
Specifically, the OP did not mention the issues they were having with all of their other games. Either they are having no issues, or it was just an omission. If they are having no significant issues with any of their other games (even games with comparable minimum or recommended system requirements), it stands to reason the issue is still a software-centric one with Vanguard.
I would be interested to see what other games the OP has installed on their system, whether they are having similar issues with those games or not, and then to make a system requirement comparison. That would more clearly narrow down the issue.
I agree with that 100%
One of my points is that you have a piece of hardware that has released drivers that addressed SPECIFIC software applications. VG just hasn't been addressed by Nvidia yet, and there was apparently an article about Nvidia not providing adiquate assistance to some game developers.
What I think a lot of people dont' understand is that the gfx card they are using has to account for each individual game it has to run, just like the games have to account for each individual gfx card. Gfx cards are often released uncompatable with some software, and have to have drivers written for it that allows it to function as properly with those SPECIFIC games. The 8k series is doing that now, and has been since release.
Gfx cards are becoming much more...software specific (?).
Basically it could look something like this. The 8k series was designed with the unreal engine in mind, and has the neccesary software to operate that specific engine and all of the technology that goes along with it (shaders and such) Take an engine that no one else is using, a custome built engine (VG's isn't custom but heavily modified) and now the gfx card has to have drivers that account for what that engine needs to do.
If VG's engine is doing something dif then other games, then Nvidia needs to account for that with drivers that can handle it. They've already done this for Rainbow Six: Vegas, a driver was released that was an update, but also provided SPECIFIC fixes for that game. That game ran fine on other cards, but wouldn't run right for the 8k series, Nvidia had to optimize the drivers for that game. Oblivion I believe was nother game that they had to fix thier drivers for, among a hanfull of other games.
Given time, and optimization by BOTH SoE and Nvidia, and the 8800 owners will have some of the nicest rigs running.
For a little perspective. You can get a 7950 OC for less then an 8800, it supports SM 3.0 and is PCI-E. The jump from this card to the 8800 is something around 5% performance increase at it's most. A very clear indication that, just as Nvidia has already stated, the 8800 isn't optimized to run 3d applications at it's fullest yet.
Nvidia also had time to ensure that the infant drivers would work for the already established games when it was released. It's been the newer releases that have been giving the card trouble.
Edit: On release the 8800 and Vista woudln't run WoW. The card was matched with several MMO's, VG included, and found that it would work for most, but you had to make adjustments to vista, and even then it wasn't good. Guild Wars was the one game that ran flawlessly with the card. Even WoW had a lot of trouble with the 8800 at first.
So the information coming directly from Nvidias own website is a twisting of the facts?
It is when you're trying to pass off something that applies to their Beta drivers as something that's standard across the board.
And it is when you're trying to pass off their Release Notes as their license agreement, or like all of their other standard disclaimers of warranty.
I don't know how many ways, or how many times I have to keep writing the same thing before you quit making false accusations and spreading misinformation.
It's simple-- stop trying to conflate their various disclaimers into one, and stop trying to use something that applies to their beta drivers as something that applies to all of their standard drivers. Then I won't point out the fact that you're twisting your sources to make your point.
It's also not nice when the information I'm giving is FACTUAL coming DIRECTLY from NVIDIA and everything you keep saying is your OPINION, based off or you dislike of the game.
You're using Nvidia's information by twisting it around, and by conflating various things in order to make a point. That's called spin. There was enough of that around when Brad McQuaid was running the show. It doesn't need to exist anymore for this game. THE INFO COMES FROM THIER DOWNLOAD PAGE I CAN'T TWIST WHAT YOU CAN LOOK AT EXACTLY AS I KEEP GIVING IT TO YOU.
Again-- it's not about me and this game, but rather stopping you from trying to blur the subject matter. I don't deny that the 8 series of cards has some issues, but you're the one who's been trying to blame all of VG's performance problems on Nvidia alone, not me. I KEEP SAYING THAT IT'S BOTH OF THIER FAULTS WHEY CAN'T YOU EXCEPT THAT!
Oh, and BTW-- check my profile. I'm female, not male. I could care if you were a 3 legged dog with purple fur. All I see are letters. Your sex means nothing to me.
I keep responding to you, and I don't know why. I do understand why this feels oddly familliar. It's like trying to explain something to my girl friend and she keeps telling me I'm wrong when she's saying the exact same thing to me but from a dif. perspective.
I simply do not think that is entirely SoE's fault the game isn't running right on a specific series of gfx card when the company that made the card can't get the card to work properly themselves. I don't know how much clearer I can say that.
Please stop posting that I'm providing misinformation. It's not polite seeing as I'm not providing anything that you can't varify by simply going to Nvidias website, or reading the information I keep providing that comes DIRECTLY from the Nvidia site itself.
The drivers I showed you are the RELEASE VERSION. I'll link it again. Drivers 158.24 are NOT BETA drivers. Thier better drivers are 158.43 as highlighted in the green text. Once again. You are accusing me of giving false information, when the info you keep giving is not true. You are accusing me of "twisting" information when the information you are twisting isn't true. Like the drivers I keep linking being beta when they are in FACT NOT BETA.
Released June 1, 2007
NVIDIA is committed to supporting Microsoft Windows Vista on current and previous GPU generations. It's important to us that you have an excellent experience through the Vista transition, and driver development is the highest priority in our company.
We are working diligently to make sure we achieve and maintain the level of driver quality and reliability that NVIDIA is known for. Over the coming weeks NVIDIA and our partners, along with the industry, will continue to update Windows Vista drivers to ensure maximum performance on 3D applications and add feature support.
For those of you that are using Windows Vista and experiencing any problems, we've set up a website for bug reporting – http://www.nvidia.com/vistaqualityassurance. Our product managers will be reviewing this information daily and will be contacting users to help resolve any issues they might be experiencing.
Release Highlights:
WHQL Certified driver.
This driver fixes a problem when trying to enable NVIDIA SLI using the international versions of Windows Vista.
Increased performance in 3D applications.
PureVideo™ HD support.
Add support for forcing Vertical Sync in DirectX applications.
Updated NVIDIA Control Panel with improved user interface (Please see the Release Notes for more details).
Numerous game and application compatibility fixes.
This driver supports the following 3D features:
Single GPU support
DirectX 9 support for GeForce 6/7/8 series GPUs
DirectX 10 support for GeForce 8 series GPUs
OpenGL support for GeForce 6/7/8 series GPUs
NVIDIA SLI support
DirectX 9 support for 6/7/8 series GPUs
OpenGL support for 6/7/8 series GPUs
DirectX 10 NVIDIA SLI support for GeForce 8 series GPUs is available in v158.43 Beta drivers.
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Please read the release notes for more information on product support, feature limitations, and known compatibility issues
These NVIDA Windows Vista drivers are under development. This version is not fully optimized for full 3D performance and may not include all available features available on different operating systems. NVIDIA, along with the industry, is continuing to update its Windows Vista drivers to ensure maximum performance on 3D applications and add support for features. These drivers are provided "AS IS." NVIDIA MAKES NO REPRESENTATIONS OR WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND WHATSOVER AS TO MERCHANTABILITY, COMPATABILITY, PERFORMANCE, APPLICATION OR FUNCTION, AND DISCLAIMS ALL SUCH WARRANTIES TO THE FULLEST EXTENT ALLOWED BY LAW.
Edit: They do not release beta drivers as an official driver release. You have to download the beta drivers specifically. You get this driver if you select GFX card > 8k Series > Windows Vista 32 bit. As anyone would when downloading the latest drivers. You have to get the beta onces from a dif. download, and they are clearly indicated as being the beta drivers. They even have a dif. version number.
Here are some of the issues that the 8k series is having with a variety of games. The following is just a FEW of the problems the card is currently having. Or more precisely the drivers. One of wich I myself am dealing with, and I don't even have Vista or an 8k. My media player will crash on occasion between videos. It's the card I'm running that keeps doing it, but I'm not blaming MS.
Here is something to consider. Nvidia is partnering with MS. They built a card around MS new OS. Much like ATI was baught up by AMD. The Nvidia Website is advertising Vista and is going to great lengths to do so (does MS own a portion of Nvidia? I wonder.) Nvidia is providing NO SUPPORT FOR VG.
I find it odd that a gfx card that can't run VG, a game that was originally financed by MS, a gfx card that is supporting and supported by MS isn't providing any support for VG. Call it a conspiracy theory, or you can call it big business. Either or works and fits
Edit: Most people dont' bother to look at this stuff when they download a new driver. Hell, most people don't think to even update thier drives untill they have a problem running something; hence the reason the fist thing you're told to do when you have a problem is update your drivers. I'm not suprised that people don't realise that the card they are using is giving them problems, not just the game.
I ask you again. You spend all this energy complaining about a game that cost 50$ out of the box and 15$ a month if you choose to continue playing, but you don't complain to the GPU manufacturer who charged you 400+$ for a gfx card that isn't even optimised to do what it's supposed to do. RUN 3D GAMES CORRECTLY.
WoW is an Asian game and a bot game. Bot PCs run WoW just fine. Your system, and virtually every system out there, can run WoW because the graphics are so pathetic and cartoony; it is like a child's MMO. Actually, it is an Asian MMO with a lot of bots and some American and European children. If they are American or European adults, they think like children.
As to your quitting Vanguard, maybe you should quit MMOs altogether? Get a life. Get a job. A boy or girlfriend. See the world?
Some of us are getting too consumed in the drama of MMOs, let alone the games themselves. Ultimately, we just waste our time.
Charsles, I think you forgot to take your meds again, seems like you're listening to the voices inside your head and not to anything based in reality.
Every system runs WOW well because Blizzard designed it to run on a broad spectrum of hardware, smart strategy if you are trying to get a large subscription base and make a lot of money.....
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I have not reviewed all the posts in this thread, so I do not know if anyone previously mentioned it. I recall late in beta one of the developers mentioned on the beta forums he had gone out to buy a retail 8800 series nVidia card as soon as they were released because despite his pleas (and usual accommodation by relevant companies), nVidia had not sent an engineering sample to Sigil so they could optimize VG for the new architecture.
Now I'm not using this as some overall excuse for sloppy programming and other obvious ingame problems, but given the circumstances I can see 8800 series cards suffering from additional problems in VG from both that and non-optimized drivers from nVidia. As I recall, new video card owners had their hopes of amazing performance increases in beta dashed to hell because all they got was a black screen.
Comments
That's just silly. So if you spend the money on a console and you buy a game that doesn't work on that console you woudln't expect the company that made the console to fix it so you could play the game you baught? I'm sure you wouldn't.Also, it's up to the GPU manufacturer to esure that the hardware they expect us to buy works properly for every PC game. Would you pay $200+ to MS for an operating system that doesn't work properly on every game? (well that was pretty redundant because people already are).
I find it funny that there are people that will critisize a game company for releasing an unfinished game, but seem to find it ok that gfx card companies and the largest OS developer in the world does the exact same thing with thier products.
But isn't that what you're saying?
"IF you spend money on a console (8800 card) and buy a game(Vanguard) that doesn't work on that Console(again 8800) you wouldn't expect the company that made the console to fix it so you could play the game you bought? I'm sure you wouldn't."
Your words on this one. Are you trying to say that the Vid card manufacturer is the game and Vanguard is the console? From a price point issue, that 8800 costs as much as a console and VG costs as much as, well, a game. While many people here believe the VG devs or SOE should work on compatability issues you are telling them that Nvidia should do it and then saying that it "is just silly". I'm sure Nvidia is working on their drivers but, as stated, compatability for VG is probably a low priority for them. Vanguard, on the other hand, should be making compatability with 8800s on their side a high priority if they want to keep those who own those cards as paying subs. I doubt we are going to see posts stating "My 8800 won't play VG right so i'm getting rid of it" any time soon.
As for M$ and Gpu manufacturers and people having problems and paying for them.... if they work with 90% of the hundreds of thousands of games/hardware/software that is out there in the world they did a pretty good job. VG only has to work with what? 7 or 8 windows versions (if you count em all which they don't support ) mac and linux. And basically 2 GPU manufacturers and 2 processor manufacturers which may have a few different hardware architecture tweaks.
Yeah, keep saying Nvidia dropped the ball, say it enough and someone will believe it.
That's just silly. So if you spend the money on a console and you buy a game that doesn't work on that console you woudln't expect the company that made the console to fix it so you could play the game you baught? I'm sure you wouldn't.Also, it's up to the GPU manufacturer to esure that the hardware they expect us to buy works properly for every PC game. Would you pay $200+ to MS for an operating system that doesn't work properly on every game? (well that was pretty redundant because people already are).
I find it funny that there are people that will critisize a game company for releasing an unfinished game, but seem to find it ok that gfx card companies and the largest OS developer in the world does the exact same thing with thier products.
But isn't that what you're saying?
"IF you spend money on a console (8800 card) and buy a game(Vanguard) that doesn't work on that Console(again 8800) you wouldn't expect the company that made the console to fix it so you could play the game you bought? I'm sure you wouldn't."
Your words on this one. Are you trying to say that the Vid card manufacturer is the game and Vanguard is the console? From a price point issue, that 8800 costs as much as a console and VG costs as much as, well, a game. While many people here believe the VG devs or SOE should work on compatability issues you are telling them that Nvidia should do it and then saying that it "is just silly". I'm sure Nvidia is working on their drivers but, as stated, compatability for VG is probably a low priority for them. Vanguard, on the other hand, should be making compatability with 8800s on their side a high priority if they want to keep those who own those cards as paying subs. I doubt we are going to see posts stating "My 8800 won't play VG right so i'm getting rid of it" any time soon.
As for M$ and Gpu manufacturers and people having problems and paying for them.... if they work with 90% of the hundreds of thousands of games/hardware/software that is out there in the world they did a pretty good job. VG only has to work with what? 7 or 8 windows versions (if you count em all which they don't support ) mac and linux. And basically 2 GPU manufacturers and 2 processor manufacturers which may have a few different hardware architecture tweaks.
Yeah, keep saying Nvidia dropped the ball, say it enough and someone will believe it.
I'm going to post it again because maybe it wasn't seen or read. The following is the disclaimer that goes with the latest 8k series drivers. Now if Nvidia IS TELLING YOU that there is a problem with the card, why would you think there isn't. They posted this right were you download the drivers from. And they're not just telling you that the card is a problem, but Vista as well.
YES, VG needs to opttimize, but the brunt of the problem with this line of cards is not thiers, it's Nvidia, and even Nvidia admits it. They even go so far as to make it clear that if the card breaks, that the warranty may not cover it, because they released the drivers "as is" wich means that you agree to use them knowing that it could mess up, and render your card useless.
These NVIDA Windows Vista drivers are under development. This version is not fully optimized for full 3D performance and may not include all available features available on different operating systems. NVIDIA, along with the industry, is continuing to update its Windows Vista drivers to ensure maximum performance on 3D applications and add support for features. These drivers are provided "AS IS." NVIDIA MAKES NO REPRESENTATIONS OR WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND WHATSOVER AS TO MERCHANTABILITY, COMPATABILITY, PERFORMANCE, APPLICATION OR FUNCTION, AND DISCLAIMS ALL SUCH WARRANTIES TO THE FULLEST EXTENT ALLOWED BY LAW.
Edit: as to your question. I was saying that if the gfx isn't working right, and the company that sold you the card said it's not working right, then it's not the games responcibility to make it work. I'm sure SoE, along with countless other companies, would like Nvidia to get it together, because it's a lot easier to optimize software for hardware, when that hardware works the way it's intended. You can not convince me that it's all VG's fault when Nvidia makes it clear it isn't.
BTW: NO ONE is getting the full performance out of this card. NO ONE. Even if it's performing better then any other card you've used. When Nvidia gets things straightend out, this card will work even better. Just like VG, this card series, and the OS it was designed to run on was released unfinished.
Wish Darkfall would release.
Which, of course, implies that SOE is attempting to pinpoint the source of the problem.
They're not just blaming it all on Nvidia and washing their hands of it all. They're actually trying to figure out what the problem is, and are trying to resolve it. That's what a responsible developer does.
EXACTLY. Thank you.
It starts with the game client, THEN it progresses to the hardware. It's not the other way around, so trying to blame it all solely on Nvidia, and on the 8 series of cards is both premature and foolish.
The first job of a developer, when faced with compatibility issues like these, is to gather information from users of those particular cards, find out what specifically is causing the issues, and try to fix it. If it's the game client, and its compatibility, which is typically the first assumption, then the devs can try to fix it on their end.
If, after a bunch of repeated attempts to fix the problem, the hardware itself really IS to blame, then it falls to the manufacturer to try and fix it.
But solely blaming Nvidia now is wrong. SOE is still gathering data as it is, and it may well come out later that something in the game's code is conflicting with the 8 series. Until we know that, it's too soon to just say that it's all the card's fault and no one else's.
You realize, of course, that this is nothing but a standard legal disclaimer and not an actual admission of any direct issues with Vanguard?
That's nothing but legalese to cover their asses so that Joe Q. Public doesn't try to frivolously sue them. It's hardly proof of anything you're arguing in this thread.
Which, of course, implies that SOE is attempting to pinpoint the source of the problem.
They're not just blaming it all on Nvidia and washing their hands of it all. They're actually trying to figure out what the problem is, and are trying to resolve it. That's what a responsible developer does.
EXACTLY. Thank you.
It starts with the game client, THEN it progresses to the hardware. It's not the other way around, so trying to blame it all solely on Nvidia, and on the 8 series of cards is both premature and foolish.
The first job of a developer, when faced with compatibility issues like these, is to gather information from users of those particular cards, find out what specifically is causing the issues, and try to fix it. If it's the game client, and its compatibility, which is typically the first assumption, then the devs can try to fix it on their end.
If, after a bunch of repeated attempts to fix the problem, the hardware itself really IS to blame, then it falls to the manufacturer to try and fix it.
You trying to put more into what I'm saying then I truelly am.But solely blaming Nvidia now is wrong. SOE is still gathering data as it is, and it may well come out later that something in the game's code is conflicting with the 8 series. Until we know that, it's too soon to just say that it's all the card's fault and no one else's.
I am not SOLEY blaming anyone, and in fact have been trying to express to several of you that that is what you are doing when you blame VG for the problems a VERY SPECIFIC card is having.
It's not ust Nvidia, and it's not just VG, but you can't expect VG to fix what Nvidia is responcible for. THE 8K SERIES CARD HAS VARIED PERFORMANCE PROBLEMS ACROSS A VARIETY OF APPLICATIONS.
If you actually read the Patchnotes that Nvidia releases you would see that they are trying to correct this with driver patches that adress SPECIFIC applications. They have already released driver patches that corrected problems it was having with other games. It's not hard to imagine, with the information that Nvidia is, and has provided, that they will continue this untill they have corrected all of the problems with the card. Just like SoE will continue to optimize.
Wish Darkfall would release.
You realize, of course, that this is nothing but a standard legal disclaimer and not an actual admission of any direct issues with Vanguard?
That's nothing but legalese to cover their asses so that Joe Q. Public doesn't try to frivolously sue them. It's hardly proof of anything you're arguing in this thread.
No it's not. Once again you're ignoring information. This disclaimer is not available for the XP version of the drivers, nor is it available for most all of thier other drivers. Nor has a disclaimer like this EVER been standard for Nvidia.
You do realize that the only person providing factual information here is me right. The information I'm giving you comes directly from Nvidia, while the information that some people are trying to give is based off thier own misinformed opinions.
This disclaimer is specific to the drivers for the 8800 and Vista.
Edit: BTW it says it right there that the drivers are under developement, wich means they are incomplete. You complain about VG being released incomplete, but it's ok for the gfx card you spent a few hundred on to not be complete?
Wish Darkfall would release.
Sure it is. It's about as standard as a EULA for an MMO, or a TOS for a website.
Because-- and I know this is hard to comprehend-- Vista is a brand new OS. There are going to be hiccups with any new OS, and all Nvidia is doing with that disclaimer is covering their ass so that some guy who just dropped $2,000+ on a new system with Vista, and a new 8800 GTX doesn't try to sue them if the drivers don't immediately work.
Discliamers like that are a standard business practice. It's still not proof of anything in your argument.
I'd guess that they had a similar disclaimer when XP was first released. You just don't want to admit that possibility.
Well, duh. Vista IS still brand new, and hasn't been widely adopted yet. Their lawyers probably suggested it so they can stave off any potential lawsuits. It's so standard as to be obvious.
Honestly, you're just reaching with this. You really are.
I myself finally quit VG in the last couple of days as well. Just got bored with it. The game is no longer fun for me.
I am now playing WoW of all things. I tired it for about an hour when it was first release and wasn't impressed, was playing eq2 at the time. I having fun in a mmo again. I'm only planning on being here till aoc comes out but until then I'm enjoying the game.
No it's not.
Sure it is. It's about as standard as a EULA for an MMO, or a TOS for a website.
Because-- and I know this is hard to comprehend-- Vista is a brand new OS. There are going to be hiccups with any new OS, and all Nvidia is doing with that disclaimer is covering their ass so that some guy who just dropped $2,000+ on a new system with Vista, and a new 8800 GTX doesn't try to sue them if the drivers don't immediately work.
Discliamers like that are a standard business practice. It's still not proof of anything in your argument.
What have I been trying to do in my last half dozen posts? EXPLAIN THIS TO YOU!
I'd guess that they had a similar disclaimer when XP was first released. You just don't want to admit that possibility.
Dunno, but you can take a look at thier normal legal disclaimer below.
Well, duh. Vista IS still brand new, and hasn't been widely adopted yet. Their lawyers probably suggested it so they can stave off any potential lawsuits. It's so standard as to be obvious.
Again, what have I been trying to explain here. Vista and the gfx card series built around this OS are BRAND NEW and not optimized. Why are you telling me it's obvious? I've been trying to get this point across the entire time!
THEY WEREN'T READY FOR RELEASE!
Honestly, you're just reaching with this. You really are.'
I'm only reaching as far Nvidia's own website guy. The information I'm giving isn't coming from my head, it's coming directly from Nvidia's website. You're not arguing with me, you're agruing with the company that made the card. I'm only providing the information you insist on discrediting.
Below is the "standard" disclaimer that Nvidia releases. You are still giving out incorrect information. The highlighted part is the important part, and you'll notice that no where in there does it say that the drivers are still "under developement" becauset this driver release was complete.
You are partially correct yes. They do speak legalese, and it's normal for them to make clear that they are not always responcible for malfunctioning hardware.
BTW. You have officiall resorted to agreeing with me in a disagreing manner.
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Wish Darkfall would release.
Its always up to the game company to fix the video issue not the other around. Just admit it the game sux.
Nope. Sorry. Those are the Release Notes. They're not the same as the standard disclaimer that Nvidia has when you download drivers from their site. Try again.
Go to their site and try and download the 8 series drivers for XP. Then look at Section 6 of the license agreement you click on to confirm the download. It's a standard disclaimer that says the software is as is, and there is no warranty.
Guess what? It's the SAME license agreement whether you download XP or Vista drivers.
I've finally nailed what you're blathering on about. You're using the disclaimer for the BETA drivers and are trying to pretend that Nvidia is doing something different because the 8 series of cards are somehow faulty.
Beta drivers are, of course, still in development. So there are added risks to downloading them than there would be for standard drivers. Hence the added disclaimer about the drivers being in development, because they are.
Nice try at blaming Nvidia for everything wrong with Vanguard, but I finally see what you're doing and it won't work.
Nope. Sorry. Those are the Release Notes. They're not the same as the standard disclaimer that Nvidia has when you download drivers from their site. Try again.
Go to their site and try and download the 8 series drivers for XP. Then look at Section 6 of the license agreement you click on to confirm the download. It's a standard disclaimer that says the software is as is, and there is no warranty.
Guess what? It's the SAME license agreement whether you download XP or Vista drivers.
I've finally nailed what you're blathering on about. You're using the disclaimer for the BETA drivers and are trying to pretend that Nvidia is doing something different because the 8 series of cards are somehow faulty.
Beta drivers are, of course, still in development. So there are added risks to downloading them than there would be for standard drivers. Hence the added disclaimer about the drivers being in development, because they are.
Nice try at blaming Nvidia for everything wrong with Vanguard, but I finally see what you're doing and it won't work.
Last post then I'm going to my sisters. I can argue with her 5 year old in person, at least then I can pull his fingers out of his ears.The disclaimer is the same in the release notes as when you download. The release notes are a part of it and it's neccesary to also publish them someplace were they will be read. Not everyone looks at the release notes.
The "under developement" part your simply ignoring.
I never said Nvidia was the problem. I've been saying that they are a PART of the problem. Nvidia has been admitting that the cards are a problem. They even tell you that 3D applications aren't running the way they should.
Why are you agruing against the very information that comes directly from Nvidia? Because you don't dislike Nvidia, just VG, and no matter what anyone tells you, even if it's the guys that make your gfx card, it won't matter. You don't like VG so it's VG's fault.
Do you believe that the 8k series card has no issues? Do you believe that it was released ready?
Wish Darkfall would release.
arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070206-8784.html
There are problems with the 8800 series card no need to dispute that. So there actually are a reason to think that a future driver update from Nvidia can solve alot of problems. Not only for VG, but note that VG actually can be included in some fix from VG.
NVIDIA are working on fixing the problems with the drivers for the card as it is problems with it. Just because VG also has problems with it doe not make a reason to say NVIDIA is not needing to do anything.
And after this there actually have been alot of fixing done from NVIDIAS part, just not maybe all problems are fixed yet.
So history shows that NVIDIA have been working to fix problems with their drivers and card. So What was Urdig saying that made this untrue?
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
I'm not.
I'm arguing against you trying to pass off the standard Beta driver disclaimer as something that it's not.
Does the 8 series have issues with some games? Sure. But don't try to bullshit people around here by using Nvidia's standard Beta driver disclaimer in place of the license people click on when they download drivers.
Beta means "under development". I'm not ignoring anything. What I'm doing is stopping you from trying to conflate the two different disclaimers, and from suggesting that this means that all of the cards are faulty.
It has nothing to do with Vanguard and everything to do with the fact that you deliberately twisted your sources around to try and make a point. I've just called you on that and you don't like it.
the only games my vista/8800 series rig has problems with are battlefield2142 (go figure) and VG. Hell, I can run doom 3 smooth as a whistle, shadowrun runs fine and so did stalker. I'm about to test WoW out on my new rig and see how that goes. But im pretty confident that will run great.
Sounds like you have more of a network bandwidth problem than graphics problem. If you only have problems with online games it could be your network setup.
Try running Battlefield 2142 in single player and then online and check out the difference. In general I would uninstall Vista. It is simply not ready for games yet. I would wait 2-3 years to run Vista for games if ever.
I'm not.
I'm arguing against you trying to pass off the standard Beta driver disclaimer as something that it's not.
Does the 8 series have issues with some games? Sure. But don't try to bullshit people around here by using Nvidia's standard Beta driver disclaimer in place of the license people click on when they download drivers.
Beta means "under development". I'm not ignoring anything. What I'm doing is stopping you from trying to conflate the two different disclaimers, and from suggesting that this means that all of the cards are faulty.
It has nothing to do with Vanguard and everything to do with the fact that you deliberately twisted your sources around to try and make a point. I've just called you on that and you don't like it.
So the information coming directly from Nvidias own website is a twisting of the facts?
Weren't you one of the ones that liked to call vanbois blind?
I'll say it again you.
BOTH VG AND THE 8K SERIES DRIVERS NEED TO BE OPTIMIZED. MOST OF THE PROBLEMS PEOPLE ARE HAVING WIITH THE 8K SERIES IS A PART OF WHAT NVIDIA HAS BEEN WORKING ON FOR SOME TIME NOW. IT IS NOT ALL VG'S FAULT. This should be oviouse since the magority of 8k users are having the same problem, and because NVIDIA HAS MADE I AWARE THAT THE 8K SERIES CARDS ARE NOT OPTIMISED FOR 3D APPLICATIONS. That's NVIDIAS WORD not mine!
I don't know how many ways, or how many times I have to keep writing the same thing before you quit making false accusations and spreading misinformation. Basically quit saying I'm saying something I'm not, because it makes you a liar, and it's not fun to have a discussion with someone that perpetually lies to get his OPINION across. It's also not nice when the information I'm giving is FACTUAL coming DIRECTLY from NVIDIA and everything you keep saying is your OPINION, based off or you dislike of the game.
Wish Darkfall would release.
It really boils down to whether the issue is a chronic, repeatable problem with every (or many) piece(s) of game software you use or if it is an isolated, repeatable occurrence with one piece of game software.
If I own fifteen games for the console in your example and only one exhibits chronic issues, it is not the console. If several games exhibit the same issue, that would indicate a hardware issue.
Conversely, if I own fifteen PC games with similar minimum system requirements and fourteen of them perform exactly as expected but one has repeated issues, it hardly makes fiscal sense to replace a $200 to $500 piece of hardware for a $50 - $65 dollar piece of software, nor does it make sense to blame the hardware for what is clearly a software issue. If several games exhibit the same or similar behaviour, then it is logical to consider that it is a hardware, OS or driver issue.
You have to consider the possibility that the majority of game players have more than one game running on their system and that each of the games they do not comment on performs as expected, except for Vanguard. Thus, the logical assumption is that there is a flaw in that piece of software, rather than the other X number of games the player owns. They aren't coming here to say "All of my games run poorly with my series 8 Nvidia GPU". They are coming here and saying "Vanguard runs poorly".
If all or many of their games ran poorly with their series 8 Nvidia GPU, it stands to reason that they would blame their hardware, OS or drivers rather than the game software.
Specifically, the OP did not mention the issues they were having with all of their other games. Either they are having no issues, or it was just an omission. If they are having no significant issues with any of their other games (even games with comparable minimum or recommended system requirements), it stands to reason the issue is still a software-centric one with Vanguard.
I would be interested to see what other games the OP has installed on their system, whether they are having similar issues with those games or not, and then to make a system requirement comparison. That would more clearly narrow down the issue.
Abbatoir / Abbatoir Cinq
Adnihilo
Beorn Judge's Edge
Somnulus
Perfect Black
----------------------
Asheron's Call / Asheron's Call 2
Everquest / Everquest 2
Anarchy Online
Shadowbane
Dark Age of Camelot
Star Wars Galaxies
Matrix Online
World of Warcraft
Guild Wars
City of Heroes
It is when you're trying to pass off something that applies to their Beta drivers as something that's standard across the board.
And it is when you're trying to pass off their Release Notes as their license agreement, or like all of their other standard disclaimers of warranty.
It's simple-- stop trying to conflate their various disclaimers into one, and stop trying to use something that applies to their beta drivers as something that applies to all of their standard drivers. Then I won't point out the fact that you're twisting your sources to make your point.
You're using Nvidia's information by twisting it around, and by conflating various things in order to make a point. That's called spin. There was enough of that around when Brad McQuaid was running the show. It doesn't need to exist anymore for this game.
Again-- it's not about me and this game, but rather stopping you from trying to blur the subject matter. I don't deny that the 8 series of cards has some issues, but you're the one who's been trying to blame all of VG's performance problems on Nvidia alone, not me.
Oh, and BTW-- check my profile. I'm female, not male.
That's just silly. So if you spend the money on a console and you buy a game that doesn't work on that console you woudln't expect the company that made the console to fix it so you could play the game you baught? I'm sure you wouldn't.Also, it's up to the GPU manufacturer to esure that the hardware they expect us to buy works properly for every PC game. Would you pay $200+ to MS for an operating system that doesn't work properly on every game? (well that was pretty redundant because people already are).
I find it funny that there are people that will critisize a game company for releasing an unfinished game, but seem to find it ok that gfx card companies and the largest OS developer in the world does the exact same thing with thier products.
It really boils down to whether the issue is a chronic, repeatable problem with every (or many) piece(s) of game software you use or if it is an isolated, repeatable occurrence with one piece of game software.
If I own fifteen games for the console in your example and only one exhibits chronic issues, it is not the console. If several games exhibit the same issue, that would indicate a hardware issue.
Conversely, if I own fifteen PC games with similar minimum system requirements and fourteen of them perform exactly as expected but one has repeated issues, it hardly makes fiscal sense to replace a $200 to $500 piece of hardware for a $50 - $65 dollar piece of software, nor does it make sense to blame the hardware for what is clearly a software issue. If several games exhibit the same or similar behaviour, then it is logical to consider that it is a hardware, OS or driver issue.
You have to consider the possibility that the majority of game players have more than one game running on their system and that each of the games they do not comment on performs as expected, except for Vanguard. Thus, the logical assumption is that there is a flaw in that piece of software, rather than the other X number of games the player owns. They aren't coming here to say "All of my games run poorly with my series 8 Nvidia GPU". They are coming here and saying "Vanguard runs poorly".
If all or many of their games ran poorly with their series 8 Nvidia GPU, it stands to reason that they would blame their hardware, OS or drivers rather than the game software.
Specifically, the OP did not mention the issues they were having with all of their other games. Either they are having no issues, or it was just an omission. If they are having no significant issues with any of their other games (even games with comparable minimum or recommended system requirements), it stands to reason the issue is still a software-centric one with Vanguard.
I would be interested to see what other games the OP has installed on their system, whether they are having similar issues with those games or not, and then to make a system requirement comparison. That would more clearly narrow down the issue.
I agree with that 100%
One of my points is that you have a piece of hardware that has released drivers that addressed SPECIFIC software applications. VG just hasn't been addressed by Nvidia yet, and there was apparently an article about Nvidia not providing adiquate assistance to some game developers.
What I think a lot of people dont' understand is that the gfx card they are using has to account for each individual game it has to run, just like the games have to account for each individual gfx card. Gfx cards are often released uncompatable with some software, and have to have drivers written for it that allows it to function as properly with those SPECIFIC games. The 8k series is doing that now, and has been since release.
Gfx cards are becoming much more...software specific (?).
Basically it could look something like this. The 8k series was designed with the unreal engine in mind, and has the neccesary software to operate that specific engine and all of the technology that goes along with it (shaders and such) Take an engine that no one else is using, a custome built engine (VG's isn't custom but heavily modified) and now the gfx card has to have drivers that account for what that engine needs to do.
If VG's engine is doing something dif then other games, then Nvidia needs to account for that with drivers that can handle it. They've already done this for Rainbow Six: Vegas, a driver was released that was an update, but also provided SPECIFIC fixes for that game. That game ran fine on other cards, but wouldn't run right for the 8k series, Nvidia had to optimize the drivers for that game. Oblivion I believe was nother game that they had to fix thier drivers for, among a hanfull of other games.
Given time, and optimization by BOTH SoE and Nvidia, and the 8800 owners will have some of the nicest rigs running.
For a little perspective. You can get a 7950 OC for less then an 8800, it supports SM 3.0 and is PCI-E. The jump from this card to the 8800 is something around 5% performance increase at it's most. A very clear indication that, just as Nvidia has already stated, the 8800 isn't optimized to run 3d applications at it's fullest yet.
Nvidia also had time to ensure that the infant drivers would work for the already established games when it was released. It's been the newer releases that have been giving the card trouble.
Edit: On release the 8800 and Vista woudln't run WoW. The card was matched with several MMO's, VG included, and found that it would work for most, but you had to make adjustments to vista, and even then it wasn't good. Guild Wars was the one game that ran flawlessly with the card. Even WoW had a lot of trouble with the 8800 at first.
Wish Darkfall would release.
It is when you're trying to pass off something that applies to their Beta drivers as something that's standard across the board.
And it is when you're trying to pass off their Release Notes as their license agreement, or like all of their other standard disclaimers of warranty.
It's simple-- stop trying to conflate their various disclaimers into one, and stop trying to use something that applies to their beta drivers as something that applies to all of their standard drivers. Then I won't point out the fact that you're twisting your sources to make your point.
You're using Nvidia's information by twisting it around, and by conflating various things in order to make a point. That's called spin. There was enough of that around when Brad McQuaid was running the show. It doesn't need to exist anymore for this game. THE INFO COMES FROM THIER DOWNLOAD PAGE I CAN'T TWIST WHAT YOU CAN LOOK AT EXACTLY AS I KEEP GIVING IT TO YOU.
Again-- it's not about me and this game, but rather stopping you from trying to blur the subject matter. I don't deny that the 8 series of cards has some issues, but you're the one who's been trying to blame all of VG's performance problems on Nvidia alone, not me. I KEEP SAYING THAT IT'S BOTH OF THIER FAULTS WHEY CAN'T YOU EXCEPT THAT!
Oh, and BTW-- check my profile. I'm female, not male. I could care if you were a 3 legged dog with purple fur. All I see are letters. Your sex means nothing to me.
I keep responding to you, and I don't know why. I do understand why this feels oddly familliar. It's like trying to explain something to my girl friend and she keeps telling me I'm wrong when she's saying the exact same thing to me but from a dif. perspective.
I simply do not think that is entirely SoE's fault the game isn't running right on a specific series of gfx card when the company that made the card can't get the card to work properly themselves. I don't know how much clearer I can say that.
Please stop posting that I'm providing misinformation. It's not polite seeing as I'm not providing anything that you can't varify by simply going to Nvidias website, or reading the information I keep providing that comes DIRECTLY from the Nvidia site itself.
The drivers I showed you are the RELEASE VERSION. I'll link it again. Drivers 158.24 are NOT BETA drivers. Thier better drivers are 158.43 as highlighted in the green text. Once again. You are accusing me of giving false information, when the info you keep giving is not true. You are accusing me of "twisting" information when the information you are twisting isn't true. Like the drivers I keep linking being beta when they are in FACT NOT BETA.
Released June 1, 2007
NVIDIA is committed to supporting Microsoft Windows Vista on current and previous GPU generations. It's important to us that you have an excellent experience through the Vista transition, and driver development is the highest priority in our company.
We are working diligently to make sure we achieve and maintain the level of driver quality and reliability that NVIDIA is known for. Over the coming weeks NVIDIA and our partners, along with the industry, will continue to update Windows Vista drivers to ensure maximum performance on 3D applications and add feature support.
For those of you that are using Windows Vista and experiencing any problems, we've set up a website for bug reporting – http://www.nvidia.com/vistaqualityassurance. Our product managers will be reviewing this information daily and will be contacting users to help resolve any issues they might be experiencing.
Release Highlights:
Release Notes - 158.24
Control Panel User's Guide
These NVIDA Windows Vista drivers are under development. This version is not fully optimized for full 3D performance and may not include all available features available on different operating systems. NVIDIA, along with the industry, is continuing to update its Windows Vista drivers to ensure maximum performance on 3D applications and add support for features. These drivers are provided "AS IS." NVIDIA MAKES NO REPRESENTATIONS OR WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND WHATSOVER AS TO MERCHANTABILITY, COMPATABILITY, PERFORMANCE, APPLICATION OR FUNCTION, AND DISCLAIMS ALL SUCH WARRANTIES TO THE FULLEST EXTENT ALLOWED BY LAW.
Edit: They do not release beta drivers as an official driver release. You have to download the beta drivers specifically. You get this driver if you select GFX card > 8k Series > Windows Vista 32 bit. As anyone would when downloading the latest drivers. You have to get the beta onces from a dif. download, and they are clearly indicated as being the beta drivers. They even have a dif. version number.
Wish Darkfall would release.
Here are some of the issues that the 8k series is having with a variety of games. The following is just a FEW of the problems the card is currently having. Or more precisely the drivers. One of wich I myself am dealing with, and I don't even have Vista or an 8k. My media player will crash on occasion between videos. It's the card I'm running that keeps doing it, but I'm not blaming MS.
Here is something to consider. Nvidia is partnering with MS. They built a card around MS new OS. Much like ATI was baught up by AMD. The Nvidia Website is advertising Vista and is going to great lengths to do so (does MS own a portion of Nvidia? I wonder.) Nvidia is providing NO SUPPORT FOR VG.
I find it odd that a gfx card that can't run VG, a game that was originally financed by MS, a gfx card that is supporting and supported by MS isn't providing any support for VG. Call it a conspiracy theory, or you can call it big business. Either or works and fits
Edit: Most people dont' bother to look at this stuff when they download a new driver. Hell, most people don't think to even update thier drives untill they have a problem running something; hence the reason the fist thing you're told to do when you have a problem is update your drivers. I'm not suprised that people don't realise that the card they are using is giving them problems, not just the game.
I ask you again. You spend all this energy complaining about a game that cost 50$ out of the box and 15$ a month if you choose to continue playing, but you don't complain to the GPU manufacturer who charged you 400+$ for a gfx card that isn't even optimised to do what it's supposed to do. RUN 3D GAMES CORRECTLY.
You can get this information here: http://us.download.nvidia.com/Windows/158.24/158.24_ForceWare_Release_Notes.pdf
• Age of Conan–the latest patch for the game crashes the
driver.[304675]
• Rainbow Six: Vegas–some shadows do not render when when
antialiasing is enabled.[302344]
Lost Planet–game menu is corrupted.[304037]
World of Warcraft has low frame rates.[289014]
Battlefield 2142–the game has flickering textures when the user
attempts to switch to the desktop by pressing Alt+Tab.[284674]
GeForce 8800 GTX: Lost Planet–the driver crashes while playing the
game.[304441]
• GeForce 8800 GTX: Flight Simulator–the terrain changes to low
resolution when switching from Air Traffic?controlled to playercontrolled
airplane.[304840]
• GeForce 8800: City of Heroes–there are corrupted textures in certain
missions.[290659]
GeForce 8800 GTX: Star Wars: Republic Commando–there is texture
corruption on some of the game models. [300610]
GeForce 8800 GTX: Command & Conquer:Tiberium Wars–the game
crashes. [308248]
• GeForce 8800 GTX, GeForce 8600: Supreme Commander–the game
crashes when played with the highest settings.[306352]
GeForce 7 and 8 series: Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle?Earth
2–white pixels appear on the statue when antialiasing is
enabled.[271391]
GeForce 8600 GT/GTS: OpenGL SDK 10 sample ?Transform Feedback
Fractal? crashes on launch.[304162]
• GeFore 8600 GT/GTS: Nine Inch Nails–the game crashes when
starting to play chapter 10.[304701]
• GeForce 8600 GT/GTS: Chicken Little:Alien Invasion–the game does
not start.[304697]
GeForce 8600: Prince of Persia–half the screen turns black and the
other half turns white during resolution changes. [299484]
GeForce 6800 GT: Far Cry–the display occasionally turns blank after
switching to high resolution.[304310]
• GeForce 6600: Tiger Woods 2007–the game crashes when set to the
default settings. [299991]
• GeForce 6600: The Elder Scrolls 4:Oblivion – the display turns blank
when the game is played at 1920x1200 resolution.[289525]
• GeForce 6600: Stars Wars Battlefront2–blue?screen crash occurs when
High settings are used.[302213]
Wish Darkfall would release.
Every system runs WOW well because Blizzard designed it to run on a broad spectrum of hardware, smart strategy if you are trying to get a large subscription base and make a lot of money.....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
might i interject....
2.66 core 2 duo / intel mobo extreem edition something or other (dont have box anymore)
8800 gts gfg
4gig corsair xms2 ram
onboard sound
150g raptor hd
xp ser pack 2
im on max settings, everything but im on 4x aa... 35-40 in towns 50-75 in country
The game looks like a picture, just wish there was more people to play with
im sure there will be many that say there isnt a comp around that can do this but thats just b.s.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.
George Washington
I have not reviewed all the posts in this thread, so I do not know if anyone previously mentioned it. I recall late in beta one of the developers mentioned on the beta forums he had gone out to buy a retail 8800 series nVidia card as soon as they were released because despite his pleas (and usual accommodation by relevant companies), nVidia had not sent an engineering sample to Sigil so they could optimize VG for the new architecture.
Now I'm not using this as some overall excuse for sloppy programming and other obvious ingame problems, but given the circumstances I can see 8800 series cards suffering from additional problems in VG from both that and non-optimized drivers from nVidia. As I recall, new video card owners had their hopes of amazing performance increases in beta dashed to hell because all they got was a black screen.
Mirrim
Chanter, Spatalos Server